Cooling Question on a Coyote first start ...

[mlewis]

All,

Per my separate post, I celebrated my first start of my Coyote (Gen 2) this past weekend. Very cool. However speaking of cool …

After a couple of short runs it came up to temperature (seemed to level off at about 80 but did not run more that 5 mins at a time) and the fan came on. All seemed good, however feeling all the hoses and the radiator all the top hoses (using the Moroso overflow) and the top/PS side of the radiator were all hot, however the lower/DS side of the radiator and the lower return hose remained cold.

After a couple runs, I noted the check engine light was on. I check the code; P0116 (engine cooling, temperature circuit range performance).

Do I have a stuck thermostat issue ?

Anybody experience the same on the Coyote first start ?

As usual, many thinks !!

[nuhale]

I don't know how you would have a stuck thermostat if you only got it to around 80C. I don't think the stat opens until close to 90C. My gen 2 takes well over 5min to get up to temp. Just throwing out an idea but can this be a bad wiring to the fan? Are you using the orange fan control from the computer? That clicks on at 78C. Do you have expansion tank? Wondering if you have some air in the system that needs to burp.

Separate topic but rode with another builder and his fan was driving me bananas (him too). Went with Bradley's fan controller solution and set it at 90C. I've been on the road for 3 days and its' been perfect. Never hear it. Highly recommend the mod before the body goes on.

[mlewis]

Thanks. Thought the same thing. I used the Moroso overflow tank and mimicked the routing on a stock coyote.

Yup, orange wire from the Coyote harness. It looked like the fan came on around 70C ish.

[edwardb]

With the Moroso tank and the Mustang plumbing, you don't need to worry about burping the tank or air in the system. It will do that by itself. After a few runs at temperature, check the level in the tank. It will go down as air escapes from the system. Likely you'll need to add a little a couple times then that should be it.

For your other question -- you're not running long enough to open the thermostat and get coolant running through the lower radiator hose. If you're just sitting there idling, it's going to take more than 5 minutes. Kind of a pain because the PCM turns the Gen 2 fan on at a low temp which works against you. Well before the thermostat opens. The stock thermostat is 195 F (about 90 C). With the location of the aftermarket temp sensor, it also lags behind the actual engine temp some because it doesn't see a good flow of coolant until the thermostat opens. Can't say for sure about the DTC. I'd clear it and see if it happens again. I personally haven't seen that one.

I too added the Maradyne MFA136 PWM fan controller this past winter after driving three seasons with the fan nearly always running. Technically doesn't hurt anything. But nice it only runs when actually needed. FWIW, Ford changed back to a more normal setting on the Gen 3.

[mlewis]

Thanks Paul. I will let it run longer/hotter and see if it opens. I'm confused about the DTC as well. I did clear it and it returned following a subsequent run.

I also saw a little coolant weeping out of the heater bypass connects. I was getting worried that some pressure may have been building ?

I checked the Moroso tank and it did not drop much

I will try to run it longer (this weekend).

I'll have to look into a fan controller

[edwardb]

I also saw a little coolant weeping out of the heater bypass connects. I was getting worried that some pressure may have been building?

There's pressure in the system, so doubt that's a problem. If you have the Coyote completion kit from Factory Five they have unfortunately been supplying imported knock-off connectors. I had to replace mine on my Coupe build because they were leaking. Several others have reported the same thing. You want genuine branded Gates 28504 heater hose connectors. Have gotten them on Amazon and also Rock Auto.

[GTBradley]

I’ve noticed that the radiator tends to be hot only in the upper right side when idling. It cools very effectively by the time it makes it to the lower left side where it exits.

[mlewis]

If you have the Coyote completion kit from Factory Five they have unfortunately been supplying imported knock-off connectors

Yup.


You want genuine branded Gates 28504 heater hose connectors

Ordered and on the way … Thanks !!

[wareaglescott]

In reference to your P0116 code how long have you had the pcm on hand?

There was an issue with that code a couple years ago that required a PCM reprogram. If you have had yours on hand for a while you may need the same. Me and Paul both dealt with that. It is mentioned in post 258 of my build thread. The build thread is linked below in my signature.

[lewma]

I too added the Maradyne MFA136 PWM fan controller this past winter after driving three seasons with the fan nearly always running.

Paul, can you give more details on what you added and how that fan controller works ? I have a Lund Tune on my Coyote Gen2 and I asked them to raise the fan-on temperature. Fan comes on when the engine reaches 190deg. Sometimes it goes off again but not if I'm sitting in typical CA traffic.

mark

[edwardb]

Paul, can you give more details on what you added and how that fan controller works ? I have a Lund Tune on my Coyote Gen2 and I asked them to raise the fan-on temperature. Fan comes on when the engine reaches 190deg. Sometimes it goes off again but not if I'm sitting in typical CA traffic.

mark

The controller wasn't my idea. But when posted decided to go for it. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?34158-Two-stage-cooling-fan-controller-for-Gen-2-Coyote-5-0L. I jumped in at post #14 after wiring one into my Gen 2 Coyote 20th Anniversary Roadster. The controller sits between the Coyote cooling fan wire and the fan itself. So even when the PCM calls for the fan (using the very conservative settings programmed by Ford Performance) the fan doesn't turn on unless the controller reads the temperature you set it at. Then when it does run, usually runs at a lower speed which is much quieter. Only goes to full speed if necessary. Another option would be to not use the Coyote cooling fan wire at all and just go from the battery through the Maradyne controller and then to the fan. But since my Roadster was already done and wired, didn't pursue that option. Not sure I would anyway.

I've heard of others asking Lund to adjust the fan on setting. Some reports that they didn't want to change it. Others that even though they supposedly changed it, didn't make a difference. Sounds like it's more than just a single table setting in the PCM. The Maradyne controller is perhaps overkill and maybe shouldn't be necessary. But I've driven with it this season and works exactly as advertised. And just to repeat so there's no confusion, this is only a Gen 2 thing. I'm approaching 1,200 miles in my Gen 3 Coupe with the Gen 3 Coyote. The Coyote PCM only calls for the fan when it's really needed. No need to do anything else with the Gen 3 Coyote.

[lewma]

What temperature did you program into that Maradyne controller ?

[JohnK]

Another option would be to not use the Coyote cooling fan wire at all and just go from the battery through the Maradyne controller and then to the fan. But since my Roadster was already done and wired, didn't pursue that option. Not sure I would anyway.

I've been pondering this for a while now. If I understand correctly, you're saying that if you were building another car with a Gen 2 coyote and not trying to retrofit the Maradyne, you'd probably still run it off the coyote cooling fan wire? I'm torn on this, and would love to hear your reasoning. Running the Maradyne directly off the battery has one immediate advantage - it allows the fan to run for a minute after engine off, which you lose if running it off the coyote fan trigger. Not sure how big a deal this is, but my DD does this so I'm assuming there's some benefit to it. The implication of running the Maradyne off the coyote fan trigger wire is that the fan will not come on at any speed unless/until both the coyote PCM and the temperature sensor in the coolant flow both call for cooling. Purely from a KISS standpoint I'm not sure I see the benefit of two criteria having to be met to turn on the fan when one will do the job and eliminate one potential source of failure. Thoughts?

Thanks,
John

[edwardb]

What temperature did you program into that Maradyne controller ?

Around 90 C. It's set with a small potentiometer on the controller. It's kind of sensitive but was able to get it turning on and off where I wanted it. There are indicator LED's on the controller to let you know what it's doing.


I've been pondering this for a while now. If I understand correctly, you're saying that if you were building another car with a Gen 2 coyote and not trying to retrofit the Maradyne, you'd probably still run it off the coyote cooling fan wire? I'm torn on this, and would love to hear your reasoning. Running the Maradyne directly off the battery has one immediate advantage - it allows the fan to run for a minute after engine off, which you lose if running it off the coyote fan trigger. Not sure how big a deal this is, but my DD does this so I'm assuming there's some benefit to it. The implication of running the Maradyne off the coyote fan trigger wire is that the fan will not come on at any speed unless/until both the coyote PCM and the temperature sensor in the coolant flow both call for cooling. Purely from a KISS standpoint I'm not sure I see the benefit of two criteria having to be met to turn on the fan when one will do the job and eliminate one potential source of failure. Thoughts?

Thanks,
John

First, I don't see any particular advantage of running the fan after the engine is turned off. Without the coolant circulating not sure I see the point. Even though I realize some DD's are set up this way. Add to that the Coyote is a relatively cool running engine. In four plus seasons between the two I've had, zero hint of any overheating. For the other point, seems like you may have misunderstood what I meant. Or I wasn't clear. Or I misunderstood your question. Stated again -- since the Gen 2 control pack is programmed to run the cooling fan almost continuously, and at least from what I've heard isn't recommended or easy to change in the tune calibration, an argument could be made to just skip the Coyote cooling fan wire and run the fan with the Maradyne controller only. Basically as any non-Coyote setup like with a carb'd SBF or whatever. The Coyote PCM setup has proven to be very reliable, so I'm not too concerned about it failing, e.g. being a second point of failure. It's kind of an academic discussion, at least for me, since I don't expect to be doing any more Gen 2 Coyote builds. And to be honest haven't given it tons of thought. But I'd still lean toward leaving the Coyote PCM in the circuit. Pluses and minuses both ways I guess.

[lewma]

Thanks Paul, I ordered the components from Amazon today. I'm going to do the first oil change in the next couple of weeks so I may as well get this all installed too while the car is up on the jacks.

[mlewis]

n reference to your P0116 code how long have you had the pcm on hand?

There was an issue with that code a couple years ago that required a PCM reprogram. If you have had yours on hand for a while you may need the same. Me and Paul both dealt with that. It is mentioned in post 258 of my build thread. The build thread is linked below in my signature.

thanks Scott for the reminder (I remember reading when studying your build thread a while back).

My Gen 2 was fab'd in mid '17 (assuming the PCM was build about the some time ?). Could be the same issue ? Perhaps I need to give Ford P. a call ?

Mark

[GTBradley]

I've been pondering this for a while now. If I understand correctly, you're saying that if you were building another car with a Gen 2 coyote and not trying to retrofit the Maradyne, you'd probably still run it off the coyote cooling fan wire? I'm torn on this, and would love to hear your reasoning. Running the Maradyne directly off the battery has one immediate advantage - it allows the fan to run for a minute after engine off, which you lose if running it off the coyote fan trigger. Not sure how big a deal this is, but my DD does this so I'm assuming there's some benefit to it. The implication of running the Maradyne off the coyote fan trigger wire is that the fan will not come on at any speed unless/until both the coyote PCM and the temperature sensor in the coolant flow both call for cooling. Purely from a KISS standpoint I'm not sure I see the benefit of two criteria having to be met to turn on the fan when one will do the job and eliminate one potential source of failure. Thoughts?

Thanks,
John
Hi John, I totally agree with your KISS point, but there were two reasons I powered the PWM from the orange fan controller wire rather than the battery. First, I didn’t want my fan running after shut down as it would sound like a modern car and use the battery for no apparent gain. Second, and more importantly, I was lazy and didn’t want to do the extra work of dead ending the Coyote wire and running new power. I read that there may be less overflow to the overflow tank if the radiator is cooled down more, but I haven’t experienced a problem with that. Also, I don't see the Coyote controller as a weak link in the power chain, plus if it did fail, it would be a very easy fix to cut the orange wire and connect it straight to the battery, even as a roadside repair. Of course, if you don't have a forward battery mod you’d need to go to something else.

Bradley

[wrenchhead]

Hi Mark,

I had the same issue with the P0116 on the GEN II Coyote. Ford Racing had to reprogram the PCM. I have done it couple of months ago. BTW- I am from the next town in Westford. PM me if you have any questions.

Regards,

Yigal

[JohnK]

Paul and Bradley - thank you both very much. Makes perfect sense.

-John

[mlewis]

I had the same issue with the P0116 on the GEN II Coyote. Ford Racing had to reprogram the PCM. I have done it couple of months ago. BTW- I am from the next town in Westford. PM me if you have any questions.

Hi Yigal, did you have to send the PCM back or did they could send you a hand held tuner as with Scott ?

I will definitely PM you on a couple other Q's (like a local painter ?) .

[wrenchhead]

Hi Mark,

I had to send the PCM to Ford Racing. I decided to do the Lund Tune right after. I'm currently driving in a gel coat and painting will take place this winter.

Regards,

Yigal

[wareaglescott]

Hi Yigal, did you have to send the PCM back or did they could send you a hand held tuner as with Scott ?

I will definitely PM you on a couple other Q's (like a local painter ?) .

Paul and I were kinda buddies with the Ford Performance guy so he did us a favor sending it to me and then I sent it to Paul. I think shortly after that they stated they would not send them out anymore.