Telescoping steering shaft

[Snowman]

Since I'm using an electric power steering unit mounted very close to the steering wheel pillow block, I have to modify (cut down) a portion of the steering shafts. I have a couple questions about the telescoping part with the little spring washers. I assume this is a safety feature so the steering shaft doesn't impale the driver.

1st question - How much telescoping should there be? Even in the case of an accident it looks like the U-joint near the forward footbox panel would have to punch through it's bracket first. Although with the forces of an accident this probably doesn't mean much.

2nd question - how necessary are the spring washers? They make that slip joint ridiculously stiff and with my setup would make installing and removing the steering shaft much more involved by requiring removal of the power steering unit and the upper steering shaft/steering wheel assembly.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139127&d=1607825741

The steering shafts have not yet be cut down in this photo and are only there for mock up of the steering unit.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139128&d=1607825765

I don't expect to be removing the steering shaft often, but would like to keep things as simple as possible.

Cheers,
Patrick

[edwardb]

My impression of the collapsible steering column is not so much that the steering wheel itself would move. Especially since many of us install the Russ Thompson turn signal assembly which is going to trap the wheel down to the bearing block. But rather the steering column would collapse the other direction, e.g. from the outer footbox bearing into the footbox. In other words, the chassis being collapsed wouldn't by definition push the steering wheel back into the driver. Hopefully that make sense. I have no idea how effective this might be. Unlike production cars that are crash tested I suspect these haven't been. So it's a theoretical discussion that I have no plans or desire to test in the real world. But as long as you're not preventing that movement, the function still exists as I understand it.

Regarding the washers (called Belleville washers) those are intended to prevent any slack, wobble, movement, etc. between the inner and outer sections of the telescoping column. Often guys will leave them out and then complain their steering wheel has a bit of free movement. Which is to be avoided of course. If your column doesn't have that movement, I guess they could be left out. But I'd be a little suspicious frankly. I've used oversized ones and sometimes even add set screws to eliminate every bit of looseness. So be careful with that one.

[Snowman]

My impression of the collapsible steering column is not so much that the steering wheel itself would move. Especially since many of us install the Russ Thompson turn signal assembly which is going to trap the wheel down to the bearing block. But rather the steering column would collapse the other direction, e.g. from the outer footbox bearing into the footbox. In other words, the chassis being collapsed wouldn't by definition push the steering wheel back into the driver. Hopefully that make sense. I have no idea how effective this might be. Unlike production cars that are crash tested I suspect these haven't been. So it's a theoretical discussion that I have no plans or desire to test in the real world. But as long as you're not preventing that movement, the function still exists as I understand it.

Regarding the washers (called Belleville washers) those are intended to prevent any slack, wobble, movement, etc. between the inner and outer sections of the telescoping column. Often guys will leave them out and then complain their steering wheel has a bit of free movement. Which is to be avoided of course. If your column doesn't have that movement, I guess they could be left out. But I'd be a little suspicious frankly. I've used oversized ones and sometimes even add set screws to eliminate every bit of looseness. So be careful with that one.

Your description of the accident scenario makes sense to me. I share your desire not to test in the real world, lol.

I really like the idea of adding set screws. When I test fit the washers I had to wail on it pretty hard with a mallet to get them in there. Separating them required the use of a hammer and brass drift. Not sure if I described it well, but does this sound like a level of friction you experienced? I'm kinda thinking set screws would be a happy medium allowing the hollow tube to slide up more easily towards the power steering unit to remove the lower steering shaft and still help to prevent any slop between the telescoping column parts.

Maybe the best course of action is just to use the washers on final install. I know the electric power steering is non-standard and the more complicated steering shaft install is just part of the design trade-off. Regardless, thanks for your post. Makes me think about problems from different angles. More than one right way to go about the build, it's really fun so far and I'm enjoying working through these challenges.

[edwardb]

Your description of the accident scenario makes sense to me. I share your desire not to test in the real world, lol.

I really like the idea of adding set screws. When I test fit the washers I had to wail on it pretty hard with a mallet to get them in there. Separating them required the use of a hammer and brass drift. Not sure if I described it well, but does this sound like a level of friction you experienced? I'm kinda thinking set screws would be a happy medium allowing the hollow tube to slide up more easily towards the power steering unit to remove the lower steering shaft and still help to prevent any slop between the telescoping column parts.

Maybe the best course of action is just to use the washers on final install. I know the electric power steering is non-standard and the more complicated steering shaft install is just part of the design trade-off. Regardless, thanks for your post. Makes me think about problems from different angles. More than one right way to go about the build, it's really fun so far and I'm enjoying working through these challenges.

No way it should be that tight or require heavy hammer hits and/or extreme measures. I've never had one that was that tight, but others have. Some to the point of not being able to get them back apart so Factory Five replaced. I doubt the washers are the cause. Typically they only take up a little slack and as I mentioned before I've had to use thicker ones on occasion for them to do their job. Make sure the inner shaft is clean and rust free. Use a file to make sure there aren't any protrusions or whatever, like at the ends. Maybe polish it up a bit with some emery cloth. Same for the outer shaft. Make sure nothing sticking out or whatever. I little bit of lube doesn't hurt, but don't need to be crazy about it. Also, check both for straightness. If it doesn't slide in with just a reasonable amount of hand force or light tapping I'd contact Factory Five.

[jwhit]

mine still felt a little wiggly after all installed and to get my wheel at comfortable distance where my hands were not hitting dash i had to pull shaft out a little that only left 1 of the spring washers in tube
so i added set screw to take up the play.i threaded the outer tube and used set screw with nut just like on joints so it can still telescope if needed but it made mine rock solid

[Snowman]

mine still felt a little wiggly after all installed and to get my wheel at comfortable distance where my hands were not hitting dash i had to pull shaft out a little that only left 1 of the spring washers in tube
so i added set screw to take up the play.i threaded the outer tube and used set screw with nut just like on joints so it can still telescope if needed but it made mine rock solid

I agree there is some slop in there and I think the hollow DD shaft I received had a slight bend in it. I had to cut it down for the electric power steering mod and once cut down it moves much more freely. I added set screws like you did and Edwardb suggested and that shored everything. I'm quite happy with the install now. I feel like it's very clean and kind of like stealth power steering :rolleyes:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139477&d=1608308304

[Snowman]

On another note, I got a call from epowersteering and he's sending me another bracket to modify and send back. He may start offering a kit specific to the Coupe for this style of installation. I think I'll make a couple of cardboard templates too because I see where this could also be a relatively simple bolt in installation as well for those that are not interested in welding on their frame, which is completely understandable! If I had to do it over again I would still weld my bracket in, I just like how solid it feels and I think it made for a very clean install.

Biggest downside I see can so far is the RF fuse panel won't fit in that location. I think that's in the proximity where Edwardb placed his, Paul please correct me if I'm wrong. I have some ideas on where I want the fuse panel, but that's a ways off still. Focusing on mechanicals to get it to a roller first then I'll dig into the wiring.

[Alphamacaroon]

Looks amazing! Sometimes wish I had gone that route myself. If you want another idea for a fuse box location you can try this location:

139478

Has worked out really well for me. It's hard to tell from the picture but it does not interfere at all with foot/leg placement at all and is really easy to see the fuses without having to turn your head upside down.

[edwardb]

Biggest downside I see can so far is the RF fuse panel won't fit in that location. I think that's in the proximity where Edwardb placed his, Paul please correct me if I'm wrong. I have some ideas on where I want the fuse panel, but that's a ways off still. Focusing on mechanicals to get it to a roller first then I'll dig into the wiring.

Don't have any great pictures. But you can see where I put the RF panel in this view. This is a pretty standard location I think for the Gen 3 Coupe. Saw others the same way. Wasn't original with me. I see people commenting that this isn't a very handy location. Actually works fine IMO. Don't know if this conflicts with the space you need for the PS unit.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=87960&d=1530223413

[Snowman]

Looks amazing! Sometimes wish I had gone that route myself. If you want another idea for a fuse box location you can try this location:

139478

Has worked out really well for me. It's hard to tell from the picture but it does not interfere at all with foot/leg placement at all and is really easy to see the fuses without having to turn your head upside down.

Thanks!

I would definitely use that location...except that's where I'm planning to place the ECU for the steering, LOL.

I'll have to spend some quality time staring down the coupe and all it's nooks and crannies. Some initial thoughts are somewhere around the transmission tunnel or possibly the dash with a door/access panel, just spitballing'. The good news is I actually like doing wiring so I don't feel limited on location by the harnesses.

[Snowman]

Don't have any great pictures. But you can see where I put the RF panel in this view. This is a pretty standard location I think for the Gen 3 Coupe. Saw others the same way. Wasn't original with me. I see people commenting that this isn't a very handy location. Actually works fine IMO. Don't know if this conflicts with the space you need for the PS unit.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=87960&d=1530223413

That's exactly where the motor sits, LOL.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139495&d=1608337794

I kind of like the idea of having the fuse panel hidden behind an access panel. If I find a good cubby hole somewhere it'll take some fab work, but what's another aluminum panel when you have 60 some odd to deal with already:p

[mike223]

I really like the installation keeping the EPAS out of the engine compartment.

You want might to consider putting a steering quickener in there too (between the EPAS and the front of the footbox).

I'm using a 1.5:1 and my Saturn Vue EPAS will pull 315 slicks parked on concrete with one finger (roadster).

1.5:1 changed me from about 3.25 turns lock to lock to about 2 turns lock to lock (exact figures depend on how many rack limiters you put in).

I've also occasionally used a 2:1 steering quickener (same size / footprint / shafts) but the EPAS only pulls that if rolling - makes steering about 1 turn lock to lock - too twitchy for the big road, but perfect for a tight autocross course.


My recommendation would be to install in a manner where you can easily go back + forth between a steering quickener and a straight shaft.


But be extra thoughtful to build it in a manner where you never have a steering failure...


P.S. You'd also have to watch the pedal box - I'm not sure you've got room for a steering quickener there if you're using the Wilwood pedal box.

I had enough room in a roadster, but I'm using the SN95 pedal box.


https://pitstopusa.com/i-5072013-coleman-steering-quickener-1-5-1-2-bolt-mount.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5vb-BRCRARIsAJBKc6KNf9ZvHsT477geeVx_FNtIhsjbyuWX-cdUVrF1shw7Mat68PkUVywaAq9zEALw_wcB


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139128&d=1607825765

[Snowman]

I really like the installation keeping the EPAS out of the engine compartment.

You want might to consider putting a steering quickener in there too (between the EPAS and the front of the footbox).

I'm using a 1.5:1 and my Saturn Vue EPAS will pull 315 slicks parked on concrete with one finger (roadster).

1.5:1 changed me from about 3.25 turns lock to lock to about 2 turns lock to lock (exact figures depend on how many rack limiters you put in).

I've also occasionally used a 2:1 steering quickener (same size / footprint / shafts) but the EPAS only pulls that if rolling - makes steering about 1 turn lock to lock - too twitchy for the big road, but perfect for a tight autocross course.


My recommendation would be to install in a manner where you can easily go back + forth between a steering quickener and a straight shaft.


But be extra thoughtful to build it in a manner where you never have a steering failure...

Thanks!

I didn't know something like that existed. That's pretty neat. It would be a close fit with the right hand most master cylinder. Not something I'm going to worry about until it is road worthy, but really glad you shared that.

Do you know if there are other manual steering racks available with different steering ratios? I did a quick search, but my Google Foo is not strong with me. Seems like that might be a slightly more elegant, albeit expensive, solution if the one from FF feels like I'm trying to steer a yacht, lol.

[mike223]

Thanks!

I didn't know something like that existed. That's pretty neat. It would be a close fit with the right hand most master cylinder. Not something I'm going to worry about until it is road worthy, but really glad you shared that.

Do you know if there are other manual steering racks available with different steering ratios? I did a quick search, but my Google Foo is not strong with me. Seems like that might be a slightly more elegant, albeit expensive, solution if the one from FF feels like I'm trying to steer a yacht, lol.

I looked about other steering racks too but the 15:1 Flaming River seems to be the typical manual rack.

It's not bad (and some even complain about it being "too twitchy") out on the big road.

The only time I noticed it being too slow for my taste is getting boxed into a tight corner on an autocross course.


That sort of corner required a full turn on the wheel to get in to, and a full turn off the wheel before I could get back on the throttle hard - which is quite a bit of hand over hand when you're in a hurry.

The 1.5:1 makes it more like half a turn in + out, which cuts out the hand over hand.


I was just looking at all that wide open space (before the engine + pedal box install) and thought it would have been much easier to do now than it was to do it later in the build (like I did).

[Snowman]

I looked about other steering racks too but the 15:1 Flaming River seems to be the typical manual rack.

It's not bad (and some even complain about it being "too twitchy") out on the big road.

The only time I noticed it being too slow for my taste is getting boxed into a tight corner on an autocross course.


That sort of corner required a full turn on the wheel to get in to, and a full turn off the wheel before I could get back on the throttle hard - which is quite a bit of hand over hand when you're in a hurry.

The 1.5:1 makes it more like half a turn in + out, which cuts out the hand over hand.


I was just looking at all that wide open space (before the engine + pedal box install) and thought it would have been much easier to do now than it was to do it later in the build (like I did).

I had the same though about installing the quickener now since things are more accessible. I have zero plans for auto cross activities. The only track time I plan is just some driver training on willow springs (I'm inexperienced in something this high performance). Otherwise it will be be a street machine 99% of the time. One compromise I may do is do a few more rivnuts on a couple of the other driver's side footbox panels so I can have more access if it ever comes to that. It looks like I would need to fab up and weld or bolt in another bracket for the quickener so that would definitely be invasive to say the least.

I'm not really helping may case much here, LOL. I do have a good bit of time before I get to where I limit access to the footbox. Maybe I give it a whirl in the rolling chassis stage or in the go-kart stage and hold off on those panels for as long as I can. Thanks for the suggestions, definitely good food for thought.

[mike223]

It looks like I would need to fab up and weld or bolt in another bracket for the quickener so that would definitely be invasive to say the least.



It definitely has to bolt to something solid.

While I was looking it up for you I found they now have a few more mounting options than I had when I was prototyping fit.

Looks like some of them would work especially easily with conventional power racks:

http://www.colemanracing.com/Steering-Quickener-15-to-1-Two-Bolt-P4753.aspx

139528



Just a few further thoughts - you never want one on the steering wheel side of an EPAS because of the torque sensor - it reads the added resistance as steering input and fights the self straightening effect of caster - might be an issue with power racks too - but a lot of dirt track guys run them - and finally, you don't want one without power assist of some sort.


P.S. Nothing against track days - but a lot of us believe that mastering car control in second gear is key in these cars - and the place to learn / practice that skill is autocross.

[Snowman]

P.S. Nothing against track days - but a lot of us believe that mastering car control in second gear is key in these cars - and the place to learn / practice that skill is autocross.

I don't have anything against autocross, I think it's pretty awesome in fact. I hadn't thought of autocross as a way to master car control, but I guess that makes sense. I've never tried it, so I guess I should give it a shot at some point. I know willow springs has a skid pad dedicated to autocross and the driving schools out there do teach it.

Things to think about over the next year or so while building. Thanks again for providing the information on the quickeners. With those kind of mounting options I think I'd be inclined to install downstream of the footbox bearing. Have to see what it looks like with the engine installed.