ecu tuning for these?

[3000gttom]

anyone familiar with tuning the computers on these

what are the best options for tuning the maps?

which donor cars will have flashable ecu's?

i know looked into evoscan with my 3000gt and it looks like a pretty good logger and is compatible with subaru's.
and ecuflash is a free flashing program u just need the right reflash cable

anyone with more info?

these cars will probably be in need of a tune right away due to different breathing characteristics of the engine being in the back. and having an aftermarket exhaust

[PhyrraM]

Other can speak in more detail, but EVERY ECU from a targetted donor ('02-'07 WRX) is flashable and has free public domain software available to do it. The hardware (cables) is about $100.

[Draco-REX]

Open-source tuning is the way to go.

If they can get the stock airbox and downpipe to bolt up, the stock tune should work fine.

[305mouse]

Using a Rom Raider program works great for the diy'er. There are some forums with lots of info for those cars. Cobb's AP is used a ton. Both V1 and V2. Version one is year specific, but you can get used ones cheap, about $200-250 at this point. You have to make sure it has bee "un-married" from the previous ECU or else it won't do you any good. Version 2 has two models. One for 2002-2005 and one for 06-07. It's more expensive but has more features. You can adjust the rpm's at idle with that one. With Cobb you have to have a tuner program the car. There are other ones out there like the stand alone hydra, but those are the most popular routes to go.

[apexanimal]

cobb is easy but costs quite a bit...

open source/rom raider is a bit more diy but costs less and has more options...

[Twinspool]

Any provisions for flex fuel compatibility or is that solely a standalone ECU add-on?

[Draco-REX]

Any provisions for flex fuel compatibility or is that solely a standalone ECU add-on?

The Subaru ECU is very tuneable. There are many out there running e85 on the stock ECU. Really you just need to upgrade the pump, injectors, and tune and you're burning corn.

[Inthenameofweez]

E85 fuel use does not required a standalone ECU to program.

A simple change of injector and ignition timing can yield a beautiful result of practically detonation free boosting.

[Evan78]

Any provisions for flex fuel compatibility or is that solely a standalone ECU add-on?If you're running an OEM ecu, you can have different tunes for different fuels loaded on your laptop or AccessPort. When you switch fuel, you load the appropriate tune.

I think that Cobb (AccessPort) figured out how to load multiple tunes on the ECU and switch between them using some combination of the a/c button and cruise control, or something along those lines. I can't remember if this ever made it into production, I'm trying to remember things from 2004-2005. Or maybe it was EcuTek that supported this on Subarus.

Irrelevant but interesting:

I did a brief search and only found the ability on the Nissan GTR version:
http://www.accessecu.com/support/docs/tuningguide/AccessTUNER_HelpFile_GTR.pdf

From page 6 of the Nissan GTR document:

Real time switchable map changes with cruise control: The active switchable map is chosen and selected with the use of cruse control buttons. The selected map is temporarily displayed on the gauge function screen. To enter map selection routine press the “cancel” button on wheel. The boost gauge will temporarily display the current map with small steady proportional jumps in displayed boost. While in this mode toggle up and down with the set and coast button to incrementally step through maps.

For a video demonstration of this feature see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtklJvN-Pds

[Ks2]

look up clark turner tuning... one of the best in tuning the stock ECU

[Evan78]

look up clark turner tuning... one of the best in tuning the stock ECUThat's who I like too. He dyno tuned my Legacy. He's got a long running thread on nasioc (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1516351) for his mail-order tunes. His contact info is there in the 1st post.

[Flashburn]

The guys who do high end subaru race cars in the boston area use Rom Raider for their open source tuning needs on their AWD dyno.

[Inthenameofweez]

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.290789860937264.90523.117377201611865&type=1

[305mouse]

Don't forget Dom from MPS in Washington state. Great guy, also builds engines and really knows his stuff.

[Twinspool]

I'm aware that I could tune for E85 with pump and injectors and a flash. What I'm looking for is flex fuel compatability, E85, dino juice or any mix of the two. The sensors exist from other FFVs but the ECU inputs and the capability of running dual fuel tables is what I don't know about. If the stock ECU can't handle it, a megasquirt could.

[Draco-REX]

I'm aware that I could tune for E85 with pump and injectors and a flash. What I'm looking for is flex fuel compatability, E85, dino juice or any mix of the two. The sensors exist from other FFVs but the ECU inputs and the capability of running dual fuel tables is what I don't know about. If the stock ECU can't handle it, a megasquirt could.
Ahh. That's different. If you want hands free adjustment of fueling dependant on what's in the tank, you'd need to use a standalone. A netbook and tactrix cable is a lot cheaper.

[Evan78]

You might Hotrod's thread on NASIOC interesting:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

In post 4, he mentions his post numbers relevant to running different ethanol blends (everything between e10 and e85).

Hotrod appears to have setup a forum for e85 discussion: http://e85forum.net

[Evan78]

As far as I know, Subaru hasn't sold any flex fuel vehicles in the US, so I don't think there's any off the shelf oem ecu that would drop in easily. Maybe in other markets though? Brazil perhaps?

[PhyrraM]

I would suggest to adapt a GM Flex fuel ECU and sensors to run the Subaru motor, but I don't think they have a flex-fuel turbo motor to grab an ECU from.

[BrandonDrums]

I think with an Accessport and the right fuel mods, you can easily switch between a few maps for the different fuel types. You'd just have to make sure you drain the fuel tank. Depending on the type of fuel tank FFR puts on these things, that could end up being a pretty easy task.

I am a firm believer in Opensource although you can't switch maps nearly as easy as an Accessport. Opensource software needs to hard-write to the ECU every time you make a change. With an Accessport, it can piggyback so you can switch maps on the fly and the car will use the Accessport's virtual ECU emulation OR you can actually hard-write the map to the car's ecu so you can unplug the accessport. If you're wanting to switch fuel types and tunes very freqently, pony up for an Accessport. If you are just upgrading the engine components for more power and aren't going to mess with tuning for different fuel types, do Opensource. There's more community support on how to tune with opensource and it's cheap cheap

[evo818]

There's really no way to switch maps on the fly other than accessport? I have an evo and with the latest tephra mod I can switch between 93 octane and e85 with a simple flip switch mounted on the dash.

[305mouse]

I guess you could have two different ecu's next to each other. One for DD and the other for track events/race fuel, whatever. You could unplug the harness from one and plug into the other. For the cost though an AP V1 would be cheaper.

[Evan78]

With an Accessport, it can piggyback so you can switch maps on the fly and the car will use the Accessport's virtual ECU emulation OR you can actually hard-write the map to the car's ecu so you can unplug the accessport.Sounds to me like you're talking about what the AccessPort documentation refers to as Base Maps and Realtime Maps. Base map is hard-written to the ecu and will stay there even if the battery is disconnected. Realtime maps run on top of the Base Map and will disappear if the battery were disconnected (reverting to the Base Map). Even realtime maps don't require the AccessPort to remain connected to the ECU. You just load the map and can then disconnect the AccessPort. Of course, there's no harm in leaving it connected, but its not necessary.

Some features and tables can't be modified by realtime maps.

Just wanted to add clarification so that nobody thinks the AccessPort ever requires a persistent connection to the ECU. Logging would be the only time you have to leave it connected.

[olpro]

Just how far with tuning, etc. can one go with this 4 cyl. Subaru and still meet California emissions? Or is it a matter of just putting in the highest power STOCK engine that fits?

[StatGSR]

^ i would just reflash to stock for emissions testing....

also, do you know the emissions requirements for Kit Cars in CA? i wouldn't be shocked if they were substantially different.

[Evan78]

Just how far with tuning, etc. can one go with this 4 cyl. Subaru and still meet California emissions? Or is it a matter of just putting in the highest power STOCK engine that fits?There are not a lot of options (CARB approved parts) that keep you within the letter of California emissions law. I've owned a few Subarus, have forgotten much, and not kept up much with things for a few years, but here's what I can recall of the top of my head:

2002-2005 WRX 2.0L TD04 turbo
Stock: 175whp
Tune only: 200whp
Turboback + Tune: 225whp

2.5L STi VF39 turbo
Stock: 230whp
Tune only: don't know
Turboback + Tune: 300whp

2005 Legacy 2.5L VF43 turbo
Turboback + Tune: 260whp, 320wtq

[ICY WRX]

I'm in Alberta canada and cant wait to get one of these 818's. Already have the major donor components sitting in my garage. I've been a subie nut since 2007 and currently daily drive a 2009 WRX (EJ255) w/ VF52 turbo, larger TMIC and 3" catted exhaust and equal length headers with 50/50 mix water meth injection. Running 20lbs of max boost, Putting down 305 WHP and 335 wtq on 94 octane pump gas. Cobb access port PRO tuned by the one and only AIRBOY. If I were to incorporate this setup on the FFR 818, and could get the wheels to stick, the car would be a BULLET. Many options for tuning, but an excellent tuner is worth the extra cost of a AccessPort. Just my .02.

[flynntuna]

I think with an Accessport and the right fuel mods, you can easily switch between a few maps for the different fuel types. You'd just have to make sure you drain the fuel tank. Depending on the type of fuel tank FFR puts on these things, that could end up being a pretty easy task.

I am a firm believer in Opensource although you can't switch maps nearly as easy as an Accessport. Opensource software needs to hard-write to the ECU every time you make a change. With an Accessport, it can piggyback so you can switch maps on the fly and the car will use the Accessport's virtual ECU emulation OR you can actually hard-write the map to the car's ecu so you can unplug the accessport. If you're wanting to switch fuel types and tunes very freqently, pony up for an Accessport. If you are just upgrading the engine components for more power and aren't going to mess with tuning for different fuel types, do Opensource. There's more community support on how to tune with opensource and it's cheap cheap

One still needs to know what their doing right? How much of a learning curve will it take?

[metalmaker12]

Stop worrying about your learning curve, you got us all to help you bro, you will be fine and your car will be great. Get all the parts needed and have at it, research, build, drive.... thats how you learn.

[AJW Performance]

95% of the time we prefer to use open source. That is the method we will be using for 818 kits as well.

[PhyrraM]

I've noticed that us Subaru guys like to 'name drop' making everything seem more confusing that it really is. Instead of 'tune', some say Accessport or open-source. Instead of 'bigger turbo', some say GTA 3453. Instead of saying 'properly sized injectors, we say "FP 880s".

Don't worry, it's all the same stuff you learned working on 5.0s or 350s. All the concepts are the same.

Only the names have been changed to confuse the innocent.

[flynntuna]

Oh, that helps make this clear. It would help to have a thread with definitions . I miss the tidbit of the day.

[wallace18]

What exacly is open source tuning? Is that a software you can buy to tune the WRX ECU? Who sells the cable and such?

[PhyrraM]

What exacly is open source tuning? Is that a software you can buy to tune the WRX ECU? Who sells the cable and such?

Open source tuning is free software that members of the community have developed and distributed. You need to build or buy the proper cable. Google "Tactrix" and "RomRaider".

[longislandwrx]

One consideration regarding open source tuning, I know of several tuners that won't do it. There is no map protection so in the highly competitive world of tuning not all guys want their little secrets out there for all to see.


In my opinion, the Accessport is probably the best option, everyone supports it, and off the shelf maps are plentiful. if you are not near a tuner most places will build you a custom map and email it to you. These off the shelf maps are really good and can make serious power for a fraction of the price of a custom tune.


As mentioned before the AP does support on the fly map switching. When you marry the AP to your ecu you flash a base map, its hard programmed into the ecu's ROM and wont get lost with a battery cable pull. You can only flash this a limited number of times. The AP also has a realtime map which is loaded into the ecu's current memory. This allows you to switch to a race/valet/low boost map at the drop of the hat without even turning the car off. It works really well, and its unlimited.


The new AP also supports data logging and realtime data viewing so you get a lot for the money.

[Oppenheimer]

what do you use to perform this on-the-fly AP map switch? Do you need to have a laptop plugged into it? Can you get a wireless smartphone app? Can you wire up a simple switch on the dash (or hidden switch)?

[StatGSR]

what do you use to perform this on-the-fly AP map switch? Do you need to have a laptop plugged into it? Can you get a wireless smartphone app? Can you wire up a simple switch on the dash (or hidden switch)?

i assume you would use the AP tuner itself...
http://www.cobbtuning.com/AccessPORT-s/70458.htm

[PhyrraM]

I can't imagine that if I'm willing to build my own car, I would be too scared to try and tune it myself - after reading and research.

[Evan78]

Depends on a lot of factors such as if you desire to tune it yourself or not, how much your time is worth, how important the quality of the tune is, etc. I would say the skills involved are vastly different than mechanical fabrication and assembly.

[longislandwrx]

i assume you would use the AP tuner itself...
http://www.cobbtuning.com/AccessPORT-s/70458.htm

correct, you plug the AP into your diag port and choose the option for select realtime map. the AP can then be unplugged.

as Evan78 mentioned, it was Ecutek that had a few options for switching maps without a tuner being plugged in but seems to have fallen out of favor.

it also only worked with early model ecus

http://www.ecutek.com/Products/Features/No-Longer-Promoted/Map-Switching.aspx

[Oppenheimer]

I can't imagine that if I'm willing to build my own car, I would be too scared to try and tune it myself - after reading and research.

Different people have different skills. Lots of guys are totally up for building their own car, but are intimidated by doing any of the electrical work. There are guys with lots of experience rebuilding motors that won't open up an automatic trans.

[Xusia]

Indeed. I'd feel completely comfortable doing any and all electrical work - including wiring my own harness if I had to - but I wouldn't crack open the engine to change the oil (OK, I could probably change the oil, but that's about it!). I used tuning software on motorcycles for years, but not knowing the nuances of the Subaru hardware, and the effect some changes may have, leaves me feeling trepidatious about making certain changes myself.

[BrandonDrums]

Well, I tuned my own car, had a blast and learned a lot. Got addicted to driving around with my laptop plugged in all the time. I've gotten comfortable doing everything outside of the engine and transmission.

But after lots of abuse my rod bearing gave out. Preeeeeettty dang common on these engines with stock rod bearings I have learned. I had a cracked oil feed line for my turbo a couple months back and the damage was done. The engine lasted a few months and gave out. It wasn't the tune, the rod bearing just gave out randomly on a normal drive home from work.

Anyway, us DIY guys have a lot of risk to bare. Who knows what caused my bearing failure but I see it as an opportunity to learn how to rebuild my engine.

My point is, everyone is afraid of things but sometimes if you want to learn something you have to just jump in and be prepared to make some mistakes and treat them as learning opportunities.

Having failed my first engine (one way or another) I am hoping I can pop out with more knowledge so I can keep it from happening again. There's no "professional" tuner/tech/driver who hasn't made big mistakes.

So, jump in if you dare. I reccommend it, it's so much easier being mad at yourself and learning something than being mad at someone you gave money to and learned nothing.

[3000gttom]

i was nervous when i reflashed my 3000gt ecu. mostly because the definition file i made my self and i really have minimal software experience... but im glad i did because now i am the only person on the planet who has files for flashing n/a 3000gt cars and i gained a lot of top end power from it... if the car is being built from the ground up, why not experiment a little and tune it yourself

[Rarytas]

there's one company which i forgot the name of, a vendor on 2.5rs.com that sells pre mapped ECU's with Anti-Lag :o

[longislandwrx]

there's one company which i forgot the name of, a vendor on 2.5rs.com that sells pre mapped ECU's with Anti-Lag :o

IMHO doesn't seem like a good idea on this car though.

[RCKSTR]

Subaru computers are finicky, best bet is to bring it to a tuner and let them deal with it. People open-source tune these for anywhere from $250-500ish. Another route you could take would be the Cobb Accessport but you'd still need to be protuned afterwards, even with just the basic mods it is a safe thing to do. Cobb tends to run their maps a little rich for the "off the shelf maps" since they try to make them for a wide range of "stages"

In New England there are quite a few tuners to talk to, Bren Tuning, Kinetic, Dent Sport are just a few right off the top of my head.

[AJW Performance]

With our kits we will be offering Etunes separate (will include a tactrix cable as we purchased about 500 of them)

Heres how it will work:
List the modifications you have, the motor etc and we will send you a base file.
Load this to the car and then get some logs of how the car behaves.
Send these back and we will be able to tweak it as many times as possible to make it perfect for your car.

Jay Perry, our in house tuner will be able to log into your computer and talk you through this virtually to assist in all tuning aspects of your 818 project!! This is a great option for people who do not have a tuner close to them.

To Customers close to us, we welcome you to come down and get a full blown pro tune at our facility with full rear wheel drive dynomometer.

If you have any specific questions about the Etuning or about Subaru tunes themselves, feel free to ask them here as myself and Jay are watching this thread to help support your tuning needs!
Some more info: http://818donors.com/package-extras/

-Tim

PS- Takes a little know how to do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QuamRhvcAA

[Silvertop]

With our kits we will be offering Etunes separate (will include a tactrix cable as we purchased about 500 of them)

If you have any specific questions about the Etuning or about Subaru tunes themselves, feel free to ask them here as myself and Jay are watching this thread to help support your tuning needs!
Some more info: http://818donors.com/package-extras/

-Tim

PS- Takes a little know how to do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QuamRhvcAA

If I have you guys install a set of cams (and maybe valve springs) into my NA Beta Donor package, would you be able to do an appropriate "ballpark" tune of the ECU before you shipped the pallet to me? Or will I need to get it back in a car first so it can be done really right?

[spaceywilly]

So, maybe we can all learn together and work through this example... my car. I currently have my 02 WRX stored in my sister's garage waiting for some snow to play with. Today I started it up for it's monthly airing out and noticed the CEL was on so I plugged in my tactrix cable to read the code. It turns out the code is just related to the dead battery, it wasn't able to spin the radiator fans up so that freaked out the ECU a bit. That is all well and good, but the tool that I used also read back the FLKC and IAM values and I'm not sure exactly what to make of them. I know enough about the Subaru knock strategy to know that it is detecting knock and pulling timing, but I don't know if these values are really out of whack and if I should do anything about it. Maybe someone who knows more about the ECU could tell me if I should be concerned? The car is stock with an open source reflash.

http://i.imgur.com/npTZQ.jpg

[BrandonDrums]

So, maybe we can all learn together and work through this example... my car. I currently have my 02 WRX stored in my sister's garage waiting for some snow to play with. Today I started it up for it's monthly airing out and noticed the CEL was on so I plugged in my tactrix cable to read the code. It turns out the code is just related to the dead battery, it wasn't able to spin the radiator fans up so that freaked out the ECU a bit. That is all well and good, but the tool that I used also read back the FLKC and IAM values and I'm not sure exactly what to make of them. I know enough about the Subaru knock strategy to know that it is detecting knock and pulling timing, but I don't know if these values are really out of whack and if I should do anything about it. Maybe someone who knows more about the ECU could tell me if I should be concerned? The car is stock with an open source reflash.

http://i.imgur.com/npTZQ.jpg

So that code just means the coolant isn't cooling down as expected when the fans are switched on which for a lack of a more specific diagnosis just indicates how the ECU figured out something is wrong but not what is wrong. Hopefully it is battery related but even with a low battery, the radiator fans will turn fast enough to cool the engine off. From my experience you're more likely to get a fueling related code for a low battery than anything else.

The timing could mean a couple things, you have lots of learned knock correction retard so the tune isn't 100% healthy or the car isn't 100% healthy. Usually you'd just want to see 3 or less cells with -2.11 degrees or less of learned timing retard, no more than wot shifting knock or just some statistical noise. You have far more areas of knock correction than most would like to see but fortunately no big areas of knock correction. There's also the IAM like you mentioned, you're at 15, the max is 16 so the ECU is learning new redundant knock instances to dial out but that's nothing major, with seasons, gasoline quality and whatever else going on, a healthy car switches back and fourth between 15 and 16 to continually learn and revise the fine learning knock correction values needed to always operate without any ping. Genius really.

The AFR trims actually look pretty good for a stage 2 reflash, almost spot on aside from the 2nd cell but it's close enough for jazz.

So, you're on the border here, there could be something factual about that code where the car for whatever reason is running hotter than normal and is getting additional knock sometimes. You were at a coolant temp of 203 degrees which isn't hot, the fans aren't set to come on until 205 degrees on the upswing. If it isn't overheating, it could just be old gas causing some ping. Combine hot weather with stale gas and you'll get a couple more pings than ideal.

Go drive to the gas station to put fresh juice in it. While you're on the way pull up romraider on the dashboard view and log coolant temp knock correction and all the other normal things. If the engine is detecting knock and/or heating up much past 205, then we might want to look into the code a bit more.

[RM1SepEx]

Different people have different skills. Lots of guys are totally up for building their own car, but are intimidated by doing any of the electrical work. There are guys with lots of experience rebuilding motors that won't open up an automatic trans.

I'm totally mechanical, no problem with anything mechanical... tuning my ECU... nope, could I do it, sure, but I have little interest in spending my time doing the research and actual tuning.

I'm buying and installing parts, a tuning shop will be doing my tuning. My quandry... Cobb or open source?

I do have access to a Dynocom 15000 dyno with a huge eddy brake in one of my friend's garage... http://www.dynocom.net/catalog/detail.asp?iPro=106

BTW His projects would make your head spin... early 70's Sonett, Yellow Thunder, http://www.vintagesaab.com/sonett/yt/ytmain.htm, Mitsu 3000 GT with huge turbo upgrade, Saab Viggen with turbo upgrade, 1993 Miata with big turbo, 1993 Mazda RX7TT

[BrandonDrums]

I'm totally mechanical, no problem with anything mechanical... tuning my ECU... nope, could I do it, sure, but I have little interest in spending my time doing the research and actual tuning.

I'm buying and installing parts, a tuning shop will be doing my tuning. My quandry... Cobb or open source?

I do have access to a Dynocom 15000 dyno with a huge eddy brake in one of my friend's garage... http://www.dynocom.net/catalog/detail.asp?iPro=106

BTW His projects would make your head spin... early 70's Sonett, Yellow Thunder, http://www.vintagesaab.com/sonett/yt/ytmain.htm, Mitsu 3000 GT with huge turbo upgrade, Saab Viggen with turbo upgrade, 1993 Miata with big turbo, 1993 Mazda RX7TT

Fortunately, open source tuning has many advantages over cobb and it's free! (aside from the tatrix cable) The main downside is not being able to make changes in real-time, you have to re-flash for every little tweak so the tuning process is MUCH slower than Cobb. Also, Cobb allows you to switch maps on the fly or fully re-flash the engine, opensource does not.

However, you can adjust EVERYTHING with opensource and that goes a long way the more intake and fueling mods you throw at a subaru. Subaru ECU's are known to struggle with making aftermarket induction and fueling parts run as smoothly as stock in closed loop (normal, partial throttle driving). Just look up "hesitation below 3k rpm after tune" on nasioc and you'll find hundreds of threads about it. Opensource has a little bit more access to the factory closed loop tables that make it a bit easier to get the car feeling as close to stock as possible after putting in aftermarket injectors etc.

However, cobb's are pretty neat little devices and for folks wanting to run multiple tunes and be able to switch on the fly etc. they can't really be beat.

As for not wanting to learn how to tune, if you're comfortable rebuilding an engine then you should worry about learning how to tune. I promise that building and blueprinting an engine is more challenging and there's less online expertise and electronic aids to assist in the process compared to learning how to tune. You can probably learn the basics just by driving around with romraider plugged in and learning how to read data logs without even making a single change.