Thoughts on an unfinished Gen 1 GTM Kit?

[HerculezJT]

Hey all, been prowling for some time and a Gen 1 kit popped up close to me. its unfinished, seller states he has go Karted it but has removed the engine since then. body and interior is unfinished, comes with g50 03 transaxle, clutch, starters, full axles, suspensions, wiring. no hatch or glass. I know Gen 1 were plagued with problems, seller is asking 25k. I know I would end up re doing some of the work to meet my standards and what I want, reason why I haven't pulled a trigger now was because of finding a transaxle, so this coming with one has my interest peaked. just curious on what yall thoughts are and if picking up a GTM in the middle of a project is worth it. Also, with Gen 1 GTMs, what problems areas should I focus and ask about

[HerculezJT]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ffrbuilder/permalink/3890408980986064/?sale_post_id=3890408980986064

[cob427sc]

I built an early Gen 1. There were some issues but most can be resolved by reading through the early threads (window fit, shift linkage, nose fit, antitheft in computer, gas tank cross feed, etc.) It's probably a little more challenge than ordering a new kit but it's a great price if everything is there. Cable shift being included is a plus.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

In reality, there are really no more problems/issues with the Gen I than the Gen II. The only real significant change on the Gen II was to the front suspension mounts to give more caster.

[HerculezJT]

Appreciate the input guys, I am already planning a long road with the body work, good to know that the struggle isnt at all different with the Gen II

[Presto51]

Hey all, been prowling for some time and a Gen 1 kit popped up close to me. its unfinished, seller states he has go Karted it but has removed the engine since then. body and interior is unfinished, comes with g50 03 transaxle, clutch, starters, full axles, suspensions, wiring. no hatch or glass. I know Gen 1 were plagued with problems, seller is asking 25k. I know I would end up re doing some of the work to meet my standards and what I want, reason why I haven't pulled a trigger now was because of finding a transaxle, so this coming with one has my interest peaked. just curious on what yall thoughts are and if picking up a GTM in the middle of a project is worth it. Also, with Gen 1 GTMs, what problems areas should I focus and ask about

Personally if I was to take on a project that someone else has given up on, and really, really want to do it, not to flip it and make profit, but to build one to enjoy this might be worth taking a look at. But:

Negotiate a price that your can be comfortable with, ( take notice of what is missing, and what you will need to complete the build)

Go into this project with a mind set of disassemble the whole car, so you can inspect all the parts, and build it your way. (I've been around some projects that were started and abandoned, and the people who bought it, thinking that they have a head start, only to find out that they have to redo most if it) The chassis/go kart build is pretty much straight forward, you shouldn't go too wrong there.

Know that the GTM will need a lot of TLC when coming to the body stage. Also know that fiberglass work will be in your future . To a lot of home builders this is really the most challenging aspect of the build.

It's not an easy project but if you can make it to the end, it will be worth it.

Not a sermon just a thought

Ron

[HerculezJT]

Presto, thank you for the reply, i did plan on doing basically a full tear down and rebuild. I know the body work is the dream killer on these kits and its what i expected, guessing my concern was the Gen 1 being significantly worse then the Gen 2.

The seller has been amazing and we came to agreed transaction, however, i believe Georgia just squashed any hopes with this find. Apparently since I am not the name on the MCO/MSO, i will not be able to register it in GA. GA clearly states that the applicant has to have the name on the MCO/MSO. I called my local DMV and talk to someone who appeared to be knowledgeable with kits and she informed me that even a Notarized Bill of Sale wont do, she recommended having the original owner get it titled in the home state, but that wont happen due to it being unfinished. She was nice and even admitted it is dumb, but i dont think i have any other options. The seller says he is going to contact FFR, but i dont think they can legally change a name on the MCO/MSO already issued, then again, I hope I wrong.

[bil1024]

Presto, thank you for the reply, i did plan on doing basically a full tear down and rebuild. I know the body work is the dream killer on these kits and its what i expected, guessing my concern was the Gen 1 being significantly worse then the Gen 2.

The seller has been amazing and we came to agreed transaction, however, i believe Georgia just squashed any hopes with this find. Apparently since I am not the name on the MCO/MSO, i will not be able to register it in GA. GA clearly states that the applicant has to have the name on the MCO/MSO. I called my local DMV and talk to someone who appeared to be knowledgeable with kits and she informed me that even a Notarized Bill of Sale wont do, she recommended having the original owner get it titled in the home state, but that wont happen due to it being unfinished. She was nice and even admitted it is dumb, but i dont think i have any other options. The seller says he is going to contact FFR, but i dont think they can legally change a name on the MCO/MSO already issued, then again, I hope I wrong.

There is a spot on back of MCO seller can sign, when I bought last kit unbuilt from seller they just signed it and NY accepted it

[HerculezJT]

There is a spot on back of MCO seller can sign, when I bought last kit unbuilt from seller they just signed it and NY accepted it

From what I have read, its Dealers only, I talked to the Department of Revenue and just trying to verify some information with a local inspector, fingers crossed, it might work out

[Straversi]

Talk to FFR. MSO/MCO transfers are supposed to be done by dealers but kit cars don’t really fit into the framework of how MSOs are converted into titles. All of the rules are written with and OEM, a car dealership and and end user in mind. That’s why registering these can generate strange DMV stories. We don’t fit the rules as they were written.

Ask FFR to reissue the MCO in your name. As long as they have a paper trailer/ bill of sale that shows how it came under your ownership, they should be able to do it. FFR might not know that they can do it so be persistent. They would need the original MCO sent back to them and they might need a “hold harmless” letter before they reissue a duplicate.

Good luck.
-Steve

[cob427sc]

I know the present owner probably can't title the vehicle in its current state, but if he's reasonable, what if you complete the car, have him title in his name and then transfer the title to you. Sounds a little confoluted and there is some risks inthere but if there is no other way ----. I wonder what they do if someone buys a car and dies before its registered? must be some way around this issue.

[HerculezJT]

Talk to FFR. MSO/MCO transfers are supposed to be done by dealers but kit cars don’t really fit into the framework of how MSOs are converted into titles. All of the rules are written with and OEM, a car dealership and and end user in mind. That’s why registering these can generate strange DMV stories. We don’t fit the rules as they were written.

Ask FFR to reissue the MCO in your name. As long as they have a paper trailer/ bill of sale that shows how it came under your ownership, they should be able to do it. FFR might not know that they can do it so be persistent. They would need the original MCO sent back to them and they might need a “hold harmless” letter before they reissue a duplicate.

Good luck.
-Steve

So i agree that titling and registration of kit cars are a bit unorthodox in the normal world of cars and getting titles/registrations. Bad news is, the Seller contacted Sally and was told they cant change the name, i looked up examples for boats and trailers and its basically the same, however i could not find an exact reason as to why they cant. It is either because of some law or they just cant.



I know the present owner probably can't title the vehicle in its current state, but if he's reasonable, what if you complete the car, have him title in his name and then transfer the title to you. Sounds a little confoluted and there is some risks inthere but if there is no other way ----. I wonder what they do if someone buys a car and dies before its registered? must be some way around this issue.

Thought did cross my mind, but i think the risks are to high for me to sink money into the GTM and not being able to actually "own" it, even though possession is 9/10ths of the law.

I am trying to get in contact with my local inspector, talking to GA DOR/DMV, they state i can, but in the end, all the paper work goes to the inspector. So if i get a thumbs up, I am pulling the trigger

[crash]

You might attack this from another angle? Take a look at what the rules are for "homebuilt" cars in your state. You might be able to submit it as such and avoid the MSO issue? Really depends upon the rules of your state. I have registered multiple vehicles here in CA that way and while I had to supply all receipts for the builds and also have the vehicles inspected by the California Highway Patrol, I never needed any MSO, as I was the originator of the build. Just a thought.

[HerculezJT]

You might attack this from another angle? Take a look at what the rules are for "homebuilt" cars in your state. You might be able to submit it as such and avoid the MSO issue? Really depends upon the rules of your state. I have registered multiple vehicles here in CA that way and while I had to supply all receipts for the builds and also have the vehicles inspected by the California Highway Patrol, I never needed any MSO, as I was the originator of the build. Just a thought.

So GA has a pretty specific list under Assembled Vehicles which states the following:

"Assembled motor vehicles or motorcycles are defined in Georgia law as:
Any motor vehicle or motorcycle manufactured from a manufacturer’s kit or fabricated parts, including replicas and original designs
A new vehicle consisting of a prefabricated body, chassis, and drive train
Homemade and not mass-produced by any manufacturer for retail sale
Not otherwise excluded from emission requirements and in compliance with Chapter 8 Title 40 of Georgia code"
Source: https://dor.georgia.gov/assembled-and-unconventional-vehicles


but when registering:
"Manufacturer’s Statement of Origin (MSO) or appropriate documentation of purchase of all major components. The vehicle must comply with:
Chapter 8 Title 40 of Georgia Code
Applicable Federal emissions standards"
Source: https://dor.georgia.gov/assembled-and-unconventional-vehicles

That or part is what makes me think i would not have an issue, but ims ure most of you understand, titling and registering is another process all in its own category.

Got a hold of the Local Inspector and he does not believe it will be an issue, hes is verifying it for me though, so just waiting on a call back with my fingers crossed.

[SteveE]

You could look into what it would take to title and register in another state, say Montana. There have been builders here that have done that even though they live in another state. Just a thought.

[crash]

You could look into what it would take to title and register in another state, say Montana. There have been builders here that have done that even though they live in another state. Just a thought.

IIRC there were some pretty big problems with this and a couple of prominent kit car companies/people. I don't think I would consider doing this.