Design Model - O's - Feedback and Suggestions

[RodneyO]

Hi everyone,

I thought it would fun to start a thread where everyone can talk and may be focus on one model per thread. That way it makes it easy to track what people like or dislike about specific models, this would also help the FFR guys see all created comments in one place, any thoughts?

I have been a bit busy reading all the comments and feedback and I have made some adjustments based off of them. I feel so bad that I didn't check the width of my car after I doubled checked it in 3d space, I was about 6+ inches on each side. I will try to use this thread to post images or anything that I've done so far, and may be explain some of the thoughts that went in the back for designing certain elements on the car, but that will just make this first post very long =) and boring.

I'd rather show you this cool 3d viewer I put together to see the car, this 3d model has the width adjusted to the correct width, fixed the nose so it doesn't give the illusion that it is small, it also tries... to allow room for fatter tires, the stock 215 on WRXs would bug me way to much I want 255s in there :P. and just misc. fixes.

cheers and here is the link to the 3d Viewer and some renders that were done for FFR.

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/venom/viewer.jpg (http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/venom)
http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/venom/

I apologize in advanced, you will need to install the unity plugin when you first load it, and again I'm sorry because it isn't optimized so it may require a good video card.
55455546554755485549

[slopoke]

Someone did an alternative rendering of the nose (not sure which thread)... but what a difference it made. Not to take anything away from what you've done ... it just seemed to pull it all together. The 3D really puts it in a better perspective. How about a removable hard top or a coupe model. Did I that I like it? ...

[Benji]

The windscreen from the side view looks a little long? Is that just a perspective thing?

I guess it works on the scale model so probably just the perspective. I must admit I was never a fan of your design but the more I look at it in more detail, the more I like it and for FFR it's probably the easiest to implement as a topless car (with provisions for having the windows and targa to) and then offer the side windows and targa top at a later date for extra.

Also note that unless I've missed something, the side windows could actually wind down as well.

I think it's just the front that is holding people back, perhaps the rear a little as well, unfortunately I have no advice on how these could be redone in such a way that would be more appealing to the masses at the same time as working with the rest of your rest of your design and it all connecting.

I'm really liking it though, it's the unique aspect of it.

[bromikl]

I really like the idea of a separate thread for each design. Thanks O, for opening up your design to suggestions from the rest of us.

About your design, I'll take your word for it that the track width has been corrected. But you have since introduced other physical impossibilities (maybe I didn't see them before.) The tire size and brake rotors are the most glaring. Can we see some realistic proportions? Let's go with stock rims and tires, and leave the design able to handle your ideal tire size. Second, there is no room in your current version for wheel travel.

I'm a big fan of the concept, but let's put the "un-buildable" and "cartoon-ish" criticisms to rest.

[VTX]

I'm the one that did the alternate nose:

5550

It would be interesting to see someone take this concept and do multi-view drawings of it. I would, but I just don't have the time.

[Steve91T]

First of all, let me say that I would build that as it sits. One thing I'd like to see is a radiator exit in the hood. Especially with the design that you have in the hood, you'd probably be able to open it up without it being very noticeable.

I think I'd like to see it with less black plastic on the front and rear. Mostly the front though. It looks like it isn't finished. What if you took all the black out of the front, and then tweaked the design to make it look good again?

This one is probably my favorite.
Steve

[Steve91T]

I'm the one that did the alternate nose:

5550

It would be interesting to see someone take this concept and do multi-view drawings of it. I would, but I just don't have the time.

I think it's a step in the right direction, but that one needs help. It doesn't flow at all. Especially with the rear. Maybe a compromise? Somewhere between the original and this one?

[VTX]

Feel free to further modify it. I just spent about 15min in photoshop to rough that up. I probably wouldn't have the time to really spend time with it, but I'm hoping that someone else will.

[kach22i]

Hi everyone,

I thought it would fun to start a thread where everyone can talk and may be focus on one model per thread. That way it makes it easy to track what people like or dislike about specific models, this would also help the FFR guys see all created comments in one place, any thoughts?
This thread is a good idea, thank you for starting it.

The biggest criticisms have been it looks like a toy or a VW based kit car from the 1970's. If there is anything you can do to address these concerns without nurturing it, now would be the time to do it.

While you are in there:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-BlueSide-flipped.jpg

[Steve91T]

Feel free to further modify it. I just spent about 15min in photoshop to rough that up. I probably wouldn't have the time to really spend time with it, but I'm hoping that someone else will.

Nahh, I'd butcher it. I'll let someone else do it.

[BipDBo]

The hourglass shape looks to make for a cramped cockpit, much like the C3 Corvette. The C3 was maligned not just for it's 70's era engine, but also for being one of the largest Vettes, with the smallest interior. It also has very low door panels. This all makes for a car that you would not want to be in while in an accident, especially side impact. The NASCAR CoT has a chassis that has expanded dimensions in all directions to give as much crush zone as possible.

[Oppenheimer]

The biggest criticisms have been it looks like a toy or a VW based kit car from the 1970's. If there is anything you can do to address these concerns without nueturing it, now would be the time to do it.

Yes, that sums up my concerns. I don't mind a car that draws attention, but not if its because people are pointing and laughing. I don't want to drive around in a cartoon.

The other models FFR is working on may look tame to some, but you have to be able to 'see' what they are going to look like in full scale. In full scale I fear this design will look clownish.

[Steve91T]

I could be wrong, but I think it's going to look better in full size.

[dclin]

Yes, that sums up my concerns. I don't mind a car that draws attention, but not if its because people are pointing and laughing. I don't want to drive around in a cartoon.

The other models FFR is working on may look tame to some, but you have to be able to 'see' what they are going to look like in full scale. In full scale I fear this design will look clownish.

What you're alluding to is that those of us that prefer Rodney's design aren't able to envision anything beyond the model or concept renderings? I could easily say the same about the other models. Even with the details added to the Jim's design that was just posted, it still doesn't hide the fact there is little, cohesive design language; it's like vents and scoops that might be appealing/interesting to look at were lifted off different cars, and placed together on the model. All the elements look great in of themselves, but don't quite seem to work together somehow (as much as I would like).

I like Rodney's design for the same reason I like the KTM X-Bow. The body speaks to a singular purpose, and posses none of the me too styling that is all to prevalent in major manufacturers. The design carries throughout the car. My perception is that Jim's design was designed from 'details, out', whereas Rodney's design was from 'outwards, in'.

I will say this, however, the more I look at that front end, the more it needs to change. The 'blackout' area of the front really wasn't visible in the 'winners' presentation (the blue model version that was posted); I only saw the grill details recently posted from this link:

http://rodneyolmos.com/factoryfive/v2/index.php

It looks too much like a human face, and I hate it when designers apply too literally human/animal/female attributes to a design. That, I agree, is cheesy.

Rodney, could you play with VTX's design? I really like the direction he took the front end. Also, to clarify, those new renderings (besides the 3D viewer) are of the 'narrowed' version?

[dclin]

The hourglass shape looks to make for a cramped cockpit, much like the C3 Corvette. The C3 was maligned not just for it's 70's era engine, but also for being one of the largest Vettes, with the smallest interior. It also has very low door panels. This all makes for a car that you would not want to be in while in an accident, especially side impact. The NASCAR CoT has a chassis that has expanded dimensions in all directions to give as much crush zone as possible.

Heaven help all the Elise or Cobra (replica) owners, let alone motorcyclists like myself. I'm sure none of us would like to be hit from the side either. To insinuate that the other designs would afford any real, measurable protection is a bit of armchair engineering. I will make a honest statement; as much as I know the lengths F5 will go to their products safe, I rather be hit in the side of a production car, versus ANY kit car. F5, or any other kit car manufacturer, simply does not have the resources to conduct exhaustive collision tests like the big manufacturers do. When I sign up to build a kit car, I would imagine that be obvious, and accept the inherent risk. Or if I'm feeling really lucky, Ill just hop on my bike. :)

[PhyrraM]

...... When I sign up to build a kit car, ...... (I) accept the inherent risk....... :)

True.

I would go a step further and say that FFR can use this fact as an opportunity to do things that OEMs don't, or can no longer, do. Things like low window/beltlines that afford great visability for tire placement accuracy. Low(ish) and visually light front and rear facias.

Most of the designs are taking currently popular OEM trends and applying them (needlessly) to the 818. However, many of the OEM trends are dictated by requirements that the 818 simply does not have. Let's leverage the advantages of the format......

[RodneyO]

Also, to clarify, those new renderings (besides the 3D viewer) are of the 'narrowed' version?

No, those blue renders are the wide version. When I get a chance I will do new renders, but I wan to do all suggested edits before doing that. I will upload revisions to the 3d viewer as time goes on.

[dclin]

No, those blue renders are the wide version. When I get a chance I will do new renders, but I wan to do all suggested edits before doing that. I will upload revisions to the 3d viewer as time goes on.

Ok, sounds good.

Quick question for anybody - why exactly is the track width set to what F5 is specifying? Race homolgation reasons? Common dimensions for the ability to to interchange bodies? If it simply means having the additional cost of creating a front and rear subframe (and longer half shafts) to widen the pickup points of the suspension to keep Rodney's design, I'd gladly pay the $1-2k extra I would imagine it would cost.
:)

[PhyrraM]

...Quick question for anybody - why exactly is the track width set to what F5 is specifying? .... :)

Going way back on some reading, but there is a "golden ratio" between wheelbase and track width for race cars. I forget why the ratio exists or is regarded as optimum, but I do recall it was an important aspect of race car design.

[scartaan]

Rodney-
An inspired design! You appear to have worked out separate panels to allow production in color without any need to prep for paint etc. Love the VanDyke in the front giving a sophisticated male image. Could this be a faint homage to the D-Type Jaguar?

[Flamshackle]

Freakin love it Rodney! great work :D I would build this in a heart beat! Yours was my 2nd place choice just after Xabiers... But my wife likes yours best!

[mentatbashar]

The wheels you designed really compliments the body design. I especially like the hint of redline on there. Is that on the wheel or tire? I'd build this car as long as the wheels came with the kit too!

Well done!

[BipDBo]

Heaven help all the Elise or Cobra (replica) owners, let alone motorcyclists like myself. I'm sure none of us would like to be hit from the side either. To insinuate that the other designs would afford any real, measurable protection is a bit of armchair engineering. I will make a honest statement; as much as I know the lengths F5 will go to their products safe, I rather be hit in the side of a production car, versus ANY kit car. F5, or any other kit car manufacturer, simply does not have the resources to conduct exhaustive collision tests like the big manufacturers do. When I sign up to build a kit car, I would imagine that be obvious, and accept the inherent risk. Or if I'm feeling really lucky, Ill just hop on my bike. :)

True enough. Whenever I've asked the question about crash worthiness, I gotten a vague statement about racing standards, blah, blah. I'm not really buying it, and I'm not going to pretend that any kit car will be as safe as a tested production vehicle. I would like it to be as safe as possible, especially if it is to be raced. Simple common sense like maximizing cage dimensions around the occupants will work to that goal.

[apexanimal]

nb miata meets viper...

i still like it

[Nelff]

This car with the modified front end is what I want. Remember when Ford put out the Probe? The original name for the Probe was Mustang. Yeah, bland, boring and if Ford would have put the 'new' Mustang out it would have killed the brand. Dave keeps saying that he wants to set peoples hair on fire. This 818 body HAS to be sexy with a lot of POW! All of the mid-engined supercars have low sexy front ends. I keep seeing catfish mouth in the other designs. I don't want just some 'detail' here and there. I want curves, bulging fenders (not just flairs) a mean looking front end and a rear that throws up spray from a diffuser.

Putting all of these designs on a 360 viewable platform is the best ides that has come along...

and I still like this design with the revised nose....

[Flamshackle]

After looking at the 3D render alot (like 30mins of swinging the car around with my mouse) I LOVE IT!

I think this car is sensational and meets the requirements of Dave Smith to light my hair on fire. In the fleash it would look like a true (mini) supercar.

[flyboy2160]

I'm the one that did the alternate nose:

5550

......

I also like VTX's nose better than the original. I didn't see the original nose details until this thread-I didn't see them in the 1/4 scale reveal video. I don't care for the angry animal eyes look; the original upright blunt nose would probably look great without the angry eyes aspect, much like the old Plymouth Speedster concept car. But overall I still like this car the best. In the 1/4 scale reveal video this is a knockout. It looks better there than in any of the 2D sketches.

[kach22i]

I also like VTX's nose better than the original.
So do I, just thinking of keeping the headlight up higher might be a good thing, safety wise.

Playing around, smoothed out the hood crease, felt like it was hiding an engine. Put more paint up front, not so mask-like now.

Original "O":
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/O-BlueFront.jpg
Modified "O":
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/revised-O-BlueFront.jpg

[PhyrraM]

This design is getting better. However, the attempt at a super short front overhang (whick I like in theory) is making the nose too abruptly blunt. Some type of comprimise needs to be done here. I don't really have a problem with the "style", just the bluntness. (if that makes sense)

Also, why does the back end keep rising (side view) even after the crest of the sheel centerline? The back looks too heavy compared to the front. Tame down the Headrest fairings and the rear end can drop faster and look much lighter visually, resulting in better balance.

I like the low windowline, too many modern cars (and 818 designs) have super high beltlines and little tank style window slits. (think 300M ugliness)

I would like to see the 3D model interfaced with the prototype chassis and a so-called 90% male figure. Something about this design still seems off as far as being buildable and inhabitable at the same time, but it could just be my eyes.

Either way, this thread still has the Olmos design in 3rd place for me, but it IS looking more attractive than the original drawings.

[305mouse]

I don't like all the black plastic in the front. I like how Kach22i altered the front for the most part. I say make the whole front the same blue color and bring back the original grille, it looks like it's pissed at the road.

[scartaan]

Rodney-
I feel your design is brilliant. You might consider the next step, which would be production. How do you envision the integration of the roll bar? Would you consider making the rear window permanent to help control engine noise and back draft? One of the production problems is door fit which is why Jim Shenck made his door fit "inside" the front fender to make this easier. Could you make your door shorter so it did not involve the black area? Addressing some of these problems and even talking to Jim might lead to some minor changes in your design to increase "our" chances of being selected.

[kitcarj]

could we swap the nose for Shawn Whetstone's or the Vantage's front? Wish I was a whiz with photo editing software.

[dclin]

I'm the one that did the alternate nose:

5550

It would be interesting to see someone take this concept and do multi-view drawings of it. I would, but I just don't have the time.

Can somebody leave the center, leading edge of the 'hood' about where it is, and pull the headlights up and back a little bit? I'm thinking this will give it front a more traditional, wedge front - less of the bluntness that was mentioned

[dclin]

Going way back on some reading, but there is a "golden ratio" between wheelbase and track width for race cars. I forget why the ratio exists or is regarded as optimum, but I do recall it was an important aspect of race car design.

Ah, got it - thanks!

[rori]

I don't have anything to add other than that this is the kit that I want to build!

[Oppenheimer]

OK, so to each his own and all, but I really don't get what people like about this design. But it turns out there are so many of you that like it, and it was a contest winner. So its obviously got something going for it. People, normal people, really do like it.

But I'm just not seeing it. I'm trying to be open minded. So tell me what you like about it. I don't expect you to try to make me like it, just help me have respect for it. I'm not trying to start an argument, I sincerely want to know why so many like this design. I respect the opinion of many of you, so I want to respect your choice as well.

I don't have to like it to respect it. But I can't respect it if I don't know what's good about it. And right now I just don't know what's good about it. Help me see what you see.

[onyx_riddle]

OK, so to each his own and all, but I really don't get what people like about this design. But it turns out there are so many of you that like it, and it was a contest winner. So its obviously got something going for it. People, normal people, really do like it.

But I'm just not seeing it. I'm trying to be open minded. So tell me what you like about it. I don't expect you to try to make me like it, just help me have respect for it. I'm not trying to start an argument, I sincerely want to know why so many like this design. I respect the opinion of many of you, so I want to respect your choice as well.

I don't have to like it to respect it. But I can't respect it if I don't know what's good about it. And right now I just don't know what's good about it. Help me see what you see.


I think I know. It's a sort of sense of "rugged awesomeness". It has a radical design due to the sweeping body but the bubble people carriage. The front end looks like an evil star wars character with jack sparrow earrings and the style and flare of an Exige. The reason it works so well is, for one, it is an excellent execution. This took talent. Also, the overall look of the car doesn't reach for Ferrari elitism. It doesnt scream "I'm a Porsche". It looks like its gona tear you a new one. It's one if my top 3. The image if the clay model sucked. But the images on his website make this thing awesome.

[Flamshackle]

OK, so to each his own and all, but I really don't get what people like about this design. But it turns out there are so many of you that like it, and it was a contest winner. So its obviously got something going for it. People, normal people, really do like it.

But I'm just not seeing it. I'm trying to be open minded. So tell me what you like about it. I don't expect you to try to make me like it, just help me have respect for it. I'm not trying to start an argument, I sincerely want to know why so many like this design. I respect the opinion of many of you, so I want to respect your choice as well.

Well you must be partially blind to not see plainly how awesome this car looks ;)... have you checked out the 3D movable/changeable colour page?

For me its the wide stance (even once reduced as per Rodneys 3D animated page) hourglass shape, high rear arches (ala super hot Ferrari 458 Italia)
Super crisp lines as well as beautiful curves.

The only part I wish were better (and I have no idea quite how to change it) would be the look from directly in front. its face could do with surgery IMO. I absolutely love the rest...

The more I look at it the closer the gap between Xabiers car and this baby supercar look. So much so that its probably now tied for 1st place in my books nd I would happily build either now.

[crackedcornish]

anybody else notice this...if you do the 3d version in pink, the way the body creases on the hood are now, it makes it look like it's sticking its tongue out :p

Hood needs to be more concave/lower and vented.

I like the way the doors are on the blue stills, as apposed to the 3d version. Was anything else changed between the two (besides the width at the rear)?

I have a concern about the area around the back window/deck lid. With that high crease back there, it looks like it would hold water against the bottom of the back window if it were parked out in the rain...unless where the black meets the body color back there, is spaced to be a vent (can't really tell from the pics or 3d model)

Rear end might look better with a body colored bumper and perhaps the front end would too

...oh and the butt is a little high, reminds me of a bustle, would look better at the same height as the front fenders (which are a touch high as well)

other than that I like it

[shinn497]

First, it is original. People compare nouphone's to an aston martin or a maserati, xabier to a pininfarina design, and Jim's to Mr2/s200/hyundai. This really doesn't resemble anything other than itself.

It is aggressive, the flared out fenders, sweeping profile, little angles make for a car that screams performance.

It is elegant. There aren't fins out of the wazoo. In addition, there are no straight lines, or parts that jut out of nowhere. It is curvy, but not in too much of a european way.

I think the biggest schizm that is occurring ,due to olmos's design, is its uniqueness. Which kind of makes sense. People seem to want kit cars to be something they are not. They look and say, I want a ferrari, or a porsche. 3 of factory fives designs are replicas (replicas that are better performing and cheaper than their originals ironically ). The GTM is inspired by the GT40 . I think that people have similiar expectations from the 818. Even though its an original people people seem to want it to evoke a car that is more expensive and with more prestige. They fear that to not have something recognizable, is something laughable.


But I say be proud that its a kit car and an FFR. The beauty of such a car is that not everyone can own one, not because it requires money, but because it requires perserverance and dedication. If it is weird or laughed at than so be it. This car will have unlimited potential built on a rock solid foundation. I'd want that even if it looks like a giant bannana.

Also Olmos looks REALLY good with a spoiler and low-pro's

[Flamshackle]

...oh and the butt is a little high, reminds me of a bustle, would look better at the same height as the front fenders (which are a touch high as well)

other than that I like it

Changing the height of the rear would destroy the look of the car and muck up the roof line... Seriously just take a good look at the 458 Italia and see the design cues here... Rodneys desing has a certain look about it that i feel hinges on these high arches to pull off.

The things you can change on the design without it being detrimental to the overall image of this car are the fine details like lights, minor adjustments to front and rear openings, little line changes on bonnet ect. If Rodney started making wholesale changes to the arch heights and bonnet I rhink that the design style would start to unravel.

Stick with it Rodney! your design is the top equal most liked car so changes MUST remain in the finer details and not detract from what people actually drawn to in the first instance. Also like Xabiers model it really grows on you over time.

[bromikl]

Changing the height of the rear would destroy the look of the car and muck up the roof line... Seriously just take a good look at the 458 Italia and see the design cues here... Rodneys desing has a certain look about it that i feel hinges on these high arches to pull off.

The things you can change on the design without it being detrimental to the overall image of this car are the fine details like lights, minor adjustments to front and rear openings, little line changes on bonnet ect. If Rodney started making wholesale changes to the arch heights and bonnet I rhink that the design style would start to unravel.

Stick with it Rodney! your design is the top equal most liked car so changes MUST remain in the finer details and not detract from what people actually drawn to in the first instance. Also like Xabiers model it really grows on you over time.

+1

I didn't know how to say it, but you did fine. I wouldn't change anything but what is necessary to make a realistic and buildable car. I even love the rectangular brake duct openings. Why conform to what all the other cars do? There's no fun in that. O, please don't lower the tail. And if you can fit the roof under the hood, more the better - you did that on purpose, didn't you, you sly dog. :D

[Steve91T]

First, it is original. People compare nouphone's to an aston martin or a maserati, xabier to a pininfarina design, and Jim's to Mr2/s200/hyundai. This really doesn't resemble anything other than itself.

You mean MRS, not the MR2.

[crackedcornish]

Changing the height of the rear would destroy the look of the car and muck up the roof line... Seriously just take a good look at the 458 Italia and see the design cues here... Rodneys desing has a certain look about it that i feel hinges on these high arches to pull off.

The things you can change on the design without it being detrimental to the overall image of this car are the fine details like lights, minor adjustments to front and rear openings, little line changes on bonnet ect. If Rodney started making wholesale changes to the arch heights and bonnet I rhink that the design style would start to unravel.

Stick with it Rodney! your design is the top equal most liked car so changes MUST remain in the finer details and not detract from what people actually drawn to in the first instance. Also like Xabiers model it really grows on you over time.

he asked for suggestions..if you don't try things out how will you know how they will look?

after all he narrowed the rear track by a foot and the design doesn't seem the worse for it...please tell me why are you so adamant about these cars having their rear ends stuck up in the breeze? is it personal taste or is there some scientific facts behind this?? help me understand where you're coming from on this point.

[Draco-REX]

he asked for suggestions..if you don't try things out how will you know how they will look?

after all he narrowed the rear track by a foot and the design doesn't seem the worse for it...please tell me why are you so adamant about these cars having their rear ends stuck up in the breeze? is it personal taste or is there some scientific facts behind this?? help me understand where you're coming from on this point.
Usually, the upward rear is so that you can fit a taller diffuser under the rear of the car and generate more downforce.

I personally prefer an upward swept rear. A lot of downward trailing rears just look weak to me. :P

[crackedcornish]

Usually, the upward rear is so that you can fit a taller diffuser under the rear of the car and generate more downforce.

I personally prefer an upward swept rear. A lot of downward trailing rears just look weak to me. :P

at what speed does this downforce occur? will it be useable at speeds acceptable on public streets?

I don't care for downward sloping rears either but I do like cars that are just about level front to rear without this exaggerated visual wedge stuff

I like this one
http://www.totalcarmania.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Porsche-Carrera-GT-3.jpg

this one not so much
http://hd-wallpapers.dumbs.info/plog-content/images/wallpapers/transport-wallpaper/transports-wallpaper-lamborghini-diablo.jpg

[edluv1]

You mean MRS, not the MR2.

There was no MRS in the US.

[shinn497]

The MR2 released in the U.S.. The third generation is the MR2 spyder I.E. The MR-S...

Particulars particulars. Anyway you know what I mean.

[Draco-REX]

at what speed does this downforce occur? will it be useable at speeds acceptable on public streets?

I don't care for downward sloping rears either but I do like cars that are just about level front to rear without this exaggerated visual wedge stuff

I like this one
http://www.totalcarmania.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Porsche-Carrera-GT-3.jpg


Definitely not my favorite design. :P Just don't like the way it looks in the rear.

I much prefer a wedge to a half-baked loaf of bread. A car that curves up and then back down looks like the designers lost interest. I've never been a fan of Beetle or 911 styling (much the same), nor the BMW Z3, Lexus SC430, and others that slope downwards in the back. It's a nails-on-chalkboard thing to me. This car is supposed to look sporty, not camry.

"Speeds acceptable on public roads" is a poor argument so I'm going to ignore that; otherwise we should be limited to 65mph and just enough power to get us there. Remember, this roadster will become a track version. If FFR develops the roadster body into the track body, having allowances for aerodynamic aids is a good thing.

[RodneyO]

Rodney-
An inspired design! You appear to have worked out separate panels to allow production in color without any need to prep for paint etc. Love the VanDyke in the front giving a sophisticated male image. Could this be a faint homage to the D-Type Jaguar?

No specific car but mainly to that era of time, there were ton of rounded vents back then not many do it anymore so yes a bit.

Someone mentioned a while back that the car looked like an Mk4 ate a Camaro. And that one thought kept coming back as I was building the V2 front, if you look closely (which may be a bad thing or not) from the front, you will notice that the Color body part resembles the Hood of the Cobra, and some of the curves and headlights resemble the reptile as well. So just for fun I started referring the design as the Venom model, which comes after a Cobra bites you.. So first was the Cobra Design now the Venom ( Damn now I'm just sounding like an artist ).

So Next Steps and with and with all due respect and permission of FFR I will start some changes based of some of the current feedback

The list below will be the first I will tackle, I will have FFR decide if they want me to post new changes or not, so here is the list:

1. When I created the the design, I avoided reference because I didn't want it to look like anything else on the road, that's how the black exposed front bumper and rear bumper came about, I though I would apply this idea throughout the car, so the the top and sides needed more plastic,so Voila!
I will try and see what the car will look like with the plastic areas painted, and redesign flowing lines based off that, right now by design the bumper flow lines are different. In my thoughts, I'm a bit worried because that was the part that kept it original, however if I can incorporate a design that could allow you to have both a plastic or painted version, that would be a fantastic resolution!)

2. I will redesign the front a bit, from other artists friends I have, here in the forums and car fanatic friends, something has been bothering everyone about the front. I want to try a whole new approach here, there is one Idea I have that seems promising, but I will play with some of the suggested ones here.
Morra's design was awesome some have suggested for reference I will look at it for inspiration, VTX changes were fun I can see a bit what you are going after, I will play with that as well.

3. After I made the scale less wide, the butt seem to get a bit taller for me I will play with that area a bit without losing the essence it has.

4. I will reflow the lines a bit or better say, I will try and fine tune the lines, these can always be tuned for ever, you have to look at every angle of the car for the curves to feel just right, I don't think the lines on this car have reach their full potential, I have some really fun thoughts on this one.

5. I wish I could really test some real world problems, like suspension framework, etc, but I dont have access to those scales, so its all a ballpark at the moment, so I'll focus on the design, and hopefully FFR likes them =P. If I had direct shots from the side and front of the frame I could do some adjustments that will fit the chassis better and starting testing some real world scenarios.

6. I will start with those and focus on a Targa Top version for now.

7. Any other thoughts for now, this will keep me busy for a while and may not have updates for you guys for a while, let me know if would like more items added to this list.

8. oh yea, I think if the chassis got redesigned, this might make for a more appealing roof line, it feels way to high but safety is extremely important, I get curious about what FFR will do moving forward with that. ( This part has been the part that has made it most difficult to use as a rule)

cheers

p.s. Btw. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3959-Shawn-Whetstone-s-Design, this was one of my favorite designs when all submissions made it in.

and this one second5593 ( I would love to build this one in 3d someday, hmm..)
I have others I love or elements from them, Morra's was one of the other ones. and many more.

[scartaan]

Oppenheimer-
You asked what is appealing about O's design-there have been some excellent answers already, but let me add some more. Three of my favorite cars are the D-type Jag, the Lotus Exige, and especially the McLaren F1. All these cars are compact and curvacious. This is appealing and memorable to me and many others. Rodney has also developed a car which like the Elise is easily converted from coupe to roadster in a most elegant way. The front, back and roof "scoops" add character and strength to these areas and are easily incorporated into a fiberglass body. Vents could also be added along the sides of these front and rear scoops if needed to help the radiator or intercooler. Over all a brilliant design!

[Flamshackle]

he asked for suggestions..if you don't try things out how will you know how they will look?

Fair call. I guess if Rodney wanted to try it he could.

But there is a difference IMO between small details changing in an already VERY well liked design, and the profile being seriously altered. Your suggesting lowering the rear archs will modify the profile of the entire car which if you think it through would exaggerate the height of the already tall roof line.

Im all for suggesting changes where they will clean up small areas that are not ideal. Wholesale changes however wont be in keeping with the well thought out symmetry that has been created with the arches and high lines.


please tell me why are you so adamant about these cars having their rear ends stuck up in the breeze? is it personal taste or is there some scientific facts behind this?? help me understand where you're coming from on this point.

Many great super cars are designed like this because its an exotic look, many boast larger rear wheels to fill their bigger arch's and although the 818 will "not be in the same league" The designers are trying to create a very hot looking number and taking a design cue out of the super cars that are flamin hot is not a bad way to go about it.

Everything comes down to personal taste in the end but the vast majority like the car as is so I hope Rodney/Dave Smith dont end up throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water when it comes to changing the design.

Remember that exotic cars have exotic looks and they all grow on you over time. If FFR make this car something that is palatable to all then it wont "light anyone's hair on fire" which is the design look that FFR are going for.

[asamboer]

First, it is original. People compare nouphone's to an aston martin or a maserati, xabier to a pininfarina design, and Jim's to Mr2/s200/hyundai. This really doesn't resemble anything other than itself.

It is aggressive, the flared out fenders, sweeping profile, little angles make for a car that screams performance.

It is elegant. There aren't fins out of the wazoo. In addition, there are no straight lines, or parts that jut out of nowhere. It is curvy, but not in too much of a european way.

I think the biggest schizm that is occurring ,due to olmos's design, is its uniqueness. Which kind of makes sense. People seem to want kit cars to be something they are not. They look and say, I want a ferrari, or a porsche. 3 of factory fives designs are replicas (replicas that are better performing and cheaper than their originals ironically ). The GTM is inspired by the GT40 . I think that people have similiar expectations from the 818. Even though its an original people people seem to want it to evoke a car that is more expensive and with more prestige. They fear that to not have something recognizable, is something laughable.


But I say be proud that its a kit car and an FFR. The beauty of such a car is that not everyone can own one, not because it requires money, but because it requires perserverance and dedication. If it is weird or laughed at than so be it. This car will have unlimited potential built on a rock solid foundation. I'd want that even if it looks like a giant bannana.

Also Olmos looks REALLY good with a spoiler and low-pro's
I agree with your sentiments shinn497. You hit the nail on the head in regards to peoples’ expectation of what a kit car should be. Rodney's design is by far the most original and I think in the spirit of what the competition asked for. Does it need to be modified? Yes, but as long as it does not lose its unique character. I wish my design submission was more in Rodney’s direction. I opted for more classical and low cost design and so missed the mark with my design. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160&attachmentid=3784
Let’s hope Rodney’s design gets a chance to be made.

[adesilva]

That Skitso39 image that Rodney posted as one of his favorites is awesome. I never saw that one before. If you were able to take some cues from that front end and incorporate it into your design I feel it would remove a lot of the love hate you have received with your design. I think that one is the perfect level for being aggressive and looking very sexy.HOF

[kach22i]

...............and this one second5593 ( I would love to build this one in 3d someday, hmm..)
I have others I love or elements from them, Morra's was one of the other ones. and many more.
Is this from the design team from Greece?

If not it is similar, like this design a lot.

[bigugly27]

This is my favorite by far on the models released! Nothing else out there really like it. Don't get me wrong the other models look fine but they could blend into the crowd much easier. I say leave it mostly as it is, maybe some minor modifications but I like it as it stands! Really looking forward to see what FFR does with this project and I have full confidence in your team Dave. I know you guys won't release something unless it is top notch, my only piece of advice and it is probably not even needed. Go for it all the way and hold nothing back!

Next project I would like to see is a truck or SUV kit! I love the idea of Icon4x4(unfortunately not a kit and way expensive but wickedly engineered!) and the Rally Fighter(Freaking awesome), we need great companies to continue down these paths to provide something better than the commercially available meh!

Best Wishes,

Daniel

[Movieman]

I like the "Modified O"..Make the top detachable( one piece lift off, maybe an optional part so the track guys don't need to buy it ) and I think you have a winner that would suit all..
Track car, daily driver and with a engine change a high MPG car.
I also have to say that Dear Lord are you guys talented.
My hat is off to all who submitted entries.
Incredibly impressed by the talent here on this forum.

[Draco-REX]

I love this car. It's my #1 choice and I would buy it as the 818 in a second.

But I have concerns:

The two-tone body is one of my favorite features. But I see it as very expensive or even impossible in Gelcoat. I want to see the single-color renders (red or blue, not black) to see how it will look to a prospective builder who doesn't want to paint.

The wheels look too big. Donor wheels will be 25" in diameter and between 8 and 9 inches in width. If those wheels are too big, re-sizing them to the donor size might make the wheel arches too big. You might want to play with the proportions to see if the spirit of the design can be kept with donor wheels. As it is, going larger than the 25" OD would work against the car's performance.

Door handles, though cool in your design, might require expensive custom work. The 02-07 Impreza door handles, though large-ish, aren't that ugly. Maybe it would be interesting to see what they would look like on the doors.

Vents/intakes. There's a wide swing of opinion about these. Personally, I'd prefer it if X amount of air flows into the front of the car, then 110% X can flow out. Hood heat extractor vents (like the '65 coupe) are preferable as we don't want to push more air under the car than there already is. Also, don't forget that airflow should be directed through the stock intercooler as well. It'll be easier to grab that from air flowing over the decklid. You might also hide the intakes by widening the transition from black to bodycolor on the headrest fairings and turning the step into an intake. It's nearly there as-is.

Headlights. I loved the circular ones from the initial drawing. Since all of the designs so far have tossed the Subaru headlights, then sourcing a pair from another car is apparently ok. In that case, you might want to consider headlights from the new Camaro to recapture that look.

I like the leading edge of the hood line, myself. The design now looks like the car had a more conventional pointed nose but something cleanly chopped it off, exposing the car beneath. ANd that just looks badass IMO.

I also like the brake inlets and exhaust tips. This is another example of an element being carried throughout the car which makes it one cohesive design; something that a lot of other designs (not just the 818 models, but real cars too) lack. However, I see these being chopped from the production model early on. You might want to come up with simpler alternatives if that is the case.

Overall, I love it. My greatest worry about this design isn't whether or not it's possible to do, but whether it's possible in the budget. Coming up with a simplified and more budget-friendly version to present to FFR might be a good idea. You could always design optional "add-ons" that could be sold with the car to bring it back to your ideal design. Remember, the target is for a $9K *base* kit. There's no limit to options. And options would = profit for FFR.

[kitcarj]

If your car was too wide could you imagine what would have to be done to the rear of this car? Unlike yours, narrowing this one looks like it would take most of the character out of the rear.


and this one second5593 ( I would love to build this one in 3d someday, hmm..)
I have others I love or elements from them, Morra's was one of the other ones. and many more.

[crackedcornish]

Fair call. I guess if Rodney wanted to try it he could.

But there is a difference IMO between small details changing in an already VERY well liked design, and the profile being seriously altered. Your suggesting lowering the rear archs will modify the profile of the entire car which if you think it through would exaggerate the height of the already tall roof line.

Im all for suggesting changes where they will clean up small areas that are not ideal. Wholesale changes however wont be in keeping with the well thought out symmetry that has been created with the arches and high lines.



Many great super cars are designed like this because its an exotic look, many boast larger rear wheels to fill their bigger arch's and although the 818 will "not be in the same league" The designers are trying to create a very hot looking number and taking a design cue out of the super cars that are flamin hot is not a bad way to go about it.

Everything comes down to personal taste in the end but the vast majority like the car as is so I hope Rodney/Dave Smith dont end up throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water when it comes to changing the design.

Remember that exotic cars have exotic looks and they all grow on you over time. If FFR make this car something that is palatable to all then it wont "light anyone's hair on fire" which is the design look that FFR are going for.

thanks for taking the time to explain you point of view on some of these points...I think I can understand where you're at a bit better now.

rest assured I'm not suggesting that the design (especially the rear height thing) have wholesale changes...I'm just asking for a slight tweak here and there just to see how it affects the overall look of the car

[mentatbashar]

Rodney,

Would it be possible to put some panel lines on the model like Dave had done for the FFR model? Maybe this could be "phase 2" once you're happy with the body revisions.

Once again, well done!

[BipDBo]

It hink I know what this car really needs. Would it be possible to photoshop on a nice layer of dust, and a Mad Max style super charger and exhaust pipes sticking up out of the back? If it's not asking too much, could you also add a pair of machine guns to the front fenders? That'd be swell.

[dclin]

SEX.

http://rodneyolmos.com/factoryfive/v2/images/2.jpg

[BipDBo]

SEX.

http://rodneyolmos.com/factoryfive/v2/images/2.jpg

I think you meant to post this in the thread, "Name the next Factory 5 Challenge."

[dclin]

OK, so to each his own and all, but I really don't get what people like about this design. But it turns out there are so many of you that like it, and it was a contest winner. So its obviously got something going for it. People, normal people, really do like it.

But I'm just not seeing it. I'm trying to be open minded. So tell me what you like about it. I don't expect you to try to make me like it, just help me have respect for it. I'm not trying to start an argument, I sincerely want to know why so many like this design. I respect the opinion of many of you, so I want to respect your choice as well.

I don't have to like it to respect it. But I can't respect it if I don't know what's good about it. And right now I just don't know what's good about it. Help me see what you see.

LOL, what we all perceive as 'beautiful' is something that is unique to our own tastes, background, etc. You, preferring 'model X' over the Olmos design is no more wrong than anybody else preferring something different. I happen to think that Jessica Alba, bar none, is the most beautiful woman in the world. Others may disagree (though they'd be wrong lol!) :D

Having said that, from a technical standpoint, the Olmos design has a continuity of design character that starts at the front, and is consistent all the way to the very back. These snapshots of different elements of the design; though they are of different colors, they all clearly belong to the same car. Now do the same for the others.

Could the design be tweaked a little? Sure. I don't think any designer has ever said 'there is absolutely nothing I would change'.

[dclin]

OK, so to each his own and all, but I really don't get what people like about this design. But it turns out there are so many of you that like it, and it was a contest winner. So its obviously got something going for it. People, normal people, really do like it.

But I'm just not seeing it. I'm trying to be open minded. So tell me what you like about it. I don't expect you to try to make me like it, just help me have respect for it. I'm not trying to start an argument, I sincerely want to know why so many like this design. I respect the opinion of many of you, so I want to respect your choice as well.

I don't have to like it to respect it. But I can't respect it if I don't know what's good about it. And right now I just don't know what's good about it. Help me see what you see.

LOL, what we all perceive as 'beautiful' is something that is unique to our own tastes, background, etc. You, preferring 'model X' over the Olmos design is no more wrong than anybody else preferring something different. I happen to think that Jessica Alba, bar none, is the most beautiful woman in the world. Others may disagree (though they'd be wrong lol!) :D

Having said that, from a technical standpoint, the Olmos design has a continuity of design character that starts at the front, and is consistent all the way to the very back. These snapshots of different elements of the design; though they are of different colors, they all clearly belong to the same car. Now do the same for the others.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5616&d=1319831676

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5617&d=1319831677

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5618&d=1319831677

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5619&d=1319831677

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5620&d=1319831678

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5621&d=1319831678


Could the design be tweaked a little? Sure. I don't think any designer has ever said 'there is absolutely nothing I would change'.

[dclin]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5622&d=1319831679

[dclin]

i think you meant to post this in the thread, "name the next factory 5 challenge."

lol!

[Doc_FFR]

I miss the square mouth from before.

[mattster03]

This is now my favorite car as well, and I wouldn't change it a bit! It think my reason for loving it is the unique design as well... no one will ever confuse it as a big-production car with a body kit. I hope that Dave gives the appropriate chance for a design this great to be the sole body design for the car.

[flyboy2160]

i like the venom lines, especially the non-creased hood.

it looks like you could replace the pieces that fair-in the bases of the roll hoops with a single hoop-shaped piece that would form the aft mount for an x1/9 style removable hard top and for the rear window. if that top was 2 pieces, you might be able to stow it up front.

to close out the hard top version, the window upper line might have to go higher. for me the elise top/window upper line ruins the side lines of that car.

any chance you could add this stuff in 3D? if you don't want to, i can do it in solidworks without taking any credit from you.

flyboy steve

[RodneyO]

Hi everyone,

Been drawing a bit so I thought I would upload some work in progress. The front is something I have been focusing on, any thoughts?

I also have a 3d version I'm editing its coming along nicely Ill upload those soon.

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront1.jpg
http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2.jpg

[crackedcornish]

Hi everyone,

Been drawing a bit so I thought I would upload some work in progress. The front is something I have been focusing on, any thoughts?

I also have a 3d version I'm editing its coming along nicely Ill upload those soon.

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront1.jpg
http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2.jpg

I like the red one better. starting to look mean

how about putting a vent in the hood? by lowering the front edge of the "U" shaped crease in the center of the hood and making it into an exhaust vent it would look pretty neat and maybe help the aero

[Oppenheimer]

Wow, as someone that had been critical of this design, I'm liking these changes. I like the nose on the orange a lot more. And I really like how the black roof section is now flush with the colored body section where they meet. I also like how on the orange one the side window ends into the rear roof 'sail' panel with a nice curve, instead of angular as on blue.

I still don't like how, from certain angles, the way the top of the doors are so much lower than the fenders that it reminds of a dune buggy, or worse, a 70's kit car, but maybe in full scale this wouldn't be so bad.

What does it look like if you make roof panel body color? Some may not like that, but if it were an option...

[Niburu]

This design continues to grow on me the more I see it, part of that is being able to see the front and rear details abit more clearly now. In some of the early pics I honestly couldn't tell what was going on.
As to the above two picture variations, the red one is definitely the prettier and flows better.
That said, I like the blue one more, it has more of that "unique" vibe to it - I know when I blow by that guy in his brovette the reaction is going to be WTF was THAT!?!

[kach22i]

I like the red one better. starting to look mean

how about putting a vent in the hood? by lowering the front edge of the "U" shaped crease in the center of the hood and making it into an exhaust vent it would look pretty neat and maybe help the aero
Good suggestion.

Yes, this orange/red one is getting there, and in the fast lane too.

I would still like to see more of an indication of where the engine is. It's not looking both front and rear engined at the same time now. However it's not telegraphing where the power is either. A simple vertical slot opening (narrow) just aft of the door on the rear quarter panel should do the trick.

SEE IMAGE(s) BELOW
5739
5740

[GUNS]

Holy **** Rodney! I love them both. The blue one is unique and holds true to your original design, just executed much better. The orange one just looks pissed off! I'd take either one in a heart beat. I wasn't completely sold on your original design, but this is definitely my new favorite design. My Hair is officially on fire. Well done sir!

[Psay]

The orange one has completely blown me away. It is stunning.

Can't wait to see the 3D version

[BipDBo]

I like the recent modifications, but I prefer the blue one with the headlights, " down, in the black." I also like the hood vent, but I think it should follow the curve of the hood crease if possible.

Your original rendering was, by your aadmission 12" wider than the template, and it's obvious that you show wider tires. The new rendings look more narrow, but it looks like you just scaled the whole thing down in one dimension. If so, can you show us what happens when you put on stock wrx wheels at the specified track width of 58.5" front / 58.3" rear without making it more narrow at the doors?

[crackedcornish]

Good suggestion.

Yes, this orange/red one is getting there, and in the fast lane too.

I would still like to see more of an indication of where the engine is. It's not looking both front and rear engined at the same time now. However it's not telegraphing where the power is either. A simple vertical slot opening (narrow) just aft of the door on the rear quarter panel should do the trick.

SEE IMAGE(s) BELOW
5739
5740

can you do the hood scoop, but follow the curve of the crease of the original hood..so that the scoop is "U" shaped at the front instead of flat at the front?

[kach22i]

can you do the hood scoop, but follow the curve of the crease of the original hood..so that the scoop is "U" shaped at the front instead of flat at the front?
I don't have O's madd skills using programs, I'm using something called ACDsee which is no Photoshop.

Did my best, is this what you had in mind?
5746

[D2W]

Love the changes Rodney. I'm having a hard time deciding which one I like better. The headlights on the blue one could be off the shelf lights molded into the front valence. The headlights on the orange one flow great but they would be harder to get right. Are the headlights on the blue one high enough off the ground to pass inspection? I also like the hood vent Kach22i added, would look great with some louvres.

Rodney I think its great that you keep developing your design.

[crackedcornish]

I don't have O's madd skills using programs, I'm using something called ACDsee which is no Photoshop.

Did my best, is this what you had in mind?
5746

that's close enough to let me know I would like a hood scoop similar to that

thanks

[GUNS]

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront1.jpg
http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2.jpg

Quoted so I can see these on the 3rd page :).

[kach22i]

One more, even bolder, maybe even O will like this one.
5757

[crackedcornish]

One more, even bolder, maybe even O will like this one.
5757

better overall size wise, but a bit deep to my eye

this design has the potential to win me over from the X camp

[Doc_FFR]

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2.jpg

This one is genius! Show Dave now! This is the HoF.

[apexanimal]

^ agreed... i'm still a fan of the original, but that orange one is hawt...

[2KWIK4U]

Wow, I may change my mind on which one is my favorite, great job Rodney.

[Gummy]

@Olmos
Love the orange/red design, the headlights definitely bring out the Venom/Viper aspect of the car's original name. Keep up the good work, I look forward to seeing your 3D render of the orange/red design.

@Kach22i
Your last picture of the U-shape hoodscoop looks great. It plays very well with the whole Venom/Viper theme of the orange/red design. I am now very torn between Olmos's orange/red design, Whetstone's design, and Vman's Vantage!

[RodneyO]

Are the headlights on the blue one high enough off the ground to pass inspection?
Didn't know that there was a limit here, I'm going to look into it =), I will raise them up though,


Your original rendering was, by your aadmission 12" wider than the template, and it's obvious that you show wider tires. The new rendings look more narrow, but it looks like you just scaled the whole thing down in one dimension. If so, can you show us what happens when you put on stock wrx wheels at the specified track width of 58.5" front / 58.3" rear without making it more narrow at the doors?
When I built the original 3d model I used what was provided by FF as a template "guideline", the adjustments I have been making will start using real world scale tires, etc. Hopefully you will see this on the new 3d model soon.

One area of focus I have been putting efforts behind has been a way to be able to put away the Targa Top on the front. Someone in here mentioned the idea of splitting the Targa in half, that sounds like a good option, but I know some have requested to put a release vent on top of the hood, but that will not work if thats where the Targa goes. Another one are the side windows, since I have a very low side door the window is not able to travel as far down as it need it to, so I have stretch the door body down making and have actually move the line up a bit as well, this new changes in the 3d version now allow a window to fully come down.

Another is the blind spot, the hump style of design creates a big blind spot, the solution so far is working but is changing the design a bit, I'm trying not to change the original design to much, because it will loose its essence. Let's see other changes... I have a few more can't think of at the moment.. all of these fixes will be present in the 3d version.

Draco-REX - wrote
"Door handles, though cool in your design, might require expensive custom work. The 02-07 Impreza door handles, though large-ish, aren't that ugly. Maybe it would be interesting to see what they would look like on the doors."

I tried this it didn't look good =(, I'm gonna start hunting some that might work. thanks for the suggestion it was great, I will try and post images when i get a chance.


so here are some updates:

Thanks Kach22i for the edits you made, they really helped.

cheers,

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

[crackedcornish]

Didn't know that there was a limit here, I'm going to look into it =), I will raise them up though,

When I built the original 3d model I used what was provided by FF as a template "guideline", the adjustments I have been making will start using real world scale tires, etc. Hopefully you will see this on the new 3d model soon.

One area of focus I have been putting efforts behind has been a way to be able to put away the Targa Top on the front. Someone in here mentioned the idea of splitting the Targa in half, that sounds like a good option, but I know some have requested to put a release vent on top of the hood, but that will not work if thats where the Targa goes. Another one are the side windows, since I have a very low side door the window is not able to travel as far down as it need it to, so I have stretch the door body down making and have actually move the line up a bit as well, this new changes in the 3d version now allow a window to fully come down.

Another is the blind spot, the hump style of design creates a big blind spot, the solution so far is working but is changing the design a bit, I'm trying not to change the original design to much, because it will loose its essence. Let's see other changes... I have a few more can't think of at the moment.. all of these fixes will be present in the 3d version.

Draco-REX - wrote
"Door handles, though cool in your design, might require expensive custom work. The 02-07 Impreza door handles, though large-ish, aren't that ugly. Maybe it would be interesting to see what they would look like on the doors."

I tried this it didn't look good =(, I'm gonna start hunting some that might work. thanks for the suggestion it was great, I will try and post images when i get a chance.


so here are some updates:

Thanks Kach22i for the edits you made, they really helped.

cheers,

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

it's looking sweeter with every revision you make Rodney!

could a 2 piece top be able to be stored over the trans in the back?

if you raised the side view mirrors high onto the A pillar would that solve the blind spot caused by the rear fenders?

[adesilva]

wow... I will admit that I had pretty much ignored Rodneys model because I was not a fan of it but after looking at this orange version it is 1000x better than what I originally saw. This is so much more aggressive looking and it doesnt look as much like an alien vehicle but something I could actually picture on the road. Orange is also my favorite color so I have not been able to tell if that is swaying me a little as well haha... If FF had an orange mold for any of these cars id fall in love... sadly I dont expect it.. I am assuming we will get red as the base color.

[Doc_FFR]

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

You see the subtle snake head? Venom indeed! Excellent work.

[GUNS]

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

DO NOT CHANGE A THING! This looks amazing. Can't wait to see the 3D views.

[jdek]

Wow. This design started out far from my top 5, and only after it made the podium did it start to grow on me. But this.. changes everything. The "cartoon" is dead, long live the HoF!!

[kach22i]

This is excellent.

Can we see it soon with the top off and the windows rolled down?

What man doesn't like topless?

[Jeff Kleiner]

Can we see it soon with the top off and the windows rolled down?



Looks like the glass is taller than the doors are. How's that gonna' work out?

Jeff

[adesilva]

I am really interested in seeing what the revised tail end looks like. This design is coming along very nicely.

[Vman7]

Didn't know that there was a limit here, I'm going to look into it =), I will raise them up though,

Another is the blind spot, the hump style of design creates a big blind spot, the solution so far is working but is changing the design a bit, I'm trying not to change the original design to much, because it will loose its essence. Let's see other changes... I have a few more can't think of at the moment.. all of these fixes will be present in the 3d version.

I tried this it didn't look good =(, I'm gonna start hunting some that might work. thanks for the suggestion it was great, I will try and post images when i get a chance.


so here are some updates:

Thanks Kach22i for the edits you made, they really helped.

cheers,

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

When this car was 1st posted I liked the wide body look a lot, but the front just didn't work for me.

Now the front looks really good!! Great work Rodney :)

I could be a smart *** here and do what a lot of others do by saying it looks like..... but I won't

As far as the blind spot with the rear fenders, easy fix, put the side mirrors high on the front pillars.

The back is good, but the exhaust will most likely never happen. Also have to figure out a place for a Lic. Plate. I have an idea for you Rodney, maybe I'll do something with it tonight to help you along.

This car just went to the top of my list, I would say tough call between Rodney's and Xabiers now.

Again Great work Rodney! keep at it.

David

[flyboy2160]

...
One area of focus I have been putting efforts behind has been a way to be able to put away the Targa Top on the front. Someone in here mentioned the idea of splitting the Targa in half, that sounds like a good option, but I know some have requested to put a release vent on top of the hood, but that will not work if thats where the Targa goes. Another one are the side windows, since I have a very low side door the window is not able to travel as far down as it need it to, so I have stretch the door body down making and have actually move the line up a bit as well, this new changes in the 3d version now allow a window to fully come down.
....



i suggested the split targa and it still might fit up front if the radiator vent was way up front right behind the radiator and the 2 piece top stowed behind the vent. (or under it.)

please, please, please don't raise up the door upper line just so the rolled down window is fully enclosed. so what if a acouple of inches of glass is exposed? i fear your 3D coke bottle shape might be ruined.....but if your surfaces are parametric (they way they should be:p), you can go back and forth easily to show what happens.

i like the orange front best so far, except for the the double crease line in the hood. that middle creased area just busies up the front too much for me.

[David Hodgkins]

Rodney, can you raise the front splitter under the center inlet like the MKII GTM?

Have you changed the track yet?

Great work. I read every 818 thread, but mostly as a mod, and don't post much.

But I'm a definite fan of this design.

:)

[Nelff]

I'm really thinking that this design is maturing... starting to look exotic in a mean "I haven't seen this done before" kind of way...

[BrandonDrums]

Rodney, I'd write a longer post of congratulations but I need to douse the flames off my head. I might not sleep until Dave and the gang commit to at least making a scale model of this.

[Flamshackle]

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

THIS^ has just tipped my scales to LOVE your design Rodney :~) Xabiers was my fav but this is all kinds of awesome that totally blows my mind... Thoughts on it...

1)Bonnet vent is smart, looks great! and very functional

2) door height must not radically change IMO. This is one of the parts that beautifully excentuate the hour glass shape.

3) Start doing changes for function.
Bonnet vent was a good start but we will need real life exhaust options as well, mirrors will need moving and wheels/tires
Air intakes for intercooler needs?

Simply Amazing work and now my top pick by a mile!

[mattster03]

the model is looking great! I'm a big fan of either front setup. It would be a serious shame if this design doesn't get the attention for the final design of the 818 that it deserves!

[Steve91T]

This is absolutely my favorite now. I have always liked the design, but these changes are exactly what it needed. I really like the radiator exit in the hood along with the rear side vents. Very subtle, yet very functional.

I can't wait to hear what Dave has to say when he sees this!

Good work!
Steve

[Vman7]

Rodney, I added the mirror on the pillar and added Direct Air Intake for the engine.

Just an Idea.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5758&d=1320290871
5758

[Steve91T]

Rodney, I added the mirror on the pillar and added Direct Air Intake for the engine.

Just an Idea.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5758&d=1320290871
5758

What's wrong with the lower vents? I'm a huge fan of more air entering the engine bay, but those top vents don't flow.

[adesilva]

I am not so sure, I think it flows pretty well with that curve that Rodney added going towards the end of the car. I honestly didnt even notice the other vent before you mentioned it (due to being black on black)

[Best of the best]

Hmmmm...much improvement. But I still think it's to kiddie for my taste.

[305mouse]

WOW, this and Vman's Vantage are tied in my mind. Before this car was too cartoonish, now it's modern and unique. Can't wait till Monday following SEMA. I figure by then Dave can get caught up and post something.

[Vman7]

Here is an Idea for Exhaust (3" roughly), and at least here in the USA most states you have to have a Backup Light.

Since I don't know the scale of Rodney's, I just did a rough estimate on size.

The Lic. Plate is going to tough, best place might be in the black panel right above the lower mesh screen.
Hard to get the size right without really knowing the scale. If I knew the size of the tail lights I would have something to go by.

Remember I just did the front pic and rear pic fast, but you get the idea.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5768&d=1320293484
5768

[kitcarj]

This just went from the bottom of my list with the black car to my #1. WOW what a difference a day makes!!! From cartoon to supercar! If it can pass cars on the track that fast FF will rule the world, or at least the track!


Rodney, I added the mirror on the pillar and added Direct Air Intake for the engine.

Just an Idea.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5758&d=1320290871
5758

[Vman7]

More I look at the rear, I am thinking the Lic. Plate would probably look better in the screen mesh area just under the black panel, that way you can put a Lic. Plate light from right up under the black panel, if that makes sense.....lol

I wish I had SolidWorks, and knew how to use it.......tough doing everything in Photoshop CS3........I just can't compete with these people that can...just thinking out loud....lol

David

[adesilva]

Still not a big fan of the rear.. I am not sure it really flows well with the newly refined front end either.

Hopefully Rodney can put together something interesting. Vman is right about the Lic. Plate, reverse light, etc that would need to be taken care of.

[Steve91T]

That rear shot has me worried. It looks like you'd be shoulder to shoulder with your passenger. What do you think?

[PhyrraM]

Looking good Rodney. By far the most appealing version of the Venom yet for me. Styling-wise your starting to convert me, but I still have buildability doubts.

I like the low window and hood lines, but wish the rear visability would match. The new hood vent is killer, and if properly designed on the underside will not need to be larger. I liked your "inverted U" for the under-door filler panel better than the current version, but that's a minor nit-pick - either is fine.

Looking forward to the 3d render of the Roadster version to better evaluate how the new facias integrate with the whole design. Just a few shots look good, but the integration will tell a more complete story. Hopefully you can also do a "real" rendered version with true WRX tire sizes and a properly scaled driver. Of course, Kachi's inevitable template overlay will help address my buildability concern.

All-in-all....Bravo! You've turned a critic of your first version "Overdrawn, cartoon caracature, kids toy" into a sceptical fan. :)

[dclin]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5758&d=1320290871

*picks self off floor*

I think Jessica Alba broke into my house and sexually assaulted me for the past 7 hours.

PS I agree with Steve, the fender vent is not necessary. 'Cold' air can be pulled from just about anywhere; as long as as the intake is sectioned off from engine bay air, it should be fine. At first glance, i wasnt sure about the mirror being on the A-piller, but it makes sense functionally, and actually looks good to me there now too.

[Benji]

Good work Rodney, whilst I liked the rear before, I'm not sure how well it will flow with the new front (which I *really* like), maybe you have a plan? :)

[kach22i]

Rodney, I added the mirror on the pillar and added Direct Air Intake for the engine.

Just an Idea.
Ideas are always worth a study, this one shows us it can get too busy and chopped up in a hurry.

I'm not sure how many sizes (tall and wide) "O" played with to get the existing side vent size, but I think he nailed it, and it needs nothing else.

[kach22i]

Here is an Idea for Exhaust .................
Nice adaptation, I agree the plate over the mesh will work fine. I did similar in several of my designs.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-SCHEME7-REAR-yellow.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-Scheme1-rear.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/WEB-SCHEME6-REAR.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/WEB-Scheme4-rear.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/WEB-Scheme3-rear.jpg


Looks like the glass is taller than the doors are. How's that gonna' work out?

Jeff
Jeff, in an earlier post he claimed this has been fixed already. Like you, I'd like to see it myself, perhaps in a side elevation.

[bromikl]

Rodney:

NAILED IT!

[apexanimal]

i spy spoiler in there too ;)

[BrandonDrums]

I just wanted to re-iterate my love for the recent updates to Rodney's design. My hair is still burning, I think the car is the equivalent to using napalm gel as a hair styling agent.

Not only is Dave's goal to have a "light your hair on fire" design met with this, but I think it's as important if not more important to have the initial design for the 818 be from a design competition contestant. Not only for honoring the winners but the story alone is extremely press-worthy. Further, I think now during post design-competition time, I think the designers that stand by their design and don't give up are more deserving of the ultimate win of getting their work into production form.

Guys like Rodney, Vman, Nouphone (Especially Rodney and Vman) have been extremely active in the community constantly and very kindly listening to everyone, making tweaks and continuously working to make their cars better. That speaks to me volumes as a consumer. The same reason I enjoy FFR with Dave and the Gang being so good with the community and really keeping their ear to the ground for what their customers want, I think that spirit is an essential element to this car.

I hope FFR considers that story and spirit of never giving up in the end with this thing. That tenacity even after the competition has ended is the type of stuff that movies are made of and the type of warm fuzzy feeling I want to have in such a community. Kudos Kudos Kudos to these guys for that.

[adesilva]

I just wanted to re-iterate my love for the recent updates to Rodney's design. My hair is still burning, I think the car is the equivalent to using napalm gel as a hair styling agent.

Not only is Dave's goal to have a "light your hair on fire" design met with this, but I think it's as important if not more important to have the initial design for the 818 be from a design competition contestant. Not only for honoring the winners but the story alone is extremely press-worthy. Further, I think now during post design-competition time, I think the designers that stand by their design and don't give up are more deserving of the ultimate win of getting their work into production form.

Guys like Rodney, Vman, Nouphone (Especially Rodney and Vman) have been extremely active in the community constantly and very kindly listening to everyone, making tweaks and continuously working to make their cars better. That speaks to me volumes as a consumer. The same reason I enjoy FFR with Dave and the Gang being so good with the community and really keeping their ear to the ground for what their customers want, I think that spirit is an essential element to this car.

I hope FFR considers that story and spirit of never giving up in the end with this thing. That tenacity even after the competition has ended is the type of stuff that movies are made of and the type of warm fuzzy feeling I want to have in such a community. Kudos Kudos Kudos to these guys for that.

One thing that I am wondering about Rodneys idea is if he is going to be changing the rear end as well? I absolutely love the revised front (hated the original) but am still not a big fan of the rear. I am wondering at that point if Dave will be seeing it differently because it really is totally different from what got 2nd place in the contest

[keys2heaven]

I, for one, love love love the high and wide rear! The stance is fantastic in my opinion. And the orange and black concept.....Wow!, what a difference a few tweaks here and there can have on a design. I thought the design submitted for the competition was brilliant, but these tweaks are off the hook.

I would love to drive this as the roadster version, espeically if the gelcoat were in this color orange!

Fantastic job. Now, can you show us this as a 3D revolving model? :)

[kach22i]

This is a study to look at altering the low side window by raising it up. This may be watering down the original concept too far. That was not my intent, I'm just trying to mature the design and take some of the last objections away. What do you think? Is this going too far?

changed:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/VenomFront2b-high-sides.jpg
original:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/VenomFront2b.jpg

[adesilva]

interesting changes Kach22, I personally like it either way but your method may make more sense in reality. I am not sure we would be able to have roll down windows in his original swooping door.

[BrandonDrums]

Long post



The two-tone body is one of my favorite features. But I see it as very expensive or even impossible in Gelcoat. I want to see the single-color renders (red or blue, not black) to see how it will look to a prospective builder who doesn't want to paint.

I imagine having black panels would make the no-paint gelcoat panels easier if they were to offer multiple color options. The black portions stay black reducing the number of panels needed to be gel coated or at least gel coated a different color at the factory.



The wheels look too big. Donor wheels will be 25" in diameter and between 8 and 9 inches in width. If those wheels are too big, re-sizing them to the donor size might make the wheel arches too big. You might want to play with the proportions to see if the spirit of the design can be kept with donor wheels. As it is, going larger than the 25" OD would work against the car's performance.

True but I like the idea of having room for wide wheels personally. One of the initial concerns many of us had before the design competition started was that the chassis having a more narrow track in the rear would make for a design template that limited how wide of wheels could be but out back. Having extra room back there might make donor wheels look wimpy but a simple addition of a decent size wheel spacer could fix that in a jiffy.



Door handles, though cool in your design, might require expensive custom work. The 02-07 Impreza door handles, though large-ish, aren't that ugly. Maybe it would be interesting to see what they would look like on the doors.

Personally, I like the simple latches the '65 roadster has and something similar would be great on the 818. Integrating traditional handles on a door as light as this thing is bound to be is overkill. The only thing is if the car ends up having glass windows, we'll need a way to open from the outside but I think the latches from the '65 FFR could easily be adapted to have a key hole and a very basic handle on the outside to operate the interior latch. The '65 doesn't even have locks on the doors and you always open from the inside. The same door latches used on the '65 have a hole for a square rod that can easily go through the door to a handle with a simple locking mechanism as you can see in this pic

5773



Vents/intakes. There's a wide swing of opinion about these. Personally, I'd prefer it if X amount of air flows into the front of the car, then 110% X can flow out. Hood heat extractor vents (like the '65 coupe) are preferable as we don't want to push more air under the car than there already is. Also, don't forget that airflow should be directed through the stock intercooler as well. It'll be easier to grab that from air flowing over the decklid. You might also hide the intakes by widening the transition from black to bodycolor on the headrest fairings and turning the step into an intake. It's nearly there as-is.

I agree with the above except it will completely cut in to the only potential storage space the car has. There might not be a choice but since there's a bar between the seats coming from the back, the idea of storing a targa top in the cabin behind the seats is out, I'm afraid the hood vent would eliminate that possibility along with the chance of having room for a couple overnight bags.




Overall, I love it. My greatest worry about this design isn't whether or not it's possible to do, but whether it's possible in the budget. Coming up with a simplified and more budget-friendly version to present to FFR might be a good idea. You could always design optional "add-ons" that could be sold with the car to bring it back to your ideal design. Remember, the target is for a $9K *base* kit. There's no limit to options. And options would = profit for FFR.

I think the design would be produceable in the budget as a roadster. Some of the more complex panels actually could be made with injection plastic molds as opposed to fiberglass if that made them cheaper, it would eliminate the need to have those panels gel coated giving less painted area. Also, the guys who made the CAD and then scale models of the 818 winners suggested having many, smaller panels instead of the traditional FFR large nearly whole-body shell for the 818 which would allow for more complex angles but would add seams and complexity to the build. I think smaller panels would actually make the build easier as you can adjust each panel to line up right vs. struggling with the entire car trying to line up the body. For example, my bud's '65 roadster's body is actually a good bit off center, the left front wheel arch is about 1/2'' over the tire, the other side has the tire about 1/2'' outside of the wheel arch. It's hard to tell but after struggling to get it to line up right it just got left. Multiple panels would allow one to fix individual sections instead of taking the whole thing off which is a 2 or 3 man job and virtually impossible to locate the parts that make the fit off.

[BrandonDrums]

This is a study to look at altering the low side window by raising it up. This may be watering down the original concept too far. That was not my intent, I'm just trying to mature the design and take some of the last objections away. What do you think? Is this going too far?

changed:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/VenomFront2b-high-sides.jpg
original:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/VenomFront2b.jpg

Nice, I think the lines on this design also do a good job of giving the aggressive wide look and enough room to make the cabin even wider if need be. While we're considering the side window line, we should also consider ways to widen the cabin just a tad.

You can see the panel seam drawn from the top of the door handle that curves up around the back, the cabin could start at that line which would mean a wider windscreen but I am a little concerned with the possibility of the windows running smack-dab into the shoulder supports on a racing seat. Modern full-back street seats have trouble fitting into the '65 roadster and I imagine it would be just as if not more difficult to fit them in this car.

[BipDBo]

This is a study to look at altering the low side window by raising it up. This may be watering down the original concept too far. That was not my intent, I'm just trying to mature the design and take some of the last objections away. What do you think? Is this going too far?

changed:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/VenomFront2b-high-sides.jpg
original:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/VenomFront2b.jpg

I much prefer this look. The dune buggy look is gone and replaced with a more agrressive chop-top look, but low curve is retained with the crease. I also like the higher door for practical considerations. In competition for my favor, the Olmos design was 2nd, with Nouphne in a distant leed. It is now a very close race.

I know that this car is designed as a coupe, but I think it would make a better roadster with a removeable soft top, which would be lighter and easier to store than a hard targa. I also doubt heavily that an 1800 lb car will have roll-up windows. I'm thinking solid roof frame covered with fabric; like a Jeep, but with curves.

My vote for the headlights is still "down in the black" as you showed with the blue sketch. It gives the car more attitude and less of a mainstream look. Also, down in the black, they could just be projector lamps, without cheap looking plastic covers, and they would be more protected from UV.

[bbjones121]

I love it!! The only part of the design i didn't like was the front end. This looks perfect.

[ElderDragon]

I love the orange one!!! I already like the Olmos design before this but I did have some reservations about the bluntness of the front. This change has dramatically improved what was already my favorite of the modelled designs! I would buy this car in a heartbeat!

One suggestion I would make would be that instead of making the central bulge the radiator exit, make the black areas behind the front wheels the exit. This will help fill in the low pressure area behind the wheels thereby reducing drag and also allow for a storage space in the front if desired.

[Steve91T]

I like the higher door. That was the ONLY thing that I didn't like, and that's also what gave it the cartoon look.

[305mouse]

I don't like the revised doorline. I don't think it had a dune buggy look. just my .02

[mentatbashar]

Hi everyone,

Been drawing a bit so I thought I would upload some work in progress. The front is something I have been focusing on, any thoughts?

I also have a 3d version I'm editing its coming along nicely Ill upload those soon.

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront1.jpg
http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2.jpg

Need it, want it, got to have it, build it, ship it... today! :D

[Steve91T]

What about splitting the difference and seeing what that looks like?

[ElderDragon]

On the issue of the rear blind spot, why not do what the C4 Corvette did and make the bodywork in the rear out of glass in the sight line out of glass? This is really the only solution that results in full aerodynamic bodywork with excellent rear visibility. I own a C4 Corvette and it has the best visibility of any car I have ever driven with the exception of a convertible with the top down.

On board storage of the targa top is really important as well. The front seems like the best place but that requires the radiator exit to be to the rear of the front wheels which may interfere with the passenger compartment. The other option would be to move the radiator to the rear, which would definitely give the most front storage.

The other option would be in the rear above the engine, but this seems like it would likely interfere with a bunch of stuff.

[Steve91T]

On the issue of the rear blind spot, why not do what the C4 Corvette did and make the bodywork in the rear out of glass in the sight line out of glass? This is really the only solution that results in full aerodynamic bodywork with excellent rear visibility. I own a C4 Corvette and it has the best visibility of any car I have ever driven with the exception of a convertible with the top down.

On board storage of the targa top is really important as well. The front seems like the best place but that requires the radiator exit to be to the rear of the front wheels which may interfere with the passenger compartment. The other option would be to move the radiator to the rear, which would definitely give the most front storage.

The other option would be in the rear above the engine, but this seems like it would likely interfere with a bunch of stuff.

Glass is heavy and expensive.

I agree that the rad. exit behind the wheels will take up lots of room. But there is absolutely no room to put it in the rear of the car. Mounting it on top of the engine, which already has the IC there, would never work. There's no way to get enough air through both the IC and rad to cool everything properly.

I'm sure there will be a way to put the rad up front, exiting through the hood, and still have a small space for storage.

Steve

[Oppenheimer]

I much prefer this look. The dune buggy look is gone and replaced with a more agrressive chop-top look...

+1.

[legacy_y_tu]

Wow! What a change. I was definitely not a fan of the original design but this has been tweaked beautifully!! Love it. Orange and black scheme rocks too.

[Oppenheimer]

I love Orange & Black (car I have now is that scheme) But can someone try making the roof color match the body? Wondering what that will look like.

Kach, if you are able to try this, could you do it on your revised door version?

[kach22i]

Kach, if you are able to try this, could you do it on your revised door version?
I have to get some real work done, so not today.

Here is my last study for today, looks like enough trunk room to me.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OVERLAY-818-FRAME-SEMA.jpg

[adesilva]

I love Orange & Black (car I have now is that scheme) But can someone try making the roof color match the body? Wondering what that will look like.

Kach, if you are able to try this, could you do it on your revised door version?

Agreed, if people are looking for a more mature look having the roof match the body would go a long way towards that look. ( I think he also did the black roof to give a look of how a soft top would look) Unless it is carbon fiber I dont think a black roof will look that great or be seen as "mature". It is more of a young person look that I have ever seen have the black roof.

[PhyrraM]

Downpipe and exhaust are not installed, so they will eat some of the lower area passenger side trunk, but there should still be full width available in the upper half of the trunk area.

[BrandonDrums]

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OVERLAY-818-FRAME-SEMA.jpg

This is funny to me, out of all of the SEMA pictures NONE of the 3 design competition scale models have appeared and there's Jim's front and center. Hope I'm not reading into anything but it's like the other's dont exist anymore. I really wanted to hear what the open public thought about the different designs at SEMA....

[adesilva]

I believe Dave actually mentioned before going to Sema that they would only be bringing Jims model so I wasnt surprised.

[D2W]

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OVERLAY-818-FRAME-SEMA.jpg

This is funny to me, out of all of the SEMA pictures NONE of the 3 design competition scale models have appeared and there's Jim's front and center. Hope I'm not reading into anything but it's like the other's dont exist anymore. I really wanted to hear what the open public thought about the different designs at SEMA....

I don't think they even took the other designs to SEMA. I would have wanted to hear what the public thought as well. Beerbaron, you saw the models in person, were the others not up to par for presentation?

[BipDBo]

I tried out the 3d viewer for the first time. Looking at it that way really reinforces my preference for the higher door. This will be a small car, so in real life, that door will be super low, silly looking low. Such a low door would not only look weird, but also give me the heebie geebies while passing a semi. I am not a fan of the dent in the roof. It seems to "overplay" the creases. The rear glass seems unnessesary. I'd change it from sloped to vertical to save weight and keep solar heating down.

[bbjones121]

I thought Dave mentioned the other models would not be going because of the lack of finalized details. FFR needs to show people a model that is complete with details, not one that is incomplete. I would assume this had a lot to do with the negative comments with regard to the lackluster first pics and the significant improvement with the addition of detail to jims design.

[ElderDragon]

It does look like the rear is the best place for the trunk and you might be able to fit a targa top in there, especially if it was a two piece or folding design.
For a rear radiator, it would have to be two piece and in the diagonal space in front of the rear wheels.

With regard the cost and expense of glass, a coupe is going to have a rear window so it shouldn't be more expensive to make it a bit bigger to wrap around and down to the body. It will be a bit heavier though. Perhaps the rear window could be plastic with an integral support structure (for instance over-molded body material around the outer edge with an integral hinge and latch) to avoid the rivet problems of the plastic window of the Type 65.

[olpro]

I believe Dave actually mentioned before going to Sema that they would only be bringing Jims model so I wasnt surprised.
Originally, Dave said he would take ALL the scale models to SEMA, to judge the reaction to them. That did not happen and you can't blame people for reading into this choice (of taking only Jim's model).

[olpro]

It is interesting to see the modifications that have been made to this design, by Rodney and others.
Personally I am holding any judgments on seeing a lot more in different views, etc. before declaring that this is the front runner. Showing a hot front end 3/4 view doesn't prove anything, even though there is great improvement in front end graphics.
The higher, stiffer belt line by Kach22i is interesting but disturbs me because it changes the entire DNA of this curvy, loopy design. Personally I like it better but it does redefine the whole direction.

All in all, these are the kind of changes that one would see designers making in a real studio environment. The designs evolve and generally improve (at least until the development engineers start to come in with their demands). I have yet to see an equivalent effort on any of the others by the FFR team, except on the silver model which has so far to go to meet even minimal standards.

[Psay]

This is a study to look at altering the low side window by raising it up. This may be watering down the original concept too far. That was not my intent, I'm just trying to mature the design and take some of the last objections away. What do you think? Is this going too far?

changed:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/VenomFront2b-high-sides.jpg
original:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/VenomFront2b.jpg


I prefer the low side windows from an aesthetic point of view, it give this car a unique identity.

From the 3/4 view that we have this looks as close to perfection as I have ever seen in a car design (it is the desktop image on my pc so I can keep looking at it). It will be interesting to see the 3D views and how the rear works.

From the models displayed by FFR this was my favourite by far. It will be interesting to see what happens to the other designs if they get similar treatment.

You have done an outstanding job with this Rodney.

[kitcarj]

Without the new front end I don't like the design at all but I also think the uptick of the black section under the back of the doors is a very important change (instead of the rounded down look it had before)

[ElderDragon]

On the subject of rear visiblity and my suggestion to make a full wrap around rear window (basically glass from the roll hoop back), I did some calculations regarding the rear window and it shouldn't make that much of a difference. Here is what I calculate:

Glass area for best visibility = 800 to 1000 in^2 (I measured 800 from my own design contest entry which specifically has a large rear window in the style of a C4/C6 but with a bit more taper for aero and weight reasons).

Density of SMC = .061 lb/in^3
Density of glass = .094 lb/in^3
Typical window glass thickness = .25 in
Typical SMC thickness = .125 in (assumed)

Glass weight = 18.8 to 23.5 lbf
SMC weight = 6.1 to 7.6 lbf

So if we go from a maximum rear window to no rear window, the difference is 12.7 to 15.9 lbf. I think most people want at least some rear window on a coupe, so in reality the difference between a full rear window and a half rear window is only about 6 to 8 lbs.

Excellent rear visibility is definitely worth 6 to 8 lbs to me for a combination street and track car. Minimum weight variants could have a plastic rear window (track biased coupe), no rear window (roadster) or no rear window and SMC in place (track coupe).

[Flashburn]

cheers,

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

Wow, somebody dial 911 and grab me a fire extinguisher because my head just got bar-b-Q'd.

[Draco-REX]

Love the new redesign. I'd buy either car.

The addition of the vents, specifically the hood vent, really make it great looking. Not too many, not too few. THough the hood vent might need to be kinda deep at the leading edge. The exit vent should always be larger than the entry intake.

As far as windows, if this will be a targa, you might think about designing a removable upper window and have a smaller roll-down be permanent; ala the Subaru SVX, Delorean, and Lamborghini Countach. Except the upper, non-retractable, portion of the wide window could be removed with the top. (not as one piece, but as separate pieces that could be tucked under the targa when it is stored.

Top storage is difficult. Personally, I'm willing to leave the targa (and windows) at home. But the 818 won't be a year-round daily for me. I don't think there would be much room for anything more than a golf bag over the transmission, and even less up front (don't forget the radiator, front suspension, and footboxes). The only solution might be to have a hard roof that can be fitted in the winter and a canvas stow-able roof for sudden showers in the summer. If designed that way from the get-go, it should be easier to set up than the 40-minute roof on the FFR Roadster.

Weight can be kept down by minimizing the actual glass. The rear window sees much less abuse than the windshield or even side windows, so it can be lexan. On the half-window design, the uppwer portions can be lexan while the roll-up is glass (so it won't scratch when being rolled up and down).

I really love these designs. I'd be happy to own either and I really hope FFR builds them. I wish, I wish, they will choose it first. But failing that, hopefully second.

[slopoke]

Rodney's and Vman's designs are really .... I think it's getting awfully warm in here ....

[GUNS]

I just wanted to re-iterate my love for the recent updates to Rodney's design. My hair is still burning, I think the car is the equivalent to using napalm gel as a hair styling agent.

Not only is Dave's goal to have a "light your hair on fire" design met with this, but I think it's as important if not more important to have the initial design for the 818 be from a design competition contestant. Not only for honoring the winners but the story alone is extremely press-worthy. Further, I think now during post design-competition time, I think the designers that stand by their design and don't give up are more deserving of the ultimate win of getting their work into production form.

Guys like Rodney, Vman, Nouphone (Especially Rodney and Vman) have been extremely active in the community constantly and very kindly listening to everyone, making tweaks and continuously working to make their cars better. That speaks to me volumes as a consumer. The same reason I enjoy FFR with Dave and the Gang being so good with the community and really keeping their ear to the ground for what their customers want, I think that spirit is an essential element to this car.

I hope FFR considers that story and spirit of never giving up in the end with this thing. That tenacity even after the competition has ended is the type of stuff that movies are made of and the type of warm fuzzy feeling I want to have in such a community. Kudos Kudos Kudos to these guys for that.

Well said.

[GUNS]

Rodney, where's the 3D spinny thing for this design? Don't you know we are all waiting? I know this is your top priority over your job, family, dog, eating, sleeping, whatever ;).

[ElderDragon]

If it is not possible to make a stowable hard targa top I like Draco-REX's suggestion of a fabric top for summer and a hard top for winter.

Has anyone made a fabric top with internal bows or ribs that has a strong structure when latched in place? For instance flexible longitudinal strips that flex downward as they are latched to the windshield thereby forming a stiffly sprung piece for the roof with a tight canvas.

[BrandonDrums]

I thought Dave mentioned the other models would not be going because of the lack of finalized details. FFR needs to show people a model that is complete with details, not one that is incomplete. I would assume this had a lot to do with the negative comments with regard to the lackluster first pics and the significant improvement with the addition of detail to jims design.

Wow, you would think because of the feedback on the silver car one would come to the conclusion that perhaps the silver car was the LEAST ready...

[apexanimal]

still lovin the red/orange one...


i want to see the track version ;)

[Nelff]

I'm loving this even more! Looking at the back, any chance that a diffuser could be built into the black facia? It would be easy...

[adesilva]

Has Rodney stated that he will be revising the rear end as well ? taking a look at the rear of the blue car and the front of the orange .. they dont appear to flow very well at all. If you take a look at the orange design it also appears to have a spoiler/lip built in that isnt in the blue design.

[dclin]

This is a study to look at altering the low side window by raising it up. This may be watering down the original concept too far. That was not my intent, I'm just trying to mature the design and take some of the last objections away. What do you think? Is this going too far?

changed:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/VenomFront2b-high-sides.jpg
original:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/VenomFront2b.jpg


What about splitting the difference and seeing what that looks like?

I don't think raising the beltline up an inch or inch and half would change the coke bottle look that some of us prefer. I think kach22i's version changes the original character just a little too much.

As for the rear - LEAVE IT ALONE! :) (other than putting in a functional diffuser as was suggested a few posts back). Actually, now that I think about it, the Hennessy Venom GT comes closest to what Rodney has done(meaning overall arch shape, not necessarily the rear 'fascia' :

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/08/07-hennessey-venom-gt.jpg

[dclin]

http://rodneyolmos.com/factoryfive/v2/images/2.jpg

Posting the rear 3/4 shot again, just so that I can look at it on the same page as the Hennessy

[dclin]

As for the side windows, is F5 actually going to have roll down windows no matter what design they choose?

That's quite a bit of engineering, especially as that I doubt any of the designs uses the WRX glass. Even if it was so, i couldn't care less if the window went down all the way. Cars like the Mclaren F1 and Ferrari F40 have little tiny inset window; windows that roll down 90% is good enough for me - I don't plan on hanging my arm out the side.

I like the idea mentioned somewhere above of a removable window with a sliding inset, ala Mclaren, F40, etc. I see this car, no matter what design is chosen, as a 4 door motorcycle; a X-Bow or Atom with a little bit more clothes on, if you will. The target is $15k; I'm afraid that with all the expectations to satisfy, its not going to be anywhere close to it (I'll come out and say it actually; the $15k target is only reasonable if we are talking about a bare bones car, with little or no amenities).

[Flashburn]

Please don't shrink the side windows. That will result in a lot of curb climbing. We likes to see out of the cockpit.

[GUNS]

I like the back. Whenever I look at it think about a straight pipe boxer rumble and that makes me happy.

[Steve91T]

Please don't shrink the side windows. That will result in a lot of curb climbing. We likes to see out of the cockpit.


Those side windows are relatively large. Shrinking the window by an inch or two isn't going to cause such a large blind spot that you are hopping curbs.

[mekeys]

The shape of the body is great.I don't like the FRONT or the BACK.
Just my opinion.

Mel

[Oppenheimer]

As for the side windows, is F5 actually going to have roll down windows no matter what design they choose? ... The target is $15k; I'm afraid that with all the expectations to satisfy, its not going to be anywhere close to it (I'll come out and say it actually; the $15k target is only reasonable if we are talking about a bare bones car, with little or no amenities).

You missed lots of threads on this. The $15K 818 weight target is for a bare bones roadster version. There are also plans for Coupe and Targa versions, which will likely cost more and weigh more. Stuff like Targa and side windows could even be options on the Roadster (again, at extra cost and weight).

[RonSchofield]

This is the 818 that I want to build. Exact colour and everything.

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

[nickarub]

The window fix does look good! I like this design because it has the most cutting edge look that will not get outdated looking for a Long time. To me it gives that small light 818 feel to the name. I always loved the way the Elise looks and this looks 10X sexier.

[ScottKoschwitz]

I have to admit that the original design was my least favorite of the winners, but I am really impressed with how this has been developed. This is towards the top of my list now. Its looks definitely match what I envision the 818 to be.

[kach22i]

http://rodneyolmos.com/factoryfive/v2/images/2.jpg

Posting the rear 3/4 shot again, just so that I can look at it on the same page as the Hennessy
I took some of the overtly gestured curves out, and perhaps sucking some of the life out of the concept, but maybe it was a bit too lively for some to begin with. Did I go too far? Is it a boring sack of gel coated fiberglass now?

Did the lower door (see below), but did not put the new side vent in.
url]http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/[/url]
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/O-rear-window-alteration-3.jpg

[prematureapex]

Are we looking at the same pics here?

Does it look "cool". Yes, very. Fine.

How about some praticality considerations?

How is it going to look with 16/17" wheels (overall diameter around 25") at a 45-50 offset? Horrible.

Don't mind requiring people to buy bigger wheels to make it look decent? OK, please provide me with some links to huge diameter wheels in the offsets illustrated, that are 5x100. What are we running in those pics, 305s out back, on an 1800 lb. car? :rolleyes:

It's completely unrealistic in the fender department.

Windows larger than the doors?

Looks like a cartoon, something from Cars.

I like it, but completely unuseable without major changes, which I think will really take away from the "wow appeal" it has in its current form.

[Steve91T]

I took some of the overtly gestured curves, perhaps sucking some of the life out of the concept, but maybe it was a bit too lively for some to begin with. Did I go too far? Is it a boring sack of gel coated fiberglass now?
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/O-rear-window-alteration.jpg

The problem with what you did with the doors is you made a straight line. That's the only straight line, which doesn't flow. I think the dip in the top or the door needs to be split between what you have done, and the original. Still have a dip, just a small dip.

As for the rear, I like the original better, but just by a little bit. I don't like the straight line in the body above the tail lights.

Is it easy to slit the difference with the doors? I'd like to see that.

Steve

[BipDBo]

Are we looking at the same pics here?

Does it look "cool". Yes, very. Fine.

How about some praticality considerations?

How is it going to look with 16/17" wheels (overall diameter around 25") at a 45-50 offset? Horrible.

Don't mind requiring people to buy bigger wheels to make it look decent? OK, please provide me with some links to huge diameter wheels in the offsets illustrated, that are 5x100. What are we running in those pics, 305s out back, on an 1800 lb. car? :rolleyes:

It's completely unrealistic in the fender department.

Windows larger than the doors?

Looks like a cartoon, something from Cars.

I like it, but completely unuseable without major changes, which I think will really take away from the "wow appeal" it has in its current form.

I very much agree. I like these discussions and tweeks, but major modifications need to be made. We are no longer at the napkin sketch stage. No matter how cool it may look on screen, if it can not be modified to the specified chassis, rollbar and track width dimensions with stock wrx wheels, then it is irrelevant.

[Steve91T]

Are we looking at the same pics here?

Does it look "cool". Yes, very. Fine.

How about some praticality considerations?

How is it going to look with 16/17" wheels (overall diameter around 25") at a 45-50 offset? Horrible.

Don't mind requiring people to buy bigger wheels to make it look decent? OK, please provide me with some links to huge diameter wheels in the offsets illustrated, that are 5x100. What are we running in those pics, 305s out back, on an 1800 lb. car? :rolleyes:

It's completely unrealistic in the fender department.

Windows larger than the doors?

Looks like a cartoon, something from Cars.

I like it, but completely unuseable without major changes, which I think will really take away from the "wow appeal" it has in its current form.


I agree with your comment about the wheels. Throw stock wheels on it and it's not going to look right. Personally, I'm going with aftermarket wheels. I'm definitely not putting 20's on it though. More like 17, maybe 18's. I think the cartoon look has to do with the original front end and the swooping doors. These changes are giving it a more grown up, real look. It'll get there.

[Jeff Kleiner]

First of all let me say that I like the look and latest refinements but am afraid that these artistic renderings and designs may fall apart when they have to be engineered to actually work. The illustrations make it appear that the car is pulled in quite a lot at the waist (across it's width) and also that the doors are fairly deep (from the exterior surface to the interior surface). I'm left with the question of what the true interior width would be from inside of door to inside of door. If it requires the seats to be so close together that an average sized driver winds up banging elbows with the passenger it isn't really a viable design...

Jeff

[Oppenheimer]

Kach, really like what you did with the door. But what Steve911T said, its the only stright line. How about if you just keep the swoop, but lighten it by just connecting that door crease with the fender crease. You did that as part of the door raise, but what if you just do the crease connect, but leave the curve in place? Or maybe leave the curve, but not dipped as much?

The rear, also don't like the flat line connecting the taillights. But something needs to change back here, not liking the rear much at all. If we could find a way to take some cues from the Vantage rear.

PS, any time to work on the body colored roof? Wondering how that will look. Appreciate all your efforts here.

[bbjones121]

Straighter line in back looks terribly out of place with the curvy design. I wonder what Shawn's rear end would look like. I think all these mods are taking away from the "lurking eyes" look that was the original design. That is fine, I like the new front end, but back does not match at all.

[Psay]

The problem with what you did with the doors is you made a straight line. That's the only straight line, which doesn't flow. I think the dip in the top or the door needs to be split between what you have done, and the original. Still have a dip, just a small dip.

As for the rear, I like the original better, but just by a little bit. I don't like the straight line in the body above the tail lights.

Is it easy to slit the difference with the doors? I'd like to see that.

Steve

I much prefer the original door line over the straight line, it just doesn't work. I agree with Steve91T split the difference and see how that turns out.

The rear is much better but again the straight line just doesn't look right among all those curves. Could this be made to swoop down in the middle?

[kach22i]

PS, any time to work on the body colored roof? Wondering how that will look. Appreciate all your efforts here.
I'm just tossing out proposed changes here. "Mr. O" himself has the talent to gently arc the body panels half way in between and color them.

I have to do some boring code work now, and figure out how many toilets a daycare is going to have. Back to reality for me. Have a nice day.

[BipDBo]

First of all let me say that I like the look and latest refinements but am afraid that these artistic renderings and designs may fall apart when they have to be engineered to actually work. The illustrations make it appear that the car is pulled in quite a lot at the waist (across it's width) and also that the doors are fairly deep (from the exterior surface to the interior surface). I'm left with the question of what the true interior width would be from inside of door to inside of door. If it requires the seats to be so close together that an average sized driver winds up banging elbows with the passenger it isn't really a viable design...

Jeff

I made the same comment earlier, but comments on practicality seem to fall on def ears. What I didn't realize was that the car is not too narrow at the doors. It's too wide at the wheels, 12" too wide. I think that the first thing that needs to be done s to coorect this to conform to all of the 818 specs. Looking at this picture, there is still room for some hourglass shape, but it can't be as pronounced as the original concept renderings.5793

[Psay]

I made the same comment earlier, but comments on practicality seem to fall on def ears. What I didn't realize was that the car is not too narrow at the doors. It's too wide at the wheels, 12" too wide. I think that the first thing that needs to be done s to coorect this to conform to all of the 818 specs. Looking at this picture, there is still room for some hourglass shape, but it can't be as pronounced as the original concept renderings.5793

The width has been corrected see post 1 of this thread. You are right about the cabin width it may be a little on the cramped size. I just hope any revisions don't loose that hour glass shape because that is what makes this car for me.

[kach22i]

The problem with what you did with the doors is you made a straight line. That's the only straight line, which doesn't flow.
Steve, I think based on what you said and the image you posted that you did not see the latest image I did. I was editing it every 5 minutes or so this afternoon after lunch. The last rendition shows the straight upper door line and straight lower door line, which is current with the front 3/4 view of a straight lower door line (and black rocker).

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/O-rear-window-alteration-3.jpg

To judge if these lines "flow" I think it's best to wait for a true side view from it's creator. I bet he has a few more tricks up his sleeve.

[VTX]

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

Ok, I will admit I had pretty much started ignoring this thread because I had written off your design...THAT will teach me LOL.

This KICKS *** and now I've done a complete 180 on your design. I love it!

[D2W]

Questions for Rodney O. Based on what concerns others have I thought we should ask you directly. Does your current design fit the chassis? Meaning is it wide enough in the middle for the passenger compartment? What size are the wheels and tires on your model? If they are far bigger than stock, can you model it with stock sizes? Thanks Rodney, loving your work.

[Steve91T]

Steve, I think based on what you said and the image you posted that you did not see the latest image I did. I was editing it every 5 minutes or so this afternoon after lunch. The last rendition shows the straight upper door line and straight lower door line, which is current with the front 3/4 view of a straight lower door line (and black rocker).

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/O-rear-window-alteration-3.jpg

To judge if these lines "flow" I think it's best to wait for a true side view from it's creator. I bet he has a few more tricks up his sleeve.

Looks the same to me. Anyway, I know you can't do what Rodney can, I was just giving you some constructive criticism. I like the higher doors, I just think it needs to have the dip.

[Vman7]

The door top curve is misleading when looking at it from an angle shot. here is one of the side view and the door top curve works well, it flows with the rest of the car. Not sure if it has changed since Rodney changed the front though.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5548&d=1319609841

[RodneyO]

Questions for Rodney O. Based on what concerns others have I thought we should ask you directly. Does your current design fit the chassis? Meaning is it wide enough in the middle for the passenger compartment? What size are the wheels and tires on your model? If they are far bigger than stock, can you model it with stock sizes? Thanks Rodney, loving your work.

This is actually what I am currently working on; making tires that are actually scale accurate. I have been keeping a close eye on this thread to see what concerns individuals have and look into them while I am in 3d. These new changes won't be done fast because it is now getting to real world scale.

The renders provided were more concept ideas for the contest; but moving forward, I'm starting to pay close attention to mechanical work, blind spots, nose length, ventilation, etc. The one thing I'm not able to accurately give you info on is the chassis. I know for sure that the square wrap around frame has made it very difficult to design around. My hope is that this is one of the adjustments FFR will make because as of now, I don't know if it will fit with the current design I have made...or even any other's designs. If anyone has direct left and front photos of the chassis, I could use it as rotoscopes in 3d to see how bad things are aligning. This will actually help tremendously.

On other stuff, I have owned 2 FD RX-7s one R1 package. One thing I learned to love about the short nose in the rx7 was that I really had to go out of my way to scrape it, so my attachments to short noses comes from Mazda. Power to weight ratio is huge for me after owning FDs so I'm really excited about the 818. I would like to think that I'm mechanically inclined, the only thing i have never done is actually take an engine apart and put it back together. Sorry... the reason I'm bringing this up it's that I want you guys to feel somewhat comfortable that I'm not ignoring the mechanical needs.

Btw thanks for all the feedback and images created, those all help. Thank you.

[RodneyO]

Here is an Idea for Exhaust (3" roughly), and at least here in the USA most states you have to have a Backup Light.

Since I don't know the scale of Rodney's, I just did a rough estimate on size.

The Lic. Plate is going to tough, best place might be in the black panel right above the lower mesh screen.
Hard to get the size right without really knowing the scale. If I knew the size of the tail lights I would have something to go by.

Remember I just did the front pic and rear pic fast, but you get the idea.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5768&d=1320293484
5768

Thanks for all the edits, these are great, I will try to apply some of these when I get to the back area, I also think you got some mad skills with photoshop, cheers.

[Niburu]

Rodney as a former FD owner (and 2 FC'S) I begin to understand your design work more and more.

[Vman7]

Thanks for all the edits, these are great, I will try to apply some of these when I get to the back area, I also think you got some mad skills with photoshop, cheers.

Thanks Rodney :), I try to help when ever, where ever I can, I enjoy helping. Rodney if you need real world pics and spec.s of headlights, tail lights, BU lights (mostly Hella since you can get them almost anywhere) let me know and I can send them to you.

I think once you really "tweak out" this car, it's going to go to the top of the list for Dave Smith and FFR. Keep at it at the rate you are going this is really starting become my fav.

David

[Vman7]

I posted this in my Vantage thread, then after I wrote it, I thought I should put it here as well. To give credit where credit is do.

One thing I would like to say right now up front, I am paying attention to Rodney's car right now, and I think his car with a few refinements here and there and getting it to more "real world". I think Rodney's just may be a real winner. Since Rodney has used 3D he can pretty much give the files to Dave Smith and FFR to build a real good 1/4 scale and real full size model from. Just giving credit where credit is due. I still like Xabier's as well. The other ones are ok design wise, but as far as there skill level in design, out standing! I wish I had there skills at 3D Cad.

David

[Vman7]

Rodney, This is the site I used to help with tire/wheel sizing. Comes in real handy.

I would stay with tires in the 25" dia. I had a list somewhere I posted of all the tire sizes I based mine on, but can't remember which thread it is in....lol

I know the rear tires are roughly 25.4" dia by 9 to 9 1/2" widith.


http://www.rimsntires.com/specs.jsp

[GUNS]

I posted this in my Vantage thread, then after I wrote it, I thought I should put it here as well. To give credit where credit is do.

One thing I would like to say right now up front, I am paying attention to Rodney's car right now, and I think his car with a few refinements here and there and getting it to more "real world". I think Rodney's just may be a real winner. Since Rodney has used 3D he can pretty much give the files to Dave Smith and FFR to build a real good 1/4 scale and real full size model from. Just giving credit where credit is due. I still like Xabier's as well. The other ones are ok design wise, but as far as there skill level in design, out standing! I wish I had there skills at 3D Cad.

David

It's pretty cool to see "competitors" working together for one common goal. I commend all of you that are putting in so much effort for this project.

[dclin]

Are we looking at the same pics here?

Does it look "cool". Yes, very. Fine.

How about some praticality considerations?

How is it going to look with 16/17" wheels (overall diameter around 25") at a 45-50 offset? Horrible.

Don't mind requiring people to buy bigger wheels to make it look decent? OK, please provide me with some links to huge diameter wheels in the offsets illustrated, that are 5x100. What are we running in those pics, 305s out back, on an 1800 lb. car? :rolleyes:

It's completely unrealistic in the fender department.

Windows larger than the doors?

Looks like a cartoon, something from Cars.

I like it, but completely unuseable without major changes, which I think will really take away from the "wow appeal" it has in its current form.

Gosh, a little stressed today? :)

Here is a pic with a comparison of the wheelbase (based on the template, 95") and the diameter of the tire; works out to roughly 26", so it's not completely out of range like you think. In addition, Rodney mentioned elsewhere that he based the tires on 255, on 9" width wheels. By the way - news flash - 16"/17" wheels aren't going to look good on ANY of the designs.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5804&d=1320471074

5804

As far as wheel selections, www.wheeldude.com sells a number of wider width wheels in 5x100. Here is one I particularly like, in 18x9.5" et38 5x100:

http://www.wheeldude.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=6597

http://www.wheeldude.com/gallery2/d/124045-1/t2r3.jpg

18x10 et30 5x100

http://www.wheeldude.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=6398

18x9 et35 5x100

http://www.wheeldude.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=5649

There are others, but you get the point. In addition, they will make custom offset/widths if 5+ orders:

http://www.wheeldude.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=5683

Of course, on the other side of spectrum, you have wheel manufacturers like SSR, which multi-piece wheel line offers pretty much any realistic offset/width. Yes, in 5x100 too.

http://www.rd-tanabe.com/lineup/ssr/sp1/ssrpsp117181920s.pdf

I've had 2 different sets of SSRs on my RX7 personally (one set of semi-solid forged wheels in 18x10.5 steamrollers on all four, the other a staggered set multi-piece), and they're great stuff. There are others that would be happy machine pretty much anything you wish as well, including www.ccwheel.com ,which is well known in the track community.

As others have pointed out, the chassis design is clearly accommodating to the flared design:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OVERLAY-818-FRAME-SEMA.jpg

My question is what F5 plans to put inside those 1 foot thick doors when they put Jim's design into production. :)

[dclin]

....
On other stuff, I have owned 2 FD RX-7s one R1 package. One thing I learned to love about the short nose in the rx7 was that I really had to go out of my way to scrape it, so my attachments to short noses comes from Mazda. Power to weight ratio is huge for me after owning FDs so I'm really excited about the 818. I would like to think that I'm mechanically inclined, the only thing i have never done is actually take an engine apart and put it back together. Sorry... the reason I'm bringing this up it's that I want you guys to feel somewhat comfortable that I'm not ignoring the mechanical needs.

Btw thanks for all the feedback and images created, those all help. Thank you.

Ahh, as the other poster mentioned, now I know why I was so drawn to your design; FD owner for over a decade now. ;)

[Flamshackle]

I seriously think that Rodney's car with evolution is the top pick now. It looks amazing and he is continuing to refine and develop the shape and details... How can it not just get better from here?!?!

An absolutley stunning look now so much so that I am more ex ited than ever about the 818! Please FFR roll with this design!

[PhyrraM]

..... By the way - news flash - 16"/17" wheels aren't going to look good on ANY of the designs.

But they HAVE to. That's the point.

$15,000 doesn't leave much room. Unless FFR is going to include the wheels and tires in the $9,900 kit, or provide a stream of $3500 WRX donors, the finished product has to look acceptable on stock 205/55R16 rollers. Period.

Can it look better with $2,000 of wheel bling? Of course.

Some of us WANT stock sized wheels/tires (I'd prefer even smaller). Some of us understand what upsizing rolling stock while downsizing weight can do to the vehicle dynamics. Some of us know what scrub radius is and what high offsets can do to it, and what it does to steering effort, feel, and turn-in, even mid-corner stability.

Some of know that you won't have your ultimate "giant-killer" trackstar with the wheels and tires you seem to desire. ("You" being a community term, not anyone in singular)

[Nelff]

I am impressed with the changes that have been made. I was a fan, now I'm only wanting this body. Speaking to the short overhang, I cannot stand long nosed cars if just for the parking lot, curb scraping. Give me a short overhang front and rear any day. The straightened lines on the sides are okay if they are needed for windows. Straight line across the back, I'm okay with. One of the things that I can't stand about the red car is that everything sags from the middle. Look at every corner of the car, it droops. It almost makes me think that it got too hot and is melting. Just makes the car look sad. This car is looking mean!! I'm loving the concept and it's changes. Keep it up!!!

[BipDBo]

But they HAVE to. That's the point.

$15,000 doesn't leave much room. Unless FFR is going to include the wheels and tires in the $9,900 kit, or provide a stream of $3500 WRX donors, the finished product has to look acceptable on stock 205/55R16 rollers. Period.

Can it look better with $2,000 of wheel bling? Of course.

Some of us WANT stock sized wheels/tires (I'd prefer even smaller). Some of us understand what upsizing rolling stock while downsizing weight can do to the vehicle dynamics. Some of us know what scrub radius is and what high offsets can do to it, and what it does to steering effort, feel, and turn-in, even mid-corner stability.

Some of know that you won't have your ultimate "giant-killer" trackstar with the wheels and tires you seem to desire. ("You" being a community term, not anyone in singular)

Yep. The stock WRX wheels are already oversized for a car of this mass, at least they are in the front. on't forg that they are comingfrom a larger car, so they will look pretty big on an 818. Because wheels spin, they aregiant gyroscopes, carrying both linear and ratational kinetic energy. Adding mass at the wheels isthefore a double hit. Bigger wheels would degrade the performance and only make it look like a ghetto cruiser. The Atom has smaller wheels with a wider track width and it looks pretty cool.

[dclin]

But they HAVE to. That's the point.

$15,000 doesn't leave much room. Unless FFR is going to include the wheels and tires in the $9,900 kit, or provide a stream of $3500 WRX donors, the finished product has to look acceptable on stock 205/55R16 rollers. Period.

Can it look better with $2,000 of wheel bling? Of course.

Some of us WANT stock sized wheels/tires (I'd prefer even smaller). Some of us understand what upsizing rolling stock while downsizing weight can do to the vehicle dynamics. Some of us know what scrub radius is and what high offsets can do to it, and what it does to steering effort, feel, and turn-in, even mid-corner stability.

Some of know that you won't have your ultimate "giant-killer" trackstar with the wheels and tires you seem to desire. ("You" being a community term, not anyone in singular)


Yep. The stock WRX wheels are already oversized for a car of this mass, at least they are in the front. on't forg that they are comingfrom a larger car, so they will look pretty big on an 818. Because wheels spin, they aregiant gyroscopes, carrying both linear and ratational kinetic energy. Adding mass at the wheels isthefore a double hit. Bigger wheels would degrade the performance and only make it look like a ghetto cruiser. The Atom has smaller wheels with a wider track width and it looks pretty cool.

My meaning behind that comment is that some here seem to reaching for all sort of reasons to reject Rodney's design. And I mean REALLY reaching; as that the same arguments they throw out can be applied to ANY of the designs. People's prejudices are really clouding their comments/responses, and they're hiding it behind half truths; I thought this was pretty evident in the post I was responding to.

As I stated above, the side view clearly shows that the OVERALL TIRE diameter is within stock range (I calculate roughly 26", which is not too far off, where the difference in 'look' would be barely noticeable). Feel free to put whatever diameter wheel you wish inside. :) As for the width, I hope that F5 designs it to allow for a 9" width and 255, as Rodney has intended. Not all of us will be happy with the stock 225hp (*sigh* and to head off any rebuttals now, I am acutely aware that there is such thing as too much HP - but it would be my kit that I would be experimenting with. I'll also say that the CRXs my friends and I built in '90-'91 are still one of the most enjoyable cars I've driven).

16x6.5 (MY02-05) and 17x7 (MY06-07) are the stock wheel sizes. Great for an AWD car (you know, a car that puts its power down to all four wheels), but the dynamics of the 818 will be slightly different. I'm not going to tell you if using the stock sizes is appropriate for what you want to achieve though.

Yes, yes, it isn't lost on me the dynamics of wheels, tires, width, offsets and the like; I autocrossed the Suby, and I'm rebuilding the RX7 for primarily track duty (though this might change if the 818 comes out nicely), but there are benefits to larger diameter wheels and wider tires- which will mean more to us that do plan on a little more HP. I won't bother with the obvious laundry list of reasons. The list of wheel sizes I posted was more to show there are actually quite a bit of selection of 5x100 wheels, if someone bothered to look.

Anyhoo, back to dreaming about building my 'ghetto cruiser'. :)

[Nelff]

Speaking to the wheel issue. I have a '96 Cobra that has seen stock 17x8"-245 (it looked stupid), now 9" wide with 255 fr 295 bk, my drag radials are 10.5/305 and autocross wheel tires are 10"-255 fr 10.5-295 rear. And yeah I thought about mini tub and 20x10.5-335's...

I'm all for everyone using the stock wheel tire combo. BUT, I will have two sets of wheel/tire combos for this car. And they are NOT going to be in a stock size...

I'll have a bling set for everyday driving and a set for slicks, just like a lot of other guys...

Oh, one other thing about the body shape. The wheel arches should be designed to be trimmable for different wheel/tire combos. No odd lips please...

[slopoke]

The orange Venom is starting to show its true characture ... when will the refinements make it into the 3D model at the begining of this thread? Is that smoke I smell?

[Draco-REX]

This car keeps getting better and better.

Rim selection is going to be a Nightmare though.

Oh, I think the orange Venom should be called the Venom EVO.

[dclin]

Yep. The stock WRX wheels are already oversized for a car of this mass, at least they are in the front. on't forg that they are comingfrom a larger car, so they will look pretty big on an 818. Because wheels spin, they aregiant gyroscopes, carrying both linear and ratational kinetic energy. Adding mass at the wheels isthefore a double hit. Bigger wheels would degrade the performance and only make it look like a ghetto cruiser. The Atom has smaller wheels with a wider track width and it looks pretty cool.

BTW, just so that there is no confusion, the Ariel Atom actually has wider wheels and tires than the stock WRX, at least at the rear - 15x7 front and 16x8 on 205/50/15 and 245/45/16.

And happens to weigh 450lbs less (@1350lbs) than the projected, bare-bones 818 (never mind a version with amenities).

Completely ignoring 'looks' for the moment, the stock WRX wheels (again, 16x6.5 on 205/55/16 for MY02-06 and 17x7 on 215/45/17 for MY06-07) are not going to work for me. They might for you and PhyraaM, however.

[Draco-REX]

I wouldn't be too concerned about scrub radius unless you plan to track the car competitively.

[kach22i]

The door top curve is misleading when looking at it from an angle shot. here is one of the side view and the door top curve works well, it flows with the rest of the car. Not sure if it has changed since Rodney changed the front though.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5548&d=1319609841

While doing this side study my wife asked me; What are you doing to that poor car?

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Modified-BlueSide1.jpg

I know I made the side vent too large, probably made more errors than that. Sorry "O", I was curious about the side.

[David]

This is the 818 that I want to build. Exact colour and everything.

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

I like it!!!!! I was not a fan of the original nose, but this is much much better.

David

[David]

wow... I will admit that I had pretty much ignored Rodneys model because I was not a fan of it but after looking at this orange version it is 1000x better than what I originally saw. This is so much more aggressive looking and it doesnt look as much like an alien vehicle but something I could actually picture on the road. Orange is also my favorite color so I have not been able to tell if that is swaying me a little as well haha... If FF had an orange mold for any of these cars id fall in love... sadly I dont expect it.. I am assuming we will get red as the base color.

+1 !

[BipDBo]

BTW, just so that there is no confusion, the Ariel Atom actually has wider wheels and tires than the stock WRX, at least at the rear - 15x7 front and 16x8 on 205/50/15 and 245/45/16.

And happens to weigh 450lbs less (@1350lbs) than the projected, bare-bones 818 (never mind a version with amenities).

Completely ignoring 'looks' for the moment, the stock WRX wheels (again, 16x6.5 on 205/55/16 for MY02-06 and 17x7 on 215/45/17 for MY06-07) are not going to work for me. They might for you and PhyraaM, however.

I don't know where you get your info, maybe its' for different models or different years. I'll look at 2006. Both the Atom and the WRX have the same tires at all 4 corners.
2006 WRX: P215/45WR17 (8.5" wide, 24.6" diameter)
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2006-subaru-impreza-2.5-wrx-manual-techspecs.htm
2006 Atom: 195/50 R15 (7.7" wide, 22.7" diameter)
http://www.rsportscars.com/ariel/2006-ariel-atom/
I'm not sure about the acutal wheel width.

[dclin]

I don't know where you get your info, maybe its' for different models or different years. I'll look at 2006. Both the Atom and the WRX have the same tires at all 4 corners.
2006 WRX: P215/45WR17 (8.5" wide, 24.6" diameter)
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2006-subaru-impreza-2.5-wrx-manual-techspecs.htm
2006 Atom: 195/50 R15 (7.7" wide, 22.7" diameter)
http://www.rsportscars.com/ariel/2006-ariel-atom/
I'm not sure about the acutal wheel width.

http://www.insideline.com/ariel/full-test-2005-ariel-atom.html

Could be different for other years as you said; my Google skills fail me, or apparently it's something of a trade secret. Regardless, the point still stands.

One really, really big problem I have is using the stock brakes (the MY02-05 anyways); they're really, really puny, especially in the rear - unvented, 10.3" discs. If you don't have a MY02-05, go check one out, especially the rear. They worked fine for the short blast that is autocrossing, but I have serious reservations for anything past two laps on your typical road track, even more considering the different chassis; I would be downright scared on a fast track like VIR, 1800lbs or not.

MY06 introduced larger brakes, front and rear, and upgraded the rear discs to vented. To the best of my knowledge, the MY02-05 16" wheels will not fit over the larger, front brakes of the MY06-07. The MY06-07 brakes might be ok for total amateurs like me, but once someone starts building speed, I'd be skeptical of even those. Then again, I'm not sure how well the front and rear brakes can be swapped onto each other's hubs.

Which leads us to larger diameter/wider wheels. I'm totally mindful of adding unsprung and rotating weight, but I don't plan on experimenting with different brake sizes (and, consequently, wheel sizes). I'm guessing something in the 12" range would be more than adequate for 1800lbs, which would likely require a 17" wheel at minimum. Using the Atom as a benchmark, if the specs I linked are correct,I would imagine the heavier 818 would do well with a wider wheel set as well, to be determined by Jim obviously. But I think I went off on a tangent; I'm sure there is brake thread around here I'm too lazy too explore at the moment.

Sorry for crapping in your thread Rodney. :)

[Draco-REX]

Anyone who's going to seriously track the 818 will be changing the brakes for the added heat capacity. But that's not a concern for day-to-day driving, especially since the 818 will be MUCH kinder on brakes than the WRX.

The stock brakes, designed to haul down a 3000lb car, will be more than enough for the 818 at 1800lbs. Remember, big brakes don't make you stop better, all they do is stop the wheels from turning sooner. If the brakes lock the wheels, you need more tire before you need more brakes. And the stock WRX brakes can lock the stock wheels. Hell, on cold days, my STI (3300lbs, Brembo 4-pot fronts, 2-pot rears) can lock up my 255s.

So there's no initial need for bigger brakes on the 818.

Oh, the rear WRX brakes are vented. I think the earlier non-turbo Imprezas had solid discs.

[BipDBo]

http://www.insideline.com/ariel/full-test-2005-ariel-atom.html

Could be different for other years as you said; my Google skills fail me, or apparently it's something of a trade secret. Regardless, the point still stands.

One really, really big problem I have is using the stock brakes (the MY02-05 anyways); they're really, really puny, especially in the rear - unvented, 10.3" discs. If you don't have a MY02-05, go check one out, especially the rear. They worked fine for the short blast that is autocrossing, but I have serious reservations for anything past two laps on your typical road track, even more considering the different chassis; I would be downright scared on a fast track like VIR, 1800lbs or not.

MY06 introduced larger brakes, front and rear, and upgraded the rear discs to vented. To the best of my knowledge, the MY02-05 16" wheels will not fit over the larger, front brakes of the MY06-07. The MY06-07 brakes might be ok for total amateurs like me, but once someone starts building speed, I'd be skeptical of even those. Then again, I'm not sure how well the front and rear brakes can be swapped onto each other's hubs.

Which leads us to larger diameter/wider wheels. I'm totally mindful of adding unsprung and rotating weight, but I don't plan on experimenting with different brake sizes (and, consequently, wheel sizes). I'm guessing something in the 12" range would be more than adequate for 1800lbs, which would likely require a 17" wheel at minimum. Using the Atom as a benchmark, if the specs I linked are correct,I would imagine the heavier 818 would do well with a wider wheel set as well, to be determined by Jim obviously. But I think I went off on a tangent; I'm sure there is brake thread around here I'm too lazy too explore at the moment.

Sorry for crapping in your thread Rodney. :)

The stock WRX wheels are what the 818 will be built with 90% of the time, so that should be the standard of design. Also, if they atart a sec series, they'll probably go with the WRX wheels. Above all, the 818 is a budget kit car. If you want to poor a ton of money into your build, maybe you should start with a GTM. It is even more important to stick to other design constraints, like chassis dimensions.
If Rodney wants to design the fenders with some extra breathing room around stock WRX wheels so that they can accomodate larger diameter or wider tires that's alright with me. Not too much room, though, because with the stock wheels installed, it shouldn't look like a box truck.

[crackedcornish]

While doing this side study my wife asked me; What are you doing to that poor car?

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Modified-BlueSide1.jpg

I know I made the side vent too large, probably made more errors than that. Sorry "O", I was curious about the side.

sorry, but I don't like any of these changes

[flyboy2160]

sorry, but I don't like any of these changes

me neither. these changes fall into what, for me, is the 'transitor' effect: a seemingly small change tips a car design from "yes, i like that!" to "awkward, i don't like it.*"

in this case:
- a key element in the side view is the way the front bumper face closely follows the tire/ arch opening line to the ground. the bulged out nose now looks vette-like, not crazy-rodney-like

- the same for the straight upper door line. the original swoop connects the car end-to-end in one seamless flow. this looks like 2 disparate ends ends joined by something.

*one example is how the porsche 911 side shape has morphed from a lithe shape relatively closely-coupled to the wheels into a bloated-overhang one in which the wheelbase is just too small relative to the overall length and mass of the car. :p yeah, so sue me for daring to criticize porsche design.... another is the first gen new mini to the current tyrannical nanny state pedestrian safety second gen design.

:p listen to your wife!

[kach22i]

in this case:
- a key element in the side view ........... the bulged out nose .......... porsche 911
I think the side view works, but admit some of the bouncy flow is gone, which is what I wanted.

You do not see how the nose curves away in the side view, the way you can in the front 3/4 view, keep that in mind when viewing.

One Porsche owner on Pelican Parts once said the front overhang "extends into the future" it is so long. The new 991/911 and new Boxster in the works have shorter front and rear overhangs.

[bromikl]

While doing this side study my wife asked me; What are you doing to that poor car?

Second that.

[Movieman]

Didn't know that there was a limit here, I'm going to look into it =), I will raise them up though,

When I built the original 3d model I used what was provided by FF as a template "guideline", the adjustments I have been making will start using real world scale tires, etc. Hopefully you will see this on the new 3d model soon.

One area of focus I have been putting efforts behind has been a way to be able to put away the Targa Top on the front. Someone in here mentioned the idea of splitting the Targa in half, that sounds like a good option, but I know some have requested to put a release vent on top of the hood, but that will not work if thats where the Targa goes. Another one are the side windows, since I have a very low side door the window is not able to travel as far down as it need it to, so I have stretch the door body down making and have actually move the line up a bit as well, this new changes in the 3d version now allow a window to fully come down.

Another is the blind spot, the hump style of design creates a big blind spot, the solution so far is working but is changing the design a bit, I'm trying not to change the original design to much, because it will loose its essence. Let's see other changes... I have a few more can't think of at the moment.. all of these fixes will be present in the 3d version.

Draco-REX - wrote
"Door handles, though cool in your design, might require expensive custom work. The 02-07 Impreza door handles, though large-ish, aren't that ugly. Maybe it would be interesting to see what they would look like on the doors."

I tried this it didn't look good =(, I'm gonna start hunting some that might work. thanks for the suggestion it was great, I will try and post images when i get a chance.


so here are some updates:

Thanks Kach22i for the edits you made, they really helped.

cheers,

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg
Just one word on this: PERFECT!:cool:

[PhyrraM]

WRX brake facts:

'02-'05 WRX rear brakes are solid rotors.

'06-'07 WRX 2 piston rear brakes are larger and vented rotors.

'06-'07 WRX 4piston fronts have the same exact rotor as the '02-'05 WRX 2piston fronts.

'06-'07 WRX 4 piston calipers have less braking force than the '02-'05 2piston calipers.

'06-'07 WRX 4 piston calipers have more thermal capacity and less deflection than '02-'05 2piston calipers.

The 4 pistons fronts will not fit '02-'05 OEM 16" wheels. They will fit many other OEM and aftermarket 16" wheels (specifically the '98-'01 Impreza RS wheels).


Other wheel and tire thoughts:

I think many folks are mistunderstanding my comments and thoughts on wheels anf tires. I only think that OEM rolling stock needs to "look acceptable". I fully realize there are many "bigger is better" people out there, and I don't neccisarily think they are wrong. The 818 will have many purposes, and that means many varied choices for rubber.

The driving focus of the project for FFR is the total price and the single donor theory. Dave also says the HoF factor is primary. To me, that means that a level of 90% HoF should be there with OEM wheels and tires.

I, personally, think that less than 50% will actually be built with stock wheels and tires, but those should also have HoF looks. To throw that out is just as selfish as forcing another into too small tires. The donor WRX is a good example...it looks "OK" with 205/55R16, but can also accomodate 255/??R18s with proper rim selection and a bit of fender rolling.

[dclin]

Anyone who's going to seriously track the 818 will be changing the brakes for the added heat capacity. But that's not a concern for day-to-day driving, especially since the 818 will be MUCH kinder on brakes than the WRX.

The stock brakes, designed to haul down a 3000lb car, will be more than enough for the 818 at 1800lbs. Remember, big brakes don't make you stop better, all they do is stop the wheels from turning sooner. If the brakes lock the wheels, you need more tire before you need more brakes. And the stock WRX brakes can lock the stock wheels. Hell, on cold days, my STI (3300lbs, Brembo 4-pot fronts, 2-pot rears) can lock up my 255s.

So there's no initial need for bigger brakes on the 818.

Oh, the rear WRX brakes are vented. I think the earlier non-turbo Imprezas had solid discs.

My MY02 WRX has rear solid rotors. They look like they belong on a (small) motorcycle. Probably has the heat capacity of a doorstop. Worked fine in autocross though, not that I was competitive or anything. :)

[bbjones121]

Warped the rotors on my 06 legacy twice, now I have DBA 4000 slotted. I swear by these. If you are worried about brakes, these are a very cheap upgrade (bought all four of mine for a bit less than $400). They brake harder for longer and don't warp. They hold up to full braking from 75mph to 10mph coming down I-70 at Eisenhower Tunnel and Georgetown hill. Unless a vehicle is designed for towing, there are rarely any cars on the road that have brakes designed for full braking on mountainous roads like we have. If anyone has ever driven this here in Colorado, you know what I am talking about.

[crackedcornish]

guys, can we please get this body design thread back on track ;)

[Nelff]

Door handles? Just go keyless with door poppers. That will keep the lines clean too...

[scartaan]

Rodney and Jim S- If O's design is productionized would the black panels be attached separately? if so, then in the front, the "splitter" part could also be separate and replaceable for the usual damage or left off if desired. The rocker panals could be separate as well. Then if the colored panals could have some adjustment this would aid door fitment. Having multiple panels like this should also allow the desired "painted" and finished resultof the body. The front black panels could also morph into fender liners with integral brake ducts. Finally, the windshield surround could be the front part of a rollcage like the 65coupe with a single bar down the middle as a T-top to allow a two part solid top. just some ideas.

[Hiryu]

Is there any chance of getting a rotation video around the new model, as well as some more realistic wheels, headlight covers (most likely won't be tinted and will probably have screws holding them in, etc.), ride height, etc.? Rodney, if you're too busy, I'm a time millionaire and would be happy to render a video as well as different angles if you could output the model to an .obj file or something and are comfortable sending it to me...It would be an honor for me to help out on this project some more.

Put me in the group of people who didn't really like Rodney's original model but am VERY excited with the new model. Not only does it look great, it is also a very unique design (at least personally, I don't see much of a TVR link). I think it would be a great and unique addition to FFR's lineup.

I just wish the new version was ready before SEMA so I could have asked Dave about it when I was lucky enough to talk to him; I'd REALLY like to know what he thinks of it.

Anyways--as much as I get annoyed when people say things like this whenever they see a car they like--let's start building the moulds for this one! :)

Mike

[olpro]

I always thought this design looked a little weak in the middle, like it would break in half. This (very rough) modification just takes some of the curve out of the middle (and a longer front overhang is probably needed to clear the radiator as well as look less stubby). The rear is still a little chubby at the top.
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[bbjones121]

I always thought this design looked a little weak in the middle, like it would break in half. This (very rough) modification just takes some of the curve out of the middle (and a longer front overhang is probably needed to clear the radiator as well as look less stubby). The rear is still a little chubby at the top.
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I like the subtle changes olpro. It looks like the windows are a slightly more manageable size as well. The front end overhang may be what the new design change (orange car) allows.

[crackedcornish]

I always thought this design looked a little weak in the middle, like it would break in half. This (very rough) modification just takes some of the curve out of the middle (and a longer front overhang is probably needed to clear the radiator as well as look less stubby). The rear is still a little chubby at the top.
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amazing how some very subtle changes can make the whole car look longer/higher

[ScottKoschwitz]

I like the subtle changes olpro. It looks like the windows are a slightly more manageable size as well. The front end overhang may be what the new design change (orange car) allows.

I like that. It does make it look longer and less chunky, and gets away from the dune buggy shape a bit more.

Three changes I would like to see: (1) the removal of the "step down" from the upper rear blue panel to the black rear portion of the greenhouse; (2) making the currently black portion of the greenhouse body color; and (3) reducing the black lower body portion just behind the front wheels by half, and extend the door down, which would reduce the sill and perhaps allow allow a door deep enough to fully rool down the window.

Changes 2 and 3 might make the body look too thick, though.

[olpro]

I tend to overdo these modifications and often have to go back with less. On a belt modification, one gets a double effect when raising it up because we read the body thickness vs the glass as a proportion - and a belt line change affects both at the same time.
My mods did include a slightly reduced black lower panel if you look close.
The space required for a roll-down glass is a lot more than you might think. Of course on this project, although roll-down glass would be nice, it is more than people should expect. If it did roll down, some glass stand-up would be acceptable.
Some folks have mentioned TVR with respect to this model. Personally I don't see it and would probably not welcome it either.

[keys2heaven]

I always thought this design looked a little weak in the middle, like it would break in half. This (very rough) modification just takes some of the curve out of the middle (and a longer front overhang is probably needed to clear the radiator as well as look less stubby). The rear is still a little chubby at the top.
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Nice. I thought the curve was a tad excessive and this minor mod flows better.

[viper_driver]

FFR fan since 2000, built a FFR roadster in 2001.

Went to SEMA exclusively to see the 818 after watching its development online. Here are my observations:

Roadster: Wow, it's come so far in the last 10 years. Why would anyone build from another company? They have improved it so much.

Hot Rod: This was my favorite car at SEMA last year, it's just perfect in every way and such a win for FFR.

GTM: This proves why you need to see a car in person. I think the GTM looks akward in pictures, esp the front end and headlights. In the flesh it's so much better. The worst part though, is the trim on the side windows. It looks like an old piece of leather and is unacceptable on a $50K car for sure, but even on a $15k 818 they need a better idea. I first noticed this last year when many wheel/ tire companies at SEMA had high dollar build GTMs in their booths. All had that terrible kit car side window molding that looked sort of glued on where someone must have just thought, 'oh well, good enough'. This year was no different except the KONI car. Since it doesn't have side windows, they avoided this problem area. The 818 should be a roadster just so they don't have to deal with this.

818. I was disappointed. I came to the show just to see it. The model wasn't as actually as bad as I thought from photos, not such an MR2 copy as I thought (not a good thing!). It wasn't ugly, but wasn't anything special either. The frame looked ok, but not as far along as I guess I suspected. It seems like there is an incredible amount of work to be done on this car. I guess nailing down the body shape is the logical next step.

Dave was there talking to customers. For the time I watched, he was talking about his next idea, a tube frame off road truck. Cool.

For me, I think this helped decide that the 818 isn't for me. Now, the Toyota FT-86/ Scion concept was another story. That thing has serious promise.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu167/viper_driver/IMG_4671.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu167/viper_driver/IMG_4666.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu167/viper_driver/IMG_4669.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu167/viper_driver/IMG_4668.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu167/viper_driver/IMG_4663.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu167/viper_driver/IMG_4662.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu167/viper_driver/IMG_4661.jpg

[prematureapex]

One really, really big problem I have is using the stock brakes (the MY02-05 anyways); they're really, really puny, especially in the rear - unvented, 10.3" discs. If you don't have a MY02-05, go check one out, especially the rear. They worked fine for the short blast that is autocrossing, but I have serious reservations for anything past two laps on your typical road track, even more considering the different chassis; I would be downright scared on a fast track like VIR, 1800lbs or not.

MY06 introduced larger brakes, front and rear, and upgraded the rear discs to vented. To the best of my knowledge, the MY02-05 16" wheels will not fit over the larger, front brakes of the MY06-07. The MY06-07 brakes might be ok for total amateurs like me, but once someone starts building speed, I'd be skeptical of even those. Then again, I'm not sure how well the front and rear brakes can be swapped onto each other's hubs.

This is simply wrong. Cleared up in the Daily Suby Tid Bit of Info thread.

The 02-07 WRX use the SAME front rotors. Further, the 4-pot opposable calipers of the 06-07 WRX, while stiffer, and thus offering better pedal feel, actually generate LESS clamping force (8% less to be exact)than the 2-pot sliders the 02-05 WRX does up front.

Thus, no, the 02-05 WRX front brakes are actually STRONGER than the 06-07 brakes.

The biggest advantages in reality with the 4-pots are the quick pad changes, and the REARWARD bias shift.

Anyway, with the right pads, you'll get no fade on a full weight WRX, on any track, at any level. The larger issue is that you'll rip through rotors every 3 days or so, and wheel bearings every season.

Even Gary Sheenhan ran stock brakes on his USTCC WRX with ZERO problems with on-track fade or stopping power. He, like the rest of us, just went through rotors and wheel bearings like popcorn


Anyway, neither braking torque, nor heat capacity, should be an issue on this car. Not even close. Shaving 2000 lbs. off the curb weight of the car will certainly greatly improve the thermal load on the rotors. And they have PLENTY of torque as it is.

If there's one thing the car will have, it's PLENTY of brakes. Plenty.


Anyway, for some reading on the 4-pots vs. 2-pots, widely regarded as an "aesthetic upgrade" for earlier WRX (also I've run them for nothing but the quick-pad changes):

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8994574&postcount=2

There is an excel spreadsheet in that link with all the piston area data, as well the the effect on brake bias associated with common brake swaps.

Full thread (from above post):

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8994574#post8994574

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1983223&highlight=4+pots+upgrade


Regarding wheels:

02-05 WRX 16" wheels fit the 4-pots with a 3mm spacer. There are plenty of OE and aftermarket 16" wheels that fit the 4-pots though, and even some 15" wheels.

The issue is the caliper width, not height. The 06-07 WRX can actually run some 15" wheels, where the 02-05 can't, because the sliding caliper requires a LARGER diameter wheel as it wraps over the rotor, as opposed ot the 4-pot, which sits flush(er).

[prematureapex]

My MY02 WRX has rear solid rotors. They look like they belong on a (small) motorcycle. Probably has the heat capacity of a doorstop. Worked fine in autocross though, not that I was competitive or anything. :)

The doorstop may have them beat...

However, the point is, the rears only do about 20% of the braking anyway.

Even with the crappy solid rotor in the rear, you go through front pads about 3-times as fast as you do rears at the track. So while there's not a lot of capacity there, not a lot is needed.

The H6 upgrade would be nice in this car. Similar bias shift like the 4-pots, no added weight of the vented rotor where it isn't needed.

[Flashburn]

I've got 15's with snow tires on my 05 wrx right now.

While old pro's changes were well done, I feel like they take away character from rodney's original. The short overhang and original window are more congruent with the design. I think with oldpro's changes it the design loses it's distinctiveness. Also the changes make it look less futuristic and modern and are more of a throwback to the old designs; this misses the overall goal of the design, I feel that it's supposed to be futuristic looking.

[bbjones121]

I've got 15's with snow tires on my 05 wrx right now.

While old pro's changes were well done, I feel like they take away character from rodney's original. The short overhang and original window are more congruent with the design. With oldpro's changes it the design loses it's distinctiveness.

I didn't like the original design that much. I do like the shapes it turned out in the model, but I can't get over the front end. The new modifications that have been done with the orange car help a lot on the front end, but I agree with olpro, the middle just looks flimsy in the original design. It makes the window look very awkward as well.

[Flashburn]

I have to disagree. Flimsy is not a word that can describe this design in any way shape or form. It's curvy and muscular all over. The 3/4 orange view he released embodies this. Nitpicking from side views misses the greatness of the work.
When designs come along that break new ground, people always complain and then learn to love them, this is no different. If rodney tried to please everyone at this stage the car would look like what we are used to now. It would look like older cars. People don't like change.

In my humble opinion he should stay true to the vision that's coming through. Yes the changes he's made to get to the orange car were great, it made the car look sharper without changing the essence. They came from him and were what he felt fell within his own vision. But if he tries to please the pallets that people are accustomed to now, it will end up like the model 4 design: a mash of existing design cues. I don't think anyone really wants this and I feel like this is what Dave was alluding to with his comments regarding crowd-sourcing.
Again IMHO, trying to change the minute details of his design is deleterious to the design itself. Too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the broth. Look at the modded orange design by vman, his heart is in the right place but his changes are, again in my opinion, incongruent with the car.

To paraphrase Dave, a car looks different in sketches than in 3D, different again in a 1/4 model and different again at full size. It might be early to criticize bits and pieces.

I give Rodney a tremendous amount of credit, his design breaks new ground and is cohesive. I'm sure I don't need to ask him to stay true to his vision because he's already shown that once. I'm just trying to lend him some moral support :)

[crackedcornish]

I have to disagree. Flimsy is not a word that can describe this design in any way shape or form. It's curvy and muscular all over. The 3/4 orange view he released embodies this. Nitpicking from side views misses the greatness of the work.
When designs come along that break new ground, people always complain and then learn to love them, this is no different. If rodney tried to please everyone at this stage the car would look like what we are used to now. It would look like older cars. People don't like change.

In my humble opinion he should stay true to the vision that's coming through. Yes the changes he's made to get to the orange car were great, it made the car look sharper without changing the essence. They came from him and were what he felt fell within his own vision. But if he tries to please the pallets that people are accustomed to now, it will end up like the model 4 design: a mash of existing design cues. I don't think anyone really wants this and I feel like this is what Dave was alluding to with his comments regarding crowd-sourcing.
Again IMHO, trying to change the minute details of his design is deleterious to the design itself. Too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the broth. Look at the modded orange design by vman, his heart is in the right place but his changes are, again in my opinion, incongruent with the car.

I give him a tremendous amount of credit, his design breaks new ground and is cohesive. I'm sure I don't need to ask him to stay true to his vision because he's already shown that once. I'm just trying to lend him some moral support :)

I agree with you in that Rodney needs to stay true to his original concept....but he also needs to stay open to suggestions at the same time.

Rodney has shown an improvement in his design by using some of the ideas offered up here, such as adding vents to the cars side and hood, and made them work by applying his own touches to them. As long as he can keep walking that fine line of deciding what suggestions to use or modify, and which ones to ignore, I think the car will do just fine :D

[Oppenheimer]

Wow, I really like the oldpro mods.

On Scott K's requests, didn't Rodney already address #1 in is Tangerine Dream version? (eliminate step down where blue meets black).

As for #2, version with roof body color, I second that. I'm really wondering what that will look like.

[kach22i]

I tend to overdo these modifications and often have to go back with less.
I too tend to go to the extremes to find the limits before zooming in on the target in the middle. You don't know where the middle is unless you know where the outer limits are.

This touch-up reflects design elements found in the orange/red car, including the straight black rocker panel.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/kach22i-olpro-BlueSide.jpg

[crackedcornish]

I too tend to go to the extremes to find the limits before zooming in on the target in the middle. You don't know where the middle is unless you know where the outer limits are.

This touch-up reflects design elements found in the orange/red car, including the straight black rocker panel.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/kach22i-olpro-BlueSide.jpg

I think I prefer the arched rocker... if it was inset as it went towards the rear of the car the bottom section of the rear fender could still become a scoop (from the cut line to the bottom of the rocker)

[Vman7]

Here is Olpro's side with the door beltline adjusted up. I added a couple of color matched tops.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5829&d=1320631174
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