View Full Version : Motor not quite catching during "start" (Dumb Dumb of the year award goes to...)
David Hodgkins
11-11-2020, 02:35 PM
https://youtu.be/QVP98-oJ2wo
Car has been getting harder and harder to start. It died in a perking lot a few weeks ago and I barewly got in going for the ride home. Starts very rough and then smooths out usually, but yesterday just started and I could not keep it going.
This is what it sounds like now.
302 crate, Holly HP EFI.
Ideas? Looks like all plug wires are connected...
???
:)
bad fuel? clogged fuel filter? clogged injectors?
have you tested for spark? Is the control unit giving you any codes?
Cobradavid
11-11-2020, 05:09 PM
Getting acceptable fuel pressure from the pump?
David Hodgkins
11-11-2020, 06:24 PM
Previously, once the car was started it smoothed out as it warmed up. Don't know if that helps. I'll connect a PC when I can toy see if there are any codes being thrown...
:)
David Hodgkins
11-12-2020, 10:11 AM
How do you clean fuel injectors ?
David almost sounds like the distributor is off timing, did it come loose?
David Hodgkins
11-13-2020, 06:07 PM
David almost sounds like the distributor is off timing, did it come loose?
That is possible. Thanks Walt, I'll check that.
:)
EDIT: Distro is stable. Going to hook up a PC to the EFI over the week end. We'll see what I can get out of it...
:)
David, I'm thinking you are losing the ignition trigger. You can see the tach reset and then momentarily jump when cranking, then it stays at 0. So that's a red flag, although sometimes tachs don't register until it actually starts. First you could spray a little starting fluid or gas in the throttle body and see it it pops off. That would prove if it's fuel or not. Looking at the laptop the connection usually resets when cranking so you probably can't see what's going on. I would suggest setting up internal logging to do a system log. Viewing that will tell you if it's triggering correctly. Also doing an internal regular data log should log everything going on. I can walk you through doing all that if you are not familiar with it.
Bob
David Hodgkins
11-24-2020, 02:30 PM
David, I'm thinking you are losing the ignition trigger. You can see the tach reset and then momentarily jump when cranking, then it stays at 0. So that's a red flag, although sometimes tachs don't register until it actually starts. First you could spray a little starting fluid or gas in the throttle body and see it it pops off. That would prove if it's fuel or not. Looking at the laptop the connection usually resets when cranking so you probably can't see what's going on. I would suggest setting up internal logging to do a system log. Viewing that will tell you if it's triggering correctly. Also doing an internal regular data log should log everything going on. I can walk you through doing all that if you are not familiar with it.
Bob
This is good stuff Bob, although I do not know how to gather log data pn a car that wont start. I'll spray a little starter fluid in and see it it "pops off". I'm also replacing the fuel filter and still plan to clean the injectors.
:)
This is good stuff Bob, although I do not know how to gather log data pn a car that wont start. I'll spray a little starter fluid in and see it it "pops off". I'm also replacing the fuel filter and still plan to clean the injectors.
:)
To set up logging you need to connect a laptop and get online with the ecu. Go to the datalog tab and select “set up ecu logging”. Next you need to select system or normal log. First try system. The next box is trigger type. Select immediate. Now every time you turn on the key it will generate a system log. Crank it for a few seconds. Next I would go back and select “normal datalog” , again with immediate trigger. Crank the engine for a few seconds. You should now have a system log and a datalog stored in the ecu. These should tell you everything you need to know about the electronic side of things. To download you’ll need the laptop connected, key on, but not online with the ecu. You then select “download datalogs” from the datalog tab. This will copy them to the laptop as an SL and DLZ file. Now you can select “open system log” or "datalog" respectively from the datalog tab. If you need help analyzing the data you can email them to me and I’d be glad to look at them. This will probably save you a lot of time and money over throwing parts at it.
Bob
David Hodgkins
11-24-2020, 08:06 PM
To set up logging you need to connect a laptop and get online with the ecu. Go to the datalog tab and select “set up ecu logging”. Next you need to select system or normal log. First try system. The next box is trigger type. Select immediate. Now every time you turn on the key it will generate a system log. Crank it for a few seconds. Next I would go back and select “normal datalog” , again with immediate trigger. Crank the engine for a few seconds. You should now have a system log and a datalog stored in the ecu. These should tell you everything you need to know about the electronic side of things. To download you’ll need the laptop connected, key on, but not online with the ecu. You then select “download datalogs” from the datalog tab. This will copy them to the laptop as an SL and DLZ file. Now you can select “open system log” or "datalog" respectively from the datalog tab. If you need help analyzing the data you can email them to me and I’d be glad to look at them. This will probably save you a lot of time and money over throwing parts at it.
Bob
Awesome info Bob! I'll hook it up and get logs tomorrow and then will send you an email.
:)
David, did you get anything figured out on your problem yet?
David Hodgkins
12-03-2020, 11:26 AM
David, did you get anything figured out on your problem yet?
I send Bob the info he requested. I sprayed a little starter fluid into the throttle body but the motor didn’t even sputter. I think my next move is to wait to see what Bob comes up with, or I might send the log files directly to Holley....
:)
Erik W. Treves
12-03-2020, 11:49 AM
Sounds spark related then - I would hook a timing light to it and see if it flashes as you crank... have you popped the dizzy cap and make sure no corrosion or anything? general mechanical inspection... check if the coil is even active at crank
David Hodgkins
12-03-2020, 12:34 PM
Sounds spark related then - I would hook a timing light to it and see if it flashes as you crank... have you popped the dizzy cap and make sure no corrosion or anything? general mechanical inspection... check if the coil is even active at crank
I hooked up an injector test light and it lights (slowly blinks) as I crank the motor. I'm going to pull a plug or two today to check for fouling. I popped the dizzy and showed to pics to Mike Forted and he said it - and the cap - looked normal. I assume if the coil is bad the test light would not have worked?
:)
Erik W. Treves
12-03-2020, 12:38 PM
Did you check all 8 plug wires? - I would do a resistance check on all 8 plug wires... where / how did you hook up the "injector test light"?
David Hodgkins
12-03-2020, 12:52 PM
The injector test light was plugged into the wiring harness injector plug. I only tested the one harness injector plug. That should prove that the coil is working, correct?
Please resist the urge to throw a wrench at me for asking this question, but how do you test resistance of plug wires? :confused:
:)
Erik W. Treves
12-03-2020, 01:18 PM
ok - so that's what I thought you were saying - but I had to ask the question :)
Your test tested the injector (fuel) - which you are saying by your other test of spraying starter fluid into the TB isn't providing a start ("I sprayed a little starter fluid into the throttle body but the motor didn’t even sputter") - so it APPEARS to not be a fuel delivery issue. Not sure what your definition of "a little" is but we will go with that :)
So you Fuel / Air / Spark correct?
let's assume that you didn't block the air path --
So you should have Fuel and Air.... again assuming that the there was enough starting fluid in the combustion chambers.
The fact that the injector test is working as described that means that the ECU is "seeing" trigger to fire injector and therefore should be enough to communicate to fire spark.
So what I had asked you to do was take a TIMING LIGHT -- place on #1 plug wire and see if the timing light pulses as you crank the engine - NOT the injectors (that's fuel) - we are trying to confirm that there is spark traveling from the dizzy to the cylinders.
If the timing light check works then I would pull one plug wire at a time and get a multi-meter out and set it to OHMS and check each wire in turn and the coil wire... the length of the plug wires will give SLIGHTLY different values - but if you have a few bad ones they should stand out.
can you provide the component list by brand of what you are using for ignition (coil/dizzy/MSD?)
If the spark test looks good - then I would go back to fuel - you may have several plugged injectors - you may be a little more deliberate with your starter fluid check... what are you running for EFI? picture of the engine might help.
David Hodgkins
12-03-2020, 02:05 PM
The coil and dizzy are both MSD.
This is a Holley HP Multi port EFI.
I'll put a timing light on it today.
:)
EDIT: Pics:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40734&d=1429278472
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40731&d=1429278468
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40706&d=1429218939
David Hodgkins
12-03-2020, 06:37 PM
Update:
I have spark. Put a timing light on #1 cylinder and got a pulse so I tried the starting fluid again and found out I must have not squirted enough last time because this time I got a momentary fire.
Next step is installing the pressure regulator gauge to see if I have pressure.
:)
Erik W. Treves
12-03-2020, 07:16 PM
ok - so fuel delivery - clogged injectors - bad fuel pump - or my guess the hose between the fuel pump and the holster in the tank has split causing low fuel pressure..
David, I never got an email. Can you resend it please? boblloyd51@yahoo.com
Bob
David Hodgkins
12-07-2020, 03:07 PM
OK. I've done some really boneheaded things in this hobby. But for sure this takes the cake.
Took out the fuel pump to check the line as recommended by Erik AND THE PUMP WAS BONE DRY
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138882&d=1607371634
Put a gallon of gas in and it fired right up.
****!
Epilogue :
It appears the fuel gauge was malfunctioning due to losing power for so long and needs to be recalibrated. The weird thing is I could have sworn I put gas in it to dilute the old gas and thought that was why the gauge was reading nearly full.
I've been so stressed with life that I just forgot to put gas in the freaking car.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28224&d=1398200974
phileas_fogg
12-07-2020, 03:51 PM
Don't feel too bad David. Every one of us has made a similar bone head mistake.
...But not all of us have the stones to fess up!
John
Glad it was something simple and not to expensive David, and yes we have all done them. When I first built mine I had a newly rebuilt engine that was in my donor I had never heard run, when I got it in it wouldn't start, thought i had made a bad deal on donor, started going over everything and found I had hooked the fuel lines reverse!
Gromit
12-07-2020, 05:00 PM
I forget which mentor would remind me, 3 things it needs to run Air, Fuel and Spark. always start with the basics. Thanks for reminding us this is still true.
Yay! It's running again! Glad it was something easy.
Joecobr
12-07-2020, 06:46 PM
We have all made them...my engine wouldn’t start at first because my fuel pump was wired to run in reverse...took a couple of days to figure that out. I tossed a couple of rivet drill bits out thinking they were too dull only to discover my drill was in reverse. Seems to be a theme here!
cob427sc
12-07-2020, 07:07 PM
I've made numerous dumb *** mistakes over the years but my worst was forgetting to install the motor mount bolts in a corvair I was repairing for a friend. Went for a test drive and a mile down the road the engine fell out, still running in the street! Should have seen the cops laugh over that one.
GTBradley
12-07-2020, 08:05 PM
When rebuilding my first car, I left the rear main oil seal in the toolbox because I didn’t know what it was...big mess:mad:
Glad it's all good. You at least gave us something to puzzle over for a while. I even downloaded an old version of the Holley software trying to be able to read that data log you sent me.
David Hodgkins
12-07-2020, 09:34 PM
Glad it's all good. You at least gave us something to puzzle over for a while. I even downloaded an old version of the Holley software trying to be able to read that data log you sent me.
I'm really sorry about that Bob! I'll be sure to update my firmware. THANK YOU for the help!
The stories you guys are telling are too funny! Great stuff! I don't feel quite as bad now (well, except for the time you guys put out helping me...)
:)
KDubU
12-08-2020, 06:58 AM
That is awesome you found the problem David and it’s funny when I saw the thread title changed and the first thing I thought was maybe it was out of gas. Glad it was an easy one! :D
CraigS
12-08-2020, 07:38 AM
I don't actually know your age but the first thing I thought of when I saw the new title was, it's a bi-ch getting old. At 72 I seem to have a few more bonehead moves each year. My last one was on the garden tractor. Mowing across the side of a hill I have to hang out over the side of the seat. Then the weight safety switch in the seat cuts off the ignition. So the third time it cut off I figured maybe I should just coast down the hill, fire it back up, and go up/down instead of across. But it wouldn't fire up. Got the rope and the truck and my wife and towed it into the garage. Spent an hour and it wouldn't fire. Decided best thing to do was walk away. Went out the next AM and it took about 30 seconds to find that the electric switch that operates the clutch to engage the blades was still in the mow position. Yep, it's like a neutral start switch, won't fire up w/ the blades engaged. I am sure happy to see that your solution was the same price as mine. Simple embarrassment.
frankb
12-08-2020, 08:24 AM
Reading the above "Doh" moments makes me feel better! I guess this "senior thing" is universal! :rolleyes:
Big Blocker
12-08-2020, 12:57 PM
Dave,
We're all human . . . we all make bone-head mistakes at times (myself included). Be happy in the thought that it wasn't an expensive repair . . . well, maybe with the prices of gas in SoCal it was. Glad you're back on the road again.
Quote: "I don't feel quite as bad now (well, except for the time you guys put out helping me...)" Dave, that's what we do, we help each other out, we're a "family" - best damn forum I have ever been proud to be associated with . . . Factory Five owners / builders are the best.
Doc ( & The Vegas Boys)