Coyote Engine Prep -Port the heads?

[TheMole]

I am waiting for my complete kit to arrive at the end of August, and in the meantime I have purchased a t56 magnum and a "slightly used" F150 Coyote engine.

My goals are to have an engine of about 500Hp that has a broad power band and is built very strong, so I have selected purchases to eliminate failure points and make it breathe better. Here is what I have ordered for the engine to date:

-Mustang intake cams, valve springs
-Mustang Oil pump housing
-Billet Oil gear and crank gears (MMR)
-Hi volume oil pickup (MMR)
-Ported 2018 Intake Manifold (Auto Mafia)
-Mustang timing cover

What I am contemplating is whether or not to port the heads. It's about $500-$700 (per head) from what I have read. If anyone has done this and could provide info on the value of that, as well as who you would go for that service (Southern Cal is where I live, but I can always ship), that would be great.

I would also like to hear if there are other options at a moderate price tag to increase performance that would maintain the broad power band (all the cams I have seen cost a lot of money for a relatively small increase in HP and all at the upper RPMs).

Thanks!

[donshapansky]

That truck engine does not have forged internals, the only way you get 500 hp. is with more rpm and compression. I would start with a Boss 302 engine to get the beef needed in the crank rods and pistons.

[Bob Cowan]

A simple hand P&P job done in your garage with a drill motor and sanding rolls is sometimes helpful. Remove the rough sports, casting flash, etc. Nothing radical, just clean it up a bit. Otherwise, spending that much money on a pro job really won't net you much power in the normal driving range.

Consider adding a blower. A stock F-150 engine will easily take 4-5 pounds of boost on occasion.

[edwardb]

That truck engine does not have forged internals... the only way you get 500 hp. is with more rpm and compression. I would start with a Boss 302 engine to get the beef needed in the crank rods and pistons.

Standard Mustang and F150 Coyote engines share the same forged crank, powdered metal stock rods, and hypereutectic pistons. The Boss 302 version of the Coyote was an upgraded Gen 1 that did have sinter forged connecting rods rods and forged pistons. Gen 2 and Gen 3 Coyotes have the upgraded sinter forged connecting rods. It can all get a little confusing.

This is a decent summary of the differences between the engines. https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/f-150-coyote-differences. Looks like the OP has all of them considered. No mention of which Coyote version is being used. Makes a difference. The 2018 intake, by all accounts, is an easy power adder. Some type of forced induction would be next to get a significant power upgrade. I don't know the plans for the build, but I'm running a stock Gen 2 in a Roadster and a stock Gen 3 in a Coupe. Other than the different intake, long tube headers, and Lund Racing tune, they are bone stock. Way more power than I can use for street cruising. More power is good for bragging, but for my use would be a waste of time (and money).

[TheMole]

It is a gen 2 coyote. I'm just trying to squeeze a little more HP out of it. I purposely am avoiding going the cam route and blower route due to the nice power to weight ratio (as well as the price). Just thought while I'm in there if there is an easy way to get a little more and not damage the power band width or my wallet I'd give it a go...

Thanks for all your replies. Kit gets here soon and I'm getting excited!

Paul, I'm looking at your build very carefully for the great examples and detailed thread!

Barry

[stack]

It is a gen 2 coyote. I'm just trying to squeeze a little more HP out of it. I purposely am avoiding going the cam route and blower route due to the nice power to weight ratio. Just thought while I'm in there if there is an easy way to get a little more and not damage the power band width or my wallet I'd give it a go...

Thanks for all your replies. Kit gets here soon and I'm getting excited!

Paul, I'm looking at your build very carefully for the great examples and detailed thread!

Barry

Since this a Gen 2 version you will need the F150 engine harness to run the motor because it has a different firing order( the switch of the coil and injector wiring is in the harness). Another option is to get a mustang engine harness and new cams. You can pick up a bunch of power with comp stage 3 cams. For max effort NA get cams, and cobra jet intake, and tune for E-85. Should get you 500hp

stack

[Bob Cowan]

Well, if you want to add that much power, you're going to spend some money. P&P really won't get you much. Think of it more as a supporting mod. One that nets you some power after you've made changes that that needs the additional air flow.

Shaving the heads to raise compression is a tried and true path to power. But do the research first. I don't know how much you can shave before you're effecting the cams.

For a normally aspirated engine, you should consider a cam change. I know it's pretty expensive, but that's where you're going to pick up the power. Even if you find some used stock Mustang cams, they would be an improvement. IMO, this should be on the top of your list.

[TheMole]

Since this a Gen 2 version you will need the F150 engine harness to run the motor because it has a different firing order( the switch of the coil and injector wiring is in the harness). Another option is to get a mustang engine harness and new cams. You can pick up a bunch of power with comp stage 3 cams. For max effort NA get cams, and cobra jet intake, and tune for E-85. Should get you 500hp

stack

There has been a lot of back and forth on the firing orders between the two engines, so I called Ford. According to them, it's the same firing order (1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2).

However, sounds like a moot point as I do have the 2015 intake (Mustang) cams and the Mustang harness ordered...

[q4stix]

It is a different firing order. I can confirm that. 2011-2014 were the same between the Mustang GT and F150. 2015+ (Gen 2's) are different.

Here's a link to the info I've compiled in another thread:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23174-2015-f150-coyote-engine-harness&p=265696&viewfull=1#post265696

You'll need intake and exhaust cams at the same time.
Someone else said you might need different phasers but I can't confirm that.

[TheMole]

Thanks...lots of confusion out there! I actually talked to two ford dealerships and they assured me that it was the same...then I saw your post (just before getting here)...so if I get stang exhaust cams too then I should be ok...maybe :).

Looks like I was wrong Stack! Apologies!

[q4stix]

Yes, lots of confusion even for those that should have the correct information (Ford dealers and Ford Performance). That's what drove me to look into the manuals and individual part numbers. When I looked I wasn't diving into the phasers since that was a secondary thought of mine. I'm guessing they can be re-marked instead of having to buy new ones because an architecture change wouldn't make sense to me being an engineer by trade.

I ordered a set of the GT350 phasers since I plan on spinning my engine high so I'll try to post pictures of them soon so you can compare and maybe save yourself the cost of new ones if they can be re-marked.

[TheMole]

Thanks q4stix! I saw a video from someone who is doing what I am trying to do with a '17 Gen 2 and the phasers were different. I also thought that the phasers look exactly the same with the exception of the timing mark.

I'd appreciate seeing the pics of your gt350 phasers.

[q4stix]

Here are a couple pictures of the GT350 phasers I purchased. They were 'takeouts' from a wrecked one. I think the model year was 2016 so it is possible that they were using the same ones as the Mustang GT at the time before going to to the reduced leakdown ones. Either way, the timing marks should ideally match. If you can get good pictures of the F150 ones while you're swapping cams, I'll try to make a side by side comparison and writeup of what to mark. I haven't torn my engine down yet since I've been focused on my suspension.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132636&d=1596008956

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132637&d=1596008972

[TheMole]

Yes, lots of confusion even for those that should have the correct information (Ford dealers and Ford Performance). That's what drove me to look into the manuals and individual part numbers. When I looked I wasn't diving into the phasers since that was a secondary thought of mine. I'm guessing they can be re-marked instead of having to buy new ones because an architecture change wouldn't make sense to me being an engineer by trade.

I ordered a set of the GT350 phasers since I plan on spinning my engine high so I'll try to post pictures of them soon so you can compare and maybe save yourself the cost of new ones if they can be re-marked.

I looked closely at the phasers and they appear to be exactly the same with the exception of the timing marks....I'm taking out the cams this weekend and will examine the exhaust cams as well.

The video I saw that id'd the timing marks as being different argued for ordering new Mustang phasers (about $400), so I think you saved me some dollars!.

[q4stix]

I charge 50% of your cost savings for information ;) j/k

I figured they'd be functionally identical aside from the timing marks but good to confirm. Hopefully that'll open the door to more people using F150 donor engines to start their build at a lower cost.

[Erik W. Treves]

I am running 12 pounds of boost in my 17 F150 daily and tow with it.... so the internals are pretty stout - with the correct tune... it moves the truck to 60 in 5.3 seconds - which is wrong for a truck...lol...

[TheMole]

If you look closely you can see minor differences. Lobes are in different places. So glad I listened to q4stix and ordered all new Mustang cams!!!



134073

[q4stix]

Great to hear all my provided info was correct after all haha.

Two things...
1. I saw on your table the cell about the phaser info wasn't large enough so it's cut off. Can't fully verify about the timing marks.
2. For the oil pan, people order the Moroso pan because the stock one hangs below the frame. They don't want it scraping on a speed bump or something like that and causing an oil leak.

[TheMole]

Ok Thanks.... I wasn't sure how to take the original table (with the legibility issues) down..so I added the thumbnail at the end that has this info (I'll update it and re-post).

Thanks for the info on the oilpan...this now makes sense! I think I'll price out the Holley and see.

[TheMole]

134367

[TheMole]

Timing Marks: We hand-cranked the engine and it sounded fine ( and no "hard" stops). Planning on using a starter this weekend and compression test to verify.

I also updated the F150 Vs. Mustang chart and posted it (hopefully correct and legible now).

[dbo_texas]

Seems like someone has figured out how to get the Gen 2 F150 Coyote to work without changing out the cams, phasers, timing cover, etc. I'm still researching but looks promising. Requires a little bit of surgery to the wiring harness (stock F150) to change the pinouts, plus a custom tune. Might help someone out in the future. See more here for very detailed instructions and lots of great info for future builders: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?37487-How-To-Coyote-Wiring-2nd-Gen-F-150-donor-Ford-Racing-Controls-Pack

[Alan_C]

There have been a number of articles written on the HP potential of the different intakes. The best so far is the Gen 3 intake, worth as much as about 50 HP. A well tuned slightly modified Gen 2 Mustang Coyote is likely in the 475 range at the crank. Add the Gen 3 intake, you might see 500 crank HP on a dyno. As others have said, HP numbers are often more for bragging rights. While staying NA, the next big jump would be going to a 5.2L like the M-6007-A52XS. I am not sure if you can buy all the parts from Ford individually, but maybe you can get the crank and matching rotating parts. The M-6007-A52XS is rated at 580 HP, but uber expensive at around $20K for the crate motor. The 580 number at least shows you the potential with the right parts. From dyno testing done on TV, even one 1st Gen Coyote tested at 460 HP at the crank. Likely the pick of the litter, but the advertised HP for these engines appear to be on the conservative side.

[freds]

There have been a number of articles written on the HP potential of the different intakes. The best so far is the Gen 3 intake, worth as much as about 50 HP. A well tuned slightly modified Gen 2 Mustang Coyote is likely in the 475 range at the crank. Add the Gen 3 intake, you might see 500 crank HP on a dyno. As others have said, HP numbers are often more for bragging rights. While staying NA, the next big jump would be going to a 5.2L like the M-6007-A52XS. I am not sure if you can buy all the parts from Ford individually, but maybe you can get the crank and matching rotating parts. The M-6007-A52XS is rated at 580 HP, but uber expensive at around $20K for the crate motor. The 580 number at least shows you the potential with the right parts. From dyno testing done on TV, even one 1st Gen Coyote tested at 460 HP at the crank. Likely the pick of the litter, but the advertised HP for these engines appear to be on the conservative side.


Below is a copy of my previous post. For me 400 rwHP is more than enough I have 1,500 miles on my coupe and it is super smooth to drive. Suspension, as expected a bit stiff.

Dyno-pull and chart
I didn't know that Kinetiks Motor Sport had my coupe dyno-pull on their website here it is https://www.instagram.com/p/B5qjvbVFThL/


Here is the final chart, which I have previously posted. Gen 2 Coyote. Car weighs 2,400 lbs.
Click image for larger version.

Name: Dyno 140472
Views: 89
Size: 165.8 KB
ID: 123845

[TheMole]

There have been a number of articles written on the HP potential of the different intakes. The best so far is the Gen 3 intake, worth as much as about 50 HP. A well tuned slightly modified Gen 2 Mustang Coyote is likely in the 475 range at the crank. Add the Gen 3 intake, you might see 500 crank HP on a dyno. As others have said, HP numbers are often more for bragging rights. While staying NA, the next big jump would be going to a 5.2L like the M-6007-A52XS. I am not sure if you can buy all the parts from Ford individually, but maybe you can get the crank and matching rotating parts. The M-6007-A52XS is rated at 580 HP, but uber expensive at around $20K for the crate motor. The 580 number at least shows you the potential with the right parts. From dyno testing done on TV, even one 1st Gen Coyote tested at 460 HP at the crank. Likely the pick of the litter, but the advertised HP for these engines appear to be on the conservative side.

Thanks Alan_C for the info and recap. As far as engine mods go, I landed on just using the ported 2018 intake, porting the heads (had a buddy who did this for me) and getting a tune (Lund is the leading candidate here)..The only thing that bothers me slightly is the 10.5:1 F150 compression pistons (having said that, my research indicated a very small decrease in hp)..The Aluminator does seem to be the ultimate NA choice (but way too much $$ in my opinion)...