Seeking advice of motor heads about engine selection for MKIV

[kmseddon]

Dear forum engine experts -

My son and I are making final selections on a FFR Mark IV kit and are seeking the advice of engine experts out there. Admittedly, we are not gear heads. We want to go with a 302 motor because we are assuming it will make the build more "standard" and we are looking for a more drivable/reliable engine that has about 350-425 hp. We won't be doing racing and are a bit intimidated by the complexity and hp of the Coyote engines. We are also looking to do the car in period correct racing trim and like the look of the traditional 289/302/347.

With that background, there are three options we are considering. But we don't know the ins and outs of how well some of these engine components perform. Any advice or thoughts on these three options we are looking at:

Option 1) A local shop will get us a new Ford Performance 302 CI 340 HP BOSS CRATE ENGINE WITH "E" CAM tied to a T5 transmission. Comes with Holley Terminator, with a Fast 302 intake, 4150 THROTTLE BODY FOR EFI. claims about 350 hp (approx $16,500 all done)

Option 2) Same local shop will refresh a 347 that has about 50k miles on it tied to a T5 transmission. Comes with Holley Terminator, with a Fast 302 intake, 4150 THROTTLE BODY FOR EFI. claims about 400hp (approx $13,500 all done)

Option 3) Forte will build us a BOSS 363 LONG BLOCK E/STREET HEAD tied to a TKO-600 transmission. Comes with Edelbrock 302 PRO FLOW 4 EFI about 420 hp (approx $18,000)

All have Cobra air cleaners and valve covers, starter, 160 or 165 amp alternator, oil filter, bell housing, fly wheel, etc. so all three are drop in ready.

So I guess I am seeking advice on the engines and the fuel injection set up. How easy are they to install and maintain? If it was your car and money, which of these three would you pick? Is it better to go with a T5 because it is smoother to shift or a TKO600 given the hp we are dealing with?

Thank you in advance for your help. We pray you and your families stay safe and healthy.

Ken Seddon
Ken.seddon@lotnet.com

[edwardb]

Three comments:

1. I get that a Coyote doesn't look or sound like a traditional pushrod engine. But there's a reason (according to Dave Smith) that roughly 50% of Roadster builds are using them now. I've had two after two builds with small blocks. I'm a huge convert. Yes, powerful but very manageable. That's one of the things that makes them especially fun to drive. I always do a bit of a double take when people say the Coyote is "complicated" but then proceed with an aftermarket EFI setup that has nearly the exact same installation effort. Plus with the prices you're being quoted, the Coyote is a bargain. Off my soapbox. I know they're not for everyone.

2. You're paying more than you really need to IMO if you are looking for 350-425 HP. Blueprint has become a very popular option. Like this one: https://www.factoryfiveengines.com/blueprint-engines-factory-five-engines/blueprint-engines-mk4-roadster-engines/blueprint-engines-ford-306-fuel-injected-mk4.

3. Strongly recommend going with a TKO. The T-5 is a little light for what your describing. You won't break a TKO. Yeah, lots of chatter about how they shift. Maybe not quite as nice/easy as a T-5. But once broken in, the TKO shifts fine.

[BradCraig]

I was in the same boat back in December. Agree with everything EdwardB said, and that's the reason I went with the Coyote\TKO. They really are best bang for your buck and very simple to install and plumb. It was also very important that my wife is able to jump in it, turn the key, and go drive...Coyote does that. I also have a Camaro with a small block\Sniper EFI and it was way more work to install\tune. Just my $.02.

[CobraboyDR]

If you want "traditional" with a small block, fo 289FIA/USRRC with a carbed SBF.

There is nothing "traditional" with a small block in a MkIV 427 replica.

To add what edwardb said, TKO shifts fine once broken in. And tougher than woodpecker lips.

But if you can wrap your head around "non-traditional", the Coyote may be the way to go. It looks complicated with computers, sensors and wiring, but fact is it's not that complicated, just different. Technology makes everything better, but maybe not to a purist.

[mike223]

1. I get that a Coyote doesn't look or sound like a traditional pushrod engine. But there's a reason (according to Dave Smith) that roughly 50% of Roadster builds are using them now. I've had two after two builds with small blocks. I'm a huge convert. Yes, powerful but very manageable. That's one of the things that makes them especially fun to drive. I always do a bit of a double take when people say the Coyote is "complicated" but then proceed with an aftermarket EFI setup that has nearly the exact same installation effort. Plus with the prices you're being quoted, the Coyote is a bargain. Off my soapbox. I know they're not for everyone.

2. You're paying more than you really need to IMO if you are looking for 350-425 HP. Blueprint has become a very popular option. Like this one: https://www.factoryfiveengines.com/blueprint-engines-factory-five-engines/blueprint-engines-mk4-roadster-engines/blueprint-engines-ford-306-fuel-injected-mk4.






Additional thoughts on highlighted:

1. The Coyote, from what I understand, is so highly developed and refined as to be the only option where you're not going to end up learning a lot more than you wanted to about efi or carburetion. Speaking as a SBF guy who knows a lot more about Holley 4150s than he ever wanted to learn (and all your aftermarket efi units are going to be the same way).

2. Your options sounded pricey to me too (but I build my own, and wouldn't likely build one for resale, with warranty, etc).

[Jeff Kleiner]

Dear forum engine experts -

My son and I are making final selections on a FFR Mark IV kit and are seeking the advice of engine experts out there. Admittedly, we are not gear heads. We want to go with a 302 motor because we are assuming it will make the build more "standard" and we are looking for a more drivable/reliable engine that has about 350-425 hp. We won't be doing racing and are a bit intimidated by the complexity and hp of the Coyote engines. We are also looking to do the car in period correct racing trim and like the look of the traditional 289/302/347...

Based on what you said that you do and do not want in your first paragraph above I won't try to change your mind and recommend you go here and select "Package Option 2 — $14,680
Complete engine with installed TKO 600 performance aluminum bell 5-Speed Transmission and installed Polished 1-wire 100 amp Alternator and Power Steering"

https://www.factoryfiveengines.com/blueprint-engines-factory-five-engines/blueprint-engines-mk4-roadster-engines/blueprint-engines-ford-306-fuel-injected-mk4

See that I suggest the package for power steering? Trust me on this; do power steering. I've had several cars here for body & paint with Blueprint full packages and they do a really good job of putting it all together well.

Cheers,
Jeff

[GoDadGo]

While many folks love the modern Ford Coyote V8, opening the hood and hearing that super tame exhaust note leaves a lot to be desired.
If you want drivability and fuel economy, then certainly go with the Coyote, but if you want what a Cobra was originally, then a well-cammed pushrod V8 is required.
In addition, consider looking a the offerings from Blue Print Engines before you order a Coyote assuming you want to deal with reduced ease of drivability.

https://blueprintengines.com/products/331-ci-stroker-crate-engine-small-block-ford-dressed-longblock-carburetor-bp3315ctc

https://blueprintengines.com/products/408-ci-stroker-crate-engine-small-block-ford-longblock-carburetor-bpf4088ctc

It really all depends on what you want your car to look, sound and feel like.

https://www.facebook.com/dlarmann/videos/pcb.3656302327730065/10216950901106783/?type=3&theater&ifg=1

If you want to complicate you life by coming over to the Dark Side, then feel free to reach out to me.

[Old Timer]

I am running the blueprint engine 347 with a rebuilt T5.
As long as you drive decent, I have had no problems (50k miles) with my T5.
I would have loved to have a coyote, but my budget screamed every time I look at them.

Maybe my next F5R will be a 35 with a coyote, I know of a wrecked F150
with 159k miles, that has been maintained very well.

[FFinisher]

Based on what you said that you do and do not want in your first paragraph above I won't try to change your mind and recommend you go here and select "Package Option 2 — $14,680
Complete engine with installed TKO 600 performance aluminum bell 5-Speed Transmission and installed Polished 1-wire 100 amp Alternator and Power Steering"

https://www.factoryfiveengines.com/blueprint-engines-factory-five-engines/blueprint-engines-mk4-roadster-engines/blueprint-engines-ford-306-fuel-injected-mk4

See that I suggest the package for power steering? Trust me on this; do power steering. I've had several cars here for body & paint with Blueprint full packages and they do a really good job of putting it all together well.

Cheers,
Jeff

Ditto-

That little 306 is a nice little package and will run like a top.

Ever had a customer say "gee I wish it didn't have power steering...?" No Never!!

But I have added it after customers were dead set against it.

Power steering and Power brakes or Power steering and Wilwoods .. and you will love it.

[Hoooper]

For 400HP and a pushrod engine, a $3,000 L92 out of an Escalade and a $1,000 T56 makes a lot more sense to me than $14k

[BradCraig]

I missed the part about wanting to stay traditional! Scratch the Coyote then!

[cnutting]

One of the reasons (there were a few...) I ended up with the 289 kit is I would have felt obliged to source a date code FE block which would have added cost and weight if I went with the MkIV. Just my OCD. CobraboyDR touched on this as well.

I went with a carb 289, built up by Mike Forte, backed with a TKO. Around 340 hp. It's fun, but it's also loud, rough and I can't just turn the key and go. Mileage is not great. But... That's exactly what I was looking for. It's not for everyone. I sold a super low mileage STI which had all the creature comforts to fund this adventure. That was a fun car, but I found myself too disconnected from the driving experience.

Haven't installed a Coyote, but after reading edwardb and others posts, it seems straightforward. It all comes down to what you want your car to be. I would recommend the TKO for those hp levels. It can be a little notchy at first,butshifts fine.

[Traveller]

Nothing to add to all the good advice above, but I will agree with the recommendations to look at the BluePrint combos mentioned above based on what you are looking for. I was originally set on pushrod as well, but was enticed into the coyote world instead (but I am still a week or so from dropping the motor in). It's hard to argue about the bang-for-buck and good manners of the coyote.

I recently found this video that the guys at FFR posted a few months ago to be interesting as they are just talking about the various motor options they frequently see:
https://youtu.be/fpjwKZEgzj8

[rich grsc]

Seeing as you listed SBF's for all three of your choices, then the Coyote is out, That said, the prices you listed are HIGH, for $16,000 that thing better have Stack EFI. None of the engines you listed will break a T-5, these cars are just too light to be a concern until you're up in the 450 and up hp range. If you never race it, even that hp would be OK with some care. I have a 100,000 mile +, t-5 behind my 331 it still has all the parts inside the case, when I break it, I'll get the same.

[junglejim]

Hi Ken, my two cents worth. The small ford is a very common & very loved engine. the drawback is the cylinder case is very short & stroke increases pull the piston skirts partway out of the bottom of the cylinder. I'm not saying that this has been a huge problem, but it sometimes can be, if not properly executed. personally, I'd stay away from a 347 refresh unless you can verify the build history from the beginning. These engines can make great power, & hearing them scream is intoxicating, so be sure you don't get one that has screamed a little too loudly. the 363, on the other hand makes use of an aftermarket block, which has improvements in the casting design to ensure their longevity. The 302 that you mentioned is surely a 400 HP engine as advertised, but with a 3" stroke, that 400 HP is way up there in the RPM range. Great for showing off, not for cruising.

[edwardb]

Just a quick follow-up and maybe an apology. The OP clearly stated his plan for a traditional pushrod engine. Got it. But one of the reasons cited was the complication of installing a Coyote. Then cited an aftermarket EFI setup, which isn't really any easier. One could argue maybe easier since it's an engineered package that starts and runs out of the box. That was mainly my point, but then got a little carried away in my promotion I guess.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Just a thought, nothing to do with traditional vs non-traditional. Its about the alleged difficulty of installing a modern engine. Been doing engine swaps since 1960 & the COYOTE crate engine is the easiest one I ever did. Pretty much drop it in, plug it in, get a tune & drive it. TKO-600 makes a Muncie Rock Crusher look like a 98lbs weakling. Very solid power package.

In typical COBRA usage it will literally run for years with an annual oil & filters change. Have 15,000 miles on mine & the first plug change will be due in 2050. Don't expect I will be around to worry about it.:D

[CobraboyDR]

None of the engines you listed will break a T-5, these cars are just too light to be a concern until you're up in the 450 and up hp range. If you never race it, even that hp would be OK with some care. I have a 100,000 mile +, t-5 behind my 331 it still has all the parts inside the case, when I break it, I'll get the same.Good point about a light sled and decent power behind a T-5. It's hard enough to hook one of these things up, much less hooking up so solid you over-torque the tranny. Maybe with a drag set up or something, but not in normal street use. I'd not go much over 350/350 on one, though.

[GWL]

Another reason for the Ford Small Block 302.

I used shorty headers on my 302 and it allowed me to enlarge the passenger footbox almost two inches toward the engine. First the block is narrower than the Coyote and the shorty headers are much narrower than the 4 into 4 headers. Try out the passenger footbox of a standard exhaust 302 or that of a Coyote and think about how 2 more inches would feel.

I was also able to enlarge the drivers footbox but there are other ways of doing that with a Coyote too. I haven't seen any modifications to the passenger footbox with the Coyote but there may be a way of enlarging it there too.

Just some options to think about, George

[SteveHsr]

Agree with Jeff Kleiner, package 2 is everything you want and need. Don't complicate the car.

[kmseddon]

Thank you everyone for your candid and honest advice. I think part of what is driving my son's decision is that our garage is also home to some 65 and 67 stock corvettes with 427s and an L88 with side pipes. He's just old school at heart which is what draws him to the 302 block vs. the Coyote. Great thoughts on power steering and extending the foot box - never would have thought of that. We appreciate the time and thoughtfulness of your posts and wish you health and happiness. I think we are going to go with the 347 rebuilt option #2 - he's just a sucker for that sound from side pipes. We would go with carbs, but the temperature variances you run into in AZ with our weather, we think EFI will be more stable/dependable.

God Bless,

[NAZ]

With all that Bowtie power in the garage, y'all aren't even going to consider a SBC?

[BluePrintEngines]

Thanks so much for the kind words above guys. We have probably done 400 complete engine/trans packages for FFR customers! they really are great packages, and as stated above, a 306/347 is an awesome way to get a traditional looking and sounding v8, with aluminum heads, roller cam, and EFI if you choose. they come 100% assembled, engine, trans, and front accessories.

I also recommend PS for sure.

Give us a call any time to discuss! 308-236-1010 is Johnny, the FFR account manager.

306
https://factoryfiveengines.com/blueprint-engines-factory-five-engines/blueprint-engines-mk4-roadster-engines/347-ford-fuel-injected-mk4

347
https://factoryfiveengines.com/blueprint-engines-factory-five-engines/blueprint-engines-mk4-roadster-engines/blueprint-engines-ford-347-carbureted-mk4

We also do sniper EFI on the above.

thanks so much for the consideration!!

and again, they come out of the crate JUST like this!!
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