Full Kit/Crate Engine and Transmission or Build it?

[wiesleya]

Hi everyone. This is my first post to the forum as I am in information gathering mode currently planning out a future MKIV build! I have spent a fair amount of time reading up on other posts, but I know I have more reading to do. My question is related to engine “kits” and whether it’s best to buy a complete powertrain with engine, transmission and all of the add-ons like power steering and alternator, or could I save a few bucks by starting with a crate engine and adding the transmission and other components on my own? I have limited automotive experience so taking the easier route is attractive, but I don’t fork over dollars easy!

What I’m thinking is potentially the Blueprint/FFR kit - https://www.factoryfiveengines.com/blueprint-engines-factory-five-engines/blueprint-engines-mk4-roadster-engines/blueprint-engines-ford-347-carbureted-mk4

Or

Blueprint dressed engine and adding all of the other pieces/parts with TKO-600 on my own - https://blueprintengines.com/products/347-ci-stroker-crate-engine-small-block-ford-dressed-longblock-fuel-injection-bp3474ctf

Would a novice be able to add pulleys, belts and other parts to the engine?

[GoDadGo]

Limited Mechanical Ability Is A Wide Open Subject!

Ordering a complete driveline is the only way to go if you've never built an engine before.

The other issue is what skills do you bring to the table because these cars don't just snap together like a plastic model.


What kind of automitive work do you feel comfortable doing at this point in your life?
As an example I feel like I've got limited skills, but the good news is I knew my limits.
In order to successfully build one of these cars you will need to know your limits too.

My first recommendation is to get the manual and read it two or three times and to watch the Factory Assembly Videos too.

[edwardb]

Welcome to the forum. It's certainly not particularly difficult to bolt on various engine pieces. Specifically the front dress, accessories, etc. The challenge is getting the right combination of parts and in the proper locations to clear the installation into the Roadster. If your experience is limited, a turn-key assembly like the one from Blueprint is a low risk choice. Bolting on the flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, transmission, etc. is also relatively straightforward. Fewer part choices there and most are compatible. Probably the single most difficult for those with limited experience is indexing the bell housing (requires a dial indicator and a specific process) which I'm assuming Blueprint does if you buy their package? Good question to ask them since the Tremec warranty requires it to be done. If you buy their package, do they ship it all assembled? Makes a good sized package if it comes that way. Not hard to bolt on the transmission if they don't. If you can build a car, you can do this assembly IMO.

[alexmak]

If you buy their package, do they ship it all assembled? Makes a good sized package if it comes that way. Not hard to bolt on the transmission if they don't. If you can build a car, you can do this assembly IMO.

Yes, BPE's package comes assembled in a large crate, about 800lbs total. makes it very easy to install everything.

[NAZ]

Purchase the "package". There are incompatibility issues that crop up on the forum from time to time where an inexperienced builder is asking for help because something doesn't fit or operate correctly. They get stuck as they have taken the route of procuring individual parts thinking they are going to save $$ only to find they purchased the wrong part.

[nucjd19]

Probably the single most difficult for those with limited experience is indexing the bell housing (requires a dial indicator and a specific process) which I'm assuming Blueprint does if you buy their package? Good question to ask them since the Tremec warranty requires it to be done. IMO. I bought the 347 blue print TKO600 package and asked about indexing the bell housing before I bought and Johnny from FFR Engines said it was done by them on install. Mine should be here next month (shooting for 10/22). Getting excited!

[wiesleya]

Thanks for the honest feedback, GoDadGo. I admit when I first thought about this months ago the concept was daunting, and I was not convinced that I could do it. I have read the entire assembly manual, read at least a few build threads and watched all assembly videos. Having done that I have a level of understanding of the challenges. I realize these just don’t slap together like a lego set, and if I said I wasn’t a bit doubtful I’d be lying. I am excited to get this going at some point next year though!

As for my skills with my hands - my comfort level to date stops at brakes, electronics/electrical and simple mechanical. I have never used a rivet tool or installed an engine or transmission. Plenty of experience with torque wrenches and similar.

[wiesleya]

Let me know how that goes if you could...I have been following your build so I’m sure I’ll see your updates. That’s the exact combo I was looking at actually. After reading up on the forum though and researching Coyote crate engines I may just go that route. Why did you select the BP 347?

[wiesleya]

I think you hit the nail on the head...why risk incompatibility issues to save 4% of the total cost of the car on the most important piece?! Part of me wants to learn all of those aspects of automotive. Perhaps I save that for build number 2!

[FLPBFoot]

Thanks for the honest feedback, GoDadGo. I admit when I first thought about this months ago the concept was daunting, and I was not convinced that I could do it. I have read the entire assembly manual, read at least a few build threads and watched all assembly videos. Having done that I have a level of understanding of the challenges. I realize these just don’t slap together like a lego set, and if I said I wasn’t a bit doubtful I’d be lying. I am excited to get this going at some point next year though!

As for my skills with my hands - my comfort level to date stops at brakes, electronics/electrical and simple mechanical. I have never used a rivet tool or installed an engine or transmission. Plenty of experience with torque wrenches and similar.

You might consider attending a Roadster Build School before you order. I grew up on a Farm and had good mechanical skills but never installed engines. My wife and I attend the build school and gave us the confidence that we could make this happen and do a quality job. Great thing about build school is they show you all the options and talk through what you want in your final car. Also you get to see all the tools needed and use them to build their car. They have tons of tips on assembly order, upgrades, parts vendors, etc. Well worth the time and $ if you have doubts.

Steve

[BradCraig]

I did the math on buying all the components and assembling vs buying turnkey. It was just about a wash when you consider the component costs\shipping\etc so I bought turnkey. I went with Coyote Gen3\TKO from Mike Forte. He also trims down the tail boss and lets you borrow lifting brackets.

[wiesleya]

Steve - The build school is something I would like to do since I believe I can just drive a few hours to MI. My concern is this damn COVID and whether the schools are even happening. I can’t travel for work or vacation so I have time!

[wiesleya]

BradCraig - Good call on Fortes. I have seen a ton of members buying from him. The Coyote kit I saw was from Summit, but flywheel (Billet) is on me to install and the tail boss work would be majorly useful!

[Hoooper]

You can absolutely build it yourself for cheaper, but if you are not well versed in the subject you can also easily end up spending more to build it yourself. The total cost of components in an engine from a builder is nowhere near what it would cost you to buy and install the same parts. I built mine from a short block for about $7k, which a comparable motor from a builder would have run around $12k. But if you arent confident you can do it you can easily cost yourself a huge pile of cash to repair or replace your mistakes.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Buy it in a box. Many of us have built engines from scratch. In my case as a pre-teen helping older teens with their Hot Rods. Building hands on experience over time including 6 years in the Army as a recovery mechanic. I bought the COYOTE in a box to save time & have a no maintenance engine.

Can you do it successfully first time out, yes, but you might find it a lot more work & more costly than it appears to be.

[egchewy79]

depends on what you want to do. I got a partially rebuilt 1966 289 and a donor T5 FREE (well, barter) from a buddy of mine, so the decision was a bit easier. I had very little automotive experience prior to this project, but have learned a TON about pushrod engines that I had no idea about prior to doing this. If you have the time and space to do so, I found this to be a very satisfying part of the process. I feel more confident in the future if I need to replace engine components as well. Lots of great minds out here willing to give helpful advice.

[BradCraig]

Agree with all the above regarding building a SBF. If Coyote, you won't save much (if any) by assembling yourself. I had my Engine\trans unboxed and installed in a couple hours instead of having to worry about 10 trips to the auto parts store or waiting on ordered parts that I forgot or incorrectly ordered.

[FF33rod]

Some pretty sound advice so far. I read you're also concerned about $$. Having bought and assembled various components to build up my drive train package, I now firmly believe that it is extremely tough to beat Blueprint's package price. I wasn't trying to save $$, thankfully, I just wanted to say I did it. But buying individual components retail is expensive!!!

Also, +1 on going to build school. It really helped to build the confidence that I could do this.

Enjoy!
Steve

[wiesleya]

Steve - I think I’m in on the engine/powertrain as a package. As much as I’d like to learn engines through the install/build process likely not a good idea on my first build! The Forte 5.0 Coyote complete kit will likely be my route. I checked the build schools and they are still going. December may work.

[GoDadGo]

The Forte 5.0 Coyote complete kit will likely be my route. I checked the build schools and they are still going. December may work.

The Coyote is a great choice for modern power and to be quite frank, is way over my head; however, many builders say it is a plug and play system.
With that said, when you get a chance check out Edwardb's (Mr. Paul B.) last MK-4 build thread.

MK-4 Coyote Build Thread:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?18591-EdwardB%92s-Mk4-8674-20th-Anniversary-Build

Autoblog Video Done On Paul & His Red Roadster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCBLH-mr7ME&t=6s

His work is phenomenal and his build threads always supplement the heck out of the manual.
If he gives you any suggestions or advice, take it because he is truly an O.C.D. Master Hobbyist Award Winning Builder.

[CraigS]

I think NAZ has the answer for you w/ his incompatibility comment. I have worked on cars all my life. I had my 351 partially apart several times which was actually good in that it was the first American V8 I'd ever worked on. I decided to go to a 408 and needed a TON of research just to build the short block. As an exercise for you, take one or two common parts and research which you would use for a 1991 302 (I picked this as a popular example). Try a cam and/or a flywheel. I use an engine for this example because here is an area where an incompatible part can be catastrophic and a very expensive to re-do. The rest of the car is way different. There is almost nothing that can't be re-done relatively easily. Hanging out here you will see many, many comments where guys say something to the effect that w/ all the re-dos it's like they built 2 cars but ended up w/ just one. Fortunately usually it's just time that they lost.

[wiesleya]

I think NAZ has the answer for you w/ his incompatibility comment. I have worked on cars all my life. I had my 351 partially apart several times which was actually good in that it was the first American V8 I'd ever worked on. I decided to go to a 408 and needed a TON of research just to build the short block. As an exercise for you, take one or two common parts and research which you would use for a 1991 302 (I picked this as a popular example). Try a cam and/or a flywheel. I use an engine for this example because here is an area where an incompatible part can be catastrophic and a very expensive to re-do. The rest of the car is way different. There is almost nothing that can't be re-done relatively easily. Hanging out here you will see many, many comments where guys say something to the effect that w/ all the re-dos it's like they built 2 cars but ended up w/ just one. Fortunately usually it's just time that they lost.

CraigS - I did just as you explained and that's a big part of why I think a fully kitted/dressed powertrain is the way to go for me. I was researching a 347 and started with Blueprint. I then found the clutch, bell housing, transmission. fly wheel, etc. The list was about 12 parts and I'm sure I didn't have something right so the savings of roughly $1,500 I calculated just isn't worth it.

[nucjd19]

For me it was a path of least resistance process to go with the 347 TKO combo from blueprint. I have worked on tractor and Toyota fj engines/ clutches and drivetrains. My experience with ford engines are very limited. While I feel confident I would get there at the end the juice is not worth the squeeze for me as I will have my hands full with multiple other systems coming up. The power plant is the last thing I want to worry about at this point. Down the road will be a different story but I know there are some hills I am not willing to die on at this point.

[ThreeSpore]

100% agree with a crate approach. From an old engine builder like me who would always jump at the opportunity to build, this time around the ease vs cost was just too good to pass up. Plus I am usually building engines OR concentrating on car updates, when you mix both you naturally elongate your time. The itch to get on the road once you turning that first nut is obsessive, and with the large amount of work done by blueprint or forte or similar to make this all plug and play, I just could not justify the custom build. You are going to spend countless hours making this car yours and yours alone with the little tweaks and build directions - the idea you can receive, drop and start you engine with a day or two of pretty easy work was all I needed to pull the trigger on my 347. Plus the Blueprint warranty is pretty outstanding, Gasn make customer headers for it, hell, its even got little stickers telling me what to plug in where - you can't beat that :D

Good luck on your decision, in the end it will be the right one for you!

[BluePrintEngines]

I don't always catch these threads, but glad I saw this one. I have built many engines by hand, of all makes, and I'm famous for telling people "you can't buy all this stuff new, and set it on the ground in a pile, for what we sell you the complete, Dyno tested, warrantied, package for" the time savings in astronomical when it comes to the assembly, and fitment, of one of our "crate" engine/transmission packages

I have a pretty long post in the linked thread below, with observations from selling about 400 engine/trans packages specifically to FFR owners.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?36663-What-would-you-do-differently&p=423628&viewfull=1#post423628


The BIGGEST regrets, and in field issues both, come from customers that just bought a base crate engine, and then try to do their own research and assembly. You wouldn't believe the nightmares i have seen that cause.

If you've built 3 of these cars, or are a master mechanic, great. Yes, you can probably nickel and dime it together, with a lot less flash, and/or used parts, and do all your own assembly, and save a few bucks. But for a first timer, or someone without a ton of experience...it's a kit car...believe me you'll get to "fabricate" and figure out plenty.... don't make the engine/package one of those steep learning curves.

happy to answer ANY questions along the way, before purchase, during install, after, etc. gimme a yell anytime.

Johnny McDevitt
Director of New Project Development
www.BluePrintEngines.com
www.FactoryFiveEngines.com
308-236-1010 (Direct)
1-800-483-4263 Ex 1010

[Avalanche325]

Only assemble your own engine if it is something that you actually want to do. There are some specialty tools that you will need, and likely never use again. So that cuts a little bit into the cost savings. You also want to go with a known good combination of parts. This is not the place to guess. I did a DIY kit from FordStrokers and really enjoyed it.

There is nothing hard about it. But there is room for mistakes if you are not meticulous.

[mark jones]

with my searching towards putting together a price that I can afford to build one of these kits I found Eastwood has a fuel injected 302 with 300 hp for $5k and Summit or CJPony parts has a 6 speed auto trans for $1500 Im planning to go with a automatic trans. Although I have driven a stick for many years, with the hp.autotrans why not?

[Avalanche325]

with the hp.autotrans why not?

Because it's a Cobra????

Just kidding. Shelby loved automatics. If it's your thing.....its your car.

[EbourqueIII]

Be honest with yourself, What are you looking for? Are you looking for the end product, a car to drive for cruise night and car shows? How fast do you want to complete the Build(this was not important to Me)? Are you looking for the Journey that gets you there? In my case I enjoyed/ enjoy the build more than driving it. My Car is never finished, I am always working on ways to improve Her, as a matter of fact she is going through a complete suspension upgrade now. The only thing I did not do myself was shorten the drive shaft (this was one of the reasons I decided to build a complete car). your mechanical experience and the equipment/tools that you have access to will limit what you can accomplish, but then again you can always learn (the internet is full of good and bad advice) and purchase new tools and machinery.

[ggunter]

Building your own engine is something I've done all my life for any automotive or marine project I've ever done. It's what I love to do and the pride in doing something yourself is always worth a lot, however I went with the Blueprint 347 engine trans combo for two reasons. 1. It is absolutely complete, including setting up the clutch bearing, cutting off the case stub under the tail shaft. All the front components are there, starter, etc. You don't have to hunt down all these extra parts hoping you got the right year and it fits or doesn't. 30 month warranty. Dyno'd, broke in, and 2. The time factor of just how long it takes to do and engine yourself. I just put mine in two weeks ago, primed the fuel and the oil hit the key and it was a thing of beauty. It fired and sang like a song bird. Yes it's pricey but when you take out the aggravation factor of locating parts, time it takes to get things back from a machine shop and time to build it was a no brainer for me because I wanted to build this car fairly quickly. I picked my car up August 20th and other than some dash wiring I will finish this week its ready to go kart. If I was building an engine for this project I would still be building it.

[erstanl]

So I built my own 408. Just putting the short block together is a ton of work, and you'd need a bunch of precision tools to get it right. For reference, it took me a year to get the engine together. It only has a few hours on it now and runs really sweet, but boy was that a lot of work. I think I tore it apart 100 times just to check and recheck things. I enjoyed it, but wow. Had I bought an engine package, I'd be done today and in paint. I agree with others, that a crate engine would be a wash, or cheaper than what I did. Lots of details in that for sure, but if someone says they want to build their own engine and asks my opinion, id steer them to a crate engine.

Retail is expensive when it comes to putting an engine together from scratch. Amazing fun to work with clean new parts, but it all needs tweaked and massaged to work properly. It may bolt together, but you will regret it when a bunch of your hard work becomes scrap. Your mileage may vary!