ERA & Factory Five: Quality & Authenticity? [Archive]

F-5-R

02-04-2021, 04:11 PM

Hi Everyone,

I hope everyone is staying healthy and getting ready for spring! (Here in NJ we just got 27" of snow! :().

So I have been poking around the internet for Cobra entertainment...of course :rolleyes:. I came across some new & old reviews of ERA vs FFR and other kits as well, but I was shocked to see how little information (from my research) there is on the ERA vs FFR as of 2020/2021. Now understand I'm not a "Cobra snob" and love all Cobra kits from Shelby Continuation Kits to Kirkham's to Factory Five, but I keep finding what I consider misinformation on the "Quality & Authenticity" scope of kit evaluations.

I have been around Cobra kit cars since 2000 and have seen most including Shelby American, Kirkham, ERA and FFR, but I would never say that I could see a noticeable difference in "quality" between ERA and FFR; keeping in mind that the end result / quality of the build is mostly dependent on the builder and I know ERA also sells prebuilt rollers so obviously it can be professionally built, however you can accomplish the same results with a FFR. In the past FFR had the "perky butt" from what Dave Smith described in a video as an molding error, however the newer MK4 as we were told by FFR has been exactly molded from 2x original cobras. So when I see people refer to ERA as more "authentic" in comparing the FFR MK4, I don't understand how? They also have the same 90" wheelbase as per the original cars.

The CSX cars were all uniquely different in subtle ways since they were hand made and the aluminum was shaped over wooden bucks. (Apparently Kirkham makes them for Shelby American today anyways). I have seen two original cars and there are obvious differences. Maybe I'm just crazy? lol

The next piece of misinformation is the frame....correct me if I'm wrong but FRR has always used a 4" round tube based chassis as per the "original" design. Superformance doesn't even do that! I believe every manufacture...including Shelby has "modified" the chassis largely due to the lack of strength the original's had. I doubt you could swap chassis with the original cars...maybe maybe a Kirkham form what I have heard. Most look like a rectangle box...FFR looks like someone had an engineering background IMO.

Lastly the roll bars...can someone explain with pictures why ERA claims its more accurate? Is it just the height?

Just trying to understand why I'm having a hard time seeing what others are saying lol. I also find it hard to trust a website that is still living in 1993, no offence to ERA. Clearly FFR is cutting edge in the dept.

Thanks everyone!

Cheers,
Rob

CobraboyDR

02-04-2021, 06:12 PM

F-5-R, I'm a Cobra guy going back to the 60's. My father, a Ford dealer, was also a Shelby distributor in the 60's for much of the southern US (I rode in my first original 289 slab-side when I was 12, and rode in an original 427 roadster when 14.) I have been SPF dealer, have owned several repros, and driven all but a Kirkham (granted, the FFR was early generation.).

FFR is the Cobra "re-imagined" for modern performance, safety and cost. For instance, FFR has a tall roll-bar for safety, whereas ERA has a roll bar as the original, not nearly as tall and much beefier, for aesthetic/originality reasons.

It is a very fine product but like all, it has several shortcomings.

The only way to really answer your question is to see an original (or even Kirkham) side-by-side with an ERA and FFR (and possibly a Unique, another fine machine.) You WILL see differences, some subtle, some obvious.

ERA strives for originality. FFR does not. ERA wants to BE an original, FFR wants to look like one. One of the most noticeable differences with FFR is very few FFR's have 15" pin-drive wheels, and NONE of the recent versions have pin-drive wheels with IRS. I'm not sure you can even get an ERA with a solid axle, and you will be hard-pressed to find an ERA with anything other than 15" pin-drive wheels. I don't recall ever seeing an ERA with bolt-on wheels.

A big difference with ERA is they will NOT sell you kit components. You pretty much have to build an ERA as they have it, an entire kit with little room for customization. And if you tell them you want to customize, and they don't like what you want to do, they won't sell you a kit, period. They don't have to. They are funny like that. Fact is, this keeps resale of an ERA in high demand because the high quality is comparable in each build...along with the price. And speaking of price, a fully-outfitted turn-key ERA with FE motor carries a really, really high price, higher than an SPF and a few clicks below a glass Kirkham. Of course, it'll be a stellar machine, and it'll look like the real deal.

Another issue with ERA that deters buyers: they have a 2+ year waiting list for their kits. That sorta-kinda tells you something about their business model: they are in no hurry, business expansion is not important, they aren't for everybody, they have business coming out their ears, and frankly they don't care. But they do make an impressive product with a cult following. It is run by some really interesting old-school Cobra geeks who have been doing it their way for years.

The fact is ERA has among the highest resale value of any component car, period.

ERA's are for purists and they don't market themselves otherwise. You won't see ERA's flung around a track very often, and if they did, FFR's would eat them for lunch.

(I've said it before, and will again: I think FFR is missing an opportunity for which consumers would pay dearly by not offering options for IRS with 15" or 17" pin-drive wheels, and engineering for easier under-car exhaust systems. Hey, FFR engineers: why not look into modifying a chassis to accommodate a bolt-in Jag IRS package?)

ERA and FFR operate off completely different business models and both have been very successful at what they do.

You just have to decide what is most important to you: originality or performance, how important the build process is to you, and at what value and time?

...........

A year or so ago, I did a spreadsheet on the costs of building an FFR 289FIA vs. ERA 289FIA as I wanted them, with me doing most of the labor. Interestingly enough, the difference was only around 15% premium. That said, the ERA was Jag IRS and the FFR was IRS with bolt-on wheels. It's the factory labor on an ERA turn-key sled that gets really spendy.

edwardb

02-04-2021, 09:24 PM

CobraboyDR's post is excellent. There are a couple ERA's in our club and they're very high quality. One completed fairly recently that is outstanding. But his "build" started with a complete roller chassis and mounted and painted body. So very different than the Factory Five build experience and as explained a very different business model. I too am a little confused about their claim to be close to the originals yet the frame is nothing like the originals. Factory Five's is much more authentic in that regard. Having said that, while I don't expect Factory Five will change the legacy style frame of the Roadster, it is interesting that all the new models (including the re-designed Gen 3 Coupe) are computer designed space frames and no longer the 4-inch tube ladder style frames. I too priced out an ERA 289 a couple years ago. Higher price and lead time took me back to Factory Five.

CobraboyDR

02-04-2021, 11:29 PM

I've seen a few ERA cars and they do look pretty darn good; however, their frame is far from being period correct.

http://www.erareplicas.com/fia/chassis.htm

http://www.erareplicas.com/427/chassis.htm

I wonder why they went down this path if their claim to fame is being "Period Correct" which is obviously less than accurate. Both frames are superior to the original.

The forces exerted by a 2200lb. car on a frame is nothing like a 4000lb. car on a frame. The only Cobra frame that was suspect was the 3" members of the slab-side. Of course, the effects were compounded by transverse leaf spring suspensions. Keep in mind very few original Cobras were race cars.

FFR makes an excellent frame, but that does NOT mean other frames are crap...especially for their life on the street. As in any engineering endeavor, there are different tools and ways to get the job done. The fact is very, very few FFR's or ERA's or any other manufacturer will really get to stress their frames to the max, to the edge of the envelope. Ever. I am unaware of any catastrophic frame failures in either car. Bragging rights aside, the best performance engineering makes little difference on a sunny cruise to the Burger Doodle Sunday Car Show...which is the life of 90+% of Cobra replicas.

The ERA frame may not be "original," but the balance of the car and attention to detail certainly are. When you see an ERA (or SPF, or Kirkham, or CSX, or some Uniques) at a show, many think it's an actual original CSX. When someone sees a custom FFR with wild wheels, pleated interior, cup holders, bizarre day-glo paint job, and scavenged SUV engine, "original" does not come to mind. Of course, there's the minimum price differential prolly starts at $50,000.

There are more "purists" in the Cobra replica world than you think, which is one reason the resale value of FFR trends well below those repros who strive for originality: there s much higher demand for more "original" cars.

I am not disparaging anyone who builds a custom FFR. I am merely stating a fact: some manufacturers' cars retain more value. That has nothing to do with function, performance, or owner love and creativity. They both appeal to a different market. And no doubt FFR is THE 800lb. gorilla in their chosen market ("built, not bought")...as is ERA in their chosen market.

I want to build an FFR. Build, not buy. I have bought several Cobra repros; I want to build one now. And one day, when FFR offers what I want, maybe along with the help of outside vendor engineering, FFR and/or the vendor gets my cheese: IRS configured for 15" pin-drive wheels (I'd sell my mom to the Arabs for a roadster wearing a set of those Sunburst wheel repros cast by that Cobra geek dentist), and a doable, non-complex under-car exhaust system ala the original.

CDXXVII

02-05-2021, 12:02 AM

I personally would not touch an ERA. They look great and that's about it. Probably the best fiberglass bodies out there.

My two cents

Kirkham for originality through and through hands down. Performance and looks are top notch with a price tag to match.

Superformance if you just want to pay and go. Probably the best bang for the buck if instant gratification is your thing.

Factory Five if you want to build it yourself the way you want to build it. Fantastic platform with an OK body IMHO.

narly1

02-05-2021, 10:38 AM

edwardb

02-05-2021, 11:42 AM

Permit me to go off topic for just a little bit then I'll shut my trap LOL.

I'm planning on the 33 hot rod and FFR's chassis design is really the deciding factor for me.

I don't want an old-timey, twisty H-frame under my hot rod.

I want something that has that hot rod look and with handling on par with modern day cars.

If you think the Factory Five Roadster chassis is "twisty" you're mistaken. You can tell it's very stiff the minute you start driving it. Jack up the front or rear corner and the whole side lifts. Try that with your DD. Agreed the computer designed space frames are technically stiffer. But the Roadster is no slouch. Good luck with your 33 Hot Rod. :D

rich grsc

02-05-2021, 12:16 PM

If you think the Factory Five Roadster chassis is "twisty" you're mistaken. You can tell it's very stiff the minute you start driving it. Jack up the front or rear corner and the whole side lifts. Try that with your DD. Agreed the computer designed space frames are technically stiffer. But the Roadster is no slouch. Good luck with your 33 Hot Rod. :D
Think you misunderstood his comment, he was say he was going with FFR's 33 hotrod because of it's rigid frame

narly1

02-05-2021, 12:19 PM

If you think the Factory Five Roadster chassis is "twisty" you're mistaken.

Actually I was referring to the traditional H style frame commonly used under "32 & "33 rods.

And thanks for the kind words of encouragement.

Earl

RoadRacer

02-05-2021, 12:23 PM

Actually I was referring to the traditional H style frame commonly used under "32 & "33 rods.

And thanks for the kind words of encouragement.

Earl

Yes, the FFR 33 chassis is awesome - I'm totally with you in that I never wanted an H..

Gumball

02-05-2021, 12:57 PM

Both frames are superior to the original.

The forces exerted by a 2200lb. car on a frame is nothing like a 4000lb. car on a frame. The only Cobra frame that was suspect was the 3" members of the slab-side. Of course, the effects were compounded by transverse leaf spring suspensions. Keep in mind very few original Cobras were race cars.

FFR makes an excellent frame, but that does NOT mean other frames are crap...especially for their life on the street. As in any engineering endeavor, there are different tools and ways to get the job done. The fact is very, very few FFR's or ERA's or any other manufacturer will really get to stress their frames to the max, to the edge of the envelope. Ever. I am unaware of any catastrophic frame failures in either car. Bragging rights aside, the best performance engineering makes little difference on a sunny cruise to the Burger Doodle Sunday Car Show...which is the life of 90+% of Cobra replicas.

The ERA frame may not be "original," but the balance of the car and attention to detail certainly are. When you see an ERA (or SPF, or Kirkham, or CSX, or some Uniques) at a show, many think it's an actual original CSX. When someone sees a custom FFR with wild wheels, pleated interior, cup holders, bizarre day-glo paint job, and scavenged SUV engine, "original" does not come to mind. Of course, there's the minimum price differential prolly starts at $50,000.

There are more "purists" in the Cobra replica world than you think, which is one reason the resale value of FFR trends well below those repros who strive for originality: there s much higher demand for more "original" cars.

I am not disparaging anyone who builds a custom FFR. I am merely stating a fact: some manufacturers' cars retain more value. That has nothing to do with function, performance, or owner love and creativity. They both appeal to a different market. And no doubt FFR is THE 800lb. gorilla in their chosen market ("built, not bought")...as is ERA in their chosen market.

I want to build an FFR. Build, not buy. I have bought several Cobra repros; I want to build one now. And one day, when FFR offers what I want, maybe along with the help of outside vendor engineering, FFR and/or the vendor gets my cheese: IRS configured for 15" pin-drive wheels (I'd sell my mom to the Arabs for a roadster wearing a set of those Sunburst wheel repros cast by that Cobra geek dentist), and a doable, non-complex under-car exhaust system ala the original.

I gotta poke this one a bit, as it's more akin to what one would see over at Club Cobra.

Yes, there's lots of variance in FFR builds - and each and every one is an intimate reflection of the builder's vision, budget, and skills. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; but ever more important to the builder.

And, as for period correct examples using an FFR as the starting point, there are some incredible cars out there. Certainly not exact replicas, but evocative of the originals, nonetheless. I think mine can hold it's own with lots of those..... not bad for an amateur who threw together a bunch of rusty and worn out old Mustang junk while working in the rain out back of the barn.

edwardb

02-05-2021, 01:47 PM

Think you misunderstood his comment, he was say he was going with FFR's 33 hotrod because of it's rigid frame

Actually I was referring to the traditional H style frame commonly used under "32 & "33 rods.

And thanks for the kind words of encouragement.

Earl

Clearly I did. Sorry about that. Probably not the first (or last) time... :rolleyes:

David Hodgkins

02-05-2021, 02:01 PM

I gotta poke this one a bit, as it's more akin to what one would see over at Club Cobra.

Yes, there's lots of variance in FFR builds - and each and every one is an intimate reflection of the builder's vision, budget, and skills. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; but ever more important to the builder.

And, as for period correct examples using an FFR as the starting point, there are some incredible cars out there. Certainly not exact replicas, but evocative of the originals, nonetheless. I think mine can hold it's own with lots of those..... not bad for an amateur who threw together a bunch of rusty and worn out old Mustang junk while working in the rain out back of the barn.

Chris your build is an example of one of the BEST for originality I've ever seen! Your car, or an ERA? In my mind, no question. It's a B.E.A. -utiful build!

Then again I'm a bit prejudiced towards the old school pin-drive look myself!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92414&d=1535841454

:)

Lickity-Split

02-05-2021, 02:18 PM

.... not bad for an amateur who threw together a bunch of rusty and worn out old Mustang junk while working in the rain out back of the barn.

That's a beautiful roadster right there. Didn't you get some of the paint wheeled out in that blizzard, too? (hehe)

Papa

02-05-2021, 02:29 PM

Interesting discussion for sure. I hadn't, and still really don't have, an appreciation for the many different Cobra replicas out there. To me, they are all cool. What drove me to FFR was their model of relatively inexpensive build it yourself cars. Several folks in my local club have Superformance and Backdraft cars, and they are spectacular, but usually a lot more $$$ to get into. I feel that the prices of FFR cars are starting to climb as FFR sheds the junk-yard parts perception. As the original concept of a donor build is becoming more and more a memory for most builders, the image of FFR is improving in my opinion. I know there are plenty of superb examples of FFR builds based on donor cars, and don't want to slight anyone who has or will go that route. The problem is, that there are also a lot of examples of poorly done cars that tend to showcase the negative side of the donor model. That's what ultimately moved me from the buy to build side of the fence. When I was just getting serious about building one, I looked around and found plenty of finished cars that were significantly less than what I expected to spend to build one. After looking at a few, I wasn't impressed with what I saw and knew I could do better building it myself. In the end, I have exactly what FFR's business model offers. I have a car that I'm proud to say I built. It was in my budget, looks great, performs great, and gets just as much attention as any other Cobra replica.

cnutting

02-05-2021, 03:52 PM

CobraboyDR

02-05-2021, 03:53 PM

I have no concerns about the frame's strength nor the design, but the lack of the 4" Round Tubes bugs the heck me if you are claiming to be The Most Period Correct Cobra which is the furthest from the truth...Also, it's well known that my car is the furthest from them all when it comes to being "Period Correct" which is why I chose Factory Five Racing. I am not the one making the claim, ERA is. They also make clear "why" their frame is as it is. Not me.

On another note; like you, I'm A Huge Fan Of The Sunburst Style Wheels!

https://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/rocket-racing-wheels/product-line/rocket-racing-sunburst-hyper-shot-polished-wheels/part-type/wheels?fr=part-type&autoview=SKU&ibanner=SREPD5

If these wheels, from Rocket Racing, would have been available when I bought my kit I likely would have opted for the narrower Pin Drive A-Arms along with the 5-lug spindles and done a custom width rear end (3-Link) to make it all fit...They would truly have completed the look that I so desperately wanted but they didn't exist when I bought my kit and the offsets are totally wrong with the F-5 stock set up.There is a guy who makes super high-quality Sunburst wheels as in the originals out of A-356 Aircraft Quality Aluminum, then Heat-Treated (original wheels were not likely heat-treated) Shot-Blasted then machined. I have seen them. Incredible. But 6- or 6-pin only. And as were the originals, they are 15 x 7.5, so tire width is limited. You can get some good meat on them like the street roadsters, but not massive like the S/C.

Oh, and spendy: $1,100 each. He might cut a dealio on four.

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/attachments/tires-wheels/35207d1600793786-sunburst-knock-off-wheels-f8db2d05-2d7c-4c4a-89c4-d4a5cfb5b3b1.jpg

Nice shoes on one of those dreaded, terrible framed ERA street roadster (notice the gas cap) with a 470ci aluminum BBM FE block ;) :
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/attachments/tires-wheels/35219d1601006082-sunburst-knock-off-wheels-img_3062-large-.jpg

CobraboyDR

02-05-2021, 03:54 PM

I parked next to an ERA at a car show back in 2019. He had real sunburst wheels taken off of a Cobra, he was surprised I knew what they were. Spent the day talking with the owner and admiring all of the replicas on hand. Very nice looking car. I do like their 289 offerings, but happy I built mine.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113873&d=1567873796Yours is one of the most fantastic builds I've seen. Excellent!

If $$$ was no object, his car is what I'd want to build. But I want a FFR 289FIA with IRS and 15" pin-drive wheels. Shelby hisownself preferred small block cars.

Jeff Kleiner

02-05-2021, 04:20 PM

FFR and ERA:

142062

FFR and ERA and Superformance:

142063

You're welcome.

Jeff

Papa

02-05-2021, 04:34 PM

FFR and ERA:

142062

FFR and ERA and Superformance:

142063

You're welcome.

Jeff

I don't care about the oranges and bananas, but I'll take my apples like this...

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=142064&d=1612560796

GTBradley

02-06-2021, 10:12 AM

Spent some time editing that one Dave. Nice.

GTBradley

02-06-2021, 11:27 AM

I am not the one making the claim, ERA is. They also make clear "why" their frame is as it is. Not me.

There is a guy who makes super high-quality Sunburst wheels as in the originals out of A-356 Aircraft Quality Aluminum, then Heat-Treated (original wheels were not likely heat-treated) Shot-Blasted then machined. I have seen them. Incredible. But 6- or 6-pin only. And as were the originals, they are 15 x 7.5, so tire width is limited. You can get some good meat on them like the street roadsters, but not massive like the S/C.

Oh, and spendy: $1,100 each. He might cut a dealio on four.

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/attachments/tires-wheels/35207d1600793786-sunburst-knock-off-wheels-f8db2d05-2d7c-4c4a-89c4-d4a5cfb5b3b1.jpg

Nice shoes on one of those dreaded, terrible framed ERA street roadster (notice the gas cap) with a 470ci aluminum BBM FE block ;) :
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/attachments/tires-wheels/35219d1601006082-sunburst-knock-off-wheels-img_3062-large-.jpg

I just saw that CSX3278 has the same gas cap configuration. Learn something new every day. :)

F-5-R

02-06-2021, 12:54 PM

I think, but am not sure, that this is one of the cars used to make the Factory Five Molds which belonged to The Late Dick Smith.

https://youtu.be/Rsr8XBSYCws

I don't know, but I think my car (Factory Five #8,515 MK-4) kind of looks like that car.

https://youtu.be/9WEe6-wdNtA

Hummmmm, What Say You?

GoDadGo,

Yes, they used Dick Smiths CSX3035 and another original CSX3042. Dave Smith explains here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sECj3nkpDF4 (starts @ 2:33).

Love your car!

F-5-R

02-06-2021, 01:59 PM

Both frames are superior to the original.

The forces exerted by a 2200lb. car on a frame is nothing like a 4000lb. car on a frame. The only Cobra frame that was suspect was the 3" members of the slab-side. Of course, the effects were compounded by transverse leaf spring suspensions. Keep in mind very few original Cobras were race cars.

Understandably the 4,000lb car would have a different frame than a 2200lb car ;)

FFR makes an excellent frame, but that does NOT mean other frames are crap...especially for their life on the street. As in any engineering endeavor, there are different tools and ways to get the job done. The fact is very, very few FFR's or ERA's or any other manufacturer will really get to stress their frames to the max, to the edge of the envelope. Ever. I am unaware of any catastrophic frame failures in either car. Bragging rights aside, the best performance engineering makes little difference on a sunny cruise to the Burger Doodle Sunday Car Show...which is the life of 90+% of Cobra replicas.

Not saying they are "crap" at all but there is an obvious difference in the quality and attention to engineering FFR has put into their Mk4 over many others. I agree with GoDadGo in the simple fact that the lack of a 4" round tube chassis is odd when a company is striving for a "purists" take on the original design.

That said, IMO despite how the average Joe/Sunday cruiser uses their car is irrelevant. These cars are about 1 thing...performance. So a "purist"...I would imagen would put equal effort into the major elements (body, frame, engine, suspension). How many people do you know that have Ford Raptors, Jeeps, and other performance vehicles that are highway queens lol...doesn't mean the manufactures should skip out on engineering them for what they were "designed for". Again, I am not saying ERA has a bad kit at all, my whole point to this thread is to understand how anyone can claim ERA is MORE "pure"...its just simply not the case. They cant have it both ways IMO. Fact is all of them are kits not original cars, but IMO FFR ticks off most of the major boxes to pay homage to the original than ERA...regardless of someone's budget / how its put together.

The ERA frame may not be "original," but the balance of the car and attention to detail certainly are. When you see an ERA (or SPF, or Kirkham, or CSX, or some Uniques) at a show, many think it's an actual original CSX. When someone sees a custom FFR with wild wheels, pleated interior, cup holders, bizarre day-glo paint job, and scavenged SUV engine, "original" does not come to mind. Of course, there's the minimum price differential prolly starts at $50,000.

I agree, if you buy a car already dictated by the manufacture its going to be a high quality product...usually lol. But, don't discredit FFR cars that are given the same attention to detail and funding. Not everyone with a FFR car builds in that way.

There are more "purists" in the Cobra replica world than you think, which is one reason the resale value of FFR trends well below those repros who strive for originality: there s much higher demand for more "original" cars.

I have seen FFR cars cross the block at auctions and I would agree, but only if they are built in the way you described above. If they are of a "high quality" build I see no major difference in resell value.

I am not disparaging anyone who builds a custom FFR. I am merely stating a fact: some manufacturers' cars retain more value. That has nothing to do with function, performance, or owner love and creativity. They both appeal to a different market. And no doubt FFR is THE 800lb. gorilla in their chosen market ("built, not bought")...as is ERA in their chosen market.

I want to build an FFR. Build, not buy. I have bought several Cobra repros; I want to build one now. And one day, when FFR offers what I want, maybe along with the help of outside vendor engineering, FFR and/or the vendor gets my cheese: IRS configured for 15" pin-drive wheels (I'd sell my mom to the Arabs for a roadster wearing a set of those Sunburst wheel repros cast by that Cobra geek dentist), and a doable, non-complex under-car exhaust system ala the original. I hope they configure their IRS for 15" pin-drive wheels too!

F-5-R

02-06-2021, 02:03 PM

I gotta poke this one a bit, as it's more akin to what one would see over at Club Cobra.

Yes, there's lots of variance in FFR builds - and each and every one is an intimate reflection of the builder's vision, budget, and skills. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; but ever more important to the builder.

And, as for period correct examples using an FFR as the starting point, there are some incredible cars out there. Certainly not exact replicas, but evocative of the originals, nonetheless. I think mine can hold it's own with lots of those..... not bad for an amateur who threw together a bunch of rusty and worn out old Mustang junk while working in the rain out back of the barn.

Chis,
WOW! amazing build :) Do you have a build thread or YouTube channel?

CobraboyDR

02-06-2021, 03:26 PM

I hope they configure their IRS for 15" pin-drive wheels too! IRS aside, you really need to see an original CSX, ERA, FFR and maybe some others side-by-side, hood up, to fully understand.

And you need to research resale values of replicas to see where consumers rank different manufacturers in the resale market.

ERA themselves says they strive for originality "where you can see" and strive for improvement "where you cannot see." Not once, ever, does any non-Shelby approved manufacturer claim they offer a faithful 100% clone of a CSX car. I'm not even sure the Shelby continuations make that claim. Besides, the "original" frame was the weak point of the car. The FIA had a beefed-up chassis and was still a handful, and the big block cars were a disaster on the track...because of the frame's lack of stiffness (not strength, stiffness, different parameters). In fairness to Kirkham, they are the only manufacturer I'm aware of to offer a "narrow hip" 427 street roadster. Everyone else uses flair-rear s/c body.

Additionally, there are considerable differences of opinion between chassis engineers about frame design, construction, and materials used. But the basic premise is still undefeated: the number of modern Cobra repros who have had an unmolested, catastrophic frame failure on the street or track is zero. Beyond that, the rest is "my daddy can beat up your daddy" loyalty.

If you really want a serious edumacation on Cobras, spring for a copy of WORLD REGISTRY of COBRAS & GT40s. There is a 5th edition in the works. Because of that, the 4th edition can be had for under $100 (usually the new edition is $235.) Fascinating reading for Cobra history nerds (like myself) who like a deep dive on the subject.

BTW: I love the FFR frame. It's very, very well designed. But like everything else, any design is a compromise of competing needs and forces. I wish they'd have an option to weld a 3" sleeve in the 4" cross rail to accommodate undercar exhaust more easily. That is one thing I like about the ERA frame for *my* needs: their main rails make engineering undercar exhaust very easy because the frame rails are 7" wider on-center. Unique's frame is similar.

Papa

02-06-2021, 05:28 PM

I stumbled across this video that I'm sure has been posted in the forum before, but felt it was applicable to this thread, so enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHUeCkML7mY

KDubU

02-06-2021, 07:51 PM

Pssst...they are all replicas except for the original ones. Doesn’t matter which replica you like best, it’s a replica.

NC Cobra

02-07-2021, 07:27 AM

Wow, that is a beautiful car. 142156
When I ran the numbers on cost and time that was the look I wanted. What eventually made up my mind to buy rather than build was how close my eventual purchase was to that ideal build. Lots of beautiful options out there really just glad to be part of the group. 142155

first time builder

02-07-2021, 09:30 AM

The FFR body is just that a body, with no interior floors or attached wheelhouses. We all know about the aluminum panels. Is it true that ERA and SF have an attached fibreglass "tub" ?

CobraboyDR

02-07-2021, 11:50 AM

The FFR body is just that a body, with no interior floors or attached wheelhouses. We all know about the aluminum panels. Is it true that ERA and SF have an attached fibreglass "tub" ?An unstressed fiberglass "tub" is not necessarily a bad thing, just a thing, maybe a few pounds more than all-aluminum. Original Cobras had fiberglass footwells and front wheel wells, and aluminum elsewhere, as does ERA (I like the concept of fiberglass front wheelwheels and am agnostic about the footwells.) SPF has an unstressed "tub" that is bonded to the chassis and adds strength. The body is bonded to the chassis, and like FFR, the body rests on the frame (not the tub) on rubber gaskets.

I got a chance to tour the Hi-Tech plant in Port Elizabeth, SA the late 90's. They built the SPF cars and a few others at the time, Lotus & TVR. Very impressive, and this skewed my opinion toward SPF, and sealed the deal to become a dealer under Doug Reed, importer from New Orleans. Hi-Tech sold their assets in 2005 to what is now Superformance...and have gotten a LOT more expensive. SPF dropped their dealer network when Carroll Shelby sued everybody in the late 90's (I'm sure Dave Smith remembers that period), and thus ended my association as a SPF dealer. But I kept my demo sled. Now, if you want the Shelby endorsement, it'll cost you a large licensing fee which may account for much of the increased SPF price above inflation and the variation of the strength of the dollar.

Hi-Tech factory tour, just as I remember. Impressive. Clinical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ud1q48viZ4

An ERA tour is impressive, just different. It's like a nerd's fantasy garage.

A few pounds of extra weight is much more important on the track than on the street. Whether a car is 2250 or 2450 lbs, they are all way overpowered for the street driven by the clinically sane. When I stomped on my 2450lb SPF with a 525hp side-oiler FE, the last thing on my mind was "if only I was 200lbs lighter..."

first time builder

02-07-2021, 12:52 PM

Cobraboy thanks for the info. But I still prefer FFR and Built not bought. There for sure is a market for the others with some people having the $$ and not the skill to build one. I also like the idea of custom build to my choices. Such as a Chevy engine or a Coyote or even maybe Electric. I know some people will say I have the skill I just prefer the others. Thats fine this is Americia !

CobraboyDR

02-07-2021, 02:22 PM

Cobraboy thanks for the info. But I still prefer FFR and Built not bought.With the exception of CSX, SPF and Kirkham, all the other kit manufacturers let a customer "build" their kit to whatever extent the customer wants from 100% customer built to 100% turn-key bought.

FFR is the exception that they will not pre-build any part of the kit in advance. It's 100% up to the purchaser.

So, really, all those kits also may qualify for "built, not bought."

Think of this another way: If you sublet the bodywork and paint, did you build it or buy it? How about if you hired a roving builder to help when you got into the weeds: built or bought? Crate motor: built, or bought?

I don't have any problem with either, built or bought, and I admire FFR for their market niche. FFR makes an excellent product focused on its business model.

CobraboyDR

02-07-2021, 06:18 PM

CobraboyDR,

The pride of driving a car you built yourself is an amazing feeling that only comes by completing the journey.
Being smart enough to bring in help when you run out of skill and talent is wisdom at its best.

Hundreds of holes drilled, panels aligned and rivets set.
Suspension bits and pieces assembled and installed.
Brake lines bent, flared, hung, connected, and bled.
Figuring out ways to improve serviceability.
Drivelines configured and installed.
Dashboard and switches wired.
Bodywork, gapping, and paint.
Inspection and Licencing.

Testing your limits is what Built Not Bought is all about.
Until you take on the task and start the journey, you will Never truly understand what it is all about.

Steve

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8m-MdRZvaH45Y6h4orIm7w/videosSteve, does a total nut and bolt restoration of a '64 Jag XKE count as "understanding?" Granted, I did not do the paint, but DID rebuild the 4.2 engine in my garage; yeah, I had some help with the engine.

How about the total dismantling and reconstruction of a poorly built Contemporary Cobra repro?

Did I "build?" Or "buy?" Did I test my limits? Did I get that sense of satisfaction from a large project (a FFR is child's play compared to restoring an old XKE coupe, skill, and money)?

Listen, I get the experience end of it, which is why I'm here. I'm also bringing some non-FFR Cobra experience and reality to the table. Don't shoot the messenger, Tigranes... ;)

rich grsc

02-07-2021, 07:46 PM

I think you two need to go to your rooms without your supper.

bobl

02-08-2021, 01:18 AM

With the exception of CSX, SPF and Kirkham, all the other kit manufacturers let a customer "build" their kit to whatever extent the customer wants from 100% customer built to 100% turn-key bought.

FFR is the exception that they will not pre-build any part of the kit in advance. It's 100% up to the purchaser.

So, really, all those kits also may qualify for "built, not bought."

Think of this another way: If you sublet the bodywork and paint, did you build it or buy it? How about if you hired a roving builder to help when you got into the weeds: built or bought? Crate motor: built, or bought?

I don't have any problem with either, built or bought, and I admire FFR for their market niche. FFR makes an excellent product focused on its business model.

So, you are saying that you can buy an ERA, Backdraft and others in boxes and assemble in your garage just like a FFR? I was not aware of that.

CobraboyDR

02-08-2021, 08:33 AM

So, you are saying that you can buy an ERA, Backdraft and others in boxes and assemble in your garage just like a FFR? I was not aware of that.Backdraft, CSX, Kirkham and SPF, no. Not their model.

The others? ERA, Unique, Hurricane, Shell Valley, etc.? Yes. I'm not sure if Shell Valley, like FFR, will do any pre-assembly. The others will, for a price.

rich grsc

02-08-2021, 10:25 AM

All of my previous posts have been deleted by yours truly.
Was not necessary

Vnarma

02-08-2021, 01:51 PM

Pick the manufacturer/model that best suits your need.
I went with a FFR because it had a frame and suspension designed to be driven hard. I have streetable Challenge Cup car. I don't see the other manufacturer brands at track days, other than slow touring laps of the track. I have seen several other FFR driven hard at the track. FFR lack the dimensions, and some of the details WHEN placed next to a real Cobra. It only portrays the look of a Shelby Cobra. I didn't care. I have a Cobra which give me the performance and the ability to use that performance without the fear of something breaking, or not handling the load.
142272

caesarmascetti

02-09-2021, 03:34 PM

Pssst...they are all replicas except for the original ones. Doesn’t matter which replica you like best, it’s a replica.

SO true, I have a friend with an ERA, beautiful car w/428CJ dual quads he likes his "originality." Eh, for me they're all replicas except for the ones built in the mid sixties, so why not build or buy it the way you want?142359

BEAR-AvHistory

02-09-2021, 06:07 PM

To me its more assembled than built. Nobody built the chassis from tubes, nobody molded the body, nobody cut & shaped the alloy panels. FFR delivered a bunch of pre-manufactured parts that we put together like a full scale model car kit. Frankly I don't think its all that big of a deal since very few people would be unable to do it, some with a little help.

Also not an "originality" person. Its not one of the less than 1000 that Shelby sold so you have a free hand to do what pleases you. Something you can't really do with a $1,000,000 1965.

Since they are not real cars from Shelby can't see paying through the nose for a car that at the end of the day is still just a replica.

GoDadGo

02-09-2021, 06:32 PM

Backdraft, CSX, Kirkham and SPF, no. Not their model.

The others? ERA, Unique, Hurricane, Shell Valley, etc.? Yes. I'm not sure if Shell Valley, like FFR, will do any pre-assembly. The others will, for a price.

Cobraboy,

Please show us your car and specs or your build plan for your future project.

Here Is Mine:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8m-MdRZvaH45Y6h4orIm7w/videos

Complete Specs Shown Below:
1. 383 Small Block Dart 10-1 Somewhat Pump Gas Friendly Compression Ratio!
2. Eagle Internally Balanced Rotating Assembly With 6" H-Beam Rods With Floating Forged Flat Tops.
3. Dart Iron Eagle 215 CC Heads with 2.05 Intake & 1.60 Exhaust Valves.
4. Harland Sharp Roller Rockers & Other Go Fast Goodies.
5. Comp Cam Extreme Energy 288 Hydraulic Roller Tappet Cam
6. Edelbrock AVS 800 Feeding A Weiand 7530 Team-G Single Plane Manifold.
7. Schoenfeld IMCA Modified Headers & They Really, Really Fit, But Stuff Had To Move A Bit!
8. New Old Stock Corvette ZF 6-Speed Transmission With Hydraulic Clutch. (.75 and .50 Overdrives)
9. Standard Front End Set Up With Mustang Brakes & Forte’s .75” Sway Bar.
10. Standard 3 Link Moser Dana 44 (TSD 500) Rear With 3.73 Gears & Explorer Brakes.
11. Driveline moved forward 6" to clear the distributor and to accommodate the ZF Gearbox within the transmission tunnel.
12. The wheelbase has been shortened by .875" to better center the rear wheels within the wheel arches and improve pinion angle adjustment.

Graduation Link:
https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-new/customer-steve-l-graduates-his-mk4-roadster/

Sorry, but this thread is past its prime and/or expiration date plus I looked at Lone Star Classics, ERA, Shell Valley & Unique before buying my Factory Five MK-4!

Steve