Pricing a build as I near "pulling the trigger"

[phinmak]

Hi folks --

After about 15 years, I'm finally reaching the point where I can pull the trigger on a Mk4 kit. I spent some time with F5 on the phone talking about a Complete Kit crate Coyote build and rapidly watched the build price climb. Apologies for perhaps addressing a point I don't see touched upon very often, but this is part of my "process" for deciding the configuration of the car I'd be happy owning long-term and proud to say I built it.

I am not an experienced car-building-guy, so I expect to hear that I've got some errors in this. I've thrown some round-numbers in here to estimate the cost of a donor car in the various Mustang generations. I'm hoping that folks here might point me in the right direction to correct some of my assumptions. Frankly, I'd rather do this now than when I'm staring down the barrel of a half-finished project with a fatal (!) flaw.

Using these numbers, there's only about $5k difference between the all-in cost of a donor Coyote vs an already-assembled-and-tested engine+transmission crate...

Hopefully this chart is easily understandable.
- The first 4 blue rows are the Mustang donor generations, last 2 are crate engine builds.
- Going left to right: I buy a kit and the minimum parts I'd need from F5 to drop in engine/tranny.
- Then I add the cost to upgrade from solid axle to IRS, about $3k of options that I seem to see on most every build to get to a pre-tax price that gets me outside the building in Wareham.
- The last column is the cost of a donor car delivered to my home, which is based on internet searches this past month. Hoping I've overestimated donor costs. Happy to hear from folks about more realistic figures. F5 and F5engines.com offer engine+tranny+accessory packages, which are the prices for the last two.

Let me know if I'm missing anything here. If you're interested in the exact list of parts behind all of this, here's the Google spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FAXsXbDaAIaiYAlAcRbgYqCXhWF2hER_-F7lhiiXgUw/edit?usp=sharing

Feel like I did when we decided it was time to have kids: not ready but going to do it anyway. Thanks very much! -- PhinMak

[Gordon Levy]

The numbers aren't far off. What you budget it up to you. Reading the forum will cost you more in I wants or you shoulds. Pick a recipe and build the car you want to drive.

[CFranks]

Not sure if you’re intentionally leaving it out since it’s the same for all but I don’t see bodywork or paint which can range $5-15k. Most are usually in the 8-10$ ish.

[Jay-rod427]

Your donor prices are pretty high for the older ones

[Gordon Levy]

CF, at the top of the spreadsheet. it states doing his own bodywork.

[edwardb]

Welcome and congrats on the deep dive into various configurations, options, etc. I agree with Gordon. Your ball park numbers are probably in range. They do add up in a hurry, don't they? Several observations:

Agree you need to decide really what you want and what your budget is. And what you'll be happy with as a final product. There is a big difference in final product between the cheapest donor/solid axle/etc. build and the high end IRS/Coyote build. The difference is considerably more than just the price.

I see you have $500 for self paint in each configuration. Not sure what you're planning there. I've never tried to do body and paint myself (and won't...) and respect those that do. But even doing it yourself the materials alone are more than that. Quite a bit more.

Even if you do a donor Coyote, you're still likely to need the crate motor control pack from Ford Performance. Control packs are still available for the Gen 2 (2015-2017) and of course for the Gen 3 (2018+). Pretty sure they aren't available for the Gen 1 (2011-2014). There have been multiple threads with guys trying to use the donor harness and electronics with a Coyote. Usually not successfully. Especially if you're not knowledgeable and experienced with it.

Speaking of Coyote, if you do a Gen 1 or Gen 2, likely it will run OK with the stock base tune. But run better with a custom tune. The Gen 3 is undriveable with the stock base tune. So you need to expect and plan for a custom tune with the Gen 3. How much it costs is going to depend on what's available in your area or (like always) how much you're willing to spend. In the $500 - $1000 or more range.

I know it's a negative for your budget, but I will give my usual power steering recommendation. Makes a huge difference in how the car drives and the enjoyment factor. Not just about effort. I won't build one without it after having both.

The optional shiny side pipes from Factory Five are stainless not chrome. Personally, I always recommend Gas-N if you want to upgrade the side pipes. A good strategy IMO is start with the base plain steel ones and upgrade them later.

Good luck and have fun with it. It's a fun process and the results are a blast.

[alexmak]

And don’t forget the cost of extra mods that everyone on this forum will suggest! Some are a must have, some are nice to have. Going all in on mods usually adds another 3-5k

[Jeff Kleiner]

I recommend that you become more familiar with configurations of both the complete & base kits as well as the components of various donors because some of your scenarios are a bit off. Frankly if you use a complete kit it really doesn't make sense to use a donor car. Just taking one of your examples you show a Fox body donor for $5K...all that will net you is an engine, trans and rear end that will be anything but fresh (and the rear won't be usable as-is because it will be 4 lug which won't match the front). By the time you make those components fresh and usable you're going to be at pretty near the same money (and performance) as purchasing something like a Mike Forte or Blueprint 302/T-5 package. If you really are budget conscious use everything in the complete kit package...there really isn't anything that absolutely HAS to be upgraded...add an engine and trans package such as I mentioned along with a freshened '94-'98 SN95 rear end, insulation, wheels & tires and paint (and yes, as edwardb mentioned you aren't even going to cover supplies at 500 bucks) and you'll be driving for about $33-34K.

Good luck on your journey!

Jeff

[rich grsc]

That damn Kleiner, :p, he's always on the money. :D

[Papa]

I don't know if this helps, but also look at your build costs in phases. Phase 1 is purchase of the kit, phase 2 is running gear and tires/wheels, phase 3 body and paint. Consider that you can spread the cost out and it makes it a bit more manageable.

I also recommend adding about 5-10% for unexpected costs along the way. Things like fasteners, fluids, tools, and all the little things that you end up buying as you work through the build.

[GoDadGo]

Sound like you've got a good plan with reasonable total cost expectations.

I spent right at $45,000.00 to build Redbone including bodywork and paint.
It was a Complete Kit with all new parts, which included a lot of custom touches even though it was a very basic build.

https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-new/customer-steve-l-graduates-his-mk4-roadster/

Good Luck & Welcome Aboard!

[phinmak]

Hi guys -- Thanks for the feedback!

Suggestions so far:

$500 to "self paint" the body is not going to cover materials. No argument there. Threw out a number just to see what would stick.
Professional painting is going to be $5-15k on top of these numbers.
Watch out for feature creep. Continually adding upgrades seen on the forum is going to add a good amount of cost and a delay in graduation.
Donor Coyotes will need a fair bit of customer harness work and a professional tune. Especially the early gens. Difficult for first timers.
Older donors are probably cheaper than the posted cost, BUT used donors need a fair bit of clean-up or repair. Time and more money here means it gets close to crate cost.
+5-10% for "incidentals"
A vote for power steering. Complete kit list suggest $1k for a Coyote kit and $300 for a generic that would also need a pump and bracket.


Thanks very much for your insight! -- PhinMak

[JohnK]

I'm only on my first build, so not much to add in terms of configuration questions but one thing I'll point out that I don't see is a budget for tools. I thought I had a pretty decently equipped garage but I hadn't built a car before. I was surprised at how many little tools I needed to buy. Some tools I could have "made do" without, but there are a few "must have" tools (IMO) that most people don't have unless they've built one of these cars before. There are many prior discussions on the forum on tools. I'd spend a little time reading through a few of them and getting a sense for what you need. Also factor the cost of things like building a chassis dolly and body buck (if needed).

[GoDadGo]

Professional painting is going to be $5-15k on top of these numbers.


I've got $5,200.00 tied up in my paint work.
Bodyworks was done at my house with the priming and paint done at my pal Ernie's shop. (Dependable Paint & Body of Slidell, Louisiana)
Please know that one gallon of the color alone, because it is Really, Really Red, cost me $1,000.00.
Just remember that all paints are not created equal so this cost could have been reduced, but I spent the money anyway.
Because I didn't want to do any stripes, it saved me a ton of money.
Hope This Helps!

[Papa]

Materials for my paint job at Jeff Kleiner's came to just under $1,500. There are some paints out there that can run $2-3K per gallon.

[phinmak]

One of the things I found interesting is that if you're buying a new rear end for your build, it's only about $1,350 more to go for IRS over the 3-link that comes with the kit. Jeff K mentioned getting a "freshened" '94-'98 to keep cost down from the $2.7k that F5 lists for a new one.



3-link


F5 Part#
Description
Cost


In-Kit
3-link suspension kit, coilovers, LCA, panhead
n/a


16285
Rear Solid Axle Brake Kit (11.65")
$650


16204
Moser 8.8” 3-Link Solid Axle Rear End Housing, 3.55 Gears with 5-lug Axles, Standard Width
$2,699



TOTAL
$3,349




IRS


F5 Part#
Description
Cost


16598
2015 Mustang-based Independent Rear Suspension Kit with KONI coil-overs, tubular control arms, and CV axles
$2,499


16237
2015 Mustang IRS 13” Rear Brake Kit
$699


16668
2018 Mustang IRS 3.55 Center Section, Spindles, and Hubs
$1,499



TOTAL
$4,697

[Avalanche325]

Fox body donors are either completely worn out, or you are now paying for a classic. I don't see them as viable these days.
I agree on the paint. Just my trip to the paint store for color and clear was over $900.

[Papa]

The FFR price for the IRS center section spindles, and hubs can be done for half of your projected cost and includes rear brakes:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-2020-Ford-Mustang-GT-EcoBoost-3-55-Ratio-IRS-Differential-Axle-Assembly-OEM/254720563271?fits=Year%3A2018%7CModel%3AMustang&hash=item3b4e875847:g:22UAAOSwHUdfYhNY

[chmhasy]

The FFR price for the IRS center section spindles, and hubs can be done for half of your projected cost and includes rear brakes:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-2020-Ford-Mustang-GT-EcoBoost-3-55-Ratio-IRS-Differential-Axle-Assembly-OEM/254720563271?fits=Year%3A2018%7CModel%3AMustang&hash=item3b4e875847:g:22UAAOSwHUdfYhNY

I would also check on https://www.car-part.com/ for local used components

[David Hodgkins]

PhinMak, Welcome to the forum. Great 1st thread! I've upgraded your account for full access. My advice is make sure you have a decent camera (modern phones are fine), learn how to use the pic gallery, and make sure to have a build thread. Sometimes "talking it out" online helps you get through challenges. And we love suggesting solutions!

Only thing I'll add at this time is to take your time and enjoy the process! You are going to learn a TON, and the end result will be something to be truly proud of!

:)

[Al_C]

I'm not sure why, but I feel compelled to reply, too. First, welcome to the forum. Second, there's a lot of good advice here from all the input you have received already. Please keep in mind that this illustrious group is REALLY good at spending your money.

I only really looked at the bottom row. I think you are high in some areas and agree you underestimate body and paint. My point is I think those two balance each other out. If you plan on spending about 48K, I think you're pretty darn close. You can build a very nice roadster for that money. Good luck with the build!

[AC Bill]

Keep your eye open for special pricing from FFR, they usually have some great sales, once or twice a year.
When I bought my base kit, for no extra charge FFR included the dress up package at no charge. That included full hoop bumpers/over-riders, wind wings, sun visors, chrome roll bar, leather steering wheel, and some other options. Saved over $2k. At that time they also had a performance suspension package, which offered 3-link, Koni coil-overs, and several other goodies. Sadly, that option package wasn't allowed for Cnd builders, because of some stupid import rules for kit cars.

If your on a budget, build it with whatever you can afford. If that's the donor route, so be it. There are thousands of happy FFR owners of donor built roadsters, out there cruising around. There may be some obstacles, but nothing that can't be overcome. If you buy an older donor for cheap, this should allow you some money to upgrade, or replace parts, that are worn out. Finding the right donor can save you $ thousands, so spend some time carefully shopping for one.

Many fellows used to buy pallet donor packages from auto wreckers. You didn't need to strip the car yourself, nor end up with a mess in your driveway, and an old body to get hauled away. All the donor components you needed, came on a pallet, including the engine, tranny and rear end. There may be some wreckers still offering that service.

[mark jones]

You can find a crate 351 engine and trans for under $7k that is the route I will be going. Also a complete IRS for under $750 used. I am hoping to get it done less paint for $34K

[RRussellTx]

Please know that one gallon of the color alone, because it is Really, Really Red, cost me $1,000.00.


X2,
I just got home from the PPG Store with a $900 gallon of Blue.

[Gordon Levy]

I have paid over $600 for a qt for some pearl reds and I do this professionally. A roadster can be well covered with 2 qts of base using the correct color sealer under the base. 4 coats of a good urethane clear gives a nice surface for a cut polish.

[Chris @ Forma]

PhinMak,
Up until recently, (prior to Covid) I've been able to buy low mileage (<25K) Gen 2 Coyotes with MT-82 Trans, Rear end, rear suspension bits and brakes for less than $8k. The MT-82 does require a shifter that we make as well as a drive shaft but it typically will save you 1500-2000 over a TKO. I would avoid a Gen1 MT-82 as they tend to be problematic. Paint and body work can be all over the place. I've spent anywhere from $600-2000 per gallon for the color. Porsche Guards Red was $475/litre last time I bought this a couple of years ago.

My recommendation for doing this on a bit of a restrictive budget is stretch it out over a couple of years (maybe longer than you like) but don't compromise on what you want in the end.

Welcome to the community and always as for help. Everyone on the forum want you to be successful.

Chris

[Kmcallahan]

Phinmak, remember this is your build. You are on the right track. Plan your work and work your plan. Welcome to the club. I spent more than one iginally planed on kit. Originally was planning on base kit but wanted all new suspension and drivetrain. I wound up with the 25th Anniversary Kit. Now I just need $ for drive train cause that $ went to the extras $ of the 25th Anniversary Kit. That is ok. This is my dream. As is yours. All you can do is run the numbers for what you feel comfortable with and work that plan to your dream. Remember this not a race to finish. It is a journey and an adventure. Good luck and again welcome aboard.

[Papa]

Not to take this thread too far off track and discussing paint costs, why choose a color when you can have them all?

https://www.fapco.com/chromalusion/#:~:text=Prices%20are%20%2465.09%20per%20ounce,pin t%2C%20or%20%241%2C576.69%20per%20quart.&text=Detailed%20description%20of%20Chromalusion%20 paint%20and%20recommended%20application%20procedur es.

And for the bargain price of $6,306.76 per gallon.

[phinmak]

** Edited. Had thought this would also replace the $2,700 IRS suspension kit from FFR but in re-reading your note, you're not suggesting this whole assembly can simply "bolt on" to the Roadster frame as is. **


Hi Papa -- Looks like you've found some used parts for $750 that would replace the $2,200 price for new ones. Of course, there'll be some work to get them to me and cleaned up, but that's a big savings. Cheers!

[Jay-rod427]

Hold up there Papa. Unless I misunderstand, you've just suggested nearly $4k savings in just a few sentences... New IRS from FFR is $4,650... Brakes, 3.55 center, spindles, hubs, plus the suspension architecture, coil-overs, axles, etc...

Then you show me this $750 used set on ebay that appears to be all of the above. There has to be a catch that I'm not seeing.


Used parts that may have been beaten-up is first to mind... so some sand blasting and repainting plus the possibility of other repairs... though there is a 4 month warranty from the seller...
Second, I wonder if I have to replace the coilovers due to the reduced weight of a Roadster vs the original Mustang? Adds back some cost.
Maybe only the center, spindles, hubs and brakes are compatible with a Roadster? The rest doesn't fit in a Roadster frame. But that would still be $750 for a used version of what FFR charges $2,200 new.
Probably would need some new brake lines from the rotors to where the complete-kit's lines end, but that can't be too much...


A good deal, I think. What am I missing here? Thanks for pointing this out! -- PhinMak

Stock mustang is not coil over shock. You get diff housing, brakes, and spindles. Which is all you need to pair with ffr irs package.

That eBay link came from what appears to be a wreck, but it’s seems intact. The reason FFR is so much more expensive is its third hand+ markup.

Also for what it is worth that one is an aluminum housing, which can be susceptible to breaking with abuse. Ffr recommends steel housing for stick cars with power, but the roadster is light weight so less of a concern. You would also need to verify what that has for the driveshaft flange the manual transmission and automatic transmission have different driveshaft flange in stock configuration

[edwardb]

Stock mustang is not coil over shock. You get diff housing, brakes, and spindles. Which is all you need to pair with ffr irs package.

That eBay link came from what appears to be a wreck, but it’s seems intact. The reason FFR is so much more expensive is its third hand+ markup.

Also for what it is worth that one is an aluminum housing, which can be susceptible to breaking with abuse. Ffr recommends steel housing for stick cars with power, but the roadster is light weight so less of a concern. You would also need to verify what that has for the driveshaft flange the manual transmission and automatic transmission have different driveshaft flange in stock configuration

From a donor Mustang IRS pallet, you'll use the center section, knuckles/hubs, and maybe the brakes. I know some are and some aren’t. Sorry I don’t know details on that one. Agreed the rest of the Mustang suspension (control arms, shocks, sub-frame, etc.) isn't usable. Simply doesn't fit and the FFR design is quite different as well.

The Factory Five parts are more expensive because they're brand new in the box with zero miles. Not used or salvage. They are standard Ford Performance catalog items and you can buy them elsewhere for a bit less. But not a lot. Some like having them included with their kit purchase, delivery, etc. Either way.

Factory Five initially said only to use the iron case center section. They later amended that to say the aluminum case was OK. The concern was breaking the mounting ears off the aluminum case. Hasn't proven to be an issue with these cars. It's a robust design plus these cars are so much lighter. I haven't heard of a single case of anyone breaking the aluminum case.

Factory Five has adapters for both the manual and automatic transmission versions. So no issues there.

[stack]

Be smart. Buy your kit when it is on sale. If they have a deal on base kits, buy it. You can get every part from the complete kit from F5 or out in the world. You will also be able to pick and chose each component of the build. Maybe you like AN lines and fittings or want a Aeromotive fuel system? Makes sense to not buy components twice.

stack

[NiceGuyEddie]

Since the spreadsheet was so good, I got hooked on reading this ENTIRE thing.

One needs to budget about $1,000 for sharpies, acetone, rustoleum, painter's tape, drill bits, hardware that you might want to replace (e.g. Stainless Steel instead of kit-provided black oxide), shop rags, sandpaper, solder, soldering flux, latex gloves, mechanic's gloves, odd tools such as a roller for sound-deadening material...

And some guys have spent $1,000 on alignment for IRS cars.

[emac]

You could keep an eye out for a used kit. Maybe someone did a pandemic purchase and decided it wasn't really what they wanted to do.

As for a budget, I am the last person that should comment on one. I fell victim to late night forum searching. I put all the receipts in a box for someone else to add up!

[emac]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?36473-CA-FOR-SALE-Non-Started-MKIV-Kit-3-Link-with-a-Bunch-of-Parts-18-500


Not sure if this is still available...

[CraigS]

I did an IRS upgrade to my old MkII 4 years ago. I made sure that the rear suspension pallet I bought included brakes. They work wonderfully. I ended up w/ an aluminum 315 diff and ran it for 18-20 autocrosses per year on Hoosier A7s. These are the stickiest autocross tires available. NO diff problems at all.
So this;
IRS
F5 Part# Description Cost
16598 2015 Mustang-based Independent Rear Suspension Kit with KONI coil-overs, tubular control arms, and CV axles $2,499
16237 2015 Mustang IRS 13” Rear Brake Kit $699
16668 2018 Mustang IRS 3.55 Center Section, Spindles, and Hubs $1,499
TOTAL $4,697
becomes this;
IRS
F5 Part# Description Cost
16598 2015 Mustang-based Independent Rear Suspension Kit with KONI coil-overs, tubular control arms, and CV axles $2,499
16237 2015 Mustang IRS 13” Rear Brake Kit $00
16668 2018 Mustang IRS 3.55 Center Section, Spindles, and Hubs $1,000 or less
TOTAL $3,499

[rich grsc]

Stock mustang is not coil over shock. You get diff housing, brakes, and spindles. Which is all you need to pair with ffr irs package.

That eBay link came from what appears to be a wreck, but it’s seems intact. The reason FFR is so much more expensive is its third hand+ markup.

Also for what it is worth that one is an aluminum housing, which can be susceptible to breaking with abuse. Ffr recommends steel housing for stick cars with power, but the roadster is light weight so less of a concern. You would also need to verify what that has for the driveshaft flange the manual transmission and automatic transmission have different driveshaft flange in stock configuration

Sorry that's just bad info. It's a 2300# car not 3600-4000# car.

[Hacksaw84]

I will add my two cents which goes along with a few other comments.

The conclusion I came to when figuring out my build was if you are going to do the coyote and IRS then forget about the complete donor car idea. You would need a 2015+ to get both of those components. You are really only using the engine and some IRS parts. You would need to find a car with a good front and rear. Based on my research of actual auction sale prices and fees it was expensive, then you would be selling off parts to try and recoup some of the cost. I would suggest buying them in pieces. You could still do donor parts but not the whole car. Also, I think there is basically no point to getting a 05-10 donor. For a few reasons. I would just delete that all together to narrow it down.

For complete kit vs base kit it came down to how much stuff I wanted to customize or upgrade. I did a lot so I went with base and added on where I wanted to and there were still things I got that I didn't use. The complete kit does simplify the whole project (and maybe make it quicker) if you are following a more normal build.

I think you have all the major items costed in the ballpark (other than maybe the cost of paint). However, there are so many little things you can spend money on or add. Like most of what Breeze sells, haha. I would just add a "miscellaneous" cost. Maybe 5% of all the known components, it generally increases with the cost.

[mark jones]

I hope you don't mind me adding a couple of build questions. I'm also trying to figure out the cost of my build as well. I read about guys adding things that I can't find on FF5 parts lists that I'd like to add in They are the drop box for the battery and the drop box for the trunk to get more space in there. Anyone know where to locate these? Thanks.

[JohnK]

FFmetal.com (http://ffmetal.com) makes a drop box for the battery in the trunk. Note that it doesn't work with the 2015 IRS setup.

Another popular option for the battery is the Breeze front battery mount (https://www.breezeautomotive.com/shop/engine-compartment-battery-mounting-kit-mk3-3-1-4-roadster/).

As far as the drop trunk, Russ Thompson makes (http://www.norcal-cobras.com/store/russ_garage/russ_garage.htm) a kit for this. it's not on his website, but if you e-mail him you can order direct. Some folks also fab up their own.

FWIW - I have both the RT drop trunk and the Breeze front battery box and would definitely recommend both as worthwhile additions.

The general theme here is that the options available from FFR directly are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to customizing your build. There's an entire cottage industry built around supporting these builds. Spend a little time browsing the links under the "Vendors" section at the top of the forum, and you'll very quickly find a thousand ways to balloon your build budget. ;)

[Hacksaw84]

I hope you don't mind me adding a couple of build questions. I'm also trying to figure out the cost of my build as well. I read about guys adding things that I can't find on FF5 parts lists that I'd like to add in They are the drop box for the battery and the drop box for the trunk to get more space in there. Anyone know where to locate these? Thanks.

Russ Thompson sells the drop trunk kit. Just email him.
Breeze makes a front battery box and ffmetal makes a rear one.

There might be other vendors.

[Avalanche325]

One thing to consider with a donor build. There has been more than one person on here that did a donor build and then within a couple years had replaced every donor part. I always shoot for what will be the cheapest in the long run. Saving money now to pay more later is not saving money at all. Everyone's situation and approach is different, so just the way I like do things. I was going to do a donor build and upgrade over time. That was right about when decent Fox body prices were going up. The pricing just didn't make sense for me. So I went all new. I don't even use parts store "remanufactured" parts these days. I've been in the water pump and starter of the month club before. Never again.

The one thing I would never do is put a donor wiring harness in a car. Nothing will make you hate a car more than ongoing intermittent electrical issues.