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CobraboyDR
02-10-2021, 04:46 PM
In a closed thread, GoDaddyGo asked what my future build plans are. I thought the question deserved an answer.

There are things I'd like, and things that make sense.

One caveat: I want to "build" my next project with new parts, Build School and all. I might even fly down a body guy for body prep help & edumacation since I have zero experience in working fiberglass and doubt locals have any fiberglass experience at all. Hence FFR is on top of the list for many reasons. Others are on the radar, but the clear preference is FFR, otherwise, I'd have already pulled the trigger...

Second caveat: I lean more "originalist" than not, recognizing "original" means $X,XXX,XXX. If I can't BE original, I wanna at least LOOK more original. I'm not a car show guy, so when I hear "build it the way you want", this is my preference, and have no issue with how anyone else spends their $$$ at all.

Keep in mind that I will have to pay ocean shipping and 56% taxes & import duty to bring any repro to the DR, including a kit. So take your all-in costs and add 60% to it. Suddenly, lower costs become magnified, otherwise, I'd have a Kirkham with aluminum FE. That $55-60k you spent becomes $88-100k in my world. Kinda changes thinking somewhat, no? BTW: I think there are three FFR's on the island, one that Dave Smith highlighted in some marketing materials. I did see a SPF Daytona coupe at an officially-sanctioned DR car club rally (car shows here are very, very different.) I'm guessing the owner has upwards of $175+k in it. Must be nice!

I'd LIKE a slab-side, but the choices are limited and either too rich for my blood, or I don't want to wait in line for 2+ years. I know a slab-side body is available through Mr. Bruce, but I don't want to get into that much glass and mod work to make it happen. But slab-sides are rare and don't get lost in a sea of S/C replicas. This is a "like."

I like FE big blocks which have powered three of the four repros I've owned, the other being a pedestrian 351W. I know FE's well. 90% of our SPF sales were FE's from the late Bill Parham's outfit. But unless you go with a 390 block an FE gets really spendy fast, and I'm not sure I want a 390 masquerading as a 428/427 in MY cage. Possible, but not my first choice. A stroked and tricked out 390 can get you to 445 cubes with big power but at a price not that much less than a 428CJ. A top or sideoiler 427 is becoming monster spendy. Aluminum blocks just compound the expense. This a "like" that doesn't make much "sense."

I do like 289FIA cars, trunk dimples and all, and FFR makes a fine example. Unique & ERA do, too, but the FFR frame is a winner, for sure. An FIA car also is a proper small block car, so no excuses for the motor are required. FIAs are also fairly rare and make an interesting history lesson for folks who don't know much of the Cobra story. This is a definite "like."

I also like street roadsters. A LOT. No scoop, rollbar, UCE and full bumpers, less testosterone. Gorgeous. But a 427 roadster is still a "big block" car along with the big block costs, a real "like" that doesn't make a lot of "sense.".

That leads me to an intriguing compromise, the best of the "roadster" and "SBF" world, where "like" also makes "sense": a replica of the British 1966 AC 289 Sport MkIII, a small block, wide-flared roadsters (nobody except Kirkham makes a narrow-hop roadster, and the process of changing the S/C rear to narrow-hip is well beyond my capabilities.) The Brits didn't think a 427 would sell in Jolly Ol' for numerous reasons, so instead of putting an FE in the MkIII roadster, they put in the 289. With wire wheels. Now some converted the wires to Halibrand wheels, but IMO the wire-wheeled version is unique and gorgeous for a streetcar. The car has no Cobra emblems because AC didn't own it. It's badged and licensed A/C, no snakes anywhere. It's the exact same car they shipped to Shelby as the 427 roadster, just the Brit version. AC later became AutoKraft. These were COB, not CSX, cars.:

https://images1.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2012-08/08/8606807-1-11.jpg&width=640&height=480&autosizefit=1

In purple. I'm fairly certain it won't be purple:
https://images45.fotki.com/v159/photos/5/40265/10240182/std_1966_ac_cobra_mk_iii_289-vi.jpg

A SBF is natural in one and I'm thinking a mid-tuned 302/306/331 around 350-375hp/390tq range would be the ticket, quick and fast without absurdity, dressed as the original, vintage 289. The original AC 289 Sports MKIII did a 4.7 second 0-60 and 13.5 1/4mi. with 271hp/310tq and 185/15 bias-ply tires. I am reasonably certain those figures can be improved.

Additionally, Dayton can build custom spline-drive wire wheels in almost any configuration & backspace along with adapters; they cost more, but are very do-able. The AC 298 Sport came with 6"x15" wheels. I suspect a 7" wire wheel built with more favorable backspace & adapter could fit on the FFR IRS and still look "normal" in the rear wheel wells, without concern for "deep dish" Halibrand look as on the Shelby S/C models. Decent rubber, maybe 205/70's, could be fitted without being overwhelmed by the engine power and go along with the "original" look. My guess is the total width of a 7" wheel on the FFR IRS system has a "built in" backspace vs. more traditional 9.5-10.5" wheels, and would look proper in the wheel well. The front suspension would be standard, not narrowed, FFR specs. Math is required, and there will be a test ;) .

Of course, the 289 Sports MkIII requires UCE, a task made more difficult in FFR's chassis and fuel tank configuration. I'm pondering a 3" sleeve in the rear cross-member, and a custom narrower or shallower or higher fuel tank with heat shielding to make space beneath or to the side for the rear-exit exhaust. I am not too concerned about the inevitable loss of fuel capacity.

The result, IMO, would be a rather unique and one-of-a-kind, but still in the proper AC family of hi-po sleds. If I can convince myself of the engineering challenges, I may do this. I've gone the high-hp & loud S/C route and now gravitate more toward a "gentlemen's" hi-po cruiser, a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Otherwise, the fall-back is an FIA car IF FFR ever offers an IRS/pin-drive combo, or outside vendors engineers a system on the current frame. I have a hard time getting enthusiastic over a solid axle/pin-drive solution, and pin/spline-drive is a "must have." I do think FFR is missing on a sizable share of the market, and no doubt have their business reasons. With the current FFR high-quality parameters, this option would cover the market.

There are some excellent FFR 289FIA examples on this forum, cutting being a prime example off the top of my head.

Lancaster Lad
02-10-2021, 05:55 PM
Cobra DR
Thank you for the info on Dayton. I did not know they did custom backspace, only thought you were
stuck with the spacing that is in their online listing. I have not got around to calling.
This is my vision, wired wheel street version except I need roll bars for 3 point seat belt mounting.
I had Boyd Welding custom cut their standard FFR fuel tank for my rear exhaust. Stateside price
$750.00, expensive but what it takes to have my vision and one and only build.
I don't know how people like you in other countries afford this hobby with all the extra costs and regulations.
Good luck with whatever your choice is.

Cecil

CobraboyDR
02-18-2021, 04:41 PM
This is the Dayton wire wheel. model TW155:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4608/QDUBen.jpg

It comes in 15x8 with a 5.0" backspace and the adapter sits inside of the wheel (except for 1/8",) so in theory it should work with the FFR IRS system.

A 225-235 tire should fit on it just fine. So this may be an interesting IRS/pin-drive solution for my AC 289 Sport Mk.III street roadster project.

It does not come in 15x9, but for those who like thick meat, it does come 15x10 with a 6.25 or 6.5" backspace. That said, the engineer made clear the 10" rim with a 12.62" center drop, and I have no idea how brakes would work out.

Wires don't come in 17", but do come in 18".

Dog-ear spinners are available. Vintage AC repro dog-ears are available, too, maybe $400 a set.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6749/CAo87k.png

Wheel price is roughly $650, which isn't that far off from repro Halibrand pin-drives.

All good to know.

GoDadGo
02-19-2021, 09:05 AM
Hey Cobra Man,

Please accept my apology for being out of line on that earlier thread that David Hodgkins wisely closed.
I felt like you were promoting other manufacturers over Factory Five Racing which struck a nerve.
I, like the rest of the forum members, look forward to seeing you fulfill your dream.
Welcome Aboard & Good Luck!

Steve

CraigS
02-19-2021, 09:20 AM
I 'think' Gordon Levy has a brake kit that will allow 15 inch wheels. If so that is one less problem. If he doesn't, it will be a problem. When I did the IRS retrofit to my old MkII, I had accumulated 3 sets of 17" Bullitt wheels. 2 of the three would clear the OEM Mustang caliper that came w/ my salvage yard rear suspension, but the oldest one would not. If you can solve the brake fitment, I think you can do the pin/spline drive. Used to be when FFR offered a pin drive they got the needed room by using shorter control arms. But I think you can do it w/ standard control arms and your narrow wheels/tires. In other words if a 18x11 wheel fits and you would be satisfied w/ a 10 or a 9 then the pin drive could take up one or two inches of space and the outside of the tire would be in the same position relative to the fender. Also you could get the 10 inch wheel and kind of stretch the tire to fit it. Used to be that a 275/50x15 was a popular size but they are hard to find now. A 255/50x15 would be good on the 10 wheel. Same deal w/ the front. The usual wheel is a 9 inch, so an 8 inch gives you an inch of space for the pin drive adapter hardware.
For your UCE, there have been several threads over the years covering that so it is definitely doable. I'd be looking for wide flat mufflers/resonators and even consider using a pair of cats up front. My idea is that the more sound killing you can do front and midcar, the easier it is to fit enough muffler in the rear.
http://classicchambered.com/

CobraboyDR
02-19-2021, 10:29 AM
But I think you can do it w/ standard control arms and your narrow wheels/tires. In other words if a 18x11 wheel fits and you would be satisfied w/ a 10 or a 9 then the pin drive could take up one or two inches of space and the outside of the tire would be in the same position relative to the fender. Also you could get the 10 inch wheel and kind of stretch the tire to fit it. Used to be that a 275/50x15 was a popular size but they are hard to find now. A 255/50x15 would be good on the 10 wheel. Same deal w/ the front. The usual wheel is a 9 inch, so an 8 inch gives you an inch of space for the pin drive adapter hardware.My thoughts also.

The issue, as I understand it, is the newer IRS is wider, and the backspace of "traditional" Halibrand-type pin-drive wheels would push the wheels way outside the fender.

But since my goal is a pure street replica that was originally shod with wire wheels, the 5" backspace would keep the outside dimension relative with the wheel wells the same as the Halibrand bolt-ons for the IRS. My knowledge on this topic is a work in progress, but I think, as you point out, the math works. Fact is the original wire wheels for both the AC 289 Sports Mk.III and slabside were 15x6 and wore 185 rubber. I see the 8" & 225/235 as a significant upgrade even if not "original." I'm not sold on 10", not sure it goes along with the theme.

FFR sells pin-drive replica Halibrand/FIA wheels for shortened axles, 8" front & 9" rear. I don't see 8" all around on a car that had the same size wheels F&R as a major compromise. And since I'm not planning a drag race Torque Monster, keeping the numbers at 400hp/tq and well below, I have no worries about spline-drive failure on less rear rubber.

So I inch closer to pin-drive/spline-drive wheels on the standard FFR IRS system., and may end up with a most unique replica of the British AC "Cobra," even though they could not legally use the trademark.

CobraboyDR
02-19-2021, 10:46 AM
For your UCE, there have been several threads over the years covering that so it is definitely doable. I'd be looking for wide flat mufflers/resonators and even consider using a pair of cats up front. My idea is that the more sound killing you can do front and midcar, the easier it is to fit enough muffler in the rear.
http://classicchambered.com/Yeah, a "perfect" UCE system with rear exit as originals is frought with complex engineering problems, and as just a simple country boy, I just don't see a simple, elegant solution. So I'm gravitating toward off-the-rack headers connected to 2.25" oval pipes and muffler with a round exit in front of the rear wheels. Less hp allows smaller tubes.

Not exactly what I want, but at the end of the day would work.

That said, with more narrow wheels, there *may* be space for exhaust pipes on the chassis looped over the control arms inside the wheel well, avoiding the fuel tank altogether. I think Jolsen42 did something along this line on his gorgeous BRG streetcar.

CobraboyDR
02-19-2021, 10:49 AM
Hey Cobra Man,

Please accept my apology for being out of line on that earlier thread that David Hodgkins wisely closed.
I felt like you were promoting other manufacturers over Factory Five Racing which struck a nerve.
I, like the rest of the forum members, look forward to seeing you fulfill your dream.
Welcome Aboard & Good Luck!

SteveDa Nada, forgotten long ago. Knowledge is power. My intentions were to share information

I have stated often: I am a FFR fan.

GoDadGo
02-21-2021, 08:24 AM
Here is the most original 1963 260 AC Cobra owned by the Great Herbie Hancock.

https://youtu.be/x1SQn4stkXA

It may give you some good reference material & views for your future build.

CobraboyDR
02-21-2021, 10:15 AM
Here is the most original 1963 260 AC Cobra owned by the Great Herbie Hancock.

https://youtu.be/x1SQn4stkXA

It may give you some good reference material & views for your future build.Very cool, a 260 slab.

What I want is the AC 289 Sports. When Shelby offered the fat-fendered, thick-framed, big Block 427 Mk.III roadster...remember, he bought chassis and bodies from AC in Jolly Ol' and shipped them to the states...AC also had rights to this design, but not the "Cobra" name. After all, they built it in partnership with, not license from, Shelby. But the Brits had an entirely different road culture there, where four-bangers were common, Morgan+4's had plywood chassis, Jag 4.2L DOHC six-bangers were King, the AC Cobra 289 was a ridiculous supercar.

Highway deaths in GB were increasing with higher speeds on roads not designed for it, and public outrage...as well as gas prices...was rising. AC didn't think they could sell a 6.7L V-8 in their car and didn't want the political pushback from any blame for even faster cars on their roads causing havoc, so instead chose to put the venerable 271 hp Ford pushrod 289 V-8 in this model. So, really, it's the same exact car as the Shelby 427 Cobra roadster, but with a 289 in it from the factory. Still a supercar, just not a road spaceship.

In cross-oceanic irony, fact is Shelby couldn't sell 427 Cobra Roadsters, and AC couldn't sell their AC 289 Sports Mk.III. Both went away, Shelby getting more immersed in racing, and AutoKraft eventually buying AC Motorcar assets.

I *think* I can make a reasonably accurate reproduction with the FFR roadster kit, based on research about wire wheels and the FFR IRS and some real possibilities of an undercar exhaust with straight pipes out the rear (thanks, I think, to the 8" wheels :D.) Two areas where I will have to compromise because they are well outside my fabrication expertise: 1) altering the rear fenders from prominent flared lips to "narrow hip" fenders, and 2) Change the gas cap from depressed LeMans racing type to top of the fender., Oh, in LHD, not RHD.

Maybe some enterprising fiberglass fabricator can come forward with a plan for both, for which I would offer two hambergers tomorrow for a hamburger today... ;)

GoDadGo
02-21-2021, 10:31 AM
This car, built by Master Builder Erik Treves, debuted at SEMA in 2014.
Erik drove the car during the Hot Rod Power Tour in 2016.
The Black Mamba nickname he gave it was well earned.

https://youtu.be/GcJEprvVxiY

https://youtu.be/uUG1T951QI8

phileas_fogg
02-21-2021, 08:05 PM
Here's a link to Erik's Black Mamba build thread: https://www.ffcars.com/threads/the-black-mamba-289-fia-build.434569/

This dude is an AMAZING builder.


John