Build school advice/path to ordering

[topherchrisb]

TLDR version:

Looking for build school advice as I'm going to the May 21st session to help me hit 100% confidence I want to do a build.
Have physical manual in hand with notes I've been making from reading the forums... should I take it to the build school or is just a pocket notebook easier while taking pictures?
Going to make a post in the northern mountains forum to meet some "local" to me builders. I'm north of Denver 15 miles or so.


Finally first post

Hello all, after about six years of being an anonymous consumer of information on this site I can finally say "I'm ready." About the same time I started looking to do a build Ford released the latest GT350 and I was going back and forth between the two options. At the time I had leaned towards the GT350 due to space and time constraints. I was just about to pull the trigger on a 2017 avalanche gray/white stripes combo and then... we decided to start having kids. At the time my wife wanted me to buy the kit so it'd help get me out of the office but I knew that wouldn't really be the responsible thing to do. Now three kids and two moves later... "I'm ready." Saying "I'm ready" is a huge step but it's not a full commitment to doing a build. At the moment I'm 90% sure I want to take the project on and I've signed up for the May build school to get me over that last little hump. That 90% is a STRONG 90% although as over the last year I've asked a contractor buddy of mine to design and build a shop with this project in mind. That solves the space issue... I'm hoping having the kit in hand helps motivate me to solve the time issue.

I'll be very surprised if the build school experience leads me to not wanting to do a build, but it is possible. And besides now there is a new GT500 we could put in the shop if I change my mind. :P I know a few of my buddies would be a little let down if I decide not to as I've talked about this potential project so much over the last couple years. Probably a couple of my neighbors as well because of how complicated it was to get the permit for the shop. It comes up at each little gathering even if it's just a quick... "Still going to build the car?" inquiry.

I've seen in the regional forums there is some minor activity in the northern mountain forum. I'm north of Denver just a bit, so I'll probably be reaching out there soon to see some local builds and meet some comrades I can bribe into emptying the shop fridge while providing insight/guidance. A family friend in AZ that built a Daytona Coupe has been sending
me pictures, tidbits, and even has a bunch of stuff he wants to give me when he can make it back to CO next. All this advise/motivation is appreciated as in most of my projects I'm not really one for simplicity and looking at my desired features it's going to get complicated, but I'm ok with that. It's just time and money right? Just the major stuff below... most the dressings and stuff will be included.

Priorities:
Full Kit

Coyote/TKX
Hydraulic clutch
Power steering
IRS
Wilwood brakes
Wilwood electronic parking brake
Quieter exhaust (cats, muffled/baffled pipes)
Push button start
Navigation
Avalanche Gray/white stripe/black pinstripe paint (inspired by that GT350 and 25th anniversary car)
Change chrome to satin black powder coat


Considerations:

Power Brakes (I'm pretty sure I've read not needed with wilwoods somewhere)
Heated seats (can always put more clothes on though)
Cooled seats (can't always take more clothes off)
Traction control/ABS (want wife to not be afraid of the car)
Switchable tunes (again want wife to not be afraid of the car)
High back seats (safety and reduction in wind back pressure?)
Soft top/AC/radio (would only do all three or none)


The one bit of advice I'm probably looking for now is anything related to the build school. I tried the search but "build school advice" pulls nearly every thread as it's pretty generic. I have a physical version of the manual now and I was planning on bringing it to the school to take notes but it's pretty bulky. I'm thinking now it'd be better to just have a pocket notebook and my phone for pictures. I might still take it to do research at the hotel between the sessions. I've put a number of hours into looking through it already and trying to mark important spots when I read about them in the forums. I'm also taking my father-in-law with me as he'll likely be another one helping me empty that shop fridge while this is going on.

[BradCraig]

Do it!!!

I built mine with my wife in mind as well, the coyote is VERY mild mannered unless you stomp on it. She drives it without any problem at all with no alternate tuning. You are correct with the power brakes, not needed with Wilwoods but I do recommend power steering. You didn't mention your background but note that getting too far off the reservation with a lot of complicated "extras" can get messy quickly and increase the likelihood of your project taking a LONG time to complete (or not getting completed). Traction control\ABS....I would hold off on that that given there really isn't a "packaged" solution for that and it would be a frankenstein project. I highly recommend, it's been a great experience for me!


(Edit) I didn't do build school, but I wouldn't overthink it. Just go, listen, and participate. My impression from others is you get a lot of best practices and shortcuts from the class to make your build smoother.

[edwardb]

Welcome! You're in for an excellent adventure. IMO there's a very big difference between a GT350 and a Factory Five Roadster. But I wouldn't trade my builds for one. Plus I enjoy the build process almost as much as the driving. I think that's true of many on here. Some random thoughts based on your post:

- No, I wouldn't try to follow along with the manual during the build school. You may want to take it with you and study/markup in the hotel after class. But even then not sure. Take lots of pictures. Have a notepad or an electronic device to make notes. And be prepared to jump in and do some wrenching. They do a great job with the class. Enjoy and hope it makes the decision easier for you.

- Your configuration is very similar to my #8674 / 20th Anniversary Roadster build. Build thread linked below. It's an awesome combination although now with the Gen 3 Coyote. Which I installed in a Coupe. Similar, but a few differences.

- I certainly agree about power steering. Big fan. I agree with your assessment that the Wilwood pedal box and Wilwood optional brakes work just fine without power assist. You'll have good stopping power. You will have a heavier pedal than power. That alone bothers some people. But if you're OK with it, you'll be fine.

- Heated seats in my opinion are a no-brainer. For nearly any seats, they're a simple installation and the added comfort they give when the temps are a little low is significant.

- I don't know that high back seats help with wind pressure. We've had the low back seats, and with wind wings and visors, don't detect any pressure. Just the usual wind in your face. Agree that the high backs are safer though.

- If you're doing a top, agree heat and defroster are pretty important. A/C I'm not so sure about. I get that guys in some of the hot climates want it. But to be honest it does add quite a bit of complexity in not very large spaces.

- I'll probably get push back from several on this, but I'm not a big supporter of ABS or traction control in these cars. First, they are by definition fair weather cars. I don't drive mine in the rain. At least not on purpose. When it happens, I take it into account. For the Michigan winter with ice and snow it's not even an option. The car is in hibernation. Properly set up, with decent tires, and the Coyote which is amazingly easy to drive, my ABS/traction control is my right foot and what's between my ears. We've driven thousands of miles over the past 12+ years in multiple builds. I can honestly say I've never once regretted not having ABS and/or traction control. Add to this I retired from the automotive industry from companies that made those components. I have a basic understanding of the R&D, testing, and customization that goes into those systems matching cars, drivetrains, etc. I know there are aftermarket systems that have some level of tunability. But mostly I see guys bolting in systems made for other platforms. Not something I would personally do. Again, that's just my opinion and I'm positive others will have opposite views. But FWIW.

Good luck.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Hopefully my friend Dave Cabral ("Papa" on the forum) will see this and chime in. He in the greater Denver area and is always willing to welcome new builders and share his knowledge.

Good luck!

Jeff

[CobraboyDR]

"Traction control" is a symphonic ballet between left and right feet controlled by superior observation skills based on physics...

[topherchrisb]

Thanks guys...

I didn't mention my background but my dad was a mechanic for one of the front range gas companies that seemed to have a new name every other year. My curiosity and the opportunities I had to learn while he was working on stuff has allowed me to do pretty much all major maintenance jobs on our cars and homes. "Major" projects I've done recently are an audi a4 intake manifold control valve on the firewall side of the engine pretty much with a mirror and by touch, rear struts on the expedition, and I currently have new motor mounts/snub mount on their way for that same audi. I often help friends and coworkers changing out alternators, water pumps, brakes etc. Replacing broken parts with exact matching parts is much simpler than building those mechanical systems from scratch though. I also have an uncle that's a electrical engineer by hobby and we dabble in all sorts of goofy little projects with arduinos and raspberry pis. So I don't think I'll be afraid of any of the electrical work that'll come into play. I know this project would be a whole nother level though.

Custom machining and welding are some things I haven't had any experience with but wouldn't shy away from.

I'm seeing a common theme in relation to the traction control feature... and thinking about it edwardb has a great point about those systems being matched to the car. I can't expect retrofitting a system to such a unique platform be easy in terms of making it functional, let alone being able to tune it to the degree it's worth all the effort. Maybe my time is better spent on teaching the wife how to drive? That or make it complicated enough to drive she doesn't want to drive it? I don't know if that's possible though as we have a Model T I'm about to get completely running and explaining to her how to drive that she is still pretty excited to take out for a spin one day.

[edwardb]

I'm seeing a common theme in relation to the traction control feature... and thinking about it edwardb has a great point about those systems being matched to the car. I can't expect retrofitting a system to such a unique platform be easy in terms of making it functional, let alone being able to tune it to the degree it's worth all the effort. Maybe my time is better spent on teaching the wife how to drive? That or make it complicated enough to drive she doesn't want to drive it? I don't know if that's possible though as we have a Model T I'm about to get completely running and explaining to her how to drive that she is still pretty excited to take out for a spin one day.

So my question to you is have you actually driven one of these? Not easy because most (including me) give rides but don't allow others to drive. If you haven't, I can only say I'll bet you'll be surprised how easy and well mannered they are to drive. Granted there's a lot of power and things can change in a hurry. But with a nice running engine like the Coyote, a well setup chassis with power steering (increased caster), IRS, good brakes, etc. it's a very nice driving car. Other than manual shift, which not everyone knows how to use these days, everything else about driving the car is pretty easy. I still remember my first drive in our first Mk3. I had never driven one myself until my first build was done. After reading all the scary comments and "it will kill you" posts, I was afraid the thing was going to jump off the road and run me into a tree. Seriously... What I found instead was what I described above. Builds since then with better parts have only gotten better. Not to downplay the seriousness of respecting what you have and using your foot and brains as I described, these cars are not hard to drive. Maybe that's a little bit of the problem. Drivers can become complacent and then get over their heads.

[CraigS]

I agree w/ EdwardB. These cars can be very easy to drive. Just stay below 1/2 throttle, ha, ha. Seriously keep this in mind during the build when you are making choices. Mine is carbed but I purposely worked the throttle linkage to give a long gas pedal travel for easier control. A coyote can do a similar thing w/ a tune. As already said, PS is a must in my opinion. Depending on height differences between you and your wife work something out. Seats on sliders or an extra set of holes in the mounts. Go with the kirkeys. They are surprisingly comfortable. If you need a little extra padding, that is easy as the cover is attached w/ snaps. If the shiny aluminum is a put-off, paint them w/ a rattle can. As you get to seat/pedal install stage be sure to get your wife involved. My seat was a solid mount but I spent a ton of time adjusting it and the pedals to make it fit me. I drove on a lot of short hops in the neighborhood w/ chunks of 2x4s, plywood etc jammed behind and under the front of the seat to get the position perfect. Then I drilled mount holes. Research here for rear view mirror threads. The standard ones are nearly useless. I do a lot of interstate driving so I needed to see for lane changes. I use motorcycle mirrors mounted up on the windshield posts and 3 of those suction cup baby mirrors inside. Even w/ my hardtop they were kind of ugly, so I did a strip of dark windshield tint across the top 3 inches of the glass to hide them. But w/ all those, I could see everything behind me. If you can get your wife involved you will be a very happy man. I had veto power but our paint color choice was 80% her and 20% me.

[msbrown6]

I just got home today from the build school this past weekend. It was a fun class - with a nice group of guys. It was really nice to see how the car comes together - and gives you a great way to plan your build, plan the order - and get what you need and make choices about the many options available. It also will help you to avoid some of the common errors and pitfalls in the build process. The instructors were fun - and were able to balance nicely the important information delivery and the fun bull****ting that comes along when 12 petrolheads get together for the weekend. Enjoy your class - you'll not regret going. And good luck with your build!147286

[topherchrisb]

I'm glad you guys are of the opinion I'm probably over worrying about the drive-ability. I think my mindset is similar to what edwardb describes above. The only car I've ever owned that could be considered a "performance" car was an automatic S4 with a NA 4L V8. It was a lot of fun but had all the computers and quattro to make driving fairly easy. The only coyote I've ever driven is a gen 1 in my '12 crew cab F150... probably not a good comparison.

My wife and are about a foot in height difference so doing the seat slider sounds like a great idea. The S4 was also a convertible and was the reasoning behind my thinking highback seats could help with the back pressure at speed. In that car it felt like there was more turbulence coming from the rear in between the head rests at interstate speeds. I could see the taller seats having less possible travel on the sliders but that could be a miss-association in my mind that taller also equals wider.

edwardb your build thread is amazingly detailed. I've only gone through a portion of the 20th anniversary one so far but even just the clarity in the pictures is impressive by themselves let alone the effort you put into describing what's going on through out. Then you even have the table of contents section... you deserve kudos sir. I can see myself referencing that thread frequently and I'll probably use it so much I'll have to cite you as a reference in my signature when/if I get to that point.

I'm looking forward to the build school more every day msbrown6, thanks.

[CobraboyDR]

So my question to you is have you actually driven one of these? Not easy because most (including me) give rides but don't allow others to drive. If you haven't, I can only say I'll bet you'll be surprised how easy and well mannered they are to drive. Granted there's a lot of power and things can change in a hurry. But with a nice running engine like the Coyote, a well setup chassis with power steering (increased caster), IRS, good brakes, etc. it's a very nice driving car. Other than manual shift, which not everyone knows how to use these days, everything else about driving the car is pretty easy. I still remember my first drive in our first Mk3. I had never driven one myself until my first build was done. After reading all the scary comments and "it will kill you" posts, I was afraid the thing was going to jump off the road and run me into a tree. Seriously... What I found instead was what I described above. Builds since then with better parts have only gotten better. Not to downplay the seriousness of respecting what you have and using your foot and brains as I described, these cars are not hard to drive. Maybe that's a little bit of the problem. Drivers can become complacent and then get over their heads.You have to admit there is a difference in driving one with 175hp around town with a light foot and 450hp when you go all foot stompy.

I used to have a Hyabusa in my not-so-distant perpetual and petulant Peter Pan Syndrome middle years. That, too, could be docile and an easy ride. But a big difference when the throttle got cracked more than 1/3. I should be dead. My current scoot is a V-Strom with a third of the same power...and can still kill me if I'm an idiot and don't respect the laws of physics.

Many dream of major hrspers and terqs in a light car. But dreaming of driving 450+hrspers and actually putting the entire 450 stable on the asphalt are two entirely different things.

These cars will kill you if you are an idiot and don't respect the laws of physics. They can also be highly addictive if you aren't an idiot and do respect the laws of physics.

They are not hard to drive. Just unforgiving.

[edwardb]

You have to admit there is a difference in driving one with 175hp around town with a light foot and 450hp when you go all foot stompy.

I used to have a Hyabusa in my not-so-distant perpetual and petulant Peter Pan Syndrome middle years. That, too, could be docile and an easy ride. But a big difference when the throttle got cracked more than 1/3. I should be dead. My current scoot is a V-Strom with a third of the same power...and can still kill me if I'm an idiot and don't respect the laws of physics.

Many dream of major hrspers and terqs in a light car. But dreaming of driving 450+hrspers and actually putting the entire 450 stable on the asphalt are two entirely different things.

These cars will kill you if you are an idiot and don't respect the laws of physics. They can also be highly addictive if you aren't an idiot and do respect the laws of physics.

They are not hard to drive. Just unforgiving.

OK... We're saying the same thing. :confused:

[nucjd19]

I had the manual v8 S4 and manual V8 S5. Those were some fun cars. I did not like where they set the engine ( very forward creating quite a bit if understeer) but otherwise just sleeper machines. No one wold suspect the power!

[GT53]

What hotel did any of you stay at while at build school? I am signed up for an early August class and was curious as to where I might find decent lodging close to the facility.

Thanks.............Greg

[phileas_fogg]

I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express just off the I-475. 1150 Robert T Longway Blvd, Flint, MI 48503; (810) 238-7744‬.

Great call on going to the build school. The instructors are exceptionally good, and will help you avoid many common pitfalls. When I went back in 2015, they gave us a manual; I took notes in it as we built the car. As has been said, take lots of pictures (especially of how they routed brake & fuel lines). If you've read through the manual & something doesn't look clear, take a list of questions. Plus you can get additional photos of how the problem area is supposed to go together. Don't worry about trying to catch every tip they provide; you'll never get them all, and between your classmates & this forum the ones you miss will be captured for you. If you're not yet comfortable with a technique (like bending or flaring brake lines), this is a great opportunity to practice. You're gonna love it!


John

[GT53]

I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express just off the I-475. 1150 Robert T Longway Blvd, Flint, MI 48503; (810) 238-7744‬.

Great call on going to the build school. The instructors are exceptionally good, and will help you avoid many common pitfalls. When I went back in 2015, they gave us a manual; I took notes in it as we built the car. As has been said, take lots of pictures (especially of how they routed brake & fuel lines). If you've read through the manual & something doesn't look clear, take a list of questions. Plus you can get additional photos of how the problem area is supposed to go together. Don't worry about trying to catch every tip they provide; you'll never get them all, and between your classmates & this forum the ones you miss will be captured for you. If you're not yet comfortable with a technique (like bending or flaring brake lines), this is a great opportunity to practice. You're gonna love it!


John

Thanks John, I appreciate the feedback. To say that I am excited about the whole experience including the Build School would be a monumental understatement. I don't like to wish the days away, especially at my age, but I can't wait to get started. It's going to be a fun ride to say the least.

Greg

[danmas]

Hey gang,

I am also a bit north of Denver and just starting my quest. I am going to late August build school and I want to do an MK4 with a 427 in it. I think I will really enjoy the mechanical side of things but, not super excited about the body work side of things. That being said, I am looking forward to having it in my garage and building it out over the next couple years. I expect some of us Colorado types could get together and chat about things on occasion. In any respect, it will be a fun journey.

Regards,
Dan

[CobraboyDR]

I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express just off the I-475. 1150 Robert T Longway Blvd, Flint, MI 48503; (810) 238-7744‬.

Great call on going to the build school. The instructors are exceptionally good, and will help you avoid many common pitfalls. When I went back in 2015, they gave us a manual; I took notes in it as we built the car. As has been said, take lots of pictures (especially of how they routed brake & fuel lines). If you've read through the manual & something doesn't look clear, take a list of questions. Plus you can get additional photos of how the problem area is supposed to go together. Don't worry about trying to catch every tip they provide; you'll never get them all, and between your classmates & this forum the ones you miss will be captured for you. If you're not yet comfortable with a technique (like bending or flaring brake lines), this is a great opportunity to practice. You're gonna love it!


JohnOne might consider a small hand-held video camera like the DJI Pocket 2 as an adjunct to pictures alone. If a picture is worth 1,000 words, a video with instructions is worth 1,000,000...

A reward for the completion of my video documentary project is Build School, a brilliant idea to augment mechanical things of which I have no experience, like bending & routing brake and fuel lines, and full wiring harness installation.

[nucjd19]

I wanted to do it but......COVID...... So I leaned heavily on the forum and read a lot. Just another aspect for you to consider that it can be done without the build school. I think it is awesome and would have attended if I have had a chance.

I have said before I am not sure why they don't record their build school and sell an online version. I am sure they would make a ton of money on it with folks that can't make it to the build school and want direction. I don't think it would pull away from attendance as there are folks that will always want hands on. It could be an online course. It would benefit the community and the school. Just my opinion.

[ChasNMe]

I think the build school has moved recently so be careful about picking hotel, make sure its near correct location. I went 2 years ago and I found that half the class wanted to build and half wanted to take notes and pictures. I found you could not do both or the car just wouldn't get built in the 3 days. I did as much wrenching as I could. got a couple pics in here and there, and probably forgot most of it anyway. I still think it was worth it though. had fun, met a bunch of peeps, built a car in 3 days, and any questions I come up with have been answered on this forum 100 times. have fun at the school . . . .

[topherchrisb]

I think the build school has moved recently so be careful about picking hotel, make sure its near correct location. I went 2 years ago and I found that half the class wanted to build and half wanted to take notes and pictures. I found you could not do both or the car just wouldn't get built in the 3 days. I did as much wrenching as I could. got a couple pics in here and there, and probably forgot most of it anyway. I still think it was worth it though. had fun, met a bunch of peeps, built a car in 3 days, and any questions I come up with have been answered on this forum 100 times. have fun at the school . . . .

Yeah I may have messed that up? I used the FFR site accommodations section and chose the Holiday Inn on 5353 Gateway. It looks a long ways on google maps but it also says it's only 12 minutes away. Not terrible. I've never been to Flint neither... so it might be fun to have some scenic route drives to see parts of it.

I'd rather see the car complete next weekend than have all the pictures/notes and to me being able to put the whole car together in 3 days is pretty amazing already. There is also the benefit of having my father in law with me. We get twice the eyes, hands, and experience to carry back with us. I've also started reaching out and have a couple meetings lined up with local builders so getting their perspectives have me less worried about trying to capture every thought via notes at the school. My first one of those meetings is today. I'm pretty excited to see one of these machines up close.

I should have asked Amber this but do we bring our own lunch?

[topherchrisb]

I had the manual v8 S4 and manual V8 S5. Those were some fun cars. I did not like where they set the engine ( very forward creating quite a bit if understeer) but otherwise just sleeper machines. No one wold suspect the power!

Mine was not as much as a sleeper with headers, exhaust and tune. We still have our old manual A4 because it's so fun even without the extra power. I'm hoping one day I can get an S again... right now with three kids and a dog it's the Expedition that goes every where. I just looked at how many miles I put on the truck even since I changed the oil last June. 629 miles! That's barely over one tank of gas in that thing.

[edwardb]

Yeah I may have messed that up? I used the FFR site accommodations section and chose the Holiday Inn on 5353 Gateway. It looks a long ways on google maps but it also says it's only 12 minutes away. Not terrible. I've never been to Flint neither... so it might be fun to have some scenic route drives to see parts of it.

I'd rather see the car complete next weekend than have all the pictures/notes and to me being able to put the whole car together in 3 days is pretty amazing already. There is also the benefit of having my father in law with me. We get twice the eyes, hands, and experience to carry back with us. I've also started reaching out and have a couple meetings lined up with local builders so getting their perspectives have me less worried about trying to capture every thought via notes at the school. My first one of those meetings is today. I'm pretty excited to see one of these machines up close.

I should have asked Amber this but do we bring our own lunch?

That hotel location is Grand Blanc. Pretty new and a nice location. Safe. I wouldn't change it. Easy drive up to the build school. Lunch is provided.

I don't consider Flint itself to be an area for scenic driving. But lots around there in all directions.

[topherchrisb]

Well this sucks. Our flight was canceled and our two options are rental car crap shoot from Detriot tonight (which has not lined up with the few I've tried so far) or not getting in to Flint till tomorrow night. I tried writing Amber at MCC for options to get pushed to a next available slot but she is out of office for a bit. I know it's a ridiculous request anyway but doesn't hurt to try will I'm sitting here at the airport waiting.

[edwardb]

Well this sucks. Our flight was canceled and our two options are rental car crap shoot from Detriot tonight (which has not lined up with the few I've tried so far) or not getting in to Flint till tomorrow night. I tried writing Amber at MCC for options to get pushed to a next available slot but she is out of office for a bit. I know it's a ridiculous request anyway but doesn't hurt to try will I'm sitting here at the airport waiting.

You're stuck at the Detroit Airport? Wish I could help but just can't do it today. Taxi out of the question? Shame to miss a whole day of class.

[topherchrisb]

You're stuck at the Detroit Airport? Wish I could help but just can't do it today. Taxi out of the question? Shame to miss a whole day of class.

I should have been more clear... I never made it out of Denver. If I wasn't bringing my father in law with me I'd be more likely to take on those logistical type challenges but I didn't want to take the alternate flight into Detroit last night without a solidified plan. I think I was on hold for an accumulated time of over two hours trying to line up a ride. I even called a couple limo companies. :P So hopefully I can work out some sort of deal with the college for a re-registration in a future class. Just so hard to get anyone on the phone these days.

[egchewy79]

I feel for you, man. Hopefully you can get something worked out. FWIW, I didn't go to the build school, had very basic mechanical knowledge, and have a gelcoat driver currently. I learned to rebuild a small block Ford during this time as well. This and the other forum plus youtube have given me more than enough resources to accomplish a feat that seems unmanageable at first. I tried to learn about my build one thing at a time. Otherwise it was info overload and my brain couldn't retain all that info. I kept telling myself, "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time". Good luck

[Chris Wingardh]

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