View Full Version : Power Steering, Y / N?
I am about to buy a kit and this is another one I have to decide.
On the one hand the car is light as a feather
On the other hand a V8 is sitting on really wide tires
I owned a car with manual steering when I was young and all you had to do was
to make sure the care was rolling even the tiniest bit and it was ok.
Bring the car to a stop and you have a workout on your hands
Not a big deal w/o PS and I tell you for an old car I could feel every pebble under the tires
On the other hand, one fingered driving aint bad either
On a scale of 1-10 how hard is manual steering on one of these?
....Does F5 have units you can test drive?
cob427sc
02-16-2021, 05:40 PM
I have built/owned/driven 7 FFR cars, none with power steering and never really missed it. Currently have a 33 HR and this has the heaviest steering of them all (or is it my advanced age?) but once its rolling no problems at all. I don't believe F5 has test drives anymore (in the early days they toss you the keys and say go have fun. Insurance companies frowned.) Most people who have cars are willing to let you at least sit and ride in their build. Post your location and if anyone is close they'll show you what you need to know.
swwebb
02-16-2021, 05:52 PM
As you mentioned, manual steering is hard when you are stopped. It's a 7 on my scale.
I added electric power steering after a couple of years with manual. I won't go back. The advantage with power steering is that you can add caster so it tracks straight better. I'm sure others will chime in. The advantage of electric power steering is that it is adjustable on the fly, so you can have manual steering if you want. However, with the added caster, I'm not sure if you would want to!!
Race cars don't have power steering! I have 6-degrees of caster on my car and manual steering -- no problem for this old man.
BradCraig
02-16-2021, 06:40 PM
I've never driven one without PS and I'm guessing it isn't bad. However, I REALLY like my KRC power steering an it gives just the right amount of resistance as to not feel like a Cadillac. When making my decision I found no one that said they wish they didn't do PS and I wanted my Wife to be able to handle it when she drove it.
wallace18
02-16-2021, 06:48 PM
I have built 14 FFR kits. On the ones I built for customers that did not want PS they wished they had listened to me and had it installed once they drove the finished car. Almost every car since the 1980's has had PS and PB. I personally will not own one without unless it is an 818 which is so light it does not need it. Just my 2 cents worth.
GoDadGo
02-16-2021, 07:00 PM
I've only built one Factory Five MK4 and it has a manual rack.
Do I wish the car had Power Steering?
Nope!
Note:..The primary use of my car is cruising around with Mrs. Go-Dad & rare trips down the 1/8 or 1/4 mile drag strip.
rich grsc
02-16-2021, 07:07 PM
I've only built one Factory Five MK4 and it has a manual rack.
Do I wish the car had Power Steering?
Nope!
Note:..The primary use of my car is cruising around with Mrs. Go-Dad & rare trips down the 1/8 or 1/4 mile drag strip.
Because you don't know any better:rolleyes:
I think this topic has been discussed many times and it's the same every time; strong opinions on both sides. I went with power steering on my car and like it. If properly set up, it doesn't feel light at all, but makes parking effortless. It also improves front end geometry compared with the "standard" manual setup. If you're asking about it, you're probably a good candidate to go power.
Dave
edwardb
02-16-2021, 08:18 PM
Yup, talked about a lot. You'll get strong opinions on both sides. My standard response: Power steering isn't only about the effort, even though most seem to go there. Including your initial question and most of the responses so far. The big advantage is the improved front end geometry with increased caster. Just plain drives better. I've had both and won't go back.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?29327-Power-steering-or-not-Pros-and-cons
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14216-Power-steering
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?35093-Power-Steering-vs-Manual-Steering
No, Factory Five doesn't allow test drives. Some have been lucky enough to get a ride from Dave though.
Wbauman
02-16-2021, 10:11 PM
Both here too. PS no question and I’m a muscle bound gear head and always had manual setups. Once I drove one with PS I wondered why I was so stubborn before. Believe me after Building 6 and hardly driving them, anything you do to make the experience more enjoyable will get you on the car more.
Yeah yeah the shear power and raw race car is fun for a little while.
Ducky2009
02-16-2021, 10:21 PM
I've driven both. That said, I have PS and power brakes
mike223
02-16-2021, 10:43 PM
1:On the one hand the car is light as a feather
On the other hand a V8 is sitting on really wide tires
2:I owned a car with manual steering when I was young and all you had to do was
to make sure the care was rolling even the tiniest bit and it was ok.
Bring the car to a stop and you have a workout on your hands
3:Not a big deal w/o PS and I tell you for an old car I could feel every pebble under the tires
On the other hand, one fingered driving aint bad either.
On all three counts you have it exactly right.
A few further thoughts on each:
1 - You've got it exactly right.
2 - You know exactly what to expect, and you ain't as young as you used to be - I started with manual, and it was exactly what I expected + not bad (if you know what to expect). Changed over to EPAS because I wasn't sure I'd want to continue to wrestle with it in advancing years. Also added a 1.5:1 steering quickener for autocross + other enthusiastic driving endeavors and you definitely don't want to try a ratio faster than 15:1 (about as fast as you can get std manual) without some form of power assist.
3 - You've got it exactly right (and time isn't doing any of us any favors).
Many add it after the fact. Almost none remove it.
frankb
02-17-2021, 08:24 AM
As frd2 above stated, I am one of those who added it after the build was finished and driven for a year or so. It was manageable without power steering, especially since I never parallel parked it. But it was a workout when not moving or moving slow! So I added it in (E Power Steering) a year or so ago and am very happy I did. I keep it adjusted to minimum assist level and can only tell it is there when moving slow! Bottom line: If you are unsure, go with electric power steering and you can have it both ways! I'm betting you won't do without it once you have tried it! :cool:
ggunter
02-17-2021, 08:57 AM
I have driven both and I love my power steering!!!
steno
02-17-2021, 09:20 AM
After a couple years, went with power steering. Plain old school OEM-type with the pressure spring trimmed to 1 7/16”. Plenty of assist when you need it, and great driving at speed due to the added caster.
Jeff Kleiner
02-17-2021, 09:37 AM
It's no secret that edwardb and I are probably the top two proponents of power steering you'll find here. EVERY car I've built has it and EVERY one who asks me is advised to do it. People seem to think that it's all about steering effort, especially some of the "manly men" who like to do some chest thumping but the reality is that is far from the primary reason. Power steering allows you to run much more positive caster which promotes straight line stability and return to center as well as increasing camber gain while cornering. Plain and simple the car just drives down the road better. For autocross and track use it is pretty much mandatory if you really want to be able to get the most out of the car (some of those same manly men find out that there is no way they can truly hustle a manual rack car). As far as "road feel" this can be tuned to the driver's preference either by the use of a Heidt's variable boost valve or by changes to the pressure relief spring.
In the end...Just do it!
Jeff
CaptB
02-17-2021, 09:39 AM
Power steering.
rich grsc
02-17-2021, 09:50 AM
This really is a silly debate. There aren't any real down sides to power steering, only upside. As has been stated, the best improvement come in how much better the car drives and handles, ease of steering is second. Had manual steering in the old car, power in this one, was amazed how much the stability of car improved on the highway. Don't think about just do it.
Silly? Perhaps. But is it not silly to run power steering, power brakes, and still shift your own gears when auto trans technology has supplanted the manual transmission? Autos are outperforming manual trans in a variety of racing disciplines -- there's no manual trans that shifts faster than an auto, not even those $30K sequential clutchless transmissions.
Or maybe it's just one of those personal choice things that makes us feel good. I feel good knowing that I don't have an extra 10lbs of weight on the front end of my race car because I want easier steering at slow speed. However, on my street cars I'd NEVER buy a daily driver without power steering. Even my 1600lb SXS off-road vehicle has power steering and I'm looking at replacing my two 700lb ATVs with ones with power steering. So I get it. But do you need power steering in one of these light cars? That's a personal choice. I know if John Wayne was buying one he'd skip the power steering as a real man doesn't need it.:)
ptstew
02-17-2021, 12:44 PM
I installed PS using an early 90’s Mustang pump and a 3 turn LTL rack after driving my car for 18 years with manual steering. It’s the best change I ever made on the car!
BradCraig
02-17-2021, 01:12 PM
This really is a silly debate. There aren't any real down sides to power steering, only upside. As has been stated, the best improvement come in how much better the car drives and handles, ease of steering is second. Had manual steering in the old car, power in this one, was amazed how much the stability of car improved on the highway. Don't think about just do it.
Correct, stupid debate. I drove a 280Z for 8 years with no PS and i'll never do that again. If you are blasting the car down a drag strip, I get it.
BradCraig
02-17-2021, 01:13 PM
Silly? Perhaps. But is it not silly to run power steering, power brakes, and still shift your own gears when auto trans technology has supplanted the manual transmission? Autos are outperforming manual trans in a variety of racing disciplines -- there's no manual trans that shifts faster than an auto, not even those $30K sequential clutchless transmissions.
Or maybe it's just one of those personal choice things that makes us feel good. I feel good knowing that I don't have an extra 10lbs of weight on the front end of my race car because I want easier steering at slow speed. However, on my street cars I'd NEVER buy a daily driver without power steering. Even my 1600lb SXS off-road vehicle has power steering and I'm looking at replacing my two 700lb ATVs with ones with power steering. So I get it. But do you need power steering in one of these light cars? That's a personal choice. I know if John Wayne was buying one he'd skip the power steering as a real man doesn't need it.:)
John Wayne also chose a horse over a bike. :-)
CaptB
02-17-2021, 01:45 PM
"Race Car" is it really a "Race Car" if you're not actively racing it?
GoDadGo
02-17-2021, 01:59 PM
"Race Car" is it really a "Race Car" if you're not actively racing it?
Hey Captain,
If you are talking about "The NAZ Man" his is a race car.
From the firewall back, his car was 100% fabricated by The NAZ Man.
Check it out and I'm sure you too will be impressed.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=1675
Steve
"Race Car" is it really a "Race Car" if you're not actively racing it?
Agree. Just having fun with the debate and my buddy Rich, who I also share many opinions with. Did you notice I'm actually considering trading two perfectly good ATVs in for ones that have Power Steering, and the power steering is the only reason I'm considering them? I truly get it.
rich grsc
02-17-2021, 02:35 PM
WAIT, so John Wayne's horse didn't have power steering?:rolleyes:
ggunter
02-17-2021, 04:12 PM
Don't NASCAR's have power steering...They are real race cars right?
Jim Wehr
02-17-2021, 06:40 PM
I have it. My car was built for autocrossing, so it really was necessary. However, I have the boost turned way down for the street.
GoDadGo
02-17-2021, 07:53 PM
Because you don't know any better:rolleyes:
Correct!
RBachman
02-17-2021, 11:33 PM
Yes. And more yes
Nigel Allen
02-18-2021, 12:32 AM
When I drove my roadster as a go kart the manual steering felt fine. Once I added the body I didnt like it so much. For me, part of the issue is the confines of the cabin. I find I am only steering with one, to one and a half arms, as my elbow always hits on the door, and I am not a big guy, round, but not big. I guess I could have thrown the drivers door away, but the car gets too much attention already. So power steering was the solution. I only fitted it a couple of weeks ago and I'll never go back.
Cheers,
Nigel
JIMOCO
02-18-2021, 01:57 PM
Both NASCAR and F1 have power steering but Indy cars do not.
Avalanche325
02-18-2021, 02:36 PM
If you are going to even think about autocross - absolutely.
Georgie
02-18-2021, 03:07 PM
Yes for power steering!
Hoooper
02-18-2021, 03:19 PM
This really is a silly debate. There aren't any real down sides to power steering, only upside.
Weight, steering feel, parasitic drag. Not really any question that PS adds weight, adds parasitic drag, and decreases steering feel. May not make it "worse" overall but no question those are real downsides.
On a separate note, its all a steering effort question in the end. As far as I am aware there is nothing stopping you from dialing in a manual steering alignment to the same specs as a power steering alignment other than steering effort
rich grsc
02-18-2021, 05:47 PM
Weight, steering feel, parasitic drag. Not really any question that PS adds weight, adds parasitic drag, and decreases steering feel. May not make it "worse" overall but no question those are real downsides.
On a separate note, its all a steering effort question in the end. As far as I am aware there is nothing stopping you from dialing in a manual steering alignment to the same specs as a power steering alignment other than steering effort
I do, they bogus
Weight---the car is 2300#, 15# of steering pump is meaningless, I can take a dump and make 1/2 that
Parasitic drag---can't get all the power to the ground now, and I'm running Avon track tires
Steering feel---nothing different at all between this car and my old non-power car, in fact this one is WAY more stable and sure footed
Go ahead and put 8* of caster in your car and tell me how great the road feel is. :D
Nigel Allen
02-18-2021, 06:22 PM
100% agree with Rich. Just dropped my daughter at school, then went for a spirited drive through some great twisties nearby. (Absolutely perfect driving weather over here right now) First run on this route since fitting EPAS a couple of weeks ago. Parasitic loss? Who cares. This thing is now so much quicker point to point.
Extra weight? Who cares. It is way quicker. (Took a dump before I left)
Reduced feel? Slightly, but most feedback was of big tyres trying to wrench the wheel from my grip on tight undulating bends. I don't miss that.
The car feels safer as it can be recovered quickly and is now rock solid. Oh yeah, did I mention that point to point is way quicker.
Over and out
CobraboyDR
02-20-2021, 03:52 PM
Need some info here:
Why and how does PS allow more caster in a FFR?
Need some info here:
Why and how does PS allow more caster in a FFR?
Caster has a self-centering affect on the front wheels. More caster increases straight-line stability at speed which resists turning, requiring more steering effort on the wheel. Most noticeable at very slow speed such as trying to turn into a parking spot.
CobraboyDR
02-20-2021, 04:22 PM
Caster has a self-centering affect on the front wheels. More caster increases straight-line stability at speed which resists turning, requiring more steering effort on the wheel. Most noticeable at very slow speed such as trying to turn into a parking spot.I understand caster.
I am curious about the PS/caster relationship.
Cannot more caster be dialed in without PS?
What am I missing?
All my Cobras were without PS, just like my old '66 Chebby C10 truck. I never had any issue turning the Cobras. The C10 required actual muscle.
Jeff Kleiner
02-20-2021, 04:49 PM
I understand caster.
I am curious about the PS/caster relationship.
Cannot more caster be dialed in without PS?
What am I missing?
All my Cobras were without PS, just like my old '66 Chebby C10 truck. I never had any issue turning the Cobras. The C10 required actual muscle.
With increased caster comes increased steering effort because the car’s weight is resisting the wheels coming off center. So, the same geometry that helps return the wheels to center and keep them on center going down the road acts against turning them—power assist overcomes this resistance. You can run 8 degrees on a manual rack but the steering effort would be extremely high.
Jeff
CobraboyDR
02-20-2021, 05:24 PM
With increased caster comes increased steering effort because the car’s weight is resisting the wheels coming off center. So, the same geometry that helps return the wheels to center and keep them on center going down the road acts against turning them—power assist overcomes this resistance. You can run 8 degrees on a manual rack but the steering effort would be extremely high.
JeffGotcha! Makes sense.
ggunter
02-27-2021, 07:06 AM
From what I understand. The extra caster not only helps the car go straight down the road but it also helps to overcome the push back from the power steering when the car wants to return the steering wheel to center after a turn. If that makes sense.
ggunter
02-27-2021, 08:07 AM
From what I understand, caster helps the car go straight down the road. Like a shopping cart wheel being pushed forward, and also helps the car return the steering wheel back to center after a turn. I was also told that the added caster over a manual box is to help return the wheel to center and overcome the pushback from the power steerings resistance to movement from the car as well as help control bump steer. I hope that makes sense.
walt mckenna
02-27-2021, 08:29 AM
Need some info here:
Why and how does PS allow more caster in a FFR?
You can put more positive caster adjustment in a car with manual rack the same as a power rack, but the steering effort goes up as the degrees of positive caster goes up. To repeat: power steering decreases steering effort allowing more positive caster. The two added bonuses of more caster is straight line stability and turn-in camber.
silver_pilate
02-27-2021, 09:03 AM
I can confirm that bump steer is way better after EPAS install. The car is more stable, more confident, and more fun to drive now.
rich grsc
02-27-2021, 09:44 AM
From what I understand, caster helps the car go straight down the road. Like a shopping cart wheel being pushed forward, and also helps the car return the steering wheel back to center after a turn. I was also told that the added caster over a manual box is to help return the wheel to center and overcome the pushback from the power steerings resistance to movement from the car as well as help control bump steer. I hope that makes sense.
Sorry that's backwards. The PS helps overcome the extra effort needed that is caused by more caster.
egchewy79
02-27-2021, 09:57 AM
More positive caster=increased steering effort.
walt mckenna
02-28-2021, 08:45 AM
Need some info here:
Why and how does PS allow more caster in a FFR?
You can run as much caster on a manual rack as you can on a power rack, it's just that steering effort goes up as the degrees of caster go up. Most people shy away from going much above 5 degrees with a manual rack.
skullandbones
03-03-2021, 04:29 PM
Opinions may be strong but a poll would show favor toward PS of one kind or another.
Personally, I was finally convinced by Jeff K after reading about a PS setup with Heidt's valve allowing variable control to the pump. Ratio stays the same, of course. However, if you want a very quick feel, it is the way to go. My main goals were to aid in AXing and make it comfortable of my wife while driving. Life is funny. I still haven't utilized the car for either of those original purposes. Oh well!
Answer: yes