Lastest pics, trying to see the light..

[PhyrraM]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4811&d=1317485486
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4822&d=1317494610
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4821&d=1317494609


That car looks HUGE. Not the 818 I have envisioned so far. Now I understand why Dave stated 1800 pounds as a goal. Up until now I had been wondering how it could even hit 1800 pounds.

Even @ "wookie compatable" it looks like it should be 8/10th of what it looks now. It looks substantially larger than the Elise that has been used as a comparision target.

Are my eyes fooling me? Is it just because of the tight surroundings that makes it look huge?

Thoughts?


This picture leaves some hope..........
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4820&d=1317494608


Picture credits: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3671-SHHH!-I-m-at-FFR-today-10-01-2011-WITH-A-CAMERA!

[riptide motorsport]

I lthink it looks fantatic, very proportional. I have to believe its your eyes....steven

[Flamshackle]

I love them!

Yea the side profile looks large but that may just be the design of the doors being disproportionally large for the body size?

[thebeerbaron]

That car looks HUGE. Not the 818 I have envisioned so far. Now I understand why Dave stated 1800 pounds as a goal. Up until now I had been wondering how it could even hit 1800 pounds.

Even @ "wookie compatable" it looks like it should be 8/10th of what it looks now. It looks substantially larger than the Elise that has been used as a comparison target.


I had the same thoughts. I think that some of this has to do with David "The Wookie" being squeezed in around the temporary windshield trusses and not being in a traditional seating position/location/height. But realistically, the 818 wheelbase is longer than the Elise by 5", so of course it will look larger. But I do think that this particular design you see carries a lot of visual weight between the doorframe and the rear wheel. Call it a necessary evil of the mid-engine design, but it's there. Yes, I think compared to a Lotus Seven clone, the 818 is a heavyweight, and I don't know where the weight will come from. But hopefully it won't be as floppy as the Seven, and some of that weight can be shed by lightweight freaks like me. (There's a comment by Dave Smith around here that 1600 might be possible...).

I was disappointed that the only picture we got of the Nouphone Bansasi design is the same damn view we've seen a million times - rear corner looking forward. Nouphone used an even smaller subset of that view as his teaser. The big picture we've seen in the winners pages is that picture. Now this "spy shot" is that same picture. I'm going to needle Dave Smith a bit here (sorry Dave!), but I really hope that the front end isn't some lemon-sucking Edsel clone that they're just too scared to show us :)

I'm in a holding pattern on this car. I really hope the final designs have a lot more punch than what I've seen revealed so far. An 818 with a killer body is a no-brainer. An 818 that looks like a mishmash of vanilla design elements might not be enough to do it for me.

[David Hodgkins]

You can call me Chewy. :)

Pictures have a way of skewing perspective. I'm sitting with my knees bent at a 90 degree angle to help prop my arms in a driving position, so the door opening looks huge. It is bigger than other ffrs but I think the hot rod's is probably bigger.

If I had to put a description to the overall size I'd use sword like stout, or muscular. I was very impressed with the width/length ratio. It's definitely not the size of an else, which to me is like an overgrown cart. I'd put its overall size at something like a 911. But it looks a little wider. Not a lot, but yeah, a little wider.

[Draco-REX]

Hmm... I was hoping for something the size of a 914 or Miata.

Well, if it's 911 sized but still 1800lbs or less, I'll still rock it. 1800lbs is still 1800lbs, even if it has a moderate polar moment.

However, looking at the rolling chassis pictures, it doesn't look like it'll be too big. The front and rear overhangs will be mostly empty fiberglass.

[David Hodgkins]

Yeah, take my comment with a grain of salt. I don't know the wheel base and it was in a fairly small space so I don't have a point of reference. You're right about the short overhang though.

All I really know for sure is that I want one! I'm definitely sold. I don't know if I'll get to be a beta builder but I'll definitely be an early adopter.

:)

[Flamshackle]

I'm in a holding pattern on this car. I really hope the final designs have a lot more punch than what I've seen revealed so far. An 818 with a killer body is a no-brainer. An 818 that looks like a mishmash of vanilla design elements might not be enough to do it for me.

Be patient baron ;) Remember that this is all WIP stuff and "spy shots" at that. The bonus of getting all these "spy shot" teaser images is that it keeps us coming back for more! (I know cos I check the site for more pics every day!) The not so bonus is we get all these low quality weird images on funny angles that dont show perspective well or give us the whole picture. They just wont do justice to the beauty of the beasts... The final models with images from every angle shot in a good lighting environment will be awesome of that I am sure!

Lets lend a little patience and trust to Dave and the builders...

[Draco-REX]

All I really know for sure is that I want one! I'm definitely sold. I don't know if I'll get to be a beta builder but I'll definitely be an early adopter.
I will wait to see what the 818-R will be like then make my decision on whether I'll get the roadster or the R, but either way I'm going to build an 818. :) It's a foregone conclusion... Barring the complete collapse of society.

[spaceywilly]

FWIW, when I saw the chassis at the open house it was actually smaller than I was expecting. I agree it looks huge in the photo but I will reserve judgement until I can see the real thing. Photos have a way of distorting things.

One suggestion, when they finally show the scale models there should be a mannequin of the same scale for reference.

[PhyrraM]

Don't get me wrong. I think it looks fine. I think it's fairly proportionate too.

It's simply the size. Knowing that Dave (the guy in the seat) is 6' 6" and 320 pounds (as stated in another thread) he should fit (promised "wookie" size) but shouldn't look "normal" to "small" sitting in the mockup like he does in the pics. He should fit, but look a tad oversize. With the car that large (I said car, not cockpit) a guy like me (5' 7", 240 pounds) is gonna look like Grandma in her Lincoln - I fear.

I too was hoping for the lighter, form-follows-function, skin draped over mechanicals look. Porsche 914 and 550, Lotus Europa, Fiat x1/9, etc were my hopes as goals.

That all being said, it hasn't dampened my enthusiasm for the project. I feel that if it is indeed too large, FFR will soon recognize this and scale it back....even shortening the chassis if required. Dave said it will be right, and I still believe him.

[spaceywilly]

I think there are a few reasons it looks almost cartoonishly large in those photos
1) no dashboard so there's a lot of space in front of knees
2) he's in the middle of the car and not on one side or the other
3) you can't see the front or back of the car, so your brain has to guess the length using visual cues from the lines of the car
4) any camera "flattens" a photo into two dimensions, and depth info is lost. Things that look bigger in the photo are actually just closer to the camera

I think it will be about the same size as a Cayman, which is also midengined and 95" wheelbase

[GUNS]

I'm glad it's not the size of an elise or miata. I love the elise and have a lot of experience in them, but it's just so small. To me that takes away from the looks. I like a car that looks substantial. If it's too small, I feel it that it falls in to the "cute" category. So with this being a little bit longer and wider than the elise, I think proportionally it will look great. I like the direction that this design of the 818 is going and can't wait to see more.

[kach22i]

That car looks HUGE.

You have been looking at too many cheated designs lately. I hope you never become a safety engineer.:)

DON'T KILL THE WOOKIE!

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/wookie-power-roll-over.jpg

I have to confess, I'm about a foot shorter than David, and have never had to live with this issue. If he has no problem with it, I have no problem.

For reference a 1980's Ferrari 308 GTS.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/magnumpiferrari.jpg
http://www.celebheights.com/s/Tom-Selleck-264.html

Tom Selleck was never taller then 6'3.5" (192cm) tall in his prime.

My friend Barry, in my other friend Burce's car (a 1980's Ferrari 308 GTS). Barry is larger than David, he's a Super Wookie.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Exotic%20Cars/Barry-Ferrari-D1.jpg

[Steve91T]

You have been looking at too many cheated designs lately. I hope you never become a safety engineer.:)

DON'T KILL THE WOOKIE!

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/wookie-power-roll-over.jpg

I have to confess, I'm about a foot shorter than David, and have never had to live with this issue. If he has no problem with it, I have no problem.

For reference a 1980's Ferrari 308 GTS.
http://llamabutchers.mu.nu/archives/magnum%20pi%20ferrari.jpeg

He did say that he was sitting in a stock seat that was high. A race seat bolted to the floor would have put his head much lower.

[kach22i]

He did say that he was sitting in a stock seat that was high. A race seat bolted to the floor would have put his head much lower.
Yea, a lot of track drivers bolt the seat to the floor even if they are short to lower the center of gravity.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3671-SHHH!-I-m-at-FFR-today-10-01-2011-WITH-A-CAMERA!

I sat in a production Subaru WRX seat that was at least 4 inches above where the frame floor will be.
Note: I am 6'6", 320 lbs. True Wookie Size!

David H, can you clarify if that 4" is under the seat, or seat cushion height above floor?

EDIT: Some measurements of my car seat.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/seat-5.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/seat-7.jpg

As you can see my car seat slopes downward from 5" to just 3" in the back. Not a lot of toe room, which is why the rear seat occupant typically sits sideways in an old 911. No rear seat on a 818, go for low, low as you can.

I don't know what the stock Subie seats are set at. Maybe a Subie owner which chime in.

[BipDBo]

I know he's just sitting in the middle of the car becausee of the 2x4', but that got me thinking. At 320 lbs, in a car that may weigh as little as 1600 lbs, perhaps sitting in the middle isn't such a bad idea. I kow it would require some modifications to the space frame, but, what do people think about an 818-R variant with a single seat in the center?

[Justen]

I know he's just sitting in the middle of the car becausee of the 2x4', but that got me thinking. At 320 lbs, in a car that may weigh as little as 1600 lbs, perhaps sitting in the middle isn't such a bad idea. I kow it would require some modifications to the space frame, but, what do people think about an 818-R variant with a single seat in the center?

That could be really cool for a very balanced car. I would never do it on mine because I want to DD it, but for a dedicated track car. I thinks its a good idea.

[David Hodgkins]

I know he's just sitting in the middle of the car becausee of the 2x4', but that got me thinking. At 320 lbs, in a car that may weigh as little as 1600 lbs, perhaps sitting in the middle isn't such a bad idea. I kow it would require some modifications to the space frame, but, what do people think about an 818-R variant with a single seat in the center?

There is a diagonal bar currently between the seats, and no tunnel. The 1st mule has diagonals along the sides too. Sitting in the center of the chassis is not possible without removing that center bar.

I do know that the chassis is being reworked pretty substantially in an effort to hide the outer diagonals. I don't know if it is in the plans to lower the center diagonal but it looks to me like it's a "load bearing" part.

The seat I sat on was on the floor of the mock-up, and I was told that it was on the same plane as the chassis floor. On a production 818 you could mount seat tracks under the seat, which would raise it a couple more inches.

HTH,

:)

[kach22i]

The seat I sat on was on the floor of the mock-up, and I was told that it was on the same plane as the chassis floor. On a production 818 you could mount seat tracks under the seat, which would raise it a couple more inches.

Thank you for the clarification.

[Draco-REX]

There is a diagonal bar currently between the seats, and no tunnel. The 1st mule has diagonals along the sides too. Sitting in the center of the chassis is not possible without removing that center bar.

I do know that the chassis is being reworked pretty substantially in an effort to hide the outer diagonals. I don't know if it is in the plans to lower the center diagonal but it looks to me like it's a "load bearing" part.

The seat I sat on was on the floor of the mock-up, and I was told that it was on the same plane as the chassis floor. On a production 818 you could mount seat tracks under the seat, which would raise it a couple more inches.

HTH,

:)
Also, those following along should keep in mind that the seating surface in a race seat is much mug lower than an OEM seat. Using race seats instead of the donor seats will lower the driver by a couple inches if the mounting surfaces are at the sake level. Granted, some mounting systems are higher jam others.

[16g-95gsx]

I like what I'm seeing. I think I even spy a hood vent there :).

[D2W]

I like what I'm seeing. I think I even spy a hood vent there :).

Yes, there is definately something going on in the center of the hood. I also understand what PhyrraM is saying. The back half is so heavy looking. Big butt, wide sills, it still looks big with a guy the size of David H. sitting in it. I wouldn't have thought the chassis would require something so big. I'll wait until the unveil to pass final judgement though. I will say though that with all of Dave's excitement about a car that's going to knock my socks off i'm not feeling it.

[Draco-REX]

Yes, there is definately something going on in the center of the hood. I also understand what PhyrraM is saying. The back half is so heavy looking. Big butt, wide sills, it still looks big with a guy the size of David H. sitting in it. I wouldn't have thought the chassis would require something so big. I'll wait until the unveil to pass final judgement though. I will say though that with all of Dave's excitement about a car that's going to knock my socks off i'm not feeling it.
Whenever I think it's going to be huge, I remember this pic:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4828&d=1317494618

That's a short wheelbase, and all the weight will be between the axles. A foundation like that will make for a really fun car even if it *looks* bigger.

[D2W]

I was disappointed that the only picture we got of the Nouphone Bansasi design is the same damn view we've seen a million times - rear corner looking forward. Nouphone used an even smaller subset of that view as his teaser. The big picture we've seen in the winners pages is that picture. Now this "spy shot" is that same picture. I'm going to needle Dave Smith a bit here (sorry Dave!), but I really hope that the front end isn't some lemon-sucking Edsel clone that they're just too scared to show us :)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2254-700-Designs-Please-post-your-designs-here-for-all-to-see

This post has multiple views of Nouphone's design including a front view. About midway down first page.

[D2W]

Whenever I think it's going to be huge, I remember this pic:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4828&d=1317494618

That's a short wheelbase, and all the weight will be between the axles. A foundation like that will make for a really fun car even if it *looks* bigger.

No disagreement there, the chassis looks great. I know FFR can handle that part. Here's to hoping the body will be just as good:)

[thebeerbaron]

The back half is so heavy looking. Big butt, wide sills, it still looks big with a guy the size of David H. sitting in it. I wouldn't have thought the chassis would require something so big. I'll wait until the unveil to pass final judgement though. I will say though that with all of Dave's excitement about a car that's going to knock my socks off i'm not feeling it.

My concern is that I agree with all of your points. And I'll add one more - if "Chewy" is sitting on an OEM seat, the race seat will put the average person much lower in the car and move the door tops up closer to their eyeballs. I don't know about you, but I prefer a car with a lower belt line for a number of reasons, both aesthetic and functional. When I thought 818, I thought minimalist flyweight Exige killer. I'm trying to withhold judgement until I see all the models in the flesh, but I am having trouble doing so. What seems to be common among these designs are bulky GT-exotic lines. I think the Rodney Olmos design has the best chance of looking "right", but not exactly as inspiring as I had hoped. I've had a lot of faith in the FFR team, to be brutally honest, I'm starting to wonder if it was misplaced... Prove me wrong Dave, prove me wrong.

(Also, thank you D2W for the link to the Bansasi pictures... very illuminating)

[PhyrraM]

You have been looking at too many cheated designs lately. I hope you never become a safety engineer.:)...............

Nope, no plans to be one. As far as cheated designs....? Some say that's all anybody has been looking at.

A few random thoughts......

Street car crash protection on the 818.....ummmm....from a purely economic standpoint...the 818 driver doesn't stand a chance against any production car because FFR doesn't have anywhere near the resources needed to even get to late '80s standards. Give it a proper roll bar and hope for the best. Side bars will infringe upon entry and exit, a good cage is a non-go without requiring a helmet. Adding more tubes and bars IS NOT adding a crumplezone. This is no different than ANY car in it's "class" and I don't see this as a negative. I see trying to make it something it will never be as the negative.

The track version can be much better because a cage structure can be near a helmeted driver and more of the regular frame can be the crumple zone.

"Drivers car"....well?...Not if the driver is buried in the cockpit with horrible sightlines. Horrible sightlines caused by an artificially high beltline dictated not by function, but by some persuit of....... a J.Lo rump?

"Wookie compatable" might become "wookie only".

Such wide car and I've got to sit rubbing shoulders with my passenger? And the shifter (possibly) knocking the side of my knee?

Am I going to have to spend $$$ on 18"+ wheels to make it look acceptable? What do those wheels weight? And what will that rotational inertia do to my dynamics? The dynamics that have been promised to be foremost in the design....


Don't take me wrong, I'm not NEARLY as negative on the project as these last few post make me sound. I'm more just voicing small, but important to me, concerns. We all know any car is a series of comprimises, and how and what you decide to comprimise determines the character of what is created. My personal slant is/was small, light, minimalistic, nimble, and $9999 out the door....these latest photos are clearly a step away from some of that. But not nearly a large enough step to dampen my enthusiasm or support of the project as a whole. I think Dave a FFR do great work and are worthy of my hard earned dollars.

Dave....What size wheels and tires are on the full size body pictured? What is shorter/narrower.....The 818 or the Hot Rod?

[thebeerbaron]

Don't take me wrong, I'm not NEARLY as negative on the project as these last few post make me sound. I'm more just voicing small, but important to me, concerns.

I would like to echo these sentiments.


My personal slant is/was small, light, minimalistic, nimble, and $9999 out the door....these latest photos are clearly a step away from some of that.

And also this.

[D2W]

^Yes, Me Too!^

[Flamshackle]

"Wookie compatable" might become "wookie only".

Seriously? you think that there is any chance a car will be designed just for me! wooohooo! I dont think thats going to happen (although I would love it)


Am I going to have to spend $$$ on 18"+ wheels to make it look acceptable? What do those wheels weight? And what will that rotational inertia do to my dynamics? The dynamics that have been promised to be foremost in the design....

Just for some thought. I shopped around for 1 month and found a set of 18" rims to suit my 2005 Subaru LGT and they weigh just 7.2KG (15.8 pounds) each. so in fact my rotating mass took a big total dive (20.2 pounds each) from the factory rims. all that for under 1000USD with tires... see below pics...
4880

Dont forget that STI wrx donors will have a set of 18 factory and 17" if your using a standard rex...


Dave....What size wheels and tires are on the full size body pictured? What is shorter/narrower.....The 818 or the Hot Rod?

Also keen to know if they are the wrx rims... they look 17" to me...

[PhyrraM]

Seriously? you think that there is any chance a car will be designed just for me! wooohooo! I dont think thats going to happen (although I would love it)

If the belt line and window lines are high enough that only a head sticks out above, and some need to sit on phonebooks? Yep, you'd be a lucky guy.


Just for some thought. I shopped around for 1 month and found a set of 18" rims to suit my 2005 Subaru LGT and they weigh just 7.2KG (15.8 pounds) each. so in fact my rotating mass took a big total dive (20.2 pounds each) from the factory rims. all that for under 1000USD with tires... see below pics...
4880

Dont forget that STI wrx donors will have a set of 18 factory and 17" if your using a standard rex...

But the rotating mass is pushed further out from center, exponentially increasing the energy required to make it move (rotational, steering axis and suspension movement). Also the 818 is 1800 pounds, the WRX/Legacy is 3300. Unsprung weight ratio will already be poor (OEM suspension parts with way less body mass) without adding huge wheels for basically "looks".

No WRX/STI in the target donor range ('02-'07) came with 18" wheels except for maybe the '07 limited edition STI (<1200 made).

I can see many arguements for smaller wheels, but I can't find any non-vanity related points for larger wheels.

[Niburu]

I was planning on a set of Enkei RPF1's in 17X8 and calling it a day.
Kinda lof whats on the chassis display.
They're track proven, under 16 pounds a piece, and around a grand (up to about $1200 depending on your source)
tires not included

[kach22i]

4880
I have to ask why does your car looks gift wrapped?

As far as the high belt line issue, most of my designs had low belt lines. I like to put my elbow up on the sill sometimes, plus I'm short, no wookie here. In general this made several of my designs look dated or 1980's ish.

I think the high belt line has a plus and minus to it, it's a little late in the game to start to second guess it. The designs being developed may not take kindly to lowering of the belt line or side window sill.

[thebeerbaron]

But the rotating mass is pushed further out from center, exponentially increasing the energy required to make it move (rotational, steering axis and suspension movement). Also the 818 is 1800 pounds, the WRX/Legacy is 3300. Unsprung weight ratio will already be poor (OEM suspension parts with way less body mass) without adding huge wheels for basically "looks".

Exactly. If the lighter and more powerful Caterham Superlight R500 (506kg, 263bhp) can kick *** with 13x6/13x8 tires, why does the 818 need "dubs"? The actual issues that limit wheel size (on the smaller end) are brake caliper size and availability. I've heard 15"s will fit over the WRX brakes, if you can find them. There are some great tires in 15" sizes, and they're affordable. It looks like 17" has the best availability in WRX bolt patterns, which is sad.

As far as the beltline and general bloat, that's a "go back and do it again" thing, not a "tweak the design" kludge. Not what Dave and Co. want to hear, but if the customer base cries foul after viewing the completed models, one would hope they'd be listening...

[305mouse]

Baron, I look at you in that avatar, and if you take the angle into account, only your head and shoulders are above the belt line. Dave is those photos is 4" taller than me I think? I think that would put you in a simular position in the 818.

As far as wheels and sizes. Get some 16x8 or narrower wheels if you want. This will not be a track only car for me. I want 9" wide wheels in the rear cause of how it'll look. I won't be missing anything. I have a set of 16x6.5 track wheels already if I get serious about it. Let people make it how they want to. FFR lives for racing and design. I don't think they'll develope a car that needs 18" or larger wheels to make it look right. I think most people will use 16" or 17" wheels cause that's what came with their donors.

[Draco-REX]

But the rotating mass is pushed further out from center, exponentially increasing the energy required to make it move (rotational, steering axis and suspension movement). Also the 818 is 1800 pounds, the WRX/Legacy is 3300. Unsprung weight ratio will already be poor (OEM suspension parts with way less body mass) without adding huge wheels for basically "looks".

No WRX/STI in the target donor range ('02-'07) came with 18" wheels except for maybe the '07 limited edition STI (<1200 made).

I can see many arguements for smaller wheels, but I can't find any non-vanity related points for larger wheels.
If you keep the same overall diameter, you're not increasing the polar moment all that much.

Infact, Grassroots Motorsports Magazine recently did a test on their Miata comparing the performance differences between rim weights and tire weights. The findings were interesting. Rim weight did not effect performance much at all (I believe it was around a tenth over a 60 sec AutoX course.) But tire weight made a big difference (around a half second.)

So going with a lighter 18" rim would be a benefit when paired with a light tire like a Handbook RS-3. You get the benefit of a lighter tire, and the lower aspect ratio will compensate for the RS-3's soft sidewall. This is the combo I'm considering for my build.

[PhyrraM]

If you keep the same overall diameter, .....

That is my concern. The pictures make it look like the overall diameter is larger than the OEM Subaru.

It may not be the case at all, and I'm perfectly willing to say that it's only a few photos - photos of something other than the final product.

[kach22i]

Side bars will infringe upon entry and exit, a good cage is a non-go without requiring a helmet. Adding more tubes and bars IS NOT adding a crumplezone.
I saw this photo and remembered part of the post above.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/170660-ultimate-targa-thread-71.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads19/P3200011b1317356463.jpg

On the Porsche 911 the crushed part of the lower floor is a hollow tube in which heat from the engine is blown through. It is also structural and welded to the floor pan. It just gets me to thinking that maybe the 818 floor system can add side impact strength if designed to do so.

The 818 has side door bars, I'm not one to wish them away. In fact maybe they need to angle out a little so there is an allowance to crush or deform inward upon impact.

[Flamshackle]

I have to ask why does your car looks gift wrapped?

hahaha... It was the wedding car for my mate :D

[shinn497]

It is way to early to pass such judgement. There are no internals or even a completed model yet.

[Flamshackle]

It is way to early to pass such judgement. There are no internals or even a completed model yet.

THIS!!! THIS!!! THIS!!!

Please dont knee jerk react people. Dave has promised awesome incarnate and looking at GTM and other FFR cars I personally will hold the faith till the final models in full scale are seen in the fleash... or at least with a 360degree video panorama spin in 3D :D

[Cooluser23]

I know he's just sitting in the middle of the car becausee of the 2x4', but that got me thinking. At 320 lbs, in a car that may weigh as little as 1600 lbs, perhaps sitting in the middle isn't such a bad idea. I kow it would require some modifications to the space frame, but, what do people think about an 818-R variant with a single seat in the center?

I always liked the idea of a McLaren F1 like 3-seater. It seems to be the optimal number of passengers I often carry with me. With my daily driver 2 seater, I always feel 1 seat short. Yet, oddly enough, I never really need to seat 4.

Maybe a Lotus Evora like setup would for for future revisions of the 818. (maybe with an extended wheelbase) I remember Dave suggesting the car be modular.

[Cooluser23]

At the risk of sounding repetitive, could you do a mockup with cool looking doors? (just hold them in place by hand)

Like this:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/upload/20589/images/mclarenp11.jpg
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/upload/20589/images/McLarenMP4-12C.jpg

I think this could set this car apart from a standard "Miata" type look. Also it'll help clear the roll bars in the door better.

[thebeerbaron]

THIS!!! THIS!!! THIS!!!

Please dont knee jerk react people. Dave has promised awesome incarnate and looking at GTM and other FFR cars I personally will hold the faith till the final models in full scale are seen in the fleash... or at least with a 360degree video panorama spin in 3D :D

I think we've all stated that we're waiting for the models before passing judgement, but the previews have us scared...

[thebeerbaron]

I think this could set this car apart from a standard "Miata" type look. Also it'll help clear the roll bars in the door better.

Yep and it's been noted elsewhere this would come at the penalty of increased weight, complexity, and parts-cost, which is contrary to the original goals of the kit. The WRX didn't come with those hinges and even simple "lambo" door kits that you see on eBay are big and heavy. This helix stuff can't be any less complex...

If you want to do this to yours, awesome. But as a single-donor kit, I wouldn't hold out much hope for it to be stock.

[Steve91T]

I think we've all stated that we're waiting for the models before passing judgement, but the previews have us scared...

Maybe some of you are scared, but I'm excited. There is no way Dave and his team are going to let this car be anything but perfect. That picture that has everyone scared is hardly anything to go by. A tall guy is sitting in a mock up with 2x4's everywhere, and no way to know exactly how the seat is sitting on the floor....if there is even a floor.

Beer, I know you're not going anywhere until these things are being shipped out. Just don't get scared over one picture.

From what I can see, this thing is going to be a really nice looking car. I want one.
Steve

[thebeerbaron]

Steve - its more than one picture that has me worried. I was where you were a couple months ago, now I am not. I have been pondering a blog post or other presentation of my concerns, but had planned to hold off until I saw all the models in person. Maybe I should go forward with that sooner than I planned. Perhaps this weekend.

I would be happy to eat crow on this, but waiting until the unveiling might prevent that. Until then, I'll remain anxious.

[Dave Smith]

Jim and the guys would prefer to stay silent and let the car unveil cause people heart attacks and spontaneous human combustion... I am very confident that the car is proportionately sized, at least car concept #4. Still, the proof is in the seeing and I can only tell you it looks very very wide, very low, and the nose is longer and leaner than I thought (concept #4).

A more accurate and quantitative description of concept 4 is to take an old Lotus elan and feed it steroids for a few years and have it mate with a lamborghini and a Lancia Stratos, infuse some DNA from the FFR-GRM design contest, nail on the rear resolution of a 360 Modena and let the rest be added by Jim here and ... never mind, you'll see all four shortly.

[Steve91T]

Jim and the guys would prefer to stay silent and let the car unveil cause people heart attacks and spontaneous human combustion... I am very confident that the car is proportionately sized, at least car concept #4. Still, the proof is in the seeing and I can only tell you it looks very very wide, very low, and the nose is longer and leaner than I thought (concept #4).

A more accurate and quantitative description of concept 4 is to take an old Lotus elan and feed it steroids for a few years and have it mate with a lamborghini and a Lancia Stratos, infuse some DNA from the FFR-GRM design contest, nail on the rear resolution of a 360 Modena and let the rest be added by Jim here and ... never mind, you'll see all four shortly.

That sounds great! I can't wait to see it.

[Niburu]

all we ask for are just some minor miracles

[PhyrraM]

Maybe some of you are scared, but I'm excited. There is no way Dave and his team are going to let this car be anything but perfect. ....

You can be excited and concerned at the same time.

The word "perfect" is way to vague at this point. Perfect handling would be something on the order of 13" wheels, every major component inside the wheelbase centerlines, maximum effort on unsprung weight (ie. NO OEM parts), etc. Perfect looks...? Well....redheads, blondes, or brunettes? "Perfect looks" really means "not offensive to the greatest amount of prospective customers".

There is no perfect, only comprimises. But, we all know this and understand what Dave means. I admire Dave and FFR greatly and think that they are totally up to the task of deciding where the comprimises should fall.

Dave allowed us to see these "sneak peeks". Why? To gain a bit of feedback maybe? I'm giving mine, as we all should. Don't confuse feedback for lack of enthusiasm or confidence in FFRs ability, especially when it's been stated that it hasn't effected them.

[D2W]

I'm with PhyrraM on this. You showed me a concept, it didn't excite me, and I gave my opinion. Could I change my mind later, absolutely. But to just sit here and keep my mounth shut when you show me something I don't care for seems stupid. I want this car to look as good as it goes, just like everyone else.

[Steve91T]

I understand, and maybe "perfect" wasn't the right word. What I don't understand is how can people be forming opinions on something when they haven't even seen the whole thing yet?

Look at the picture that MadDog just posted. Sure, I'd like to see something without 20's, but other than that, I can't tell exactly where the driver position is going to be, and what the whole thing is going to look like. But from what I can see, it looks pretty good.

I'll take the blue one!

BTW, 13's are old school. Wheels are light weight and there are so many more tire sizes available in the 15-17" range. This car is still going to out preform just about anything on the race track.

All I'm saying is it's tough to form opinions on a car that isn't done and that you haven't even seen entirely.

Steve

[Nelff]

Sounds like a lot of stress is going on here...

From what I have seen from Dave and F5 the 818 is a car that will define where the company will go in the future. I really don't think that he/they want to produce something that is tech inadequate and stylistically un-sellable. Trying to accommodate everything that everyone wants just will not happen. If Dave produces a car that has Lambo doors and 13" dia wheels just because someone has a whim, then he will loose credibility, sales and his company. Dave is trying to produce a base chassis that will accept multiple bodies to satisfy differing requirements. If Dave creates a light, beautiful, well crafted car F5 will have built a fan and owner base. If someone wants to re-create their own impression of the design then have at it. F5 has done a tremendous job thus far. Give creative ideas and the process will work. Un-realistic requests will only serve to slow the process. When the bodies are finally done, thumbs up or thumbs down and why...

And just so you know... I really want an all wheel drive, adjustable ride height air suspended, 450hp-flappy paddle, race slick swappable to off road tired, hose out the interior, air-conditioned, 2200lb sports car beast that I can drive to Lowes and toss some concrete in the back... Am I gonna get it... umm... doubtful... But I am excited about what Dave and F5 is doing here!