RaceTCS out of Poland?

[beeman]

Has anyone heard of this? I ran across it looking for a used RaceLogics TCS. Looks like all the testing has been done on 4cyl and 6cyl vehicles, but it looks promising. Think it would work on a V8 LSx?

http://www.racetcs.com/

[beeman]

Here's the manual.
http://www.racetcs.com/files/RaceTCS%20V2%20User%20manual.pdf
Looks like 8 cyl of control.
133020
Wiring looks simple.

[Shoeless]

I have not heard of them, but I do see InjIn1-8 an InOut1-8, so that would lend me to believe this would work on a V8. I tried looking into the wheel speed sensors that are applicable and VRs are covered in several sections, but it mentions the ABS systems. I'd have to really spend some time reading and understanding the system to give a 100% thumbs up.

They do seem to have a decent following on FaceBook.

[beeman]

The whole abs issue threw me for a loop as well, but I think they were just talking about tying into the wheel sensor (ie twisted pairs) wires and those would be easiest to find where they tie into the abs brain? Probably somewhat lost in translation?

[beeman]

Here's an rx8 without abs running the module.
https://m.facebook.com/RaceTCS/photos/a.924557704574753/1004055033291686/?type=3&source=48

[autostang]

If I'm looking at the exchange rate correctly its less then $400. That seems pretty inexpensive if it works.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Looks to me like it functions almost exactly like the RaceLogic system...but is a more basic version without the fancy LCD display and programmable settings.

[beeman]

About $475 shipped to US.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

If it works as seamlessly and effectively as the RaceLogic system, $475 would be a serious bargain.

[realityisnt]

I have purchased one, and am in the process of installing it into my GTMv2
Im running an LS3. Im currently finishing setting up my ProShift Shifter and will wire in the RaceTCS unit.
I will update this thread with pictures once I am finished, either this weekend or next.
I can only work on my car on the weekends

[realityisnt]

So I have wired up my RaceTCS, my car is not ready for a go cart ride as of yet, still working out my shifter.
Its a simple install, trace back the injector ground, the colored wire, put the RaceTCS in between, you're good.
It will intercept the ECU signals and either pass them on or cut an injector for a few milliseconds
Just like the RaceLogic System, even has a potentiometer to select the amount of slip

[beeman]

Thanks for the update. Here are the racetcs requirements, I know that (a.) is met, what about the remaining 3?



1. Requirements
In order for RaceTCS to be safe for engine, some requirements need to be met first:
a. Sequential Fuel Injection (or injection once per 2 crank revs). RaceTCS does not
support Direct Injection
b. High impedance fuel injectors
c. The car has no misfire detection (or has it disabled). If misfire detection is active and
RaceTCS is connected, Check Engine Light can pop up and indicate damaged ignition
coil.
d. Injectors are not PWM controlled

[realityisnt]

I updated the injectors from the stock to 60lb injectors. not sure if they are high impedance ones but have not had problems.
As for misfires, i have none, check engine light does not come on
and the injectors are not PWM
The ground wire is what the ECU uses to modulate the injectors by connecting it when required.
the power wire is always active, thus why the RaceTCS works by intercepting the grounding of the injectors by the ECU then either passing that signal on to the injectors if below a set RPM or sending its own if required.

In my testing so far I have had Zero problems running my LS3 with the RaceTCS connected

[beeman]

Thanks again for the follow up on this. Are you driving the car yet? Have you tried to induce wheel spin?

[realityisnt]

i have run through the gears with wheel spin, it is not on the road yet
i am going to do an initial alignment this weekend but I have run through all of the gears multiple times with no problems

[ChrisGvmd]

I just purchase the Race TCS from Poland. Hopefully it will be here in a week or two. Are there any tricks to getting it installed or was it pretty straightforward?

[dlud]

I just purchase the Race TCS from Poland. Hopefully it will be here in a week or two. Are there any tricks to getting it installed or was it pretty straightforward?

I am interested in knowing exactly how the C5 wheel sensors are connected to this unit. If it is straightforward I would be interested in buying.

[dlud]

Is it only necessary to connect the wheel sensors for the rear wheels?

[beeman]

Not wiring the front sensors would defeat the purpose of the unit, which basically limits the rear tire slip (in a rwd car) relative to the front tire rotation as the reference speed. See bottom of pg 6 in the pdf manual I linked above. Then when you configure the unit per pg 9, you will input your tire sizes on all 4 corners so that the slip % is accurate. VSS is on the driven axle so it won't work as a reference either.
You would need a GPS referenced unit to only have to wire the rear hub sensors.

[Shoeless]

To piggy back on what beeman said, when I was doing some research on traction control, I made the mistake of thinking GPS reference speed would be a good idea. In theory, maybe yes, but in reality no. It has to do with the speed the GPS antenna feeds the speed signal at, its way to slow to keep up with near instantaneous wheel slip.

[dlud]

Not wiring the front sensors would defeat the purpose of the unit, which basically limits the rear tire slip (in a rwd car) relative to the front tire rotation as the reference speed. See bottom of pg 6 in the pdf manual I linked above. Then when you configure the unit per pg 9, you will input your tire sizes on all 4 corners so that the slip % is accurate. VSS is on the driven axle so it won't work as a reference either.
You would need a GPS referenced unit to only have to wire the rear hub sensors.

Makes sense. So do the C5 wheel sensors work with this? I recall a discussion relating to the RaceLogic system indicating that there were two different modules depending on the type of wheel sensor used.

[Shoeless]

Makes sense. So do the C5 wheel sensors work with this? I recall a discussion relating to the RaceLogic system indicating that there were two different modules depending on the type of wheel sensor used.

I suggest you take a moment and read the manual that Beeman shared in Post #5 above.

[dlud]

I suggest you take a moment and read the manual that Beeman shared in Post #5 above.

Thanks for the suggestion, however, I did download the manual some time ago and read through it several times and thus my questions. Not to worry, I have had excellent communication with RaceTCS and they clarified the wiring and the type of speed sensors used.

[Shoeless]

Thanks for the suggestion, however, I did download the manual some time ago and read through it several times and thus my questions. Not to worry, I have had excellent communication with RaceTCS and they clarified the wiring and the type of speed sensors used.

No worries :cool: it will be nice to get some feedback on a "new to the GTM guys" traction control system.

[beeman]

Thanks for the suggestion, however, I did download the manual some time ago and read through it several times and thus my questions. Not to worry, I have had excellent communication with RaceTCS and they clarified the wiring and the type of speed sensors used.

Please share what you learn. I asked them about a group buy and it was a minimal discount, maybe 5%. I was surprised.

[Apexspeedtech]

To piggy back on what beeman said, when I was doing some research on traction control, I made the mistake of thinking GPS reference speed would be a good idea. In theory, maybe yes, but in reality no. It has to do with the speed the GPS antenna feeds the speed signal at, its way to slow to keep up with near instantaneous wheel slip.

Yep, you fundamentally can't do traction control with GPS, even on the high end there's approximately 100ms latency which I've never been able to tune around.

[ChrisGvmd]

Thanks for the suggestion, however, I did download the manual some time ago and read through it several times and thus my questions. Not to worry, I have had excellent communication with RaceTCS and they clarified the wiring and the type of speed sensors used.

I also read through the manual a few times and was unsure about the same thing. Can you share what they mentioned about the wiring and wheel speed sensors used on the C5 hubs? I should be receiving my unit next week and will try to get it set up soon. They just sealed the road in front of my house, so now it's extremely slick. I'd love to see how this deals with it.

I was also reading a lot about the GPS systems and it just didn't seem like it would be quick enough. I appreciate hearing everybody's thoughts on that too.

[dlud]

Here is the response I received from RaceTCS: "Ah, ok if you are not using C5 ABS pump, then no need to worry. There was a glitch with C5 ABS , it was very sensitive to interference , when RaceTCS was also reading wheel speed sensor signal it detected sensor malfunction. I believe C5 uses VR wheel sensors. This means you connect sensor with twisted pair cable, one wire is grounded to the same grounding point as RaceTCS, the other wire goes to wheel speed input in RaceTCS. Very simple scenario.
in the manual you should look at page 5 , RaceTCS connection without ABS
VR sensor is the one of interest for you"

[ChrisGvmd]

That is really helpful. Thanks. I'm going to work on in next week and I'll let you know how it goes.

[dlud]

That is really helpful. Thanks. I'm going to work on in next week and I'll let you know how it goes.

I'm very interested: my order is on the way.

[ChrisGvmd]

Hi All,

I have been working on installing the Race TCS system and so far it seems pretty simple. There have just been a couple of delays because I wanted to use shielded cable and also was trying to figure out the best way to connect the injector wire to the TCS system. I went with 4 pair cable (8 wires), and routed one cable for the odd injectors and one cable for the even injectors. So I had to order the correct cable and was just waiting. Then I realized I ran out of connectors that I wanted to use on the wheel speed sensors so I had to order more. It's always something. Anyway I just wanted to provide an update and will hopefully have everything done by this weekend. I imagine if anyone is thinking of doing this, if you had all of the supplies, it shouldn't take more than a day to complete. It's pretty simple. I'll follow up with some pictures when I'm done and the guys at Race TCS have been very helpful.

[dlud]

I used 8 pin Deutsch connectors for the injector wires. I lengthened the wires coming out of the pcm and put in one pair of connectors. I then made a short set of wires with connectors coming out of the RaceTCS ecu. My idea was to allow for an easy way to remove the RaceTCS unit if it didn't work out/needed to be pulled for repair or if for some reason I wanted to remove it (sale of car?). Of course it meant al lot of crimping of those small pins. 137908

[ChrisGvmd]

How did you hook up the wheel speed sensors? Did you just do 1 wire to ground and 1 wire to the TCS module? Does it matter which wire?

[dlud]

How did you hook up the wheel speed sensors? Did you just do 1 wire to ground and 1 wire to the TCS module? Does it matter which wire?

That is my understanding from the manual: one wire to ground, the other to the RaceTCS ecu. Based on everything I have read it doesn't matter which wire. Once I test it out I'll know if my understandings are correct. Fingers crossed.

[Shoeless]

Variable Reluctor sensors have a signal positive and signal negative and it is critical they are hooked up correctly. Especially if VR are used for engine position, but who knows the extent of issues they could introduce into a traction control unit. I guess I'd have to see how the unit interprets this signal and what it does with it in its logic.

These types of sensors output a sinusoidal wave type form signal and can really only be checked with an oscilloscope to see that the sine wave is increasing through negative into a positive direction as a toothed wheel (yea I know even harder as these VR sensors are built into the hubs and no teeth are available) approaches and then drops very sharply through zero and becomes negative exactly as the center of the tooth passes the sensor and the tooth is moving away.

BTW I'm in the same boat on my side hoping I hooked them up correctly to feed into my AEM Infinity ECU so that my traction control works as intended as well. I may pick up a pico scope that will give me some basic functions to ensure I have things like this installed correctly on my set up.

[Shoeless]

Oh I almost forgot, and figured id add a new comment just in case, to make matters even more fun, my ZR1 hubs female plug and the metri pack male mating plug both have stamped “A” and “B” on them for wire IDs, but they are opposite of each other when you plug it together.

[dlud]

Variable Reluctor sensors have a signal positive and signal negative and it is critical they are hooked up correctly. Especially if VR are used for engine position, but who knows the extent of issues they could introduce into a traction control unit. I guess I'd have to see how the unit interprets this signal and what it does with it in its logic.

These types of sensors output a sinusoidal wave type form signal and can really only be checked with an oscilloscope to see that the sine wave is increasing through negative into a positive direction as a toothed wheel (yea I know even harder as these VR sensors are built into the hubs and no teeth are available) approaches and then drops very sharply through zero and becomes negative exactly as the center of the tooth passes the sensor and the tooth is moving away.

BTW I'm in the same boat on my side hoping I hooked them up correctly to feed into my AEM Infinity ECU so that my traction control works as intended as well. I may pick up a pico scope that will give me some basic functions to ensure I have things like this installed correctly on my set up.

That's really good to know. Fortunately, I ran both wires for each sensor all the way to the RaceTCS ecu so it will be possible to switch the wires from to ground to ecu if necessary. The RaceTCS software has a logging function so it will be possible to see how the ecu is reading the sensors.

[dlud]

Here is the response I received from RaceTCS to the question of whether it matters which wire from the wheel sensor is used as ground:

"Hello,it does not. Vr sensor produces a sine wave, so whichever wire is ground (reference) the other will have a sine signal.VR sensor is basically a copper coil on a magnet, so there is no difference really internally."

[crash]

Oh I almost forgot, and figured id add a new comment just in case, to make matters even more fun, my ZR1 hubs female plug and the metri pack male mating plug both have stamped “A” and “B” on them for wire IDs, but they are opposite of each other when you plug it together.

Be careful with the ZR1 hubs. As I have been telling people for years, it is my understanding that the ZR1 hubs are "active sensor" hubs and the wires are clearly differently marked as compared to the standard C5 hubs. We messed with them a little but never managed to use them effectively and since the new ZL1 hubs are much beefier, we have transitioned over to those with external sensors.

[Shoeless]

Be careful with the ZR1 hubs. As I have been telling people for years, it is my understanding that the ZR1 hubs are "active sensor" hubs and the wires are clearly differently marked as compared to the standard C5 hubs. We messed with them a little but never managed to use them effectively and since the new ZL1 hubs are much beefier, we have transitioned over to those with external sensors.

Great input here on this, I hadn't seen this warning in the past. I found a nice little o-scope on amazon that should at least help point me in the right direction. For the price of it, its probably not the most accurate piece of equipment out there, but should be able to be used to see if the output signal from the ZR1 hubs is correct polarity wise.

I've also got the newer CTSV alternator so I'll need to check that I'm sending the proper signal to it so that it is turned on and outputting the proper voltage.

[Shoeless]

Here is the response I received from RaceTCS to the question of whether it matters which wire from the wheel sensor is used as ground:

"Hello,it does not. Vr sensor produces a sine wave, so whichever wire is ground (reference) the other will have a sine signal.VR sensor is basically a copper coil on a magnet, so there is no difference really internally."

Perfect, and I think I have come to the same conclusion this evening on my hubs too and figured I would share.

Also noting, I have the 30 spline SKF black anodized hubs. Maybe I did pick up on Crash's warning in the past when I started searching this and bought mine years ago. I normally document my larger purchases better than I did here.

I got to play with my new little bench o'scope this evening after testing my new config files on my Infinitybox. I hooked up both "ways" on my SKF hubs that are on my GTM and then on the bench for my old C5 donor hubs. I tried to get screen shots as I was spinning the wheel so here is a sample of what I found. The takeaway is there was not change in "polarity" and no change in signal generate from C5 hubs to the SKF hubs.

I would still caution everyone on VR type sensors that are used for engine speed and position. There is a difference in the toothed wheel what would be picked up and if polarity on those sensors is hooked up backwards, you will run into issues.

https://i.imgur.com/ySOsvqz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3BhPm8F.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/aWRZJ2V.jpg

[KGTM]

Generally two wire sensor do not have polarity, my hubs is no polarity sensitive. as you see see single is AC, now if you are tapping into it and is also connected somewhere else them one had to be care full as how the connected each ends and may also effect the other specially if they are full differential input.

BTW, how did you turn your wheels?

Mostafa

[Shoeless]

BTW, how did you turn your wheels?

Mostafa

I actually bolted up the rim and spun it by hand. I screwed up at first trying to spin it from the inside and smashed my finger in the caliper OUCH!! I stayed to the outside after that. Probably really pushed the low side limit of the little bench o-scope I picked up, but it worked so I’m very happy with it so far.

Similarly on the bench for my old C5 donor hubs. Just used a towel, grabbed a stud, and spun away.

[KGTM]

I was hoping you used something else beside muscle:), wanted to so this for some testing.

I tired with tries on and body on the car it was not easy.

Thanks,
Mostafa

[crash]

Just for clarification, as far as I know, there are 4 different kinds of hubs.

1)Regular C5 hub...crappy and will fail under heavy use rather quickly. Smaller spline count. IIRC 29?
2)SKF Competition C5 Hub...sometimes referred to as the X Hub or the Extreme Hub. It can be identified with the black oxide coating on the flange. IIRC 29 spline count?
3)C5 ZR1 Hub...This appears to have a different type sensor. There are two distinctly different colored wires coming out of it. I was warned by the head of GM Motorsports that this sensor is "active" and requires a different hookup than the "standard" C5 hub sensors. I have not verified this personally. IIRC 32 spline count. I was told by an SKF engineer that the internals are the same as the "X Hub" but it uses the higher spline count.
4)The new generation ZL1 Hub...Larger splines, larger flange, 18mm studs, no sensor wires. IIRC 32 spline count.

I used to have a full set of the ZR1 hubs here in the shop but sent them up to where the FFR PDG GTM car is in Sacramento so I can't take pics of those, but I do have the other hubs here. I'll try and get some pictures. Note in pics 6, 7, and 8 the differences in how the hub is finished at the rear of the spline area. The Competition and ZL1 hubs use a swedged flange to retain the rear of the bearing while the standard C5 hub just has a flat surface there. Very different design.

[ChrisGvmd]

Hey everyone,

I finally got everything installed and wired up. Started it up and ran normally (on the lift). I haven't had a chance to take it out and actually test it and see how well it works but the logging function seems to show everything is working properly. It is correctly detecting RPM, manually turning the wheels it is showing a signal, and there is no misfiring or warning lights, so...fingers crossed. Has anybody found a good 'generic' place to do testing? I'm having problems find in a good parking lot or other open space to allow me to purposely try to spin the wheels and the closest track for me is about 1 1/2 hours away. Any thoughts?

138466138465 138467138468

[dlud]

Good news. Seems that the logging function will be helpful for troubleshooting. Where did you mount your RaceTCS ecu? I mounted mine on top of the oem pcm but I'm not convinced that is the best spot.

[ChrisGvmd]

Good news. Seems that the logging function will be helpful for troubleshooting. Where did you mount your RaceTCS ecu? I mounted mine on top of the oem pcm but I'm not convinced that is the best spot.

I mounted it in the center tunnel on the inside of the passenger tunnel. I used a car mount USB adapter on the passenger side tunnel so that I can connect to it from the passenger seat.

138469138470

[beeman]

Great idea for the easy usb access!
If you're like me, you've accumulated about 8 sets of corvette wheels, some with pretty bald tires on them..I'll have no problem testing the traction control system!

[dlud]

I mounted it in the center tunnel on the inside of the passenger tunnel. I used a car mount USB adapter on the passenger side tunnel so that I can connect to it from the passenger seat.

138469138470

Thanks. I may have to relocate mine.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Hey everyone,

Has anybody found a good 'generic' place to do testing? I'm having problems find in a good parking lot or other open space to allow me to purposely try to spin the wheels and the closest track for me is about 1 1/2 hours away. Any thoughts?



We have a local state park just down the road from us. When testing the old RaceLogic systems, I would just pull off in the grass, turn the "mode" or slip adjustment all the way up to 0% or "ice" setting, get moving in first gear and floor the throttle. No, that's not going to tell you how great the system works on a track or whatever....but it is going to tell you if it works and is functioning correctly or not. If you tear up the grass.....it's not working and you might want to hope there are no witnesses......but if the grass is un-harmed, you at least know that the system is operating.

[beeman]

We have a local state park just down the road from us. When testing the old RaceLogic systems, I would just pull off in the grass, turn the "mode" or slip adjustment all the way up to 0% or "ice" setting, get moving in first gear and floor the throttle. No, that's not going to tell you how great the system works on a track or whatever....but it is going to tell you if it works and is functioning correctly or not. If you tear up the grass.....it's not working and you might want to hope there are no witnesses......but if the grass is un-harmed, you at least know that the system is operating.

You're getting a better ROI for your tax dollars than I am...

[Shoeless]

I've actually got two options for where I plan to test my traction control, but first need to tune my computer. If I turn left out of my neighborhood, I've got a stretch of road about a couple miles long with golf courses on either side. I figured I'd get some time on that road before someone complains and the cops show up, so I'll have to sneaky and not get greedy with the number of runs I make at any one time. My other option is driving through my town a bit and out into the farm area. The benefit here is miles on perfectly straight road with pull offs at intersections to reference my computer. The downside is I need to get out of town without a cop catching me :cool:

Short of paying for track time and trailering my go cart there. This is what I want to do until I get at least the first ticket LOL.

[crash]

PRO TIP (lol)

When you are tuning your computer and doing runs on the asphalt, either make sure your laptop is closed, or prop it open as it WILL bite your fingers by slamming closed during launches! :)

If your ECU has logging I would use that. Otherwise you need to have someone driving and someone watching the data on the laptop during runs.

[Shoeless]

PRO TIP (lol)

When you are tuning your computer and doing runs on the asphalt, either make sure your laptop is closed, or prop it open as it WILL bite your fingers by slamming closed during launches! :)

If your ECU has logging I would use that. Otherwise you need to have someone driving and someone watching the data on the laptop during runs.

Sounds like we have a little experience here :p

It’s probably going to be a combination of logging, passenger with the laptop, and me making a prop to hold the computer so I can see it while left foot brake driving so that I can force the computer and car to operate in all the cells I’ll need to populate for the tuning.

[dlud]

Installed the Race TCS. As it turns out I had some difficulty getting the engine to run with the Race TCS connected. It acted like VATS was connected: it would fire and stop. When I disconnected the Race TCS the engine ran fine. After trouble shooting with Race TCS it turns out that the 12v power to the Race TCS requires a power source that is not interrupted when the engine is cranked (which many of the Painless accessory circuits are). After I located a fused circuit that is not interrupted when cranking the engine ran fine and problem solved. Thought I would pass this on for anyone else installing Race TCS.

[beeman]

Thanks for the update dlud. That unit is on my radar..