408 vs 347 from Blueprint

[ggunter]

Hi Guys, I have not seen a word posted about Blueprints 408 engine. Has anyone out there put one in a MKIV, and if so how did it turn out.

[CraigS]

Not a BP, I did my own 408 w/ a stroker kit from Coast High Performance. I asked Comp Cams for a cam that could be driven at 1400 in 5th and some times wished I had gone one step wilder. OTOH that mild cam sure made it a nice powerful, torquey cruiser that I could drive around town and pull smoothly away in 3rd at 1000 rpm. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

[ggunter]

I mean cubic inches alone should give you a sizeable amount of torque over the 347. I have been kicking around the idea of getting one just to have it in case my 347 takes a dump. It's funny the price jump when you go from 408 to 427. But then I know they use new block on the 427.

[mike223]

Best to go one direction or the other.

347 (302 based) requires different headers than the 408 / 427 (351w based).

*Generally* for (relatively) equivalent money you're looking at maybe *50 extra pounds / 50 extra hp / 50 extra ftlbs tq / 50 extra cubic inches* depending on how carried away you get with the build - 302/351 - 347/393/408 - 361(+?)/427


Extra weight + torque on the 351 based or higher rev limit on 302 based - you can spend more money and throw that equation all out of whack in any way you like.

But to swap between 302 based + 351w based you're going to be changing headers too (throw some more money at it - lol).

[ggunter]

That's why Im asking, why do you say the headers won't fit? are you basing that on the older solid mount? I know the deck height is 1/2" taller on the 351 based engine, but the ball mount headers should interchange correct? When I ordered my car I asked Tony if there was any difference and he said no, do you know something different? And your right about all the numbers you put up there, not sure if it would be worth it or just buy another 347.

[mike223]

Sorry - I was thinking of the 4 into 4 headers - which are distinctly different.


If Tony said the ball mount headers are the same for both deck heights then I'm sure he knows more about that than me.

[i.e.427]

That's why Im asking, why do you say the headers won't fit? are you basing that on the older solid mount? I know the deck height is 1/2" taller on the 351 based engine, but the ball mount headers should interchange correct? When I ordered my car I asked Tony if there was any difference and he said no, do you know something different?


302 headers and 351 headers still have two distinct part numbers.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/exhaust/

[ggunter]

They do have different part numbers! Wonder what the difference is. Maybe a slight bend difference in the tubes.. I would think the ball mount would make up for that but maybe not.

[FF33rod]

Seems to make sense to me that they'd be different, assuming the exhaust system (side pipes or otherwise) is in the same position no matter the engine. This means the exhaust port location difference (higher deck on 351 vs 302) has to be accommodated for somewhere and a ball mount isn't going to do that.

[NAZ]

If you are considering an engine change and are up for the additional cost (and possible fitment challenges) to go from short deck to the taller 351W base deck height (9.5” 71 and later), then a 351 based engine has some advantages you may not have considered.



Your 347 SBF is a popular short deck 302 based stroker build that has a rod ratio of 1.588, less than ideal. That rod ratio is adding power robbing friction as the pistons are forced against the cylinder walls. That friction costs power and increases wear of the cylinders. A 351 based engine with a standard stroke of 3.500” gives you a few more cubic inches than your 347, a bit longer stroke, and a far superior rod ratio of 1.702. But a 408 CI 351 based stroker like you are interested in has a 4.00” stroke and a rod ratio of 1.531 which is even less ideal than you 347.



If I was looking at SBF strokers I’d seriously consider the short deck 331 with a 3.250” stroke or the 351 based 383 with a 3.750” stroke, both have rod ratios >1.66 and the 383 has a .350” longer stroke than your 347.



Don’t discount the effect of rod ratio. When I was developing my latest SBC engine build I first guessed I’d end up with a 434 but after running computer modeling analysis of many different bore & stroke configurations I found that I could actually make more power from the shorter stroke 406 than the longer stroke 434 because the shorter rods needed for the larger stroke were robbing exponentially more power from increased friction. Once you get a rod ratio less than 1.6 this parasitic power loss starts overcoming the CI gains. My 406 makes 1.925 HP per cubic inch and the 434 would have made 1.765 with the same configuration. The 406 average HP numbers from 5000 to 7500 RPM and the peak HP are higher than the 434 all because of rod ratio.

[CraigS]

There is another option for an inexpensive 351 based sbf, a 393. I forget the exact details but you need a stroker crank and then use 302 rods and 351 pistons or 351 rods and 302 pistons. The pistons and rods being oem made for a low cost, long lasting engine.

[CobraboyDR]

If you are considering an engine change and are up for the additional cost (and possible fitment challenges) to go from short deck to the taller 351W base deck height (9.5” 71 and later), then a 351 based engine has some advantages you may not have considered.



Your 347 SBF is a popular short deck 302 based stroker build that has a rod ratio of 1.588, less than ideal. That rod ratio is adding power robbing friction as the pistons are forced against the cylinder walls. That friction costs power and increases wear of the cylinders. A 351 based engine with a standard stroke of 3.500” gives you a few more cubic inches than your 347, a bit longer stroke, and a far superior rod ratio of 1.702. But a 408 CI 351 based stroker like you are interested in has a 4.00” stroke and a rod ratio of 1.531 which is even less ideal than you 347.



If I was looking at SBF strokers I’d seriously consider the short deck 331 with a 3.250” stroke or the 351 based 383 with a 3.750” stroke, both have rod ratios >1.66 and the 383 has a .350” longer stroke than your 347.



Don’t discount the effect of rod ratio. When I was developing my latest SBC engine build I first guessed I’d end up with a 434 but after running computer modeling analysis of many different bore & stroke configurations I found that I could actually make more power from the shorter stroke 406 than the longer stroke 434 because the shorter rods needed for the larger stroke were robbing exponentially more power from increased friction. Once you get a rod ratio less than 1.6 this parasitic power loss starts overcoming the CI gains. My 406 makes 1.925 HP per cubic inch and the 434 would have made 1.765 with the same configuration. The 406 average HP numbers from 5000 to 7500 RPM and the peak HP are higher than the 434 all because of rod ratio.For a street car that lives its life well down the RPM range, is the parasitic drag of non-ideal rod ratios less a concern than the torque that is inherent in larger displacement engines, regardless of rod ratio?

I would agree that a 331 is a better choice for a car running at higher RPMs for power, such as race applications for the reasons you correctly cite.

[NAZ]

Friction increases with speed but even at slow speed city driving a short rod ratio is creating more friction than a longer rod. Friction = increased wear, more heat, less power, decreased efficiency.

Everything about an engine is a tradeoff so if you want the longer crank, at some point you will have to accept a worse rod ratio and more cylinder wear. So how short is too short?

Rod ratio is something that you should consider when thinking about building and modifying engines. Many can't see past the cubic inches or the long stroke that they believe will give them that tractor like low speed torque. The short rod ratios do have some advantages and for inline engines the negatives of short rods can be mitigated with offset bores. That's not an option with our old school American V-8 engines we love.

[GoDadGo]

Everything about an engine is a tradeoff so if you want the longer crank, at some point you will have to accept a worse rod ratio and more cylinder wear.
So how short is too short?
Rod ratio is something that you should consider when thinking about building and modifying engines.

This is the exact reason why I went with a 6.0" rod in my 3.75" stroke 383 Mighty Mouse because I was able to keep a fairly decent Rod Angle Ratio of 1.60.
To put this into perspective a stock 350 SBC has a R.A.R. of 1.638 with a stock 5.7" rod.
The higher winding 302 SBC is way up there with a 1.90 R.A.R.
Lack of friction is important, but dwell time at T.D.C. is too.

[mike223]

There is another option for an inexpensive 351 based sbf, a 393. I forget the exact details but you need a stroker crank and then use 302 rods and 351 pistons or 351 rods and 302 pistons. The pistons and rods being oem made for a low cost, long lasting engine.

The common 393W is 351w rods (5.956") + 302 pistons + 3.85" stroke crank.

I can't imagine how 302 rods (5.090") would work with 351 pistons - I've never heard of that being done.

A 6.2" rod with the 3.85" stroke crank gives a significantly better rod ratio, but piston choices start getting thin.


A critical consideration in stroker engines is piston choice.

You've got to have a piston with the right deck height so the increased stroke + whatever rod length you're running put the piston in a satisfactory position at the top + bottom of stroke.

You also have to know the size of the combustion chamber on your heads so you can figure compression ratio.


Typically you need quite a bit of dish on a stroker piston or you get sky high compression ratios due to the increased stroke - dish pistons or bigger combustion chambers are your choices (or diesel - lol).


Stroker kits have all this figured out in advance - you have to proceed with a great deal of caution if you're trying to pick out random OEM parts.


Here's a pretty good reference article on the Ford stuff: https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2003/09/stroker/

Handy compression calculator: https://www.summitracing.com/newsandevents/calcsandtools/compression-calculator


Bear in mind .020" in head gasket thickness changes the compression ratio on my 393W by .5 ~ 10.1:1 vs 10.6:1

[emoore924]

I have a Blueprint 408 stroker in my MKIV, iron heads, really no cam. I'm very happy with it. It dynoed at 345/430 hp/tq. Probably 4k miles now. A super-built Tremec t5 runs behind it. The combo is very, very good. Plenty of grunt and controlability. In fact there are few cars that can keep up. It does not howl like a smaller-displacement small block might, but I'm happy with a gear change at 5500. That's plenty for me. Much more than that and its hard to get the power to the ground. I run the 555's in 315 on the rear, which made a huge difference (the sumitomos were a waste of time, did nothing but turned gasoline into smoke...)

Recommended.

[ggunter]

Thanks emoore, I'm still kicking this around. I always liked the 351 windsor platform just because of the beefier crank and block. I had a pair of them on a boat and ran the snot out of them and they never broke. The thing I don't like about my 347 is piston noise. I just hear more engine nosie in general I'm assuming from short skirt pistons rocking. I haven't seen what pistons Blueprint usses on these engines. I know they sell a ton of the 347's so they must have done something right on them.

[GoDadGo]

The 385 Series Big Block Ford stands for the Stroke of the 460 Ford so these combinations could be created with little difficulty using that stroke in a Windsor style block.

Here's an oddball option that would be created using a Dart or Ford Racing block with a 4.125 bore:

4.125 Bore + 3.850 Stroke X 8 Cylinders = 411.61 CID

It is the same stroke used to create the 392/393 Strokers that are very much loved by the folks using stock blocks with a .030" overbore.

4.030 Bore + 3.850 Stroke X 8 Cylinders = 392.87 CID

[Avalanche325]

Someone like NAZ excepted.....

What you want is a known good combination. The research and testing has already been done for you. Don't get caught up in rod angles, journal sizes, oil ring / wrist pin position, etc. It's already been engineered for you. Early strokers were mix and match existing parts. Now days, there are bespoke parts engineered for the job.

I would start with deciding what you are going to use the car for. Let that drive how much HP vs steerability you want. Let that determine the engine size. Personally the only reason to go bigger than a 347 is if you want 450+HP and don't want a snotty and very loud engine. I would go straight to 427. I have a 500HP 347 which is great for autocross and track days (light weight), but it is snotty and loud as far as streetable goes. Blueprint seems to stay in the mild to mid HP per CI range.

[GoDadGo]

I have a 500HP 347 which is great for autocross and track days (light weight), but it is snotty and loud as far as streetable goes. Blueprint seems to stay in the mild to mid HP per CI range.

Nothing Wrong With A Snotty Small-Block!

https://youtu.be/buWIbGEd-lc

[NAZ]

We love snotty. Doesn't everyone want a snotty sounding engine? If you wanted quiet, smooth, no drama, no NVH you'd buy a Mercedes. But there's nothing like the sound of unfettered pure visceral American V-8 power -- it's sexy and frightening and even gets the dorky guys a date on Friday night at the local cruise. It ain't a hot rod if it's not loud and in your face and you come home reeking of gas and exhaust fumes. I love the smell of race gas in the morning. It smells like victory.

[Avalanche325]

My wife doesn't like it so much. But here's mine on a slow slippery autocross course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXGuyCvtmRE&ab_channel=ChrisSmalley

[GoDadGo]

I hear you loud and clear:

https://youtu.be/PCngiKoopkA

[NAZ]

Now this is the sound we all love. That thing sounds nastier than mine even with open exhaust. Mine is just plan loud, yours has a growl that says it's tough as nails no compromise power. I could listen to that all day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXGuyCvtmRE&ab_channel=ChrisSmalley[/QUOTE]

[Papa]

My wife doesn't like it so much. But here's mine on a slow slippery autocross course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXGuyCvtmRE&ab_channel=ChrisSmalley

Dang that sounds like a beast! In contrast, here is what my BPE 347 with Sniper EFI and Gas-N pipes sounds like. Just listen to the first minute of the video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay8SRyLU6cY

[rich grsc]

141637
Yep, my 331 is loud and obnoxious. You better have hearing protection, cause above 4000 rpm your ears will bleed.:rolleyes:

[Jeff Kleiner]

141637
Yep, my 331 is loud and obnoxious....

Best sounding car I’ve had in my shop. Ever! :)

Jeff

[Papa]

Best sounding car I’ve had in my shop. Ever! :)

Jeff

Oh come on, Jeff. Mine sounded "nasty" when it was loping on 3 or 4 cylinders!

[Jeff Kleiner]

Oh come on, Jeff. Mine sounded "nasty" when it was loping on 3 or 4 cylinders!

Not to mention made everyone within 100 yards eyes water!

Jeff

[rich grsc]

Jeff, you're making me blush.

[Bob-STL]

Just listen to the first minute of the video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay8SRyLU6cY

That still honks!

[CraigS]

The point of doing 408 vs 427 is 408 can be done w/ a stick block. 427 needs a Dart or similar.

[rich grsc]

Well I would never want a block made out of a stick. :rolleyes: :p

[TMartinLVNV]

Well I would never want a block made out of a stick. :rolleyes: :p

Rich, I hear bamboo is going to be the next big thing in engine blocks :p

With all this talk about the horrible rod ratio of my 347 I'm afraid to go and start my engine now. I wonder if it will last until 10,000 miles?

[rich grsc]

Rich, I hear bamboo is going to be the next big thing in engine blocks :p

With all this talk about the horrible rod ratio of my 347 I'm afraid to go and start my engine now. I wonder if it will last until 10,000 miles?

Sure it will, it's a good engine, just never keep up with a 331.:p

[bobl]

Here's a short run with my puny 500+HP 347. 2nd gear roll to 120ish in 4th. 6500 rpm shift points. That stack injection sure does have some throttle response!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMDmiItny9w

Bob

[GoDadGo]

Here's a short run with my puny 500+HP 347. 2nd gear roll to 120ish in 4th. 6500 rpm shift points. That stack injection sure does have some throttle response!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMDmiItny9w

Bob

Filmed In Mexico!

[emoore924]

I should have mentioned that I always wear earplugs. Good ones.

[CraigS]

Rich and TMartin, thanks for my AM chuckle. I am such a pi$$ poor typer that I try to ALWAYS proof read before I hit the 'Post' button but I sure missed that one.

[ggunter]

Love that sound!!!!!

[BeePea]

If I can hijack this thread slightly... I was looking at the Dart 363, will this need different headers than the 347? I know the mounts should be the same.

[Papa]

If I can hijack this thread slightly... I was looking at the Dart 363, will this need different headers than the 347? I know the mounts should be the same.

Headers are "sized" based on the block, 302 vs 351. Other factors are the heads and what flange the headers need; angled plugs, 2" or 3" header bolt spacing. My heads are similar to the Ford Z heads and have a specific flange. My advice is to settle on the engine and then shop for headers.

Edit: I believe that the new FFR headers are able to support many combinations, so check with FFR before venturing out on other options. BTW, my heads have holes for either 2" or 3" bolt spacing. I felt like it was easier to get the bolts into the 3" pattern as the 2" can restrict the access to the bolt head, and in some cases may require tool modifications.

Dave

[bobl]

302 headers from FFR have 1 5/8 tubes, 351 headers have 1 3/4 tubes. I don't know about fitment of the new headers between the 2 engines. I just finished dyno testing a 347 that made 440 HP with the 1 3/4 headers. I swapped to a set of 1 5/8 and lost 10 HP across the board. I thought I would see maybe an increase in torque down low, but it didn't happen. An engine with more hp would see a bigger loss. So, for the 363 or anything over 400 HP I'd search for headers with 1 3/4 primary tubes.

Bob

[D Stand]

I have the “Z” heads and they call out a “raised exhaust port”. When I called ff5 they told me that their headers only work on stock heads. George over at gas-n is building me a set that will work. So if the dart block and heads all specify that they are stock dimensions then the ff5 headers should work.

[Snakeskin347]

Nothing Wrong With A Snotty Small-Block!

https://youtu.be/buWIbGEd-lc

Haha! I love the "Snotty and Loud" comment! I decided to build a 347 to save a considerable amount of money over a 427. No regrets so far as I couldn't imagine any more for what I do with it! We are guessing 430-450HP. I just had to have custom side badges made so I wasn't preaching anything that I didn't have under the hood! LOL!

142642

[ggunter]

I like the badges Snake skin where did you get them

[Snakeskin347]

I like the badges Snake skin where did you get them

Billet Badges, I believe that they are California based. They cost pretty penny but totally worth it. Whoever wants them from here on in doesn't have to pay the design fee as the own it and have it on file. I paid $400 Can. so they should be around $250 American.

[Big Blocker]

THIS is what an engine should sound like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF8An64G2eo

. . . Nothing in the world sounds like a Big Block.

You can't make a 351 punched out to 427 sound like this, no matter what you do.

Doc

[Snakeskin347]

THIS is what an engine should sound like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF8An64G2eo

. . . Nothing in the world sounds like a Big Block.

You can't make a 351 punched out to 427 sound like this, no matter what you do.

Doc

I beg to differ there Big Blocker, I'd say that my little 305 punched out to a 347 sound pretty sweet! Crank your volume up! ;)

https://youtu.be/t6VGZ242fH4

[ggunter]

Very Nice , just snotty enough!!

[ggunter]

Thanks for the Billet Badge info. I like them and will order a set for mine.

[NAZ]

They sound good but man those cars are quiet -- my fuel pump makes more noise than that.:)

[Snakeskin347]

They sound good but man those cars are quiet -- my fuel pump makes more noise than that.:)

Oh man! I was checking your album and that is sweet! Do you have a video of it making a pass?

[rich grsc]

They sound good but man those cars are quiet -- my fuel pump makes more noise than that.:)
I know right. If you can converse, it isn't loud and snotty.:rolleyes:

[Snakeskin347]

Thanks for the Billet Badge info. I like them and will order a set for mine.

Make sure that you get the ceramic coating option, they look like jewelry and have an almost mirror like finish. I think it was a $40 option but well worth it in my opinion.

[BluePrintEngines]

Hey guys,

Sorry for being late to the game on this one. We do really push customers to our pre-done combo's on factoryfiveengines.com. The reason there is no 408 listed, is because by the time we do up a 408 into a complete "engine/trans" package, its very close in price our Aftermarket block, 427 W based engines. at that point, if you're buying a 351 deck'd engine, most just end up rolling with the 427, and quite frankly, not sure why you wouldn't. Many did note, the headers do change from 347 to 427 W (302 vs 351)

as far as the longevity of the BluePrint 347's we do our best to to dispel what I consider "wives tales" where a certain bore vs stroke is blanket statement'd as problematic. We're a facility producing 50-75 engines a day, and covering all of them with a 30 month warranty, and dynoing them all. You simply can't apply the shortcomings of aftermarket parts suppliers from the 70's and 80's to our modern practices, parts designing, engineering, R&D, etc. A BluePrint Engine is actually designed from the ground up by us. We work directly with our manufactures, or suppliers to design the parts we want to use. In this case...a piston design that combats the issues being referenced.

the 347 package is really the best "bang for your buck" in price, HP, etc. the 427 is a beast, for those that want to make that jump.

Any questions on our offerings from https://factoryfiveengines.com/ give us a ring! or shoot us an email! I think we're beyond 400 engine/trans packages that we have sold directly to FFR customers. Lots of R&D, testing, fitment checking, to save you guys time, and make it easy!!

happy to help any time.

[NAZ]

Oh man! I was checking your album and that is sweet! Do you have a video of it making a pass?

Only stills but wish I had some videos of this car. I live in the sticks and my "high speed" internet is ~1Mbps upload speed on a good day and 5.5 Mbps download so I can't upload videos to YouTube. Of course they're not embarrassed to charge me for 45Mbps.

[CaptB]

Hey guys,

Sorry for being late to the game on this one. We do really push customers to our pre-done combo's on factoryfiveengines.com. The reason there is no 408 listed, is because by the time we do up a 408 into a complete "engine/trans" package, its very close in price our Aftermarket block, 427 W based engines. at that point, if you're buying a 351 deck'd engine, most just end up rolling with the 427, and quite frankly, not sure why you wouldn't. Many did note, the headers do change from 347 to 427 W (302 vs 351)

as far as the longevity of the BluePrint 347's we do our best to to dispel what I consider "wives tales" where a certain bore vs stroke is blanket statement'd as problematic. We're a facility producing 50-75 engines a day, and covering all of them with a 30 month warranty, and dynoing them all. You simply can't apply the shortcomings of aftermarket parts suppliers from the 70's and 80's to our modern practices, parts designing, engineering, R&D, etc. A BluePrint Engine is actually designed from the ground up by us. We work directly with our manufactures, or suppliers to design the parts we want to use. In this case...a piston design that combats the issues being referenced.

the 347 package is really the best "bang for your buck" in price, HP, etc. the 427 is a beast, for those that want to make that jump.

Any questions on our offerings from https://factoryfiveengines.com/ give us a ring! or shoot us an email! I think we're beyond 400 engine/trans packages that we have sold directly to FFR customers. Lots of R&D, testing, fitment checking, to save you guys time, and make it easy!!

happy to help any time.

Great comment. I'm waiting for my 347 to arrive!!

[ggunter]

Snake Skin, I contacted Billet Badges about your emblem and here is what I got back this morning.
"Unfortunately, we cannot produce your emblems as requested. Our licensing agreement with Ford has recently been cancelled and we can no longer produce any emblems that display their licensed trademarks without their written consent.
If you would like to try to get permission from Ford Motor Company to have your design produced, you can reach out to them directly. You will need to tell them about your project and explain your badge would be a single use car badge. You can find their contact information in the following link:"

Oh well, I thought it is a cool emblem.

[Snakeskin347]

Snake Skin, I contacted Billet Badges about your emblem and here is what I got back this morning.
"Unfortunately, we cannot produce your emblems as requested. Our licensing agreement with Ford has recently been cancelled and we can no longer produce any emblems that display their licensed trademarks without their written consent.
If you would like to try to get permission from Ford Motor Company to have your design produced, you can reach out to them directly. You will need to tell them about your project and explain your badge would be a single use car badge. You can find their contact information in the following link:"

Oh well, I thought it is a cool emblem.

What the heck!? Is the red and blue stripe a licensed trademark? Just ask them to make the emblem with no paint and fill it in yourself. With no colors I don't see anything that pertains to Ford.

[ggunter]

It seems the word Cobra is trade marked by Ford. Thats why FFR says nothing about a Cobra anywhere. It's a MKIV Roadster. They had a nine year legal battle with Carol Shelby and Ford over the word Cobra.

[CaptB]

Great comment. I'm waiting for my 347 to arrive!!

Me too! Supposed to be late March or early April.

[CobraboyDR]

Hey guys,

Sorry for being late to the game on this one. We do really push customers to our pre-done combo's on factoryfiveengines.com. The reason there is no 408 listed, is because by the time we do up a 408 into a complete "engine/trans" package, its very close in price our Aftermarket block, 427 W based engines. at that point, if you're buying a 351 deck'd engine, most just end up rolling with the 427, and quite frankly, not sure why you wouldn't. Many did note, the headers do change from 347 to 427 W (302 vs 351)

as far as the longevity of the BluePrint 347's we do our best to to dispel what I consider "wives tales" where a certain bore vs stroke is blanket statement'd as problematic. We're a facility producing 50-75 engines a day, and covering all of them with a 30 month warranty, and dynoing them all. You simply can't apply the shortcomings of aftermarket parts suppliers from the 70's and 80's to our modern practices, parts designing, engineering, R&D, etc. A BluePrint Engine is actually designed from the ground up by us. We work directly with our manufactures, or suppliers to design the parts we want to use. In this case...a piston design that combats the issues being referenced.

the 347 package is really the best "bang for your buck" in price, HP, etc. the 427 is a beast, for those that want to make that jump.

Any questions on our offerings from https://factoryfiveengines.com/ give us a ring! or shoot us an email! I think we're beyond 400 engine/trans packages that we have sold directly to FFR customers. Lots of R&D, testing, fitment checking, to save you guys time, and make it easy!!

happy to help any time.Thanks for the professional input. A poster linked to a Blue Print Engine Factory tour on youtube which I found quite impressive. BPE is on the top of my list for a SBF (or SBC, if I do a Corvette restoration) motor.

There have been some excellent discussions by knowledgeable, experienced posters on the engineering parameter and esoteria of rod ratio vs. excess friction & power losses vs. longevity of stroker motors, specifically 302-306-331 vs. 347, and much backed by science and experience. But science changes engineering and engineering can dispel "Wives Tales", otherwise man and bumblebees could not fly.

You mentioned BPE backs these performance motors with excellent warranties, so you guys are putting your money where your mouth is, for which you are applauded. And, yes, that is a credibility-builder. I assume you guys have figured it out.

I am curious though, and hope you can give us wanting to learn some better engineering insight: what exactly has BPE done to reduce or eliminate the excess wear, skirt loading, blow-by, and parasitic friction power losses that increase as rod ratio drops below certain "ideal" parameters (most claim 1.55) that in the past have caused problems, specifically in a 347 stroker motor? Or is the whole discussion blown out of proportion?

[NAZ]

Thanks for the professional input. A poster linked to a Blue Print Engine Factory tour on youtube which I found quite impressive. BPE is on the top of my list for a SBF (or SBC, if I do a Corvette restoration) motor.

There have been some excellent discussions by knowledgeable, experienced posters on the engineering parameter and esoteria of rod ratio vs. excess friction & power losses vs. longevity of stroker motors, specifically 302-306-331 vs. 347, and much backed by science and experience. But science changes engineering and engineering can dispel "Wives Tales", otherwise man and bumblebees could not fly.

You mentioned BPE backs these performance motors with excellent warranties, so you guys are putting your money where your mouth is, for which you are applauded. And, yes, that is a credibility-builder. I assume you guys have figured it out.

I am curious though, and hope you can give us wanting to learn some better engineering insight: what exactly has BPE done to reduce or eliminate the excess wear, skirt loading, blow-by, and parasitic friction power losses that increase as rod ratio drops below certain "ideal" parameters (most claim 1.55) that in the past have caused problems, specifically in a 347 stroker motor? Or is the whole discussion blown out of proportion?

Fair question from a prospective customer.

[caesarmascetti]

I have had a 347 stroker for nearly 11,000 miles in my car runs great. No issues with the motor AFR 185 head 10:1 compression, COMP cam, really pulls hard. I was looking for a little more so I ordered a 363 stroker (Craft Performance aka: Keith Craft) should easily exceed 500hp on the dyno. The best part it uses all the ancillary pieces from the 347, it is based on 302 (short deck Windsor, DART block)

[Snakeskin347]

I have had a 347 stroker for nearly 11,000 miles in my car runs great. No issues with the motor AFR 185 head 10:1 compression, COMP cam, really pulls hard. I was looking for a little more so I ordered a 363 stroker (Craft Performance aka: Keith Craft) should easily exceed 500hp on the dyno. The best part it uses all the ancillary pieces from the 347, it is based on 302 (short deck Windsor, DART block)

I'm glad to hear a positive response on these 347's, I just spent $10,000 on a custom build and was starting to worry...kind of. When I bought my car the brand new 347 gave up the ghost at 800 miles but that was due to the shop that apparently knew how to build engines. I wish it just happened before I bought the car.... We saved about $5000 in usable parts she is now running like it should of!

[Big Blocker]

Snakeskin347,

Quote: "I'd say that my little 305 punched out to a 347 sound pretty sweet!". I absolutely agree, it sounds really sweet. Kinda sounds just like my [base] 302 powered car . . .

BUT, it don't sound like the sample I supplied - which IS a BIG BLOCK. Load up both YouTube videos side by side and give a listen, you'll understand what I'm talkin' bout.
There is just something about a BIG BLOCK sound, lower toned, with more of a "rumble" that speaks to the heart of any engine guy.

It's kinda like the old "Pepsi / Coke" comparison, side by side 351 punched out to 427 with identical cam timing and identical exhaust sitting right next to a FE 427 built with matching cam timing and identical exhaust - with a blindfold on, you'll know which one is the BIG BLOCK right away.

I built my own exhaust system for my 5.0, striving for that identical sound . . . got pretty close but not quite there. I've been asked many time (in her 18 years on the road) if I was running a BIG BLOCK. I'd just grin and leave it up to their imagination.

Doc

[BluePrintEngines]

Thanks for the professional input. A poster linked to a Blue Print Engine Factory tour on youtube which I found quite impressive. BPE is on the top of my list for a SBF (or SBC, if I do a Corvette restoration) motor.

There have been some excellent discussions by knowledgeable, experienced posters on the engineering parameter and esoteria of rod ratio vs. excess friction & power losses vs. longevity of stroker motors, specifically 302-306-331 vs. 347, and much backed by science and experience. But science changes engineering and engineering can dispel "Wives Tales", otherwise man and bumblebees could not fly.

You mentioned BPE backs these performance motors with excellent warranties, so you guys are putting your money where your mouth is, for which you are applauded. And, yes, that is a credibility-builder. I assume you guys have figured it out.

I am curious though, and hope you can give us wanting to learn some better engineering insight: what exactly has BPE done to reduce or eliminate the excess wear, skirt loading, blow-by, and parasitic friction power losses that increase as rod ratio drops below certain "ideal" parameters (most claim 1.55) that in the past have caused problems, specifically in a 347 stroker motor? Or is the whole discussion blown out of proportion?

Good Morning! I do think these things get blown out of proportion. Certain CID's or combo's seem to get followed around by the curses of the 70's and 80's. We could design a brand new engine from scratch, with XYZ bore/stroke combo, but if it carries the same CID as an engine from the past that people grew to know as problematic (Chevy 400, SBF 347 etc) then sometimes those old wives tales re-circulate.

some quick info, on our 347 we actually designed a piston from scratch, and moved the axis on the piston skirt to combat rock, slap, scoring, etc. We sometimes get questioned what "brand" parts we use, and in many cases, it's literally BluePrint Designed and produced. Just like our long stroke pistons :)

[caesarmascetti]

I have a 363 stroker on order. IMO the best of all worlds compact, uses all the same ancillary parts as my current 347 and makes big block levels of power. Yes, it's more expensive because of the DART block, but in theory it should also be more durable. FWIW I wave over 10,000miles on my 347 and never an issue. I just wanted more power

[GoDadGo]

I have a 363 stroker on order. IMO the best of all worlds compact, uses all the same ancillary parts as my current 347 and makes big block levels of power. Yes, it's more expensive because of the DART block, but in theory it should also be more durable. FWIW I wave over 10,000miles on my 347 and never an issue. I just wanted more power


The Blue Print 347 uses a 5.40" Rod with a 3.40" stroke so that equates to a 1.59 Rod Angle Ratio.
Ford Racing uses the same length rods in their 363.
Blue Print's 408 has a R.A.R. of 1.55.

[Duke]

Motor trend, engine masters. Season 2, episode 28. They took a Blueprint 408 short block and tried a few different heads on it. It's worth a watch. I think it ended up with low 500 ftlbs of torque with basic AFR heads. Frieburger ended up putting that motor in his 69 fastback mustang.

https://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/cylinder-head-gameshow-big-is-too-big/35038/

[CW_MI]

They sound good but man those cars are quiet -- my fuel pump makes more noise than that.:)

All those cars sound good, but when I hear the term "snotty sounding" or , and I hate this new term "chopping" I think of how my old boat engine sounded. It was a low compression 540 with a .715 lift , LSA 112 solid roller. That had a pretty snotty idle.

[J R Jones]

One listens to what one broadcasts. I enjoy a good idle and it does not ruin my hearing. Back in the day I raced SCCA club and Trans Am with a Shelby GT350, 289, 302, Boss 302 and Boss 351. Much later I teamed on a GT40 MKIV 427SO with basket of snakes exhaust, and that was unique.
Race car "Idles" were ubiquitous but it was the Mazda RX7 rotary that was so annoying they had to wear a slip on muffler in the paddock.
Race noise was somewhat attenuated by the helmet and ear plugs, but ear ringing post-race was routine. A sound memory is the distinctiveness of engines. I did race with SBF Cobras but never a BBF Cobra, they were too precious to race. BBC Corvettes were numerous and on the occasion of one passing at speed it was notable. Mind you, under those circumstances my SBF was pulling 7000RPM and the BBC 6000RPM. It sounded/felt like the Corvette was beating the side of my car with a baseball bat.
BTW NAZ lost most of his vehicles and infrastructure in an Arizona wild fire a couple of years ago. His talent is devoted to rebuilding that. His racing has been limited to desert vehicles.
jim

[CW_MI]

One listens to what one broadcasts. I enjoy a good idle and it does not ruin my hearing. Back in the day I raced SCCA club and Trans Am with a Shelby GT350, 289, 302, Boss 302 and Boss 351. Much later I teamed on a GT40 MKIV 427SO with basket of snakes exhaust, and that was unique.
Race car "Idles" were ubiquitous but it was the Mazda RX7 rotary that was so annoying they had to wear a slip on muffler in the paddock.
Race noise was somewhat attenuated by the helmet and ear plugs, but ear ringing post-race was routine. A sound memory is the distinctiveness of engines. I did race with SBF Cobras but never a BBF Cobra, they were too precious to race. BBC Corvettes were numerous and on the occasion of one passing at speed it was notable. Mind you, under those circumstances my SBF was pulling 7000RPM and the BBC 6000RPM. It sounded/felt like the Corvette was beating the side of my car with a baseball bat.
BTW NAZ lost most of his vehicles and infrastructure in an Arizona wild fire a couple of years ago. His talent is devoted to rebuilding that. His racing has been limited to desert vehicles.
jim

I was watching the World Cup Finals (Drag Racing) earlier in the year , and one of the teams had a 1800hp rotary motor...and yes, not a thing about that sounded good.

I think this road racing Challenger is perfection in the sound department.
https://youtu.be/TMGLhhrGYTw?si=GeMhcyyHc1Fimnzr

For my build, I'm more interested in reliability, and drivability, but want something that sounds like a race car. Not sure I can pull that off though.

[Mike.Bray]

For my build, I'm more interested in reliability, and drivability, but want something that sounds like a race car. Not sure I can pull that off though.

That's what modern EFI systems give you. My Windsor starts, idles like a stocker (sort of), and drives very smoothly. But wakes up when you step on the loud pedal.


https://youtu.be/Q_5fTdGFakQ

[CW_MI]

That's what modern EFI systems give you. My Windsor starts, idles like a stocker (sort of), and drives very smoothly. But wakes up when you step on the loud pedal.


https://youtu.be/Q_5fTdGFakQ

That sounds great, and those stacks....but , and I don't know why...maybe the old race car/boat boat person in me, just wants something much more aggressive sounding. I'd love nothing more than to do a high compression motor, with a big solid roller, and a Liberty's gears face plated transmission ....then that totally defeats the purpose of building this car, something for the wife and I to cruise around in. The struggle is real.

[Mike.Bray]

That sounds great, and those stacks....but , and I don't know why...maybe the old race car/boat boat person in me, just wants something much more aggressive sounding. I'd love nothing more than to do a high compression motor, with a big solid roller, and a Liberty's gears face plated transmission ....then that totally defeats the purpose of building this car, something for the wife and I to cruise around in. The struggle is real.

I redid my engine a few months ago, long sad story, and changed the heads out which upped the compression and changed the "rumpity rump" some as well as the power level lol I really love my engine now, nice throaty sound with a lopey idle but still streetable. Here's some more information on cams and idle if you haven't see it. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?50972-Engine-engine-engine&p=577306&viewfull=1#post577306

[CW_MI]

I redid my engine a few months ago, long sad story, and changed the heads out which upped the compression and changed the "rumpity rump" some as well as the power level lol I really love my engine now, nice throaty sound with a lopey idle but still streetable. Here's some more information on cams and idle if you haven't see it. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?50972-Engine-engine-engine&p=577306&viewfull=1#post577306

Yes, I saw that info on cams and idle. Great information. All my engine building experience in the past was about one thing, making power, at all costs. I had a huge solid roller cam which required dry exhaust in a pleasure boat. Checking valve springs, and doing valve lash every other weekend was normal for me, at that time. Then drag cars before that. So, now sourcing a motor (It's been too long since I assembled one) that isn't just about making power but involves other things like drivability and realibity is tough.

In reality though, I know what the right thing to do is, and I'd be perfectly happy with it. But it's fun to talk...bench racing...people don't do enough of it anymore it seems.
I sold the wife on this project, that it will a fun car that we can get in and cruise around, take to dinner etc. , if I turn it into another high maintenance, working on it more than driving it vehicle....she isn't going to be happy.

[Mike.Bray]

You definitely want a hyd roller cam and a decent EFI system. Sniper is okay, but for not a lot more you can get so much better like the Edelbrock Pro Flo IV with sequential port injection.

[CW_MI]

You definitely want a hyd roller cam and a decent EFI system. Sniper is okay, but for not a lot more you can get so much better like the Edelbrock Pro Flo IV with sequential port injection.

I completely agree. I'm probably going to go with a 408W, multiport injected, with a Terminator X setup, from Prestige.

[Mike.Bray]

I completely agree. I'm probably going to go with a 408W, multiport injected, with a Terminator X setup, from Prestige.

That is a very very good combination and Prestige is a really great engine company. I've never bought from them but I have talked to them a few times. Very impressive how I'm not a customer but they're still willing to help. And they build some sweet engines, more custom and hand built than like Blueprint who do huge volume. Nothing wrong with Blueprint, just different business models.

You'll love the Terminator X. I'm planning on replacing my Fast Sportsman with the Terminator X, I've got it and it's all set up and ready to go. Just not sure of the timing yet as the car has been running well with the Sportsman. The Terminator has a lot of nice features though, it's about 15 year newer technology than the Fast stuff so it's a nice upgrade.

[J R Jones]

I was watching the World Cup Finals (Drag Racing) earlier in the year , and one of the teams had a 1800hp rotary motor...and yes, not a thing about that sounded good.

I think this road racing Challenger is perfection in the sound department.
https://youtu.be/TMGLhhrGYTw?si=GeMhcyyHc1Fimnzr

For my build, I'm more interested in reliability, and drivability, but want something that sounds like a race car. Not sure I can pull that off though.

I had a hotted-up RX7 street car with Racing Beat exhaust that was pleasant, I felt it sounded like titanium bees.

My Shelby race car is lost in CA, I cannot find it. My Shelby street car was turned into a vintage race car that represents my race car exhaust with the 289/302: https://youtu.be/Of3sTWzMLFY
Same car at speed: https://youtu.be/hHyy0B1uu18
Videos from the second BaT auction. Unfortunately this car was totaled at Sebring and the parts are lost in VA.
jim

[OSU Cowboy]

When I ordered my MK3.1 from FFR in 2008, I got the 351 headers from them as I went into the project thinking about a 351-based 408. Later on, my nephew approached me about buying a 347 from him that he built. He is a gear heads gear head, and I trusted him completely. Plus, I got it for less than half the price of what a crate motor would have cost. He was an amateur drag racer, and had tons of upgrades in the motor. Point of all this being, I used those 351 headers from FFR on this 347 and it worked just fine. They are a bit longer than the 320 headers to account for the taller deck. I do have some Breeze wedges between the headers and the side pipes, but those are all more for alignment to the body. No real issues with now 25K miles on the car aside from having to have the Holley 750 CFM carb on it rebuilt as it started leaking gas.

[Takis31gk]

I think the 347 will be more than adequate for your car. We have used Blueprint engines for our customers cars, and really like their quality and performance. I think having the 302-based motor will be easier in the long run on maintenance and upkeep. You get all the power and performance needed, and not the added weight. Also depends on what you're doing with the car, ie. cruiser, street/track, track car. The 415 HP/TQ is more than enough to have fun. https://factoryfiveengines.com/ford-347-c-i-carbureted/

[MaxVmo]

According to the dyno sheets provided to me by Blueprint Engines, my 347 rated 420.3 HP with 427.3 torque, max RPM tested was 5900.

[TBull]

Sure it will, it's a good engine, just never keep up with a 331.:p

Mine will Rich!

[Ronc116]

Just got my Blueprint 351-based 427, but it's sitting in the garage while the frame and body are at the body shop. Beautiful engine for sure, and 513 HP and 511 torque, it should be more than enough to scare the crap out of the wife; i love a square engine!