Future Coupe Plans

[usafajk610]

I'm looking at a few years out before I'll be able to order my coupe and start building, but I'm a planner. I like to know what I'm doing, when, and how.

Some background on me. I graduated from college in 2014 with a degree in accounting and then promptly enlisted in the Air Force a few months later. I wound up being in aircraft structural maintenance (sheet metal, tubing, paint, corrosion prevention) and did that until I separated in Feb of 2019. Any work done to our house has been done by me (after either looking up online best methods or talking to my dad or father-in-law) and I've taken apart, to one extent or another, every one of the 6 motorcycles I've owned along with customer motorcycles. I'm not afraid to take on things I've never done before, at least not without a little forethought. That being said, I do plan to enroll in the automotive program at the local technical college this fall after our move.

I want to keep the build simple enough. My current motorcycle is to blame for that with its electrical/computer issue it's had since day one. It spent almost 2 months consecutively at the dealership and I just recently picked it up because it's not fixed and we're moving.

I've got most everything figured out on what I want to do with the car. But powering it is where I'm kind of stuck. I spent about 6 months working as a motorcycle technician, but didn't get the time/experience to work on any engine rebuilds. So while I think I could save money going the rebuild route or piecing together a motor myself, I think that's out. So here is what I've got outlined so far and below that I'll have my things I'm debating.

65 Coupe complete kit
302/T-5 (of some kind whether 302/306) from blueprint, carbureted
solid rear axle (probably order when I get the kit)
optional rear brake kit from FFR
manual steering and brakes, clutch will depend on which blueprint option i choose.
wiper kit (in case I get caught in the rain)
side windows
Planning to bedline interior floor panels and do some sound/heat insulating
Might do the footbox vents, can always go without at first and decide later
Color will be Eastwood's Malibu Sunset Metallic over black primer (I'm a fan of orange, black primer will tone down the orange a little bit)
Wheels/tires are a future decision.
Kit will be built when I move and settle in GA, going to go the just register it route provided that's an option when I finish the car.

Otherwise that's really about it, going to do it pretty by the manual for now. Some things may change once I can actually see and handle things in the kit for myself.

The big debate really is how much motor do I really need. The 302 from BP only has 235 hp. The 306 seems like the best bang for the buck at 370 hp.
Is the 302 going to be too little for just cruising around?
Date nights with the wife?
Trips to visit family in Charlotte from Athens, GA area? (my dad has been wanting to build a FFR car for years but he's getting to the point he would settle for one of the new production cars from whoever).

I'm trying to be a little budget minded (though I don't have one yet I'm expecting I'll be $40-50K into the car) but avoid refurbishing anything if I don't have to. Can I save money piecing together a motor myself?

Any other planning help or criticisms are welcome. Just want to have as much information as possible so I can do the best I can when I get to build my coupe. I'm looking forward to getting to the end product, but the build is most what I'm looking forward to.

[David Williamson]

These cars are hot inside so AC would be a must have and I would add power steering. There are many posts on power steering here. Power from either engine will be lots for cruising but more is more fun.
David W

[usafajk610]

I've seen a lot of guys put AC in the cars and while it makes sense in the enclosed coupe, I don't plan to do that with my build. Sure the cars run hot and I'm in the south, but you get hot on an air cooled v-twin in July when you go for any kind of ride. In addition to maybe the footbox vents, I might do something fresh air from the front of the car. I saw someone's build on youtube who had done something similar in a Mk4.

I've never dealt with anything without power steering out side of SxS vehicles at the dealership. Standing still and trying to turn the wheel with aggressive offroad tires sucks, but even with a little movement, it's not bad.

So the 302 could be enough for what I'm looking for? It's about a $2k difference to get the 306/TKX but quite a bit more horsepower. 302 would be about 0.01 hp/lb and the 306 would be 0.15 hp/lb. My current motorcycle weighs in at about 840 lbs with 122 hp, so a very similar 0.14 hp/lb and it has some times activated the traction control on me on dry roads at temps above 70.

That being said, the two motors are closer in torque which is what gives it the get up and go. 315 vs 350. Plus gearing in the T-5 vs TKX is a little different and probably more favorable for the 302. Top speed would just be limited, which is fine as long as the car will do 70-75. I've been 100 mph on a motorcycle twice and thats enough and once in a car. It's not about speed for me, just the very lively feedback from the car/bike.

[edwardb]

You said help or criticisms are welcome. So here goes. 306 with 370 HP enough? Absolutely for the cruising you describe. T5 trans? Maybe OK if you don't push it too hard and make sure to use the world class version which is more robust. I'm a huge power steering advocate and you make the usual mistake (my opinion) of only talking about reduced effort. Power steering allows a more aggressive front end alignment which changes how it drives. The increased caster makes it center better and just be more relaxing and less twitchy. You'll get lots of opinions on this one, and I'd encourage to listen to those who have had both. I have. I'm also a big advocate of IRS. Agreed it's higher cost but there are creative ways to mitigate the cost especially when compared to the Moser solid axle option which isn't cheap.

My main comment though is I think you're making a big mistake not installing A/C. I would not build a Coupe without A/C. It’s loud (separate issue) and keeping everything enclosed helps. It would be hot even with the side windows open based on the windshield and rear hatch glass. A/C adds complexity and cost. I get it. But as a percentage of the overall build cost it's not that much and will change how you use and enjoy the car. Schemes to bring in fresh air aren't bad but wouldn't be the same.

My Coupe build thread is linked in my sig line below. Good luck.

[David Williamson]

I can tell you before I got my AC charged with side windows open on a 65 deg day in the sun shine it was hot and we have low humidity where I live. My car has insulation but still hot from the sun on the back window and with the air flow over the car very little air gets in the side windows. skipping the AC where you live would really limit how much you will drive the car.
David W

[usafajk610]

Edwardb-I've read through about 90% of your post. IRS is out the window, just too much for what I want to do, even if it rides nicer. Power steering may be something I decide in the future to add and I'm fine with going bare bones initially until I can add what I want. It's how I've done things with my motorcycles. I'll get the basic and then ride it for a while and decide what I want to change or add. the 306 from blue print comes with a TKX trans, I'm guessing a variant of the TKO? It shows as rated for more power than the standard T-5. It's a good bit more power but also about $2k more.

David-It's something I'd consider after a while with the car, but initially just won't be in the budget for me. Down the road it's possible.

I want to do the minimum I can get away with money wise up front. The work to change something later doesn't bother me, I like tinkering and not leaving something alone. Best bang for the buck engine/trans combo (likely the blueprint 306/tkx) and keep the rest to a minimum for now. My main reason for wanting a coupe over doing a MK4 was the roof and the seemingly bigger trunk space for rides to visit family 3 hrs away in Charlotte. Plus the roof, I could get the soft top for the MK4 after the fact once I've had the car a little bit, but overall cost ends up about equal. Trunk space seems limited without doing some sheet metal work (which is fine). So am I maybe after the wrong car? I'm sure the mk4 isn't any less hot than the coupe around the footbox but up top I'm sure it's like being back on a motorcycle.

[Jeff Kleiner]

You said help or criticisms are welcome. So here goes. 306 with 370 HP enough? Absolutely for the cruising you describe. T5 trans? Maybe OK if you don't push it too hard and make sure to use the world class version which is more robust. I'm a huge power steering advocate and you make the usual mistake (my opinion) of only talking about reduced effort. Power steering allows a more aggressive front end alignment which changes how it drives. The increased caster makes it center better and just be more relaxing and less twitchy. You'll get lots of opinions on this one, and I'd encourage to listen to those who have had both. I have. I'm also a big advocate of IRS. Agreed it's higher cost but there are creative ways to mitigate the cost especially when compared to the Moser solid axle option which isn't cheap.

My main comment though is I think you're making a big mistake not installing A/C. I would not build a Coupe without A/C. It’s loud (separate issue) and keeping everything enclosed helps. It would be hot even with the side windows open based on the windshield and rear hatch glass. A/C adds complexity and cost. I get it. But as a percentage of the overall build cost it's not that much and will change how you use and enjoy the car. Schemes to bring in fresh air aren't bad but wouldn't be the same.

My Coupe build thread is linked in my sig line below. Good luck.

Edwardb just saved me a lot of typing! He and I are both big cheerleaders for power steering---trust us it's not because of the steering effort it's for the driving benefits that come with the more agressive caster. Same for A/C---that big horizontal piece of glass in back makes it a really efficient solar heated greenhouse. The T-5 trans will be OK if you don't abuse it with powershifts...I've been running one in mine on sticky tires with a similar power level for 14 years and coming up on 30K miles without incident (and it's no secret that I'm not easy on it) HOWEVER with that said the scales could tip in the TKX's direction for the extra margin of capacity given the relatively small $ delta when you consider the grand scheme of the whole project. As far as ratios the difference between the T-5z' 2.95/1.94/1.34/ 1.00/.63 gear set and the 17765 version of the TKX's 2.87/1.89/1.28/1.00/.68 spread is negligible and would be virtually unnoticeable.

Good luck with the planning!

Jeff

[usafajk610]

Wife is telling me to go with power steering just for the sake of having it. I did some quick configuring of the kits, getting a rear end from Mosier through FFR on both a MK4 (no AC, power steering added) and a Coupe (AC and power steering added) and wheels/tires from FFR as well. It's about a $3000 difference (I'd put the same motor/trans in either car 306/TKX is probably the way to go) and for that I couldn't get the soft top for the MK4, which is $3600 if I recall correctly.

I may hate putting it in initially but AC and power steering may be the way I end up going. Despite living in the south, I hate the heat but never want to live where there's snow again (yeah February this year was brutal), and I don't usually do well with heat. So we just need to sell our house, pay some stuff down, get my lemon of a bike taken care of, and get settled in GA. Any other things I should watch out for?

[UpNorth]

About best bang for the buck; have you considered a 347 instead of a 302?
And seems like when resell time occurs (if ever) it sustains more value.
Just my 2 cents...

[usafajk610]

The 347 was my initial thought, but the 306 is a little cheaper and the 347 isn't that much more powerful. Motor could change by the time I get to that point, but going to do 306. Not looking for ridiculous performance, just enough. I think the 306 will be a good balance. I don't intend to resell the car once it's done. I've read a few threads about the titling process in Georgia and it's a pain. Either it will be easier by the time I get to that point, or my only option will be the form T-22B.

[Bob-STL]

AC is a must in the coupe. (Especially if you want date nights or plan on taking trips).

PS is really a must in the coupe if you're driving it for cruising purposes or as a pseudo-daily driver.

[TheMole]

In the beginning I was thinking along many of the same lines as you were (are). I also have a financially conservative mindset (being quite the scrooge outside of the build) and was initially thinking things like "No A/C, No P/S, No IRS" because "It's a sports car and dang it, I don't want to go off budget or get stuff I just don't need"....I was fortunate to read Edwardb's, JeffKleiner's and other posts fairly early on in the design/planning process that I believe nourished my outlook. I also will caution you regarding having a strict budget in mind (as I did) at the beginning. You might find that as the build goes your tastes change as you see just how fun and engaging this process is. For me, it's been a huge learning experience. I've changed my mind a dozen times from my original plan as I read other build threads during the project. Yes, sometimes it can be frustrating when you run into an issue or realize you made a choice that you regret, but in retrospect it has been a very enjoyable journey. The contacts and friendships you will make you definitely won't forget (I actually thought this part was BS marketing by FFR but it really is the best part of the build!).

Best of luck with your decisions and your build and continue to reach out to experts like you have in the above posts. You are embarking on something that will probably be significant in your life.

And most importantly, have fun!!!!

[usafajk610]

I may be willing to concede the AC and possibly PS, though I may still go manual initially. It's going to be an ever evolving thing likely. But I don't want to do the IRS. More than I want to spend time or money wise. The budget will likely be whatever I end up spending but I want to spend as little as I can and still be happy with the car. So if I expect to be $50k into the car and end up at $55k, so be it, as long as the wife doesn't kill me. I don't have a tendency, as my wife would agree, to spend too little on things. Unless it's something that doesn't matter.

If I get to a point where I have the car built and running reliably and don't need my truck any more, I'd consider getting rid of it and using the car as a daily. I only had a motorcycle for 1 1/2 yrs to get around. If I do get to that point and already did the manual rack I'd take the time to swap it out.

I would be interested in getting to check out a car in person. Anyone have a coupe relatively close to the Shreveport, LA area or near Athens, GA I could check out?

I've contemplated doing the keyless set up I've seen on a few cars. It's cool and a feature I don't have on my daily driver, 2020 Ranger. House is up on the market and biggest obstacle is going to be getting my motorcycle bought back. It's only been a few weeks, but I was expecting a 30-60 day timeline but it may end up more like 6 months. I said one way or another it would be the last motorcycle I owned, just expected I'd keep and ride it, but problems since day one and 54 days in the shop and it's still having an issue seems like it's going a different route.

[edwardb]

I may be willing to concede the AC and possibly PS, though I may still go manual initially. It's going to be an ever evolving thing likely. But I don't want to do the IRS. More than I want to spend time or money wise. The budget will likely be whatever I end up spending but I want to spend as little as I can and still be happy with the car. So if I expect to be $50k into the car and end up at $55k, so be it, as long as the wife doesn't kill me. I don't have a tendency, as my wife would agree, to spend too little on things. Unless it's something that doesn't matter.

If I get to a point where I have the car built and running reliably and don't need my truck any more, I'd consider getting rid of it and using the car as a daily. I only had a motorcycle for 1 1/2 yrs to get around. If I do get to that point and already did the manual rack I'd take the time to swap it out.

I would be interested in getting to check out a car in person. Anyone have a coupe relatively close to the Shreveport, LA area or near Athens, GA I could check out?

I've contemplated doing the keyless set up I've seen on a few cars. It's cool and a feature I don't have on my daily driver, 2020 Ranger. House is up on the market and biggest obstacle is going to be getting my motorcycle bought back. It's only been a few weeks, but I was expecting a 30-60 day timeline but it may end up more like 6 months. I said one way or another it would be the last motorcycle I owned, just expected I'd keep and ride it, but problems since day one and 54 days in the shop and it's still having an issue seems like it's going a different route.

While certainly not impossible to add power steering after the build is complete, it's a little more than just changing the steering rack. For hydraulic, there's also a pump to hang on the engine which can be a little interesting depending on the front accessory drive/timing cover/water pump setup. If you go with Blueprint they can set that up for you from the start. There's also hoses, reservoir, and the changes to your front end alignment. Which may/may not require some trimming on the upper control arms. Again, easy to do during the build. Another alternative is an electric setup on the steering shaft. Some have done it, but room in the Coupe is tight and again not so easy after the build is done. You'll get different opinions of the feel of electric vs. traditional hydraulic. Interesting you would consider keyless (north of $500 for a Digital Guard Dawg setup, which is probably the best and most reliable) but want to wait on power steering. Not a trade-off I would recommend. But your build. You received some great advice in a couple of the posts -- don't get too locked in until after the build is underway. Things have a way of changing. Again, good luck.

[usafajk610]

The build is completely up in the air right now. Keyless is just something kind of neat, was an option with my truck if I wanted to spend a few thousand more on a Lariat. Like I said, time needed to take stuff apart and change something later on doesn't bother me. I've gotten pretty lucky in the regard that before 30 I don't really need to work. My wife and I are both veterans and she works in IT remotely. So time is something I'll have.

It really hinges on if I win the lemon law case on my motorcycle. I might be able to do the car in 2 years if that happens before the end of this year. If it doesn't get bought back, car might not happen at all. I'm also considering if maybe a MK4 with a 97-04 donor would be a better route. Can you use newer mustang parts on the coupe as well or are you stuck with fox body components?

[John Dol]

Being on a budget I don’t know if you have considered the original approach of FFR and get yourself a well optioned Fox body mustang? Something with 5 lug, 306/347 engine etc. sell what you don’t need and make your money back.
I sold my leftovers for more then I paid for the car to start.
I second the power steering and AC options. Sitting in a seat enclosed by a car is not the same as riding a bike in warm weather. I still have to charge my AC but drove on some warm days last year without it and I know I wouldn’t get my wife to ride with me like that. Unless that’s your goal;)

John

[edwardb]

Can you use newer mustang parts on the coupe as well or are you stuck with fox body components?

The Roadster and the Coupe share many of the same parts. Suspensions components, fuel system, wheels, brakes, etc. Other than a big block, which won't fit in the Coupe, similar engine options. Fox body will have more parts that fit either. Only a handful of parts on the newer Mustangs. I haven't done any donor builds so far from an expert on the subject. But you can read up on either Roadster or Coupe and get an idea what might work.

[usafajk610]

The thing that has me torn about doing anything donor is the age of the fox body mustangs (as old or older than me) and availability of them. Most I've seen available, dare I say, are in a restored condition. Could I take the time to go through a donor car and pull things off and refinish/revamp to save money? Sure. But I don't know that that's the way I'd want to go. The MK4 is more tempting in this regard though since you can use a 97-04 donor. Slightly newer, much more available.

All things being equal I think for what I'd want out of the car I'd end up spending about just as much. So why not go with the one that is more aesthetically pleasing to me, the coupe, and seems to be a bit rarer out in the wild as far as completed kits. If I wasn't so interested in excited about the prospect and process of building the car, I could go out and buy a MK3 or MK4 complete for anywhere between $30-45K from what I've seen recently. On the high end, it could be the low end of what I'd spend building the car myself and get the joy (see frustration) of building it myself.

As I've said, I think I'll go with AC simply because I'm in the south and I don't do well with heat. Although I did adjust to the middle east rather quickly for the 6 1/2 months I spent out there. 120 degrees and 100% humidity where I was at. Power steering I'll have to look more into. The blueprint motors are only $100 extra (give or take) for one with a PS pump, what components does FFR not supply if you go PS in the kit?

Anyone within a day trips drive of Shreveport while I'm still in the area for me to check out a car, coupe or roadster? House spend about 8 hours with 8 different showings today and have had 3 or 4 offers, only one real serious at this point, so wish us luck.

[John Dol]

Don't forget you can also opt for electric power steering

[usafajk610]

Which one is easier to deal with? Which one winds up being cheaper? I think most modern cars are electric power steering. I know my 2018 Civic was. My Ranger is as well. I don't know that I can really tell a difference in the way one handles over another.

[usafajk610]

So I've come to a decision, the coupe is not going to be the car for me. I asked some folks in the MK4 area about experiences with the soft top and got some good information and advice. For 98% of the driving I'll end up doing, I don't need something with a roof. I'll be able to build the MK4 more reasonably investment wise, the wife likes the look of the roadster better, and if I save a little on the price of the kit that money can go elsewhere. So instead of just doing the 306, half that savings can go to getting the 347. I'll start a new thread with the plans for my MK4 build and see what kind of advice I get there. I'm sure power steering will be advised, but there's a part of me that still doesn't want to do it.

[UpNorth]

Good for you! Follow your instinct!

[freds]

So I've come to a decision, the coupe is not going to be the car for me. I asked some folks in the MK4 area about experiences with the soft top and got some good information and advice. For 98% of the driving I'll end up doing, I don't need something with a roof. I'll be able to build the MK4 more reasonably investment wise, the wife likes the look of the roadster better, and if I save a little on the price of the kit that money can go elsewhere. So instead of just doing the 306, half that savings can go to getting the 347. I'll start a new thread with the plans for my MK4 build and see what kind of advice I get there. I'm sure power steering will be advised, but there's a part of me that still doesn't want to do it.

I built mine without pwr strg.....A mistake! Parking without is a bear. I have just completed a retrofit electric system and have fallen in love with my car again. It was not a simple task.


152973

[Blueblood]

My coupe has a completion date of late January and I have changed my options once already upon hearing what the experienced owners have said. I am interested in the electric power steering. What brand and where can one find that?

[Suzie coupe]

I built mine without pwr strg.....A mistake! Parking without is a bear. I have just completed a retrofit electric system and have fallen in love with my car again. It was not a simple task.


152973

I’m also keen to hear more about the steering system you installed. I think I’d like to pursue that route as well.

[Skuzzy]

I plan on looking into this kit (https://epowersteering.com/purchase/product/universal-kit). It has an analog control for changing the amount of power applied to the steering. I'll replace that analog control with an electronic version linked to the speed of the car.

I ordered my Type 65 kit with power steering as a fallback.

[Suzie coupe]

I plan on looking into this kit (https://epowersteering.com/purchase/product/universal-kit). It has an analog control for changing the amount of power applied to the steering. I'll replace that analog control with an electronic version linked to the speed of the car.

I ordered my Type 65 kit with power steering as a fallback.

So you’re saying two step process? Where is the electronic control with speed input?

[freds]

I’m also keen to hear more about the steering system you installed. I think I’d like to pursue that route as well.

https://www.superatv.com/universal-power-steering-kit-380w

Not knowing the power required, I bought the 400W unit.
There is no speed input required, it is controlled entirely by the angular displacement across the internal torsion bar input input side and output side.
The control computer adjusts the power to try keep the torsional difference zero. Mimicking a direct link, but without effort from the steering wheel side. So I believe it is continuously adjusting power in real time. I'm impressed with it and love the result.
Fitting it into a completed 65 coupe was no simple matter. Figuring out how and where to install it early in the build might be easier (????), except that you don't have any idea about space and clearance without engine/pulleys, headers, alternator etc. So perhaps you might have to wait for a lot of stuff to be installed, before starting, if you go this route

[Skuzzy]

So you’re saying two step process? Where is the electronic control with speed input?


I'll be designing the electronic control to replace the analog pot. I will take the speed input from the Dakota Digital module I will be using, along with their gauges,