Shawn Whetstone's Design [Archive]

wooward

10-25-2011, 07:46 PM

If you guys want to volunteer a few cars that you think are best (this cannot be a thousand individual posts) that's cool, but the designs that were picked were organized and really are exceptional. I am not saying I am throwing in the towel, rather I think its maybe a good idea to do some extrapolations and maybe let the creative energies loose on some mods to the designs after some detail photos are posted and allow people to really judge the cars well on even ground and with clear shots from all angles.

Since Dave said that he's still open to different designs and Shawn Whetstone's car has gained a lot of interest in the other threads, I decided to start a new thread to separate the comments on this design. Here are all the pics that were submitted.

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-002.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-013.jpg

wooward

10-25-2011, 07:47 PM

Targa
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-007.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-008.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-009.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-010.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-011.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-012.jpg

wooward

10-25-2011, 07:47 PM

Roadster
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-005.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-004.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-003.jpg

GUNS

10-25-2011, 08:03 PM

I'm a huge fan of this project and have been following it since the announcement. I am so confident in this project that I have already purchased my donor car in preparation. With that being said I was a little disappointed with the 4 designs chosen. I would still build any of them, but none of them set my hair on fire as they sit. This design however does. It has everything that I am looking for in this car. It is clean, beautiful, unique, exotic, and functional. I know Dave is looking for feedback, and my advice is to consider this design. I haven't seen anything negative about this design, unlike the 4 other designs. I understand that you guys are in the short hairs with this project, but I really feel that this design is leaps and bounds above the other ones. Either way I fully support whatever you decide.

This is just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

SccrMan13

10-25-2011, 08:37 PM

This seems to be a great cohesive design the profile is awesome. I think with a little tweaking this would be an excellent choice. I would like to see a side exit exhaust on this like the 918 porsche. Also the front opening im not sure about. Its missing something.

VTX

10-25-2011, 08:40 PM

I think it's a great design. Better than the other four IMHO.

Twinspool

10-25-2011, 08:45 PM

flyboy2160

10-25-2011, 09:02 PM

I still like the Olmos design much more, but I like this better than the other 3. This nose is too large and it's too 'smooth' fro my taste. But I can see why others would like this.

VTX

10-25-2011, 09:24 PM

I still like the Olmos design much more, but I like this better than the other 3. This nose is too large and it's too 'smooth' fro my taste. But I can see why others would like this.

The more I look at it the more I wonder if the angles just make the nose look large. If you look at the top view there isn't actually much in front of the wheels. It just rounds out towards the middle. I also think it doesn't help that the front quarter view looks like it was rendered with a wide angle lens, which is the same problem that the other four 1/4 scale model pictures suffer from.

kach22i

10-25-2011, 09:47 PM

Its a toy.

jinda

10-25-2011, 10:09 PM

This one is really nice. I llike much more than the other four.

Twinspool

10-25-2011, 10:28 PM

Its a toy.

Not any more than Olmos' car. That much HoF deserves vetting.

mekeys

10-25-2011, 10:36 PM

I like this one better than the four winning designs..

Mel

Flamshackle

10-25-2011, 10:48 PM

Love this design! if it got made for me it would be Xabiers then this... LOVE THE SHAPE

D2W

10-25-2011, 11:41 PM

I like the simple lines. It reminds me of the Lotus 211 that the 818 was supposed to emulate. The nose does need to be shortened and the shape reworked but this could be a winner.

Inthenameofweez

10-26-2011, 01:05 AM

High MPG car, sure. But not a rocket ship. It doesn't hit me in the face. It doesn't scream FAST or SCARY.

Sure it's pretty. But it doesn't make me want to take it off of the shelf and play with it...

Flashburn

10-26-2011, 01:13 AM

It reminds me of:

http://uncrate.com/p/2009/07/ferrari-f458-italia.jpg

Psay

10-26-2011, 02:35 AM

I agree this is a stunning design.

I have been following the 818 project for some months and sat down on Saturday in excitment for the great unveiling and to be honest was a bit disappointed. Don't get me wrong I would build any of the top 3 cars (particulary the Olmos). This however, would set my hair on fire.

legacy_y_tu

10-26-2011, 06:15 AM

Very nice design and functional to boot. The rear is sexy as hell and so is the side profile. I think the nose could benefit from some shrinking side to side. Looks a bit too bulbous to me? Other than that great design. Either Xabier's or this one make me drool.

Benji

10-26-2011, 06:44 AM

For me I love this one, the beauty is in it's simplicity and clean lines.

Wasn't there 'politics' as to why this wasn't submitted?

EDIT: Yes, I think this might have something to do with it....

http://www.facebook.com/people/Shawn-Whetstone/1336038966

kach22i

10-26-2011, 08:10 AM

Not any more than Olmos' car. That much HoF deserves vetting.
No, I really mean it is a toy for children, an adult could not possibly fit in it. An adult dwarf maybe, but it would be tight.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/#!cpZZ8QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Perspective-ht-study.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Height-Study-profile.jpg

305mouse

10-26-2011, 08:27 AM

kach22i

10-26-2011, 08:41 AM

Kach, how tall is the GTM? Surely it's lower than 4'. At least it looks like it is. How about if the seat bracket were taken off and FF had two rails built onto the floor? That would gain about another 4". Not a huge number, but every bit helps.

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/specs.html

Overall height 42.5”

Typically a race seat shell (padded) bolted to the floor, they can be made adjustable.

http://www.gtmbuild.com/parts.htm
5551

These bracket allow you to install adjustable seat track brackets in your GTM allowing the seat to stay flat on the floor allowing for maximum headroom. They are made of 6061 Aluminum and CNC cut and tumbled for a nice satin finish. (seat tracks not included, but available from FFR or Jegs)

http://www.priceofhistoys.com/page/46/
5552

I'm just posting this information for arguments sake and to answer a question, I'm not proposing the 818 have GTM style seating. People who have tried resulted in having the back of the drivers head inside of the firewall, with the steel cross bars going through the seat. There is just too short of a wheelbase in the 818 for a GTM seating arrangement.

StatGSR

10-26-2011, 08:43 AM

slopoke

10-26-2011, 08:47 AM

Juicie

10-26-2011, 08:53 AM

In my honest opinion this should have been the winning design. Sleek, elegant, fast, modern. It looks like a real global car, not a US hotweels toy like some of the others.

onyx_riddle

10-26-2011, 08:54 AM

Where the front fenders get pinched, giving it a "bulldog cheek" look, i don't quite care for. Beyond that, I adore it. There is zero denying that it was at least influenced by the 458 italia. The problem is the final car can't end up too close to that design or then Factory Five will have trouble putting it out as a fresh "original". I imagine with all their history in being the best of the best, they've learned a thing or two about copywriting. Pity, because the Italia is easily one of the sexiest cars ever built.

kach22i

10-26-2011, 09:03 AM

No offense Kach. but maybe for the sake of HoF, changes to the template might have to be a consideration. ... move the gas tank, and since the motor is flat, lower the motor and gearbox to the centerline of the rear axle, and then shorten the gearbox to a realistic length ... and the radiator .... well use your imagination. To achieve HoF may require some wholesale changes is all I'm saying. There is alot of Hof in the design submissions ... flexibility is the key to implementation ... all aspects of the design should be considered
I could be wrong, but I think the stock gas tank is being modified to sit tall, behind the seats. That is what I would do given the circumstances. The rest of your ideas could be given to working if enough money was thrown at them, again sweet and simple and reusing as much donor parts seems to be the goal here.

Benji

10-26-2011, 09:18 AM

He designed the Nemesis for RCR right?

This.

There is a reason why this design was not even ENTERED into the competition and thus why it didn't win.

305mouse

10-26-2011, 09:19 AM

So if you get rid of the oem seat rails, maybe move out the pedal assembly a little, I think it could work without the head being in the firewall. And I mean this for all entries, not just this one.

StatGSR

10-26-2011, 09:29 AM

This.

There is a reason why this design was not even ENTERED into the competition and thus why it didn't win.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but that means F5 has no "rights" to use this design as it wasn't submitted (to my knowledge). So the first step to do so would be to get Shawn on board first??? So really until that happens i see no point in all this debating.....

BipDBo

10-26-2011, 10:07 AM

I am very impressed with the Whetstone design, but if kach22i is correct, and you can't an 818 under it's skin, then it's irrelevant. It would be like buying your wife a super sexy neglige, but it's size 2 and your wife is size 10. Well, she's gonna be sleeping in sweat pants, and you going to be sleeping on the couch. If you want to bring up favorites, here are some of mine.
5555555655575558555955605561556255635564

onyx_riddle

10-26-2011, 10:21 AM

This car is turning out to be awesome. I can't wait :)

Jim Schenck

10-26-2011, 10:37 AM

riptide motorsport

10-26-2011, 10:57 AM

Its OK...thats about it for me.

3000gttom

10-26-2011, 11:16 AM

lol , could call it the 370 italia,,, but really not as good as others

scartaan

10-26-2011, 12:21 PM

I think the message here to FF5 is that there is some positive consensus for the following attributes: defined high rounded fenders, Coke bottle waist, and short overhangs front and rear. To me, these trump vents ,louvers and other points of interest in car design. This approach was used by the D-type Jaguar to good effect and it was reasonably aerodynamic.

riptide motorsport

10-26-2011, 12:26 PM

It looks like an 08 ecliipse with a redesigned nose.

VTX

10-26-2011, 01:03 PM

slopoke

10-26-2011, 02:22 PM

http://uncrate.com/p/2009/07/ferrari-f458-italia.jpg I wonder if this toy fits "THE TEMPLATE" ...

VTX

10-26-2011, 02:27 PM

I'm wager that Ferrari has a lot longer wheel base and is also wider than the 818 template.

D2W

10-26-2011, 02:38 PM

http://uncrate.com/p/2009/07/ferrari-f458-italia.jpg I wonder if this toy fits "THE TEMPLATE" ...

Wheelbase - 104.3" / Height - 47.8" I think you'll find most sportscars are around this tall, and Kach is right the roof height needs to be raised and that may ruin the proportions . Also remember that Dave want's this car to be wookie compatible, the GTM is not.

I love the 458, and you can see some similiaties to Shawn's design. You can also see some similiarities to Rodney's design.

D2W

10-26-2011, 02:41 PM

Shawn's design was submitted and voted on, no politics as the voters never even met or talked to each other. Grassroots supplied the designs to the judges with only the renderings and judges name, no other background info. I remember it as I had voted for it as my second choice behind Xabier's design.

Jim, good to see you here. Don't be a stranger and try to participate more often, I for one would love it if the designer himself would weigh in more often.

Oppenheimer

10-26-2011, 03:30 PM

Jim, good to see you here. Don't be a stranger and try to participate more often, I for one would love it if the designer himself would weigh in more often.

+1. But you need a pretty thick skin to deal with all the 'feedback'.

16g-95gsx

10-26-2011, 03:31 PM

It reminds me of:

http://uncrate.com/p/2009/07/ferrari-f458-italia.jpg

And in a way it does to me too, but I absolutely don't feel that is a bad thing. That's like saying the GTM looks like a GT40, perhaps in some instances, but who minds that?

Flamshackle

10-26-2011, 03:36 PM

It would be like buying your wife a super sexy neglige, but it's size 2 and your wife is size 10. Well, she's gonna be sleeping in sweat pants, and you going to be sleeping on the couch

HAHAHA! that was internet GOLD! i had a good old chuckle over this one :)

Oppenheimer

10-26-2011, 04:26 PM

apexanimal

10-26-2011, 04:42 PM

looks like a tesla... and, for me, that's not a great thing...

Oppenheimer

10-26-2011, 05:00 PM

looks like a tesla... and, for me, that's not a great thing...

Um, isn't a Tesla just an Elise with electric drivetrain? You don't like the Elise either?

adesilva

10-26-2011, 05:10 PM

I dont believe so, I think the Elise looks much better than the Tesla Roadster. I can see a lot of similarity in this design to the Tesla though. I feel that this design is a great starting point but I feel that its too smooth.. if needs some edgy qualities to make it look more aggressive. This looks nice but too tame for the HOF feeling

ScottKoschwitz

10-26-2011, 05:22 PM

The Tesla is basically an Elise with an electric drivetrain and a few detail changes. I toured the Lotus factory in July 2009, and saw lines of Teslas waiting to be flown to the United States. Not shipped - flown. I guess an MSRP over $100,000 allows you enough margin to do that.

bbjones121

10-26-2011, 06:45 PM

I love Shawn's design.

kitcarj

10-26-2011, 07:06 PM

I believe it is a Lotus Evora chassis and reworked body.

kach22i

10-26-2011, 07:30 PM

Wheelbase - 104.3" / Height - 47.8"
Yep, common high end sports car dimensions. Just large enough for +50 year old American males with beer belly's to be able to get into.

As far as Lotus goes, I like the original Elise better than the current insect or Tesla, but that's just me.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/164493-real-lightweights-lotus-club-meet.html

<BR>The first-gen Elise was imported in small numbers as a kit car - this one has a Type R Honda engine.
<BR>http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads3/PICT0054_jpgprep1085414865.jpg

Lotus North America is about two miles from my house, I buzz by there quite often, sometimes they leave some old stuff lying around.

A post from 2007
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/348083-lotus-spy-shots-i-just-took.html#post3285628

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads10/L21179935441.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads10/L31179935452.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads10/L51179935465.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads10/L61179935477.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads10/L71179935490.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads10/L11179935509.jpg

kach22i

10-26-2011, 07:31 PM

A reply from 2007 to the above photos..............
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/348083-lotus-spy-shots-i-just-took.html#post3285628

that's not a Lotus, it's an Opel/Vauxhall

they are made on the same chassis as the Lotus , but different body and engine

http://www.km77.com/marcas/opel/speedster_03/turbo/med/03.jpg

More from 2007
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/348083-lotus-spy-shots-i-just-took.html#post3287381

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads10/V11180010415.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads10/V21180010426.jpg

I miss my old Zebra Tracker, had it for 19-1/2 years.

SccrMan13

10-26-2011, 08:22 PM

No, I really mean it is a toy for children, an adult could not possibly fit in it. An adult dwarf maybe, but it would be tight.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/#!cpZZ8QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Perspective-ht-study.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Height-Study-profile.jpg

I am unsure what you are using as a reference point. I am going to assume you are using the wheel/tire which in stock wrx size is almost 26" not 24". Please let me know what you are using as a reference on the drawings.

kach22i

10-26-2011, 08:44 PM

I am unsure what you are using as a reference point. I am going to assume you are using the wheel/tire which in stock wrx size is almost 26" not 24". Please let me know what you are using as a reference on the drawings.
Template tires were 24", but did not include the deformation due to weight of car. I think deformation would only be the bottom 1", not a full 1-1/2" of heavier cars.

If the original illustration showed larger than 24" or 26" which was common, then there would be even more adjusting required. Of course a proper side view would put all the ratio and proportion and reverse engineering aside. I'd just do a quick overlay and be done.

In any case at nearly a foot shorter than comparable designs (which placed) it would be hard to make up.

PhyrraM

10-26-2011, 08:57 PM

Stock WRX is 205/55R16 (24.87" OD) or 215/45R17 (24.61" OD). Quoted OD sizes do not include squish and came straight from a random tire stores online calculator.

IMHO, all designs should be based on that O.D. unless FFR is planning on providing wheels and tires with the kit OR they are planning on blatently scrapping the $15,000 on the road target. Now, if those OEM sizes leave the wheelwells slightly unfilled, that's expected and OK - But they should at least be acceptable to look at.

SccrMan13

10-27-2011, 12:02 AM

I messed up. You areright the stockers are more like 25". With weight i could see that down an inch at most. Really hope the design dave goes with is clean and slick like this. There are ways to incorporate the needed vents and intakes without making it look like a auto parts store stick on hood scoops. Also i wonder why the designer said everything had been done to specs?

bbjones121

10-27-2011, 12:36 AM

kach22i

10-27-2011, 08:36 AM

StatGSR

10-27-2011, 08:56 AM

kach22i, why do you keep using those original templates? I thought the tank moved. It doesn't seem to make much sense that you would sit that high in the final design of the car. I am optimistic that you would be sitting so low that it would feel like your butt was on the road, just as I have felt sitting in a lotus, ford gt, and pantera. If the car is going to look attractive, I would think the driver is going to need to be sitting lower than shown in the original template.

^ i don't think the tank was ever considered in the template. frankly i think that many people are forgetting how short this car is, the shorter the car is the more "bubble" top it has to be, humans don't scale with the car. you can't take a car that would look great and be the size of an Aston Martin (108in wheelbase), and make it the size of an ariel atom (92.3in wheelbase) and expect the roofline to stay the same...

for an example, my integra has a 96.5" wheel base (and would still be considered a small car by most people), the 818 will have an 95" wheel base (and should have less over hang front and rear)... but even an integra has a slightly odd looking bubble roof to fit full sized people in it and even that is tricky to sit in if you are over 6' and would like to have a proper upright seating position and or wear a helmet (and my seats are already 1 inch lower than the factory seats). how do you expect the 818 to not have a similar bubble top... you just cant make a car shorter in height and shorter in wheel base and expect to keep the same size person in there, you have to keep the height reasonable, especially if it is to be wookie compatible, which is something the the elise and exige are not...
http://image.importtuner.com/f/9846291+w750+st0/0205_impp_z+acura_integra+side_view.jpg

now compare the roofline to this one... keeping in mind that the height of both is nearly identical.....
http://image.motortrend.com/f/9474943/112_0708_07z+2008_aston_martin_dbs+side_view.jpg

anybody wana make a side by side of the GTM chassis next to the 818 chassis? while maintaining accurate scaling?

BipDBo

10-27-2011, 09:04 AM

Well, to put a few recent posts together in a new way:

Originally Posted by BipDBo
"....your wife is size 10. ...you going to be sleeping on the couch"

Originally Posted by 16g-95gsx
"...but I absolutely don't feel that is a bad thing."

Aint nothin wrong with a size 10. Cars are like women:
They require lots of maintenance including a periodic fluid change.
They can be tempermental and unreliable.
A man will spend hours flipping through magazines filled with pictures of them.
A man will make tremendous sacrifices to get the right one.
They look best with dramatic curves and wide fenders.

PhyrraM

10-27-2011, 09:26 AM

...... frankly i think that many people are forgetting how short this car is, the shorter the car is the more "bubble" top it has to be, humans don't scale with the car........over 6' and would like to have a proper upright seating position and or wear a helmet .... how do you expect the 818 to not have a similar bubble top... you just cant make a car shorter in height and shorter in wheel base and expect to keep the same size person in there, you have to keep the height reasonable, especially if it is to be wookie compatible........

Exactly. This was/is the danger of targetting "exotic" types of designs. Proportions are doomed to be way off and folks will be second guessing everything. And we are. Look at all the feedback from the models as proof.

It's for these reasons I prefered designs like Marc Senger's and Scott Bradford's over the Nuephone type of supercar wannabes. The designs are completely original so the sense of proportion can be created outside of current expectations.

While I really, really like Shawns overall design (one of the best, in concept), I think it would need 30" tall wheels and 110" wheelbase to maintain proportions with a real human inside. I would really like to see a true to reality workover and be proved wrong though.

StatGSR

10-27-2011, 09:40 AM

This was/is the danger of targetting "exotic" types of designs. Proportions are doomed to be way off and folks will be second guessing everything. And we are. Look at all the feedback from the models as proof.

I agree, That and i also don't want a kit car that looks like a grand tourer but on the inside i am looking at steel, aluminum, and fiberglass. I want it to look like a toy, just like a Atom and X-Bow look like toys, because at the end of the day, that's what it is. it isn't a grand tourer, so why should it look like one?

bbjones121

10-27-2011, 02:31 PM

Am I missing something here?

5580

Why in the world does there need to be that much space? Noticed that I drew a very short person, but my point is below.

This is an enthusiast car. Are we serious about putting a plush, cushy seats in this thing? Is it really being designed for "wookie compatibility"?
I sure hope these are all jokes. This thing should have a seat slammed down to the floor just like the Lotus Elise/Exige, Pantera, or 550 Spyder. I am quickly loosing excitement for this car if it is going to be designed to be overly "comfortable" for a 6 foot+ person. I see some big people getting into Lotus Elises. Yeah... it may not be comfortable for them, but they deal with it, because that is the size that the vehicle is and they wanted it.

Let me repeat, this is a tiny wheelbase, an extremely lightweight car, it is completely out of this world to think that it should be designed to accomodate more than you would expect from a Lotus/Elise/Exige.

kach22i

10-27-2011, 02:50 PM

anybody wana make a side by side of the GTM chassis next to the 818 chassis? while maintaining accurate scaling?
Done weeks ago in another thread. Click the link, there are a lot of studies of all sorts.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/#!cpZZ4QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GTM-profile-818-overlay-photos.jpg

Am I missing something here?

Why in the world does there need to be that much space?

How much space do you want? As little as many squished designs show? No room for roof structure, moving about while trying to get in, and of course helmet wearing?

The roof in that sketch might be a little forward in response to all the designs trying to force a cab-forward design where the drivers feet are between the front wheels. The 818 is not of that seating position, more like a middle position like the Boxster. If you look at a Cayman you will see almost a similar roof profile.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/kach22i-Height-Cayman.jpg

Porsche Cayman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Cayman

Wheelbase 2,416 mm (95.1 in)
Length 2006-08: 4,372 mm (172.1 in)
2009-Present: 172.3 in (4,376 mm)
Width 1,801 mm (70.9 in)
Height 1,305 mm (51.4 in)
2009-Present Base: 51.3 in (1,303 mm)

Note: The floor structure depth of the Boxster/Cayman is about 4", plus you have upright German seating with a seat height/butt of around 7".

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Boxster-Template-more-notes.jpg

bbjones121

10-27-2011, 02:59 PM

I don't know the answer to that. In a car this size, I personally would not expect more room than you will find in the Lotus. People seem to wear a helmet in that car just fine. This sucks, I thought this car would be low like the GTM 42.5"...well maybe not that low, but at least around the Lotus at 45.6".

For reference of other exotics, Porsche GT is 46", Panteras are 43.4", Lamborghini Gallardo is 46", Ferrari Enzo 45.2", Ferrari 360 is 47.7" and Ford GT's are 44.3".

PhyrraM

10-27-2011, 04:32 PM

For reference of other exotics, Porsche GT is 46", Panteras are 43.4", Lamborghini Gallardo is 46", Ferrari Enzo 45.2", Ferrari 360 is 47.7" and Ford GT's are 44.3".

All of those use tires at least 2" taller than 24" and are much longer overall than the 818, so even if the overall height is still in the low 40" range, proportionaltly it will still be "taller". Again, you cannot obtain the same "exotic" low and lean profile. It will always be off when compared to those cars no matter what you do because of the differences in wheel height, length, and wheelbase. Maybe if you got it down to 38"-40" tall...?

Oppenheimer

10-27-2011, 04:33 PM

I think its entirely reasonable that to fit a larger person, different seating strategies would need to be employed. Aftermarket seats, special mounting brackets, etc. I also think that for more normal sized persons, having the default be to reuse the stock Subie seats is also reasonable.

If big guys gotta pay more to fit, I'm OK with that. But I think the big guys should still be able to fit.

bbjones121

10-27-2011, 05:12 PM

Here you go for wheelbase comparisons as well:
818: 95"
Enzo:104.3"
Porsche GT: 107.5"
Lotus: 90.6" (shorter than 818 and still looks good)
Pantera: 99"
Lamborghini Gallardo: 100.8"
Ford GT:107"
Ferrari 355:96.5" at 46" height (this is the most comparable)

VTX

10-27-2011, 07:29 PM

I believe that the K-1 Attack is 96" and I think it looks great. Both the Exige and Attack are examples of short wheel base cars that look great IMHO.

SW1

10-27-2011, 09:38 PM

First of all, I would like to sincerely thank everyone for your kind remarks! I enjoyed participating in this design competition in large part due to the active and enthusiastic participation on this forum. It’s always a lot of fun to design something that people are really passionate about.

I would like to also say congratulations to all who participated. Every week, I check the submissions thread and am intrigued and inspired by new designs.

I will follow up this post with several more that discuss the inspiration for the design and how this design started life as a 3 seat center drive personal project.

As a product designer and not a car stylist, I feel I can make a good argument for many aspects of this design, especially as it relates to realistic and functional proportions, ergonomics, sightlines, and overall packaging.

Lastly, perspective can blow your mind; I will provide a pure side view elevation.

-Shawn Whetstone

PhyrraM

10-27-2011, 10:06 PM

...... Both the Exige and Attack are examples of short wheel base cars that look great IMHO.

Agreed, both look good. But neither has that supercar profile. Both look good because they were designed within the limitations of the package instead of trying to make an existing profile conform to the package.

bbjones121

10-27-2011, 11:08 PM

A ferrari 355 is almost identical wheelbase and looks pretty good as well.

SW1

10-27-2011, 11:18 PM

The template was frustrating to say the least. It actually changed a couple times in the first week. I remember telling a friend, this is crazy, I have to check the template every day to see what has changed. Then there were the isometric views, I was convinced Factory Five was determined to confuse everyone. But the biggest issue was the controversial “gas tank under the seat” parameter. I debated long and hard whether or not to participate because of that one parameter. The gas tank under the seat changes EVERYTHING in a car that size from a design and packaging perspective. I thought if this was my car, I would be willing to pay extra for a custom tank behind the driver’s seat to keep the height in check. Next, Dave Smith started talking about how we shouldn’t get hung up on that one parameter, and that it may change anyway. I decided to move forward with the gas tank behind the seat because I was convinced it was the right move for this car, any hardcore enthusiast doesn’t want to be sitting 8 inches higher than the guy next to him in the Lotus Exige. In my mind the 818 should be the ultimate nemesis to the Exige: More powerful, lighter, harder to get into, better looking, less practical and just as low if not lower. The beauty of a mid engine layout is that you can sit low in the car and still have great sightlines and visibility, It also allows the ability to have a functional roll bar that doesn’t look out of place due to the fact that the driver is so nestled into the car.

Gummy

10-28-2011, 08:50 AM

SShawn,

Your design definitely set my hair on fire when I first saw it on the Grassroot Motorsports forum. I liked it so much that I set one of the Targa pics as my desktop background for a lengthy period of time. I was disappointed that your design was not selected by the judges as one of the winners, and I am grateful to the OP for casting light on your entry again.

I look forward to more pictures of your car, Shawn.

kitcarj

10-28-2011, 10:25 AM

The design is very beautiful. The funny thing is, although a lot of the cars I prefer are a lot busier, this comes across as exotic without a bunch of scoops and fins.

picaman

10-29-2011, 02:50 PM

OK I amend my choices:
1. Olmos design
2. Whetstone design
3. Anything but Factory 5 MR2 design

SW1

10-29-2011, 04:16 PM

5639

Benji

10-29-2011, 07:50 PM

So the question is, does that make Kach22i happy? ;)

I love this design. As much as I was a big fan of Xabier's design, I think this is no my favourite! Would be interesting to see this printed out on the 1/4 scale and how it would also translate into life size. There is only one thing on this design I would change but other than that it's exactly how kitcarj says it:

"this comes across as exotic without a bunch of scoops and fins."

It's beauty is in it's simplicity and most importantly it looks unique enough to me.

bbjones121

10-29-2011, 09:14 PM

Awesome Shawn! I think that Xabiers design looks nice, but this has a sexy/elegant exotic appeal to it. It seems more along the lines of future concept cars from a lot of the major sports car companies.

kach22i

10-29-2011, 09:31 PM

So the question is, does that make Kach22i happy? ;)
No, I'm not happy. I asked Shawn in a PM to overlay either a 50% male or 95% male so that I would not be the bad guy or "Template Cop". This should really be self regulating for anyone serious about design, things have to fit no matter what business you are in.

Keep in mind when you view this that a 50% male head height could be where FFR put it if the seat were bolted to the floor. Add in adjustable seat rails, and you add a couple of inches. Add in a 95% male at 6-foot tall and you need yet another 2 inches in height (4" more overall). This means even if our template fits, some adjustment would have to be made in a final design. The closer to the original template, the less painful these changes will be, and the better the chance the original character stays intact.

Link to overlay: Don't click if you don't want to see the results, nobody is forcing you to see it.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-whetstone-013.jpg

bbjones121

10-29-2011, 09:39 PM

Also remember that Dave want's this car to be wookie compatible, the GTM is not.

I just saw this. I feel that a car that is going to be designed smaller than the GTM should not be able to fit someone larger than the GTM can. I thought the hot rod fills the wookie void, not a 95" wheelbase vehicle.

PhyrraM

10-29-2011, 09:49 PM

I just saw this. I feel that a car that is going to be designed smaller than the GTM should not be able to fit someone larger than the GTM can. I thought the hot rod fills the wookie void, not a 95" wheelbase vehicle.

I completely disagree.

The goals of this car are clearly stated (but often forgot when discussing styling). The goal is to open up a larger market by using tools such as lower price of entry, world car, single donor, "younger" donor audience, etc.

How can you expand the market when you even further restrict who can fit in the final product?

I can't see many folks that are not already in the FFR family actually cross shopping the 818 and the Hot Rod. Quite the opposite...The new 818 owners will get to see that the FFR community is indeed a family...that will lead to the consideration of another FFR based project that would never have been on the table before.

bbjones121

10-29-2011, 10:24 PM

Add in adjustable seat rails, and you add a couple of inches.
I don't want anyone else driving my car.

Add in a 95% male at 6-foot tall and you need yet another 2 inches in height (4" more overall).
That is what the convertible version is for. ;)

It doesn't look like Shawn's design needs to be raised that much. I think it looks good the way it is and I don't understand why you think that it is not.

Many other manufacturers are able to create a beautiful car with around a 95" wheelbase and 45" height (ground clearances are pretty close as well). I started researching this, many models of ferrari, every single Lotus I can think of (yes, even the "large" Esprit), the Noble M400, K1-attack, several Porsche's, many Lamborghini's (the Lamborghini Countach has a wheelbase of 96.4" with a ride height of 42.13"!!!), etc. all have similar wheelbase and ride heights to what FFR could make with Shawn's design. The more I research this, the more I realize how ridiculous it is that we are even arguing about the ability for FFR to make a car with a wheelbase of 95" with a ride height around 45."

I wouldn't think it to be that difficult to modify the chassis to have a lower top bar. kach22i, I know you want to base these criticisms off of templates that apparently went through several revisions during the design competition, but I fully believe that FFR will make a car that looks AWESOME! A car that is dis-proportionally bubbled in the middle to account for a template that was issued back during the design competition is not making a car that looks AWESOME. If the car is going to be AWESOME, some decisions on that template may have to be made.

Again...how in the world do all those manufactures create AWESOME cars with such small dimensions, but it isn't possible to think that FFR can.

bbjones121

10-29-2011, 10:27 PM

I completely disagree.

What do you disagree with?
A "feeling" that I have about a car smaller than the GTM, not being able to fit someone larger than can fit in the GTM or that the Hot Rod can fit a wookie?

Hope to expand the market for larger drivers with a vehicle that is smaller than the GTM? I think I am not understanding something correctly.

I have seen a 6'4" guy fitting into a Lotus Exige. Probably uncomfortable, but it happened. If you want it to work, you can make it work.

I think you should be able to spend a little more for some modifications to make it work for a taller/larger bodied individual or take the top off, but it is not a large vehicle and should not be assumed to accommodate a large person. The general "world" would not imagine it being built for a larger driver. I don't understand where that logic comes from. I know there are several of you (95%+ males) making comments on these forums because this is an opportunity for your voices to be heard and they are being heard, but it is very very very very uncommon to see a taller/larger person driving a vehicle this small. To think that this could not be a "world" car without meeting the 95% male size is extremely absurd.

bobzdar

10-30-2011, 09:49 AM

The 355 can fit a 6'4" driver comfortably (verifiied by an owner) and maybe taller, so lets see the template overlay on a 355.

slopoke

10-30-2011, 10:08 AM

how the h*ll did all those drivers EVER fit in a GT40???

slopoke

10-30-2011, 10:14 AM

if you build a frame for a barn ... it's not gonna turn out to be the Taj Mahal ....

PhyrraM

10-30-2011, 10:23 AM

What do you disagree with?

I disagree with the idea that it would be OK for this car to have a smaller market than the GTM when FFR has clearly stated the opposite.

bbjones121

10-30-2011, 11:20 AM

Where did I say that? Did that come from a long awaited chance to just say you disagree with me again. If I remember correctly, you also think it is impossible to make an exotic looking car with the design goals.

I think it is just silly to think this will attract a larger market by making it fit extra tall/large people. Just the size of it alone is a detractor to these people. To change that idea or generalization in peoples minds around the world will take more than a clever marketing strategy.

Maybe we could invent a machine like that used in the movie Inception. So that by the time this car is produced, the market of taller/larger people will be brain washed into thinkibg a car like this was made for them.

Twinspool

10-30-2011, 11:21 AM

how the h*ll did all those drivers EVER fit in a GT40???

Gurney bumps!

adesilva

10-30-2011, 11:23 AM

I disagree with the idea that it would be OK for this car to have a smaller market than the GTM when FFR has clearly stated the opposite.

Agreed, if this car were to sell less than the GTM it would have to be considered a failure in the eyes of FF. How many GTMs are really out there .. .500?1000?

This car is meant to be a world car so its obvious that they are trying to increase the amount of people purchasing their kits. At the 10k price point im sure they are not making a huge amount on each one as well so they will need to sell large quantities in order to make money

bbjones121

10-30-2011, 11:49 AM

I agree with that also. To sell less than the GTM would be a disaster. I merely do not think there is a very large market out there of 95%+ males looking for a car this size. Maybe I am wrong.

VD2021

10-30-2011, 12:07 PM

Agreed, if this car were to sell less than the GTM it would have to be considered a failure in the eyes of FF. How many GTMs are really out there .. .500?1000?

Less than 400 kits have been sold and to date less than 100 of those are known to be complete.

adesilva

10-30-2011, 12:23 PM

Less than 400 kits have been sold and to date less than 100 of those are known to be complete.

Thank you for the closer figure. That only furthers my point that this car has to sell a lot more than the GTM.

I also really enjoyed looking at your build log :)

skullandbones

10-30-2011, 01:30 PM

The comparison is a little skewed. The price of the 818 will be half the cost of a GTM kit. However, the total outlay will be probably less than one third of that of a GTM. From what I am seeing on the GTM build threads that may be a conservative comparison. So if you look at the most likely person to buy a 818 (middle of the normal curve), that same person will almost never buy a GTM probablility wise. You are looking at a completely different population of customers. My point is: GTM buyers are by definition a small target market. The target market for the 818 is going to be hugh (has to be). So the appeal for the product will probably be some sort of compromise. But I think I still would consider the final product even if it doesn't meet every detail of my dream car. WEK.

VD2021

10-30-2011, 03:50 PM

Thank you for the closer figure. That only furthers my point that this car has to sell a lot more than the GTM.

I also really enjoyed looking at your build log :)

No worries. There are some great discussions taking place in regards to the 818. It may end up in my garage too.

kach22i

10-30-2011, 07:00 PM

..........Many other manufacturers are able to create a beautiful car with around a 95" wheelbase and 45" height
Look at those interiors, very low to the floor custom seats is the answer, not a big mystery.

Early on I said the FFR template as drawn would lead to a 48" tall car (posted an image), you say 45".

Is 3 inches really worth hi-jacking a tread over?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing Shawn took the 3 inch tall gas tank relocation as a green light to lower his car 3 inches (fine with me). If you use a racing seat with thin padding, you can do this by restricting use, to no tall people allowed.

If you want to meet the FFR goals, a $5,000 donor Legacy 2.5L 170 hp engine using stock seats, steering column and other parts to mate to a $10,000 kit, then that is your base starting point. The starting point fitting 95% of potential buyers may be roughly a 52" tall car using stock seats, about 1/2" taller than a Porsche Cayman.

If you want light weight racing seats, a 3.5L turbo from a limited edition late model car, then be prepared to pay more.

If I'm saying anything unexpected or out of line, just let me know.

As far as I know FFR has not announced if stock seats are going to be used. The WRX seat David H. did his test fitting with may have been something just lying around the shop. The only car I've ever tested to a taller template than the FFR height is my own 7th design. It was the slightest of changes to make it work at around 51" high, and still looked good to me.

PHATsuby

10-30-2011, 08:51 PM

this car definitely gets my vote. Looks awesome!

Ben

bbjones121

10-30-2011, 10:04 PM

Problem solved.
Get lower rails for stock WRX seats (yes they sell these)
You can remove the rails and bold directly to floor
Scrap the WRX seats, sell them on ebay, make some money and buy a pair of racing seats for $500(for both)

Problem solved, you get a nicely proportioned car and you don't hit the ceiling.

Lets get FFR to not bubble up the roof and make the car look goofy for something that is not a big deal... or we can keep arguing with everyone who is making some pretty sweet designs. As I have stated before if you read, there are many other car manufacturers that have figured these wheelbase and height dimensions out and created some beautiful cars, so lets stop thinking FFR can not do it as well.

If they have not decided to use the stock seats yet, than this thread was hijacked long ago by someone that assumed they were going to use those seats.

bbjones121

10-30-2011, 10:11 PM

I love Shawn's design. I really like the fact that there is some effort to keep a little space in the front trunk. That would be perfect for a weekend suitcase or fabric roof top.

kach22i

10-31-2011, 07:05 AM

Problem solved.
Get lower rails for stock WRX seats

That might be a solution for designs now conforming to the template, not for designs which did not allow for proper head room or have been lowered 3" based on a good faith assumption.

I only wish integrated design were as easy as solving one problem at a time without consideration for anything else. You have to consider vehicle access too, and if you seat people like you do in the GTM (on the floor or there-abouts), and then have your side diagonal chassis bar roughly twice as high, you might not be able to get into or out of the car easily.

The diagonal bar might be lowered, the seat might be lowered, all these things are open to conjecture because none of us here on the forum have any say or control over where things are put.

Cost and David using a WRX seat for a photo were not the only reasons I thought an elevated or near stock height is likely to be used. The puzzle is three dimensional and interactive, if it weren't I'd find myself bored and uninterested.

Example: 6'-4" tall drivers accommodated, sitting more or less on the floor, with top of roll bar at about 45" tall. I don't need to strain my brain figuring out where Shawn got his seating layout from. It helps to be able to drop yourself into a bucket like this one without climbing over tall side bars.

http://www.zukun.com/nemesis/nemesis-rendering1.html

SW1

10-31-2011, 10:28 AM

Kach22i:

After reviewing many of your posts, it has become clear that my vision for the 818 and many others is much different than yours. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I see this car as a serious enthusiasts car, the kind of car that looks so good and performs so well that you’re more than willing to put up with some issues that you would not tolerate if this was your everyday Honda Accord.

My Targa design is a couple inches taller than the GTM, therefore my design would accommodate those that are potentially 4 inches taller than the current GTM. I imagine the base car would come with a very inexpensive no frills fixed fiberglass race style seat that is bolted in place on or nearly on the floor. I think it would be nearly impossible to meet the weight goals if a stock WRX seats were used. High sills are inevitable with this style of steel space-frame when good torsional stiffness and low weight are crucial. The more difficult the car is to enter the more enjoyable it is to drive; The owner of the car will develop a good technique and better abs, Everybody wins.

kach22i

10-31-2011, 11:17 AM

Kach22i:

After reviewing many of your posts, it has become clear that my vision for the 818 and many others is much different than yours. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

................I imagine the base car would come with a very inexpensive no frills fixed fiberglass race style seat that is bolted in place on or nearly on the floor.

My "vision" is not much more than an educated guess of what FFR's intent is. If FFR provides a template which shows an upright seating position and later someone sits a WRX seat in it, then I can only make a guess, with no personal design decision involved.

You are free to imagine a "no frills fixed fiberglass race style seat" in a street car with global markets in mind if you wish. However, I see no indicators which would lead me to a similar conclusion.

EDIT: I take that back, one indicator if you read between the lines is that when FFR painted on some detail to Jim's scheme, they trimmed the windshield down saying it was mistakenly or inaccurately made too long (high). This tells me they may lower the seating position, or at least they are studying it.

Agree to disagree........yep.

ElderDragon

10-31-2011, 12:04 PM

I also really like the Whetstone design. To me it seems to be a distillation of the 818 spirit: elegant simplicity focused on the experience of driving and performance without complexity. The Whetstone design and the Olmos design are the two stand-outs with Whetstone more refined and Olmos more aggressive.

I am curious about people who talk about not fitting in the GTM. I really wanted to build a GTM but the forward visibility is so poor that I could not imagine driving it. You can see better out the back than the front of that car! I am only 6'2" so I cannot imagine how someone who is 6'4" could possible drive the GTM.

bobzdar

10-31-2011, 02:48 PM

That might be a solution for designs now conforming to the template, not for designs which did not allow for proper head room or have been lowered 3" based on a good faith assumption.

I only wish integrated design were as easy as solving one problem at a time without consideration for anything else. You have to consider vehicle access too, and if you seat people like you do in the GTM (on the floor or there-abouts), and then have your side diagonal chassis bar roughly twice as high, you might not be able to get into or out of the car easily.

The diagonal bar might be lowered, the seat might be lowered, all these things are open to conjecture because none of us here on the forum have any say or control over where things are put.

Cost and David using a WRX seat for a photo were not the only reasons I thought an elevated or near stock height is likely to be used. The puzzle is three dimensional and interactive, if it weren't I'd find myself bored and uninterested.

Example: 6'-4" tall drivers accommodated, sitting more or less on the floor, with top of roll bar at about 45" tall. I don't need to strain my brain figuring out where Shawn got his seating layout from. It helps to be able to drop yourself into a bucket like this one without climbing over tall side bars.

http://www.zukun.com/nemesis/nemesis-rendering1.html

Here you go, 95" wheelbase, 46" height (stock, can be lowered 2" or so with stock adjustable suspension). Driver is not sitting on the floor. Will comfortably fit a 6'4" driver (according to an owner of that height with one) and up to a 6'5" driver with helmet on. Does not look like anything magical or difficult about it. No sitting on the floor, sills not overly wide etc. Why don't you overlay your template on a 355 and see how it fits? If it doesn't fit, I'd say you might want to revisit the template...

http://www.dennigcars.org/models/pictures/ferrari_355_interior.jpg

kach22i

10-31-2011, 03:29 PM

Why don't you overlay your template on a 355 and see how it fits?
First off it's not my template, it's the FFR template, I only added a larger 95% male over the 50% male by lowering seat (just as you seem to be suggesting), and left the head height alone.

In general a Ferrari's seats are low, at least compared to the upright German seating position of a Porsche. From what I can tell the WRX seats have a 6"-7" seat height, this is very similar to a Porsche (I measured mine).

I think you need to see the seats in question, I've asked before for Subie owner's to measure their seats for me, but no one answered my call.

First some leather covered WRX seats (best photos I could find).

http://ww.leatherseats.com/WRX_leather_kit.asp
5703

http://ww.leatherseats.com/images/specialty_pages/WRX/WRX_leather_kit12.JPG
5704

Ferrari, love that color.
http://gtcarlot.com/data/Ferrari/355/1999/33080802/interior.html
5705

Let's say the Subie for argument's sake has a 7" seat height (installed), and the Ferrari a 4" seat height. It would be fair to say there is a 3" difference. Therefore a car which was estimated to be 48" tall (FFR 818), can now be 45" tall, right?

Do you have any idea how much sport seats like this cost?

The budget on this car is getting tossed all over the place. I thought it was supposed to be a $5,000 Legacy donor non turbo 2.5L, now people in other threads are assuming an $11,000 turbo WRX.

The seats are one silly stupid way to keep the costs down. Just saying.

Will comfortably fit a 6'4" driver (according to an owner of that height with one) and up to a 6'5" driver with helmet on........ a 355
I would like to see photos of that, I think that era car is very cramped by todays standards.

Here are my pictures of a Ferrrari 308, yea, my wookie buddy fits so I guess you must be right bobzdar (sarcasm).
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Exotic%20Cars/Barry-Ferrari-D1.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Exotic%20Cars/Barry-Ferrari-D2.jpg

Sorry about the hi-jack Shawn.

EDIT-1: I like this photo too.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Exotic%20Cars/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Exotic%20Cars/IMGP0028.jpg

EDIT-2:
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/818-frame-measurements.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/818-frame-measurements-DETAIL.jpg

Oppenheimer

10-31-2011, 04:15 PM

kach22i

10-31-2011, 04:25 PM

Not that it matters, but the donor was always planned to be a WRX (with the idea that non-turbo Subie power could also be used). The FFR $5K estimate for donor cost was based on a wrecked WRX, not a Legacy or Impreza RS.
Thank you for the clarification Oppenheimer. It was hard keeping up with all the tech talk and options in some of those old threads.

FYI: The Ferrari 308 is only 44" tall, not everyone fits.

http://magnum-mania.com/Articles/The_Ferrari.html

The Ferraris used in the show had to be specially modified to accomodate Tom Selleck, who stands 6'4" tall. The padding was removed from the seats so he would sit lower in the car, and the seats were bolted as far away from the steering wheel as possible to maximize the leg room. Even with these modifications you can still see that Selleck's head is higher than the top of the front windshield frame! You very rarely saw Magnum drive with the top up.

flytosail

10-31-2011, 04:50 PM

No, I'm not happy. I asked Shawn in a PM to overlay either a 50% male or 95% male so that I would not be the bad guy or "Template Cop". This should really be self regulating for anyone serious about design, things have to fit no matter what business you are in.

Keep in mind when you view this that a 50% male head height could be where FFR put it if the seat were bolted to the floor. Add in adjustable seat rails, and you add a couple of inches. Add in a 95% male at 6-foot tall and you need yet another 2 inches in height (4" more overall). This means even if our template fits, some adjustment would have to be made in a final design. The closer to the original template, the less painful these changes will be, and the better the chance the original character stays intact.

Link to overlay: Don't click if you don't want to see the results, nobody is forcing you to see it.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-whetstone-013.jpg

Could you do a 5-9 driver?

mekeys

10-31-2011, 10:00 PM

kach22i

11-01-2011, 08:02 AM

5711

This is my favorite design..I didn't find out until the contest was over that it wasn't submitted,because i posted it on FF and not on grassroots..click small picture for a bigger picture..

Mel
Mel, a nice direction although I think an open top version or something like Shawn did with the top side bars would be more on target. Also true fastbacks are almost impossible to do with the FFR template without a lot of excess metal/fiberglass above the rear wheels. Your car looks to be as low as Shawn's, which of course the majority of submitted designs seem to be.

Did you do any true side (ortho) views?

mekeys

11-01-2011, 09:42 PM

Hi kach22i
I appreciate you comment.No i didn't do a side view.Which is strange for me because I have a folder where I have done over 500 designs which are all side views..I just did this one in haste to post.However because most of the ones posted are done with a computer I was pretty sure no one would pay attention to one done with a pencil on a line ruled pad.Most of the submitted entries look Fantastic.So I didn't do any more sketches.I know you have been sticking to the "TEMPLATE",
but I think for a 95 inch wheelbase car the overall height doesn't need to be any higher than 42 inches.I have used as my target the Porsche 550 spyder and it's only an 83" W.B.and pretty low and some are being built with engines other than a V.W.(think subie).To go from a coupe to a roadster shouldn't be a problem.

Mel

kach22i

11-02-2011, 08:41 AM

but I think for a 95 inch wheelbase car the overall height doesn't need to be any higher than 42 inches.I have used as my target the Porsche 550 spyder and it's onl
Mel, you are old enough to have seen 550's on the road "in the day", so I assume you know what you are getting into. My Porsche is about 52" tall and you would not believe how much my little car gets bullied on the road. For example, recently a little old lady in a Ford Explorer behind me got all confused when our single lane road had extra room on the side for a bike path. She decided it was a good idea to drive in my blind spot about 2-feet off my rear bumper because my little car was not filling up the road, and just did not deserve a full lane. Not only was she in the bike path but there was no safety distance, the other cars behind her were just as alarmed as me and stayed way back. It's crazy out there, be careful.

mekeys

11-02-2011, 09:05 AM

kach22i

11-02-2011, 10:31 AM

Well George do you plan to give up driving your Porsche ?.Anyway I have a project I should be working on.I have a mould from a car I designed in 1960 and I have a chassis so now all I need is a place to work on it..Picture of my car is in and earlier thread the one you just posted in this morning..(11/2/11)page one..

Mel Keys

I'd like to have a better Porsche (mine is very entry level), but will not give up the old one before a new one is in the driveway.

I too have dreams of building my own car body, an 818 type car is something I've thought about for years, long before there was an 818 or before I knew about FFR.

I need more time, money and a larger garage..............that's all, and I'm home free.:D

EDIT-1: I measured how tall my old 911 is, got 49-1/2" not 52", might be time sag or lower than original stock tires. Or the car is sitting in the gravel ruts, will have to measure again on flat pavement.

bbjones121

11-02-2011, 10:32 AM

kach22i

11-02-2011, 10:37 AM

We are worried about this car not being tall enough that other drivers can see it? We have gone down this road before and I say if you are worried about that, then you should not be behind the wheel of the 818. You may not want to be on the road at all if it scares you that much.
It should scare you enough to be a defensive driver, otherwise it could be dangerous for everyone including yourself.

http://www.motoristpassion.com/2011/09/defensive-driving-basic-essential-tips.html
5727

Niburu

11-03-2011, 03:08 PM

I drive a Miata regularly, I am quite aware of what it's like to drive around in a small invisible car.
I suspect not being noticed won't be an issue in the 818 though.

bbjones121

11-04-2011, 11:49 AM

Bump for my favorite smooth exotic design

bbjones121

11-06-2011, 01:01 PM

Hey Shawn, what are the chances that you have this in a 3d format to get printed?

miznitic

11-06-2011, 02:47 PM

I definitely like this design most of all. The other designs just don't quite do it for me, but this one, I would most definitely cause me to whip out the chequebook.

ScottKoschwitz

11-06-2011, 03:11 PM

Assuming this design is technically feasible, of all the designs, THIS design (especially the targa) makes me reach for my checkbook the most.

SW1

11-06-2011, 10:23 PM

Hey Shawn, what are the chances that you have this in a 3d format to get printed?

Hey Guys: Again thanks for all the wonderful compliments!

The images uploaded to this forum were rendered in V-Ray and modeled in Rhino. Rhino is a 3D nurbs surface modeler similar to Alias which can can export all the stardard formats such as iges, step, stl, etc.

At work we use Rhino for quick ID concept generation and visualization. Generally our production intent deliverables are done in Solid Works or Pro-E depending on client preference; however, we routinely use Rhino geometry for CNC or SLA appearance and breadboard models. In some cases we use Rhino surface geometry for final tooling. The 818 concept is a very clean surface model and could easily be printed.

And yes the design is 100% technically feasible especially now that the gas tank is going to be located behind the seats instead of beneath the seats. Honestly, every dimension was scrutinized and based on realistic measurements for this type of vehicle.

Thanks for your Support!
-Shawn

bbjones121

11-07-2011, 12:27 AM

Hey FFR. Sounds like this would be 3d printer ready and avoid the time involved with making the model.

2KWIK4U

11-07-2011, 07:19 PM

Really like this in a targa top!

bbjones121

11-10-2011, 12:08 AM

Got more votes than any model so far. It is kind of unfair to vote on concept drawings against real models.

RM1SepEx

11-10-2011, 08:05 PM

sweet design, I'd buy a targa in a minute

Shawns, The Vantage, or Xabier's would all be sweet as my next big garage projets....

mekeys

11-13-2011, 09:35 AM

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc465/mekeys/img323_1.jpg

This is my favorite design.Just imagine it in full glorious living color.When I came up with designs I liked I usually made and 1/8 scale model from balsa wood and painted them.. because I am a computer dummy..

Mel

kach22i

11-13-2011, 10:16 AM

Mel, I bet you like the Jaguar XJ13 too.
http://www.twrreplicas.com/xj13.html

Someone is making a coupe.
http://www.shapecraft.com/jag2.html

bbjones121

11-13-2011, 11:21 AM

I like shawns design. Mel, I am just not into that. The front reminds me of a catfish. This is Shawns thread by the way.

mekeys

11-13-2011, 01:14 PM

I like the coupe the best.But they both are a little dated.

I thought this was a thread started by wooward..Asking about our favorite designs.I didb't know I wasn't allowed to make comments on it....

(catfish ???) I guess I forgot the whiskers..

Mel

bbjones121

11-13-2011, 01:45 PM

I thought this was a thread started by wooward..Asking about our favorite designs.

Maybe different thread, read the title of this one.

mekeys

11-13-2011, 02:01 PM

oops

Mel

bbjones121

11-15-2011, 03:11 PM

Looks like this could be an option that people prefer second to rodneys design in latest pole. Does anyone have suggestions on it? It seems like most people like as is.

mekeys

11-15-2011, 04:00 PM

I actually like Shawn's design a lot I picked it out why back when before the "EXPERT" judges picked the others..I would like to see a little crease or a small vent etc. just to break up the large expanses of area on the side and the hood..

Mel

Niburu

11-16-2011, 09:29 AM

The only thing I'd wanna change would be all the little LED lights in the headlamps.
I don't know about other states, but in VA if one of those lights is out the cars will fail the safety inspection.
Plus I hate them in general anyway, they're showing up in KIA headlights now.

BipDBo

11-16-2011, 09:44 AM

This is definately one of my favorites. I'm liking it more and more. I typically don't like unnessessary creases or anything that "breaks up" a smooth body. I like large expanses of smooth body. This is a very sleek, smooth looking body. It looks equally as good functional and buildable in roadster and coupe.

Aesthetically, one thing I don't really like is the front opening. I just don't like how the front edge of the fenders curve aound to make the sides of the opening. It's just weird looking IMO.

Funtionally, I am a big fan of vertical dischrage through the hood, as you can tell by my plethora of posts on this. I have probably beat this horse well. The intakes for the intercoolers might be insufficient, but that would have to be determined with wind tunnel or FEA. This area is typically under negative pressure, but on the other hand, the engine compartment will ventilate out through the back, which is probably more under negative pressure, so it may work just fine.

slopoke

11-16-2011, 10:56 AM

This car ... this piece of art, where form follows function, its understated, effortless grace ... how could you NOT like it? It reminds me of the venerable classic Porsche 904. It would be a travesty if someone DIDN'T build this car ... build it from the ground up if necessary, but build it. True, it's probably not a car for everyone, but truely unique and classic cars rarely are. I'd love to have one in my garage ... right next to Rodney's and Vman's ... Just my $.02 Dave

2KWIK4U

11-16-2011, 07:07 PM

This is my favorite design too. It is very smooth and classy looking, an instant classic in the making.

GUNS

11-16-2011, 08:06 PM

This is one of my favorites and was my favorite during the competition. I go back and forth between this design and Rodney's as my current favorite. I think this car has a better overall cohesion and a classier design. Well done with this and I'd be happy to have it sitting in my garage.

bbjones121

11-18-2011, 01:27 AM

The elegant integration of the vents and overall shape of this car make it look like a future exotic prototype. I can't say that about any of the other designs except maybe Neuphones sketches (we have yet to see details added on the model).

bbjones121

11-18-2011, 01:35 AM

Shawn, do you have any different view points of the targa and convertible? maybe front straight on and front looking down at an angle?

thestigwins

11-18-2011, 03:21 AM

This car is absolutely beautiful. I would build it in a heartbeat. I also like Rodneys design, However this design is something that I can see looking good 30 years from now.

bbjones121

11-18-2011, 10:03 AM

That is what I am thinking. Jims design already looks old, xabiers will look old in 5 years, I think rodneys is getting away from the sleek curves it once had, I think nuephones had potential from what is shown in the sketches. Shawns design by far seems to follow what many concept cars are beginning to look like. Simple and elegant. Expensive exotics are looking more and more like they are integrating air vents and scoops into designs just as Shawn does, subtly into the curves.

SW1

11-20-2011, 06:57 PM

Shawn, do you have any different view points of the targa and convertible? maybe front straight on and front looking down at an angle?

bbjones121: Unfortunately I don’t have any other views rendered up. The only thing I have that you have not already seen is a high down force version with more consideration for airflow on the track, but unfortunately it’s not quite ready for prime time, Thanks for the interest!

SW1

11-20-2011, 06:58 PM

Some of you have inquired about high res images.

Here is a link to photobucket where I have uploaded high res images for both the Red Roadster and the Silver Targa.

http://s1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/Shawn%20Whetstone%20818%20High%20Res%20images/

Vman7

11-20-2011, 07:12 PM

I still don't know why Shawn's car didn't win at least in the top 4. Shawn planned everything out well. Only thing I can think of the design might have been too low in overall height to work with the orig. template, but that's an easy fix to make this design work. The main thing I like about Shawn's design is he kept it simple, modern, but yet still has somewhat of a classic look as well.

David

GUNS

11-20-2011, 07:31 PM

bbjones121: Unfortunately I don’t have any other views rendered up. The only thing I have that you have not already seen is a high down force version with more consideration for airflow on the track, but unfortunately it’s not quite ready for prime time, Thanks for the interest!

I would LOVE to see this!

Cooluser23

11-21-2011, 12:02 AM

The 808 look much better than the "winning" desings. Wish we had the better looking cars win. :(

bromikl

11-21-2011, 08:49 AM

So many great designs. This one is a work of art. Very well done, Shawn.

I'm still firmly in Rodney's camp, but I feel this could be a design for a third party body developer.

DrieStone

11-21-2011, 10:34 AM

So many great designs. This one is a work of art. Very well done, Shawn.

I'm still firmly in Rodney's camp, but I feel this could be a design for a third party body developer.

Agreed. I would have no issues purchasing an 818 with Shawn's design. It's totally different from Rodney's, but still very cool. My needle points towards Rodney's design, but it's like trying to choose your favorite flavor of ice cream.

bbjones121

11-21-2011, 11:26 AM

High down force version?! That sounds awesome.

bbjones121

11-22-2011, 01:02 AM

I think the fact that this design gets lots of votes and that nobody really has comments to change it says a lot.

crackedcornish

11-22-2011, 09:30 AM

I think the fact that this design gets lots of votes and that nobody really has comments to change it says a lot.

I've seen a few people comment on the front that has been likened to "jowls" and I tend to agree with not liking the (rounded) way the front fenders wrap in towards the front grille opening, but haven't seen any offers to change it up any

...and I would like to see some confirmation from FFR as to the floor to roof height needed to fit the chassis

I haven't really followed this one that closely though, as it's a bit too vanilla for my tastes..but I do think it would be an excellent car for the MPG version if it actually can be made at the current roof height

bbjones121

11-22-2011, 09:53 AM

I've seen a few people comment on the front that has been likened to "jowls" and I tend to agree with not liking the (rounded) way the front fenders wrap in towards the front grille opening, but haven't seen any offers to change it up any

...and I would like to see some confirmation from FFR as to the floor to roof height needed to fit the chassis

I haven't really followed this one that closely though, as it's a bit too vanilla for my tastes..but I do think it would be an excellent car for the MPG version if it actually can be made at the current roof height

Sorry you are correct, but there are very very few comments to change it.

crackedcornish

11-22-2011, 10:29 AM

Sorry you are correct, but there are very very few comments to change it.

OK, I'll add some now that I've looked a little more closely at the pix

I've already mentioned the front fender/grille area and the possible roof height question, so here are a couple more things...needs a vent in the hood for the radiator to exhaust, the rear looks bulbous, it needs more air into and out of the engine compartment without doing either from underneath, and I would lose the arches going over the windows on the targa version so it doesn't look like a jungle gym

not that I think any of these changes will be tried out :rolleyes:

bbjones121

11-22-2011, 10:34 AM

OK, I'll add some now that I've looked a little more closely at the pix

I've already mentioned the front fender/grille area and the possible roof height question, so here are a couple more things...needs a vent in the hood for the radiator to exhaust, the rear looks bulbous, it needs more air into and out of the engine compartment without doing either from underneath, and I would lose the arches going over the windows on the targa version so it doesn't look like a jungle gym

not that I think any of these changes will be tried out :rolleyes:

These are great suggestions if they were needed. They are already part of the design. Try to zoom in on the feature comments on the design. The radiator has vents already and the engine has two large side intakes.

Oppenheimer

11-22-2011, 10:37 AM

I kind of like the Jungle Gym arches of the targa. It seems very functional to me.

crackedcornish

11-22-2011, 10:58 AM

from what understand the exhaust for the radiator needs to be at least 1.5 (or something like that) larger than the intake size, so unless the opening for the radiator is tiny those side vents are inadequate.

I couldn't quite make out if those were scoops in the B pillars or not..I'll have to take a look at the hi-res images

even in lo-res it has a fat/high butt and it also looks like the door edges will be up around your ears

oppy...they might be useful to pull yourself up out of this since evidently, you will be sitting on the floor or really close to it, but for a targa I would want a totally open feel. I can already get the caged in feeling from my jeep

kach22i

11-22-2011, 11:17 AM

oppy...they might be useful to pull yourself up out of this since evidently, you will be sitting on the floor or really close to it, but for a targa I would want a totally open feel. I can already get the caged in feeling from my jeep
My Geo Tracker had the same caged in feeling, which was fine for what it was and I agree with you on the other point as well.

Shawn has a very nice design, if someone told me it was the next Tesla or future affordable exotic from Europe (Opel) I would believe them.

His design is not dependent on being super low to look good, it just looks better that way.

I trust Shawn does not mind that I did a crude study to raise his car a few inches. I was curious, that's all.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/modified-whetstone-side-black.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-modified-whetstone-side-black.jpg

The true strength of a design is how many changes it survives and still looks good. At least that is what I tell myself when a client changes one of my building designs and sends me into lala land having a fit. I've learned to live with it, if the check don't bounce I'm happy.

crackedcornish

11-22-2011, 11:33 AM

My Geo Tracker had the same caged in feeling, which was fine for what it was and I agree with you on the other point as well.

Shawn has a very nice design, if someone told me it was the next Tesla or future affordable exotic from Europe (Opel) I would believe them.

His design is not dependent on being super low to look good, it just looks better that way.

I trust Shawn does not mind that I did a crude study to raise his car a few inches. I was curious, that's all.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/modified-whetstone-side-black.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-modified-whetstone-side-black.jpg

The true strength of a design is how many changes it survives and still looks good. At least that is what I tell myself when a client changes one of my building designs and sends me into lala land having a fit. I've learned to live with it, if the check don't bounce I'm happy.

actually raising the roof a couple of inches my have the side benefit of making the rear end look a bit lower too

kach22i

11-22-2011, 12:21 PM

Another alteration - Targa.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/modified-whetstone-side-targa2.jpg

Xusia

11-22-2011, 12:55 PM

To me, this is how a true targa should be: With a fully open top (i.e. no rails above the windows). Just stating a preference. I could live with the previous design as well. :)

thestigwins

11-22-2011, 03:12 PM

I like the idea of the rails on the top. The added benefit of making sure the window seals nicely is a big one to me. It is so easy to break into my convertible by just pulling the window outward and sticking something in and hitting the power unlock button. This will also allow you to have a roll cage.

vozproto

11-22-2011, 03:48 PM

Targa or not, I think we will need those rails for the structural stability of the car.

This actually reminds me of a friend that was driving his Dad's 300zx turbo T-top back in high school.
Over-ran a turn went off the road, off a burm and landed all 4 wheels down.

He breathed a sigh of relief when he saw that there wasn't a dent or scratch on the car to be seen.

And then he tried to put the t-top sections back in. Let's just say the operative term here is "tried."

kach22i

11-22-2011, 04:09 PM

Targa or not, I think we will need those rails for the structural stability of the car.
They (the rails/arches) will help hold the windshield on in a crash/roll-over (and not fold in on you), but it's not a unibody frame by any stretch of the imagination.

vozproto

11-22-2011, 04:20 PM

They (the rails/arches) will help hold the windshield on in a crash/roll-over (and not fold in on you), but it's not a unibody frame by any stretch of the imagination.

True and true.
But it also lends itself to the torsional rigidity of the frame. Being that Dave was saying how stiff this chassis was going to be, its almost a given in my mind that they would stay.

If you look at the typical convertible versions of a sports car, it ends up gaining about 300 lbs just to dial in the torsional rigidity they lose by removing the roof. Torsional rigidity is quite paramount if you are interested in going after Lotus Elise territory without the massive stiffening rear hoop the Elise has.

Xusia

11-22-2011, 04:23 PM

The roadster doesn't have these, and I've heard they've done well in roll over crashes. We also know this chassis is stiffer. Based on these bits, I don't see those rails as necessary.

kach22i

11-22-2011, 04:29 PM

But it also lends itself to the torsional rigidity of the frame.
I'm not an expert but as I understand it the plastic skin clipped to the frame hold no structural loads, it's all in the steel tube frame.

If the arches were to become part of the frame or roll bar system then yes, I see them adding strength as you mention.

How much weight (and safety) do you want to add up there?

vozproto

11-22-2011, 04:42 PM

I'm not an expert but as I understand it the plastic skin clipped to the frame hold no structural loads, it's all in the steel tube frame.

If the arches were to become part of the frame or roll bar system then yes, I see them adding strength as you mention.

Right. I envisioned the arches to actually be tubing with styled body panel encapsulating it
So in essence you would have an additional say 10-15lbs max. of tubing /a body panel held in those arches.

From what I could tell, you saw those arches as purely cosmetic with no tube-frame within? I assumed the opposite.

bromikl

11-22-2011, 08:55 PM

Another alteration - Targa.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/modified-whetstone-side-targa2.jpg

What? Huh? That looks nothing like Shawn Whetstone's design. The nose is too short and the top is too high. Are you sure this is in the right thread?

kach22i

11-22-2011, 09:39 PM

From what I could tell, you saw those arches as purely cosmetic with no tube-frame within? I assumed the opposite.
I am saying it could be either way but while they are in there might as well make the best use of them. Also connecting the arches to the chassis steel tube frame could get complex, I'd have to study the frame closer to know if certain ending points are even in the same plane.

What? Huh? That looks nothing like Shawn Whetstone's design. The nose is too short and the top is too high. Are you sure this is in the right thread?

All I did was raise the roof 4" or so to make it as high as the other designs.

SW1

11-22-2011, 11:47 PM

I know the design for my Targa is not typical and probably not for everyone. However; the continuous arches that have been discussed serve several key functions that I feel make the design successful.

They provide a fluidness to the car that works well when the top is both on or off.

They allow a complete roll cage to be seamlessly integrated into the chassis providing additional torsional rigidity and excellent roll over protection while still looking good. Many sports car look unnatural when a full functioning roll cage is installed.

Lastly, they provide good repeatable engagement for the windows to seal.

I feel strongly that if a traditional Targa top is desired the car should be designed around that premise. Likewise, if the car must be 48+ inches tall the entire car should be designed with that parameter in mind, all the proportions would need to be tweaked to make a cohesive design. I know this has been argued to death, but Until Dave says his new baby must be 48+ inches tall and adhere to the original template I will advocate for a lower car. My design is 44.5 inches tall which is slightly taller than the Lotus Exige GT3, additionally the 818 has a lower ground clearance, and therefore there is more potential head room. I believe Dave currently sells roughly 500 cars per year total. If the 818 was a huge success and doubled or even tripled that number which I believe it could, that still makes the 818 a very special low production serious enthusiasts car that shouldn’t try to be all things to all people.

Next topic, the front mounted radiator exhausts hot air just behind the front wheels so the removable Targa top can stow in the front trunk, Careful planning in regards to sizes and proportions was required to make that work. My track version has the radiator that exhaust hot air out the top of the hood in a more traditional location, but that may or may not be necessary.

Flamshackle

11-23-2011, 02:17 AM

Love your work Shawn and would build this as one of my top 5 options! it REALLY like the detailed thought that you have put into this car. Exceptional design and of course ongoing development is appreciated as part of the evolving 818 competitors.

Psay

11-23-2011, 02:36 AM

Shawn you have produced a beautiful concept which you have obviously put a lot of time and effort into. What sets this apart from some of the others in my opinion is the attention to detail to the often overlooked items due to design over function.

I agree with you on the continuous arches they look great on all the body derivatives and to me are what makes this car so great, removing them would take away its heart.

kach22i

11-23-2011, 08:34 AM

Likewise, if the car must be 48+ inches tall the entire car should be designed with that parameter in mind, all the proportions would need to be tweaked to make a cohesive design.

I agree, and a first pass study should help in the decision making process of how much flesh/visual weight to add to the lower body verses the greenhouse. This study I did is all greenhouse.

Keep in mind the original template was estimated (and argued) by me at 48", however I've actually advocated 51" since then - which is still several inches lower than a Boxster/Cayman.

I think this design is strong enough to survive several changes which may be required in the development process, and would be a good starting point for any sports car company. Also remember, there are lower cars of similar layout, but they don't use stock WRX seats either.

Oppenheimer

11-23-2011, 11:29 AM

Dave wants the 818 to fit Wookies (good for me, because there are a lot of cars I wish I could drive, but can't fit - I know I'm not alone, good move Dave). Dave wants to reuse as much of donor as possible, including, probably, the seats. But just like roll-up windows and A/C, who says that this want/need has to be with the 'base' kit?

Why can't 'Wookie Compatible' mean that Wookies gotta buy aftermarket seats? Why compromise the whole shape of the car just because some guys (myself included) won't fit the 'stock' seats? I think its sufficient to just make sure there is a way they (we) can fit, that doesn't include the builder re-engineering the thing.

That said, FFR would need to measure some aftermarket seats, find out how much room that buys you, and determine how much Wookie room is really needed in the template.

vozproto

11-23-2011, 11:33 AM

Edit - making a new thread out of this question.

crackedcornish

11-23-2011, 11:49 AM

Just like I thought...no changes willing to be tried by the designer :rolleyes:

too bad.

When Rodney tried out some of the suggestions made by others, his design absolutely skyrocketed

vozproto

11-23-2011, 12:01 PM

crackedcornish

11-23-2011, 12:33 PM

Shawn obviously believes in the vision of his design as is and we have to respect that.
Some designs/designers are open for free roaming community suggestions, and others aren't.

If it makes it as a body style, then there may be some functional aspects that need to be reviewed when the time comes.

But there is no need to chastise the guy for standing behind his vision.

umm...since submitted to the contest, it's FFR's design now, not his

I didn't chastise, I merely pointed out how trying some suggestions from others could help any design be better and appeal to a larger group of potential buyers

vozproto

11-23-2011, 12:47 PM

bbjones121

11-23-2011, 12:52 PM

When Rodney tried out some of the suggestions made by others, his design absolutely skyrocketed

One very big difference, most people didn't like rodeys original design at the beginning. That is not the same with Shawns. I am beginning to understand that some animosity could have led this design to not be selected. It should have easily won something, so I wish some compromises could be made. I still think it a logical fallacy to give a vehicle a size limitation like the 818 and say it should fit a wookie. There is a reason every small sports car in history is not very compatible with a larger/taller individual. I would like to say this was engineering sense and hope it gets worked out, but this is common sense guys. A car this size if designed proportionately and correctly should not be comfortable for an extended time for a wookie.

This is probably just an argument on the definition of fit.

I think it would be great to make it possible to "fit" if you get a different seat etc., but to ever think something this small would be as comfortable to a larger/taller person as it would be to the average person is just a dream guys. Please don't cripple the design of this car because people have unrealistic expectations. A world car tailors to the majority of the population, not the outliers.

crackedcornish

11-23-2011, 01:11 PM

It is a little contradictory that on one hand you ask Oppenheimer to recuse himself from this process as he is too closely tied to FFR and then in the next, claim that Shawn no longer has ownership over his design because it is FFR property.

Call it passive aggressive or chastising, but either way - I think this may fall within the scope of Dave's recent comments here:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?4262-The-818-Section-and-The-FFR-Community

my statement to Oppenheimer, that you've obviously misunderstood, was about the bars over the doors that he liked...I said he could use them to pull himself up out of the car with, since he is of the wookie stature, and would have to sit on the floor of this design to be able to fit inside it.

vozproto

11-23-2011, 01:13 PM

Yep. Definitely misunderstood.
I didn't realize Oppy was a wookie.

SW1

11-23-2011, 01:29 PM

RCR’s Superlite Coupe has a height of 43 inches and comfortable accommodates guys 6’5”. Sure it’s not like getting in and out of a Honda Accord but it’s very comfortable for driving. What size Wookie are we talking here? Chewbacca was 7’3”

crackedcornish

11-23-2011, 01:49 PM

Yep. Definitely misunderstood.
I didn't realize Oppy was a wookie.

it's all good Voz...figured it was just a miscommunication

kach22i

11-23-2011, 02:00 PM

This is what I could find.

Race Car Replicas (RCR) of Clinton Township, Michigan
http://jalopnik.com/superlite-coupe/

Accomodates up to 6' 4" driver

http://www.kitcarmag.com/featuredvehicles/0903kc_race_car_replica_superlite_coupe/photo_09.html
6321
6322

That is a race car perspective, gotta say it looks pretty exciting. Looks like your feet are wedged way up there too. My old VW Super Beetle had more foot room.:o

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/detail_interior.jpg

PhyrraM

11-23-2011, 02:01 PM

FFR has set the wheelbase and the track width. Nothing else. Designers were allowed any "style" that they wished. Some styles look great while "taller". Some, including Shawn's, do not translate well to something with "reasonable" height (quotes for a moving target open to interpritation).

Its now up to FFR top decide if the extra "something" a low design provides in the styling is worth the "loss" in the comfort, ingress/egress, and wookies.

I, personally, feel that the base kit should use the OEM seats. I would rather see the money go into hardware and fit/finish, not styling. I don't know the "lowest" the 818 can be with OEM seats.

That all being said, Shawn's design is one of the best, most cohesive and well thought out designs from the competition. I don't feel it needs as much tweeking (if any) as Rodney's did. I would certainly build it as long as I fit and can afford it.

SW1

11-24-2011, 12:37 AM

Just like I thought...no changes willing to be tried by the designer :rolleyes:

too bad.

When Rodney tried out some of the suggestions made by others, his design absolutely skyrocketed

Crackedcornish: I would not say that’s a fair assessment.

Here is some background:

My concept started life as a 3 seat, center drive design before I was aware of the 818 design competition. My goal was to develop a simple timeless design that would be well suited for the “lowcost” builder looking for a mid engine alternative to the super seven. I tried to stay away from any current (Chris Banglized) inspired design trends because Lowcost builds can easily take 3-7 years to complete and I dind’t want the styling to be dated before the car was finished I tried to keep the car fairly simple yet modern with a heavy dose of 1960’s mid engine exotic car styling which seems to keep getting better with time. The Alfa Tipo 33 was my go to car on this project.

My original 3 seat design included a very straightforward steel space frame with no doors or roof. My intention was to partner with a company that could provide the body work. The entire design would be open source and free. The builder could use their preferred drive train. I was thinking Honda K20, LNF Ecotec, 1.8-2.0T VW, etc. I personally would want the VW with a dual clutch so I can shift Schuey style, possibly the VR6 with dual clutch that comes out of the new Passat.

When I heard about the 818 competition I thought this same line of thinking probably applies here as well. Almost Every night I read the 818forums to get a better grasp for the FFR culture, the likes, and dislikes, ect. I’t became apparent that a Taga version that was an upgrade to the base roadster would be very desirable for this target audience so I decided to convert my 3 seat design into a more traditional 2 seat that would allow for a Targa option. I feel the guys here on this forum and the grassroots forum really inspired me and helped to shape my opinions for what this car should be which also includes the overall height of the car. My design as is can accommodate some pretty big wookies when necessary with reasonable compromises.

I think there are two schools of thought on this matter, neither of which is right or wrong, just different:
Since Kach22 is the most vocal and has made the best argument I will refer to his preference as Kach 22. It’s also fitting in that he is from Ann Arbor, Mi and I’m from Columbus, OH.

Kach 22’s preference:
Car should be 51 inches tall.
Allows for easier ingress and regress.
Allows a very upright seating position if desired.
Allows room for stock WRX seats and slide rails and Wookie.
Similar height to many mass produced sports cars.

Shawn’s preference:
Car should be 45.5 inches tall
Lower height improves handling
Lower height reduces drag coefficient, better performance, better gas mileage.
Lower height allows rear wing to be more effective when utilized.
Ingress and regress may requires some technique, may also improve owner’s abs.
Wookies cannot use stock seats, but will still fit comfortably in fixed seat sized specifically for their needs.
Not similar in height to most mass produced sports cars.
Its lack of height clearly states its purpose in life.

I’m sure Kach22 can add some pros and cons to both categories and I look forward to his response.

Happy Thanksgiving!

-Shawn

Benji

11-24-2011, 04:12 AM

And besides, Shawn's design doesn't really need changing whereas as lovely as Rodney's is, it needed work. ;)

ScottKoschwitz

11-24-2011, 06:32 AM

In the two schools of thought Shawn defines above, I lean towards the Shawn school. I am looking for a substitute for a Lotus Elise, so I expect some compromises in creature comforts and ease of entry and exit for the sake of performance. As a practical matter, I would be willing to pay more for a design like Shawn's targa, in the sense of a higher-priced base kit from FFR, the need to use components (like seats) not from from the donor Subaru, and even body work and paint if the design could not incorporate untrimmed leading doors edges well. I think the design is that good that I would be willing to spend up to what a used Elise would cost ($25-30,000) to build it.

As for the "jungle jim" bars: I like them. It allows for a targa option while keeping that beautiful roof line, and for all the other benefits mentioned above.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

crackedcornish

11-24-2011, 11:00 AM

Happy Thanksgiving to you guys as well!

Shawn, first let me say that I respect the amount of time and effort that has gone into your design, I truly do....but everybody has their own tastes in what looks racy, sexy, muscular, HoF, or whatever word you want to use to convey that feeling you get when you look at a car you lust for.

While I think, your low, smooth design would be an excellent candidate for the MPG version, I can definitely see why some people would like your design, as is, for any of the possible variations.

But as much as I want to love your design, it just doesn't quite have the visual excitement (especially the nose/hood area) to bring out that visceral reaction for me...sorry.

Again I'm not saying any of this with any malice, so please don't take it that way, I just want the 818 to be the best it can possibly be in whatever form it takes, whether it be a MPG miser, a fun roadster, a DD coupe, or a track terror.

As far as Rodney O's design needing the work, well according to some (and I was one of them :D), yes it did, but look at what the willingness of the designer to try out a few suggestions did for it. I'd just like to see that same type of willingness to try out some new things on all of the design that are being considered for the 818, not just yours....you just happened to have someone post up in your design thread that nobody has made suggestion for change yet, and that must've meant that the design was near perfect as is.

remember, FFR is trying to appeal to as many people worldwide as possible with the designs

thanks for listening to my point of view
Jim

kach22i

11-24-2011, 11:21 AM

My concept started life as a 3 seat, center drive design before I was aware of the 818 design competition.
Thank you for explaining the history of your design development.

One of my designs was like that too, in that I had worked on it before the contest. Five years before, and developed in model form in soft clay which underwent many variations before settling on a final from. I was going for timeless too, but a touch more retro than futuristic.

To clarify: I don't want the 818 to be 43", 45.5", 48", 51" or other height. I've only tried my best to predict and at times reverse engineer seating and structural frame issues in order to better understand the project and the design development process.

In a way my efforts may brace some of you for what FFR has to do later on, they seem to be the practical sorts, while most of us are dreamers or designers at heart with our heads in the clouds at times. We have to live in a fantasy land to be creative, FFR has to live within the brutal unforgiving facts and realities of physics, engineering and market acceptability.

I don't speak for FFR or any of it's staff, but I have sought to see the future, and it's not always a smooth road ahead, but that's reality, right?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/125505-more-random-pics-1961.html
6331

MuddyRoverRob

11-24-2011, 11:31 AM

It reminds me of:

http://uncrate.com/p/2009/07/ferrari-f458-italia.jpg

Agreed.

I like this design!

bbjones121

11-24-2011, 11:38 AM

I think the design looks great in all variations Shawn.

olpro

11-24-2011, 12:03 PM

One thought on Shawn’s situation relative to Rodney’s…
Rodney was 2nd place in the competition and received a cash award along with some valuable publicity. He is already invested in this project in a material way. We might assume that FFR has contacted him about possible modifications and struck an agreement with him for that effort.
Shawn’s car did not get any award of any kind (I personally would have given it one of the top places) but still has signed off on design rights to FFR as a condition of entry. I seriously doubt if they would refuse him the right to develop his design for his own purposes unless he wanted to use it to directly compete with the 818 - but they could.

Another issue is one of professional ethics, which frowns on professionals doing design work for free. That is not ethical in any profession because it takes jobs away from one’s professional colleagues. Of course there are many exceptions, as in the fields of medicine or law where people do pro bono work. Nonetheless, FFR is a profit making entity and not one of the likely common exceptions. Shawn is a professional Industrial designer and subject to that professions’ code of ethics.

If FFR is seriously interested in Shawn’s design, they can use it AS IS or modify it themselves. However, the best results would come from a renewed collaboration with Shawn, giving him very detailed input, spelling out specific expectations and providing him the resources to justify his work. That would provide FFR with a professional development path to the best results.
In the meantime, he is certainly free to make changes or not, but that is up to him.

Benji

11-24-2011, 01:20 PM

Shawn’s car did not get any award of any kind (I personally would have given it one of the top places) but still has signed off on design rights to FFR as a condition of entry. I seriously doubt if they would refuse him the right to develop his design for his own purposes unless he wanted to use it to directly compete with the 818 - but they could.

I do wonder about this situation, it's very sketchy at best. Didn't they say that it was only theirs if they use it? What if someone had taken his designs and then submitted them to FFR without his knowledge (granted he'd be pretty shouty about it right about now if that were true!), where would legal ownership of the designs lay then?

crackedcornish

11-24-2011, 02:47 PM

I do wonder about this situation, it's very sketchy at best. Didn't they say that it was only theirs if they use it? What if someone had taken his designs and then submitted them to FFR without his knowledge (granted he'd be pretty shouty about it right about now if that were true!), where would legal ownership of the designs lay then?

I copied this from the rules for submission and I highlighted some of it:

5. In consideration for participation in the “Factory Five-Grassroots Motorsports Design Competition” and for eligibility of prizes winnings, participants and entrants in the contest agree that all submissions, designs, drawings, data files and ideas entered into this contest will become the property of Factory Five Racing, Inc., and no material will be returned to participants at the conclusion of the contest.

6. Participants in the contest agree that any and all submissions may be used wholly or in part by Factory Five Racing, Inc., at its sole discretion. These submissions may also be used without limitation by Factory Five Racing, Inc., Grassroots Motorsports magazine, and designated associates, partners and affiliates for promotional purposes.

7. Submissions must be sent in digital format as .JPG or .PDF files. The files, drawings and text in all submissions are the property of Factory Five Racing, Inc.

Xusia

11-24-2011, 09:36 PM

I do wonder about this situation, it's very sketchy at best. Didn't they say that it was only theirs if they use it? What if someone had taken his designs and then submitted them to FFR without his knowledge (granted he'd be pretty shouty about it right about now if that were true!), where would legal ownership of the designs lay then?

Are we seriously talking about this? If someone had taken his designs and submitted them to FFR without his knowledge and consent (otherwise known as theft), then the rules are null and void for that submission because the person submitting it wouldn't have the legal right or authority to enter in to any sort of agreement in regards to the designs. This would hold up in court easily if such a situation occurred, but FFR is an upstanding company and I seriously doubt they would even attempt to use a stolen design (once they became aware). To illustrate, if person "B" steals something from person "A" and sells it to person "C", is person "C" now the rightful owner? Of course not - because person "B" didn't have the right to sell it. Once discovered, the property is returned to person "A". It's the same situation...

imom

11-24-2011, 11:38 PM

It's good that each design has it's own thread and I haven't been following this one...but decided to poke into this thread and see this... with all due respect, I think FFR is really cool to start a competition and allow those interested to voice their opinions and ideas. As any company from what I am reading have to protect themselves from litigation...so they have put forth rules and so it's up the person to decide to submit or not. Setting these rules sets a safe playground for open design without having to worry down the line someone changes their mind and want an idea or drawing back and such. That's all I say about that...

For me, not everything is about money... yes FFR is a business and this 818 contest may be a marketing campaign... but the flip side is that it allows from novice to season pros to comment and directly or indirectly affect a design of a car. How many other car manufacturers or any other manufacturers from any industry gives a person this opportunity to provide feedback? Large companies hire marketing surveys of a select few within a certain target audience. I would be happy to provide my ideas good or bad... and not get anything in return because for me, if I can influence in some way to having a cool product it's a win win situation.

So having said all that... can we all just get back to discussing the designs of the car? Going off on these tangents doesn't seem so productive except for starting more arguments and discussion that have less to do about the original threads of design.

bromikl

11-25-2011, 07:41 AM

I feel any modifications would be pointless until we have some measurements of the chassis.

Regardless, if someone wants to modify a design to make it fit, then it's not the same design, is it? We've all seen how difficult it is to develop a truly unique shape. With every submission, we've found similarities with production vehicles, whether intended or not.

Another aspect of this discussion is, it would be impossible (and poor business sense) for FFR to try to "own" all the concepts submitted - especially after they posted them all on the web. None of the concepts have been sold by FFR (yet) and when they become available, it would be pointless to develop the same concept independently. Besides, some of the concepts are based on production vehicles, and even FFR can't "own" them.

Finally, after going through the legal experience with the Roadster, I seriously doubt Dave has the stomach to do that to someone else. Any third-party body that becomes available won't cut into FFR's profits; in fact it could be argued that it makes the 818 kit even more valuable. Because of this, it would be next to impossible to prove damages.

(I'm not a copyright lawyer.) I have the feeling that modifying any of the concepts is legally safe, and if toes are stepped on, Dave would let the person or persons know early in the process.

bobzdar

11-27-2011, 09:37 AM

45-46" will work. My f355 sits at 45-46" with 95" wheelbase and I have a 6'2" friend that can sit in it fine. I drove the car 15 hours from Miami to Richmond over 2 days and was comfortable (I'm 6'). I can post any pics you like of the ergonomics, but you need to move the driver forward and recline a bit based on the templates posted.

SW1

11-28-2011, 07:37 PM

SS818 want's a pink one, we aim to please.:)

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-014.jpg

keys2heaven

11-28-2011, 07:54 PM

So, what would this look like in the synergy green (Camaro color) or purple!

bbjones121

11-28-2011, 09:59 PM

SS818 want's a pink one, we aim to please.:)

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-014.jpg

Love this, minus pink.

PhyrraM

11-29-2011, 12:14 AM

Agreed, this is the only "smoothster exotic" that appeals to me. So much better than the Ferrari/Porsche/random supercar styling cue copycat from other threads.

Vman7

11-29-2011, 12:44 AM

Agreed, this is the only "smoothster exotic" that appeals to me. So much better than the Ferrari/Porsche/random supercar styling cue copycat from other threads.

hhhmm... looking around, nope......still looking around...nope.......maybe over here.....nope, still don't see PhyrraM's design anywhere........roflmbo

PhyrraM

11-29-2011, 01:08 AM

hhhmm... looking around, nope......still looking around...nope.......maybe over here.....nope, still don't see PhyrraM's design anywhere........roflmbo

Fair enough. I have nowhere near the skills that are needed to get what would be in my head out to my hands. And anything I could come up with in my head is not nearly up to the standards of half the contestants. I'm just not built that way.

So, commenting on what is presented is really my only way of expressing what I like in that department. And it's not only yours that I may have been refering to, I'm a blanket exotic styling discriminator. (although I just noticed my post was singular, it wasn't intended to be)

Vman7

11-29-2011, 01:25 AM

Fair enough. I have nowhere near the skills that are needed to get what would be in my head out to my hands. And anything I could come up with in my head is not nearly up to the standards of half the contestants. I'm just not built that way.

So, commenting on what is presented is really my only way of expressing what I like in that department. And it's not only yours that I may have been refering to, I'm a blanket exotic styling discriminator. (although I just noticed my post was singular, it wasn't intended to be)

LOL......sorry I just couldn't resist......lol

I find it interesting that you are a "blanket exotic styling discriminator", since your avatar is of a more classic style, which I remember when who ever did that design, you liked, I do as well, wish that person did more views of it, has ferrari feel to it.

With that being said, I still think Shawn's car should have been in the top 3, it has a lot of potential witha few tweeks here and there to get it to work on the FFR layout. It has classic but yet modern flare to it.

Vman7

11-29-2011, 01:27 AM

Shawn you really need to get this to work!..... Looks great with the wing!

Here is my thought, mind you just a thouht. change the headlights, tail lights to real world ones that are inexpensive to start (can always upgrade), more venting in the rear. From looking at the overlays that Kachi did, I would say bring the roof up some, bring the front part of the roof down just a little, make the windshield in portion with the rest (coupe version). bring up the front fender some, drop the back fender some, and lengthen the front and rear in order to make the car not look so high, once the top is made higher. Just some thoughts. Can stll stay with the same look, just reshaping in order to work for the FFR template.

If I had a good side view I could do a quick idea.

bbjones121

12-06-2011, 01:06 AM

wow, way to far down on the list, holiday bump

bbjones121

12-07-2011, 02:56 PM

This has potential to go all the way according to FFR. We just need more details.

D2W

12-07-2011, 06:42 PM

This has potential to go all the way according to FFR. We just need more details.

I think it would be great if FFR contacted some of the designers like SW1, went over some of the challenges, and let the designers change their designs. Then reevaluate whether the design should be pursued. The level of design skill available here continues to blow me away.

bbjones121

12-08-2011, 02:59 PM

That would be nice

DrieStone

12-08-2011, 04:11 PM

I think it would be great if FFR contacted some of the designers like SW1, went over some of the challenges, and let the designers change their designs. Then reevaluate whether the design should be pursued. The level of design skill available here continues to blow me away.

I think the problem with that logic is that Dave and team need to decide on a singular design/vision (for now) and move forward. It's very likely that some people are just not going to like the final design. Not that I don't agree with your statement about the level of design skill, it is quite amazing, and I really wish that we could have all of them built.

If I were in Dave's shoes (and I wouldn't be surprised if this is what's happening), I wouldn't talk much more about the design (or ask for community feedback) until the final decision. It's easy to dream, and fun to wish, but at the end of the day the design has to be realistic (i.e. able to be produced with FFR's current technology), as well as being "hot".

I get the impression that "going back" to the designers doesn't really serve the purpose of moving forward and only breathes life into some kind of unrealistic expectations. I have my own "wishes", but I'm really more excited to see the vision of the FFR team and where it goes. I certainly don't expect that anything that I say here will sway the project, but that's really because I trust that Dave has his own vision clear in his head and he's not going to create something I wouldn't want (and honestly if he did, so be it).

I'm not trying to be disrespectful or trollish (I'll admit that although Shawn's design isn't my #1 choice, I would have no hesitation buying the 818 if it looked like this). I am a software developer by trade, and I know some of the pitfalls of creating real end-user products, I can't imagine the difficulties of producing something of this scale which has to be 1000 times more difficult.

I have the mantra "dreaming is easy".

olpro

12-08-2011, 04:22 PM

I get the impression that "going back" to the designers doesn't really serve the purpose of moving forward and only breathes life into some kind of unrealistic expectations. I have my own "wishes", but I'm really more excited to see the vision of the FFR team and where it goes. I certainly don't expect that anything that I say here will sway the project, but that's really because I trust that Dave has his own vision clear in his head and he's not going to create something I wouldn't want (and honestly if he did, so be it).

A big advantage of returning to the 'designer' is if that person can bring expertise and capability to the process that isn't available 'in house'. An example of this would be CAD surfacing. I would bet that a guy like Shawn can bring something unique and very valuable to the table with this. Another example would be the RISD team with their clay modeling and design development tradition.
Taking a design to a production level (ready for scanning) isn't so easy, even with 1/4 scales to start with.

D2W

12-08-2011, 06:20 PM

I think the problem with that logic is that Dave and team need to decide on a singular design/vision (for now) and move forward. It's very likely that some people are just not going to like the final design. Not that I don't agree with your statement about the level of design skill, it is quite amazing, and I really wish that we could have all of them built.

If I were in Dave's shoes (and I wouldn't be surprised if this is what's happening), I wouldn't talk much more about the design (or ask for community feedback) until the final decision. It's easy to dream, and fun to wish, but at the end of the day the design has to be realistic (i.e. able to be produced with FFR's current technology), as well as being "hot".

I get the impression that "going back" to the designers doesn't really serve the purpose of moving forward and only breathes life into some kind of unrealistic expectations. I have my own "wishes", but I'm really more excited to see the vision of the FFR team and where it goes. I certainly don't expect that anything that I say here will sway the project, but that's really because I trust that Dave has his own vision clear in his head and he's not going to create something I wouldn't want (and honestly if he did, so be it).

I'm not trying to be disrespectful or trollish (I'll admit that although Shawn's design isn't my #1 choice, I would have no hesitation buying the 818 if it looked like this). I am a software developer by trade, and I know some of the pitfalls of creating real end-user products, I can't imagine the difficulties of producing something of this scale which has to be 1000 times more difficult.

I have the mantra "dreaming is easy".

I agree that FFR needs to decide on a singular vision, modifing the current choices (at least in 3d) to make them manufacturable and fit the chassis would go a long way toward deciding which one to build. In my opinion they rushed into the scale models to quickly. All of the designs should have been corrected to fit the chassis. A model that doesn't conform to the restrictions is no better than a rendering with 30" wheels and an overall height of 36". It looks really cool, and we all want one, but its not realistic.

I always thought of the design contest as more of a design "inspiration" contest. After the contest was over I would have taken the chosen designs and modified them to work. Then made a decision on what to move forward with. A real designer would be invaluable during this phase. I believe Jim is very talented, but I don't believe this is his strongest suit. Why not let these talented designers continue to tweak their designs for the chance of having the next FFR.

I took nothing you said as trollish. I've been a design engineer for 20 years, although not in something quite so cool as performance cars:) Creating real end-user products is hard, especially when what your making not only has to work well, but also look incredible.

Dreaming is easy, but its where true inspiration comes from.

Oppenheimer

12-08-2011, 06:33 PM

Yes, the design contest was for a concept car. Car makers build full scale, running concepts, to vet which have wings. I feel like that is what FFR was doing with the models. They took pains to make them as exact as possible to the renderings from whence they came, even though they knew some didn't fit the template.

I think the idea was to see which would fly, then work on making those into a produceable design, just like with any concept car. From that standpoint, the models were made at the right time, and served their purpose well.

bbjones121

12-08-2011, 09:54 PM

What is the largest 3D printer available out there? Couldn't Shawns design just be printed and shaved/molded/modified after?

cordycord

12-09-2011, 12:32 AM

First, FFR has done something smart. As a newbie to this website, I see that the most "viewers" are in the 818 forum. Lots of buzz. Lots of interest. This thread is moving nicely, and that's because Shawn's design has legs. It's not only the classic lines and obvious packaging forethought given, but I think everyone on the site can imagine how they'd paint this car, what wheels they'd use, what they might add to make it their own. Shawn's is an eminently build-able and customizable car. Untouched, I think the design stands on its own.

Now, should FFR decide that this style should be explored, who better than a talented designer to help them develop and hone a design for a waiting public? The contest is over, the awards handed out. Now all anyone wants is a hot-looking car they can build, right? Ding ding ding! Start here.

bromikl

12-09-2011, 08:28 AM

I think everyone on the site can imagine how they'd paint this car, what wheels they'd use, what they might add to make it their own. Shawn's is an eminently build-able and customizable car. Untouched, I think the design stands on its own.

This may be surprising to you, but this is how I (and others) feel about O's design. Shawn's? It's good, but not my favorite flavor.

bbjones121

12-09-2011, 09:44 AM

This may be surprising to you, but this is how I (and others) feel about O's design. Shawn's? It's good, but not my favorite flavor.

I liked O's design at several points through the modifications, but the hood is getting too funky, I hate the new front fender gaps, and the rear side vents don't look nearly as good as the early, low vents did. It is looking more and more like your teenage racer rather than the unique curvy sports car it us to be. Shawns is by far the most sleek exotic of them all.

cordycord

12-09-2011, 10:48 AM

Singular vision. I think this is the all-encompassing idea of the 818 process, with a stout frame and excellent running gear that can be skinned in numerous ways. Mike has the option of putting any number of bodies on this car. As mentioned, Shawn's car could be barchetta, coupe AND targa. This frame could also support all sorts of designs that look nothing like Shawn's car, and yet the "singular" vision would still hold.

Example--Shawn's car is sleek and smooth. Another 818 concept may be stubby and square and look like it was ready for a drift competition in downtown Manhattan. Same frame, different design, singular vision.

Oppenheimer

12-09-2011, 12:34 PM

Singular vision.

Exactly. Dave already named this his 'Swatch-Watch' concept.

cordycord

12-09-2011, 12:55 PM

Exactly. Dave already named this his 'Swatch-Watch' concept.

Fantastic concept. Clearly this can be applied to every frame FFR now builds, and having a "Cobra soul" under a different skin may add cachet' to a particular design. Personally, I'm a big fan of mid-engine flat four designs. My favorite? The Porsche 904.

Xusia

01-09-2012, 02:33 PM

Not much discussion on this. I like a lot of Shawn's ideas. Shawn, any news?

kach22i

01-09-2012, 03:43 PM

What news could there be?

He refuses to continue to entertain us with changes and alternates (the nerve).:rolleyes:

I think he must have said; the heck with these cage rattlers.:cool:

bbjones121

01-09-2012, 03:49 PM

i think his design took a lot of time and energy. Having not won anything from FFR, i can only imagine how demotivating that can be. I bet we would hear more from Shawn if FFR initiated some communication.

slopoke

01-09-2012, 09:12 PM

To me Shawn's design is an extrapolation and renewal of the most beautiful coupe ... the 904. It may need its own frame to make it come to fruition ... do what you must to make this car a reality

sidewinder

01-11-2012, 12:18 PM

SS818 want's a pink one, we aim to please.:)

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-014.jpg

+1 (rims & wing in black, pls)

mekeys

01-17-2012, 09:39 AM

I want mind the same Yellow my 1965 Corvair Corsa was with a Tan interior..You can leave off the wing..

Mel

SW1

02-11-2012, 12:17 PM

Hi guys,

I’m finally up and running again after almost 5 month without a home work station. To celebrate my new core i-7 processing power I made my first ever animation. It’s pretty lame as far as animations go but it does provide several new vantage points of the car (600 of them to be exact) I also took Oldpro’s advice and shot it with a larger focal length. I believe I was using a 50mm lens for the original renderings, this animation was shot with a 75mm.

I uploaded the animation to YouTube, here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2p0JvASPCs

-Shawn

Xusia

02-11-2012, 01:25 PM

Nice work Shawn. I really love this design (as I do some others as well) - especially with the rear wing.

D2W

02-11-2012, 02:00 PM

I really like this design too. I think the simplicity of the design really speaks to the elemental sports car that FFR originally set out to build. Has FFR contacted you at all about developing your design?

ScottKoschwitz

02-11-2012, 02:29 PM

This is still my favorite.

keys2heaven

02-11-2012, 02:52 PM

I can sooo see this as electric powered!

dclin

02-11-2012, 03:16 PM

Still one of the nicest designs, which I prefer over the winners or Jim's design, short of Rodney's. Looks stunning in matt silver.

I think you could easily get away with increasing the overall greenhouse size a bit to address to WC issue. If anything, the current proportions look appropriate on a larger car. Given how small this platform is suppose to be, I think you can make height and fore/aft of the greenhouse dimensions larger w/o hurting the look.

If both Rodney's and your designs were produced, I'd be forced to buy two kits. :D

bbjones121

02-11-2012, 03:18 PM

My favorite still by far!! Thanks for the video showing the different angles.

mekeys

02-11-2012, 03:52 PM

My favorite also I had picked it before the judges made there decision on the top four or was it three ??.it's been a long time since an update..This time the video worked ,Thanks..

Mel

Benji

02-11-2012, 05:38 PM

Love this car. Definitely my top, with R-O's almost sharing that spot.

hakalugi

02-12-2012, 01:12 AM

i would love to buy and build the targa kit based on this design. good job. thanks for the tips on the software tools (rhino) for some ideas i'm toying with.

question, based on your earlier comments your radiator design would allow for front trunk storage (boot area) for the targa top, so presumably for briefcase or other small stuff if the targa was still in the mounted/closed position, yes? Some of the other designs also had a rear trunk/boot, above the tranny and below the rear deck, did yours? i'd like the high mileage with targa to try to make this as practical as possible a car for some driving to work/town. and by high mileage, the standard 2.5T in < 2000 pounds will do just fine, the VW tdi would be gravy. not looking for a stage 3 STI setup (yet)

thanks Shawn.

-hak

SW1

02-12-2012, 10:23 PM

Thanks hak.

Yes, there would still be a little room in the front trunk with the Targa Top stowed. And yes, there is a lot of curvature in the back end from a plan view so there could be a really small trunk above the transaxle like a Lotus Elise.

i would love to buy and build the targa kit based on this design. good job. thanks for the tips on the software tools (rhino) for some ideas i'm toying with.

question, based on your earlier comments your radiator design would allow for front trunk storage (boot area) for the targa top, so presumably for briefcase or other small stuff if the targa was still in the mounted/closed position, yes? Some of the other designs also had a rear trunk/boot, above the tranny and below the rear deck, did yours? i'd like the high mileage with targa to try to make this as practical as possible a car for some driving to work/town. and by high mileage, the standard 2.5T in < 2000 pounds will do just fine, the VW tdi would be gravy. not looking for a stage 3 STI setup (yet)

thanks Shawn.

-hak