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Jonweisw
09-30-2011, 09:56 AM
I need some advice:

I live in NJ, where in order to pass inspection, a replica/kit must have the emission control equipment based on the block-year of the engine. As such, I found a ("reputable") local builder to build me an engine based on a "pre-1973" block (1973 because that was the year that EPA began to require catalytic converters - until then, all you needed was a PCV valve). After waiting 4 1/2 months beyond the promised completion date, I took delivery of the engine, which he described to me as a 289 stroked to 331 which made 440Hp on a dyno, and installed it. I installed it with a Massflo EFI and straight four-into-four exhaust, and, with the exception of an oil leak at the rear seal that the engine-builder has promised to repair once the car is registered and I can drive it to him, the engine has been functioning flawlessly.

I finished construction of the Roadster last weekend and have been gathering all the required information and documents to present to the State for registration and inspection. Along the way, I had to take pictures of "all engine markings and serial numbers," which I did and found the following stamped above the starter: N E0AE D3G (see bottom of 9-28-11; NJ DMV Paperwork « Jon's F5 Roadster Project for a jpg). In about 5 minutes of poking around on the net (and subsequently confirmed by some very knowledgeable sources) I have learned that this is an engine from 1980.

I discussed this with the engine builder, who confirmed for me that he could provide no way to tangibly prove that the block was from pre-1973, other than to say that "the rear main seal was a two part seal which was only used in the the 70's" (which didnt help me much anyway as he confirmed that that could mean 1979, and no inspector is ever going to examine the rear seal to determine the age of an engine..). He was very humble about the problem and has offered to replace the engine and install it at his expense.

So, I am asking the Roadster community at-large, what should I do? Does anyone have any idea what emissions control equipment was standard on a small block (presumably a 302) Ford engine in 1980?

As I see it, my options are to;

A) leave it as is and put it through an inspection and deal with it only if it fails (problem being the cost in flat-bedding it to/from the facility which is 50mi away)

B) try to comply by changing the exhaust to include shorty's and J-pipes with catalytic converters in them and anything else that a 1980's engine came with.

C) Take the builder up on replacing the engine now (I would most likely change vendors if this is the best option).

The inspection in NJ does NOT include the use of exhaust sniffers; they only look at the installed equipment. After the car is titled and registered, it gets inspected with sniffers (at the usual car inspection-type facility).

This is really disappointing. I am so close and this problem has the potential to delay the project significantly.

ANY advice would be genuinely appreciated.

Jon

cmsu
09-30-2011, 10:14 AM
I would say do it once and do it right, I believe based on your post your main concern is "the potential to delay the project significantly." Sacrifice now (absorb the delay) do it right and drive the car for the next 40 years with that unmistakable smile on your face ...................................... its almost winter in the NE anyway so you will be ready for spring 2012 ..............

onefastben
09-30-2011, 10:22 AM
TAlk to someone at the DMV inspection station and explain the situation; before you trailer the car 50 miles. They should be able to give you some insight on how they will address the problem. They might just say no problem because they understand you are trying to do the right thing. Worth a try. Plan B is to try and get your money back from the engine builder and get an engine elsewhere, maybe Engine Factory. Due to the time it took your builder to get you an engine the first time, I would tend to shy away from having him do another one for me.

skullandbones
09-30-2011, 10:23 AM
Jon,
I read your story on your build site and remember your trouble with the oil leak. This is only my opinion but since you will have to have that repaired anyway by this builder, take the offer and change the engine out now. You've done a lot of good work so far. It would be a shame to have to modify the exhaust and maybe other devices to meet NJ standards. So I vote for C as the course of action. Maybe someone can give you the legal workaround for choice A but remember you still have the seal issue. Thanks, WEK.

Jonweisw
09-30-2011, 10:52 AM
Wow - all great advice.....sobering....but great nonetheless. How long does it take to swap an engine? could it be done over a weekend with a couple pairs of hands?

skullandbones
09-30-2011, 11:01 AM
That's one thing I forgot to address. Onefastben did mention the trust factor. If this is a reputable builder, the TAT for the original job may have been an exception to his normal customer service. But if you have any doubts, maybe it's time to "cut and run". You choose him in the first place so maybe he's OK. I would make the time frame perfectly clear with him. Give a week or perhaps two. Hold his feet to the fire on this one. He should feel bad enough with the seal thing and the wrong engine block numbers to comply with your wishes. Now the option A doesn't look so bad. Good luck, WEK.

Jacob McCrea
09-30-2011, 11:02 AM
Jon,
I agree with calling the DMV first. For the price of a phone call, it can't hurt. If you get the answer that I think you'll get, I agree with the suggestions to pull the engine and have the correct one built. Installing the necessary emissions equipment sounds like a lot of expensive, time-consuming work, perhaps more so than swapping an engine.

Also, for what it's worth, I was surprised to read that the builder called the engine a "289 stroked to 331." My understanding, albeit based only on my research, is that combining a 289 block with an oversized crank is a bad idea since the bores aren't "deep" enough to prevent the pistons from rocking in the bores at bottom dead center. I read that in one of the small block Ford books that are mentioned here from time to time, although I can't say which one. If I am wrong about this, I'd be happy to be corrected.

The fact that your builder called it a 289 block is suspicious, to say the least. There may be some reasonable explanation, like using short skirt pistons which don't stick out of the bores at BDC, but it still seems suspicious to me.

Good luck and let us know what you conclude.

Someday I Suppose
09-30-2011, 01:46 PM
Jon,

No fun at all, part of me says to tell the builder to get you another block, and part of me agrees with the comments offered by Jacob. I know the builder was recommended to you and I can't expect a builder to know the codes like the back of his hand, but the 289 block I dont think was made past 68??? So to call it a 289 instead of a 302, etc. just leaves me a bit concerned.

I think at the very least though I would have another conversation with him, pulling the engine isn't the end of the world, with the right group of guys it should be easy to do in a weekend if not in the same day. Of course if the body is painted, lots of blankets certainly wouldnt hurt. ;-)

_Scott

Tom Komline
09-30-2011, 09:01 PM
I have a '68 302 block. The casting number and date assembled confirm this. I've been keeping it as a spare in case I need it. I'd be willing to sell it if you or your engine builder need it.

BTW - it takes a couple of hours to remove an engine and the same to reinstall it. Ask me how I know!

Jonweisw
10-01-2011, 08:23 AM
All -

I called down to the inspection facility and spoke to an inspector who was very helpful. He CLEARLY felt bad for me for this situation and we brainstormed for several minutes as to ways we could get around it. In sum, they must ascertain that the engine has certain minimum emission control equipment; they do NOT put sniffers on the car to check for actual emissions (which in NJ gets done at a later date at the same facility as regular cars) nor do they care if the actual emissions are above standard for the block year, as might be demonstrated on a report generated by an outside facility.

I am therefore left with either registering/titling the car in FL or replacing the engine. In order to title/register in FL, you must have a FL address, and following transfer of the registration to NJ, there is the issue of getting the car to pass through the emission inspection. As the minimum equipment would be absent (EGR), the car would fail (and would also be in violation of federal law) an emission check to get a window sticker.

SO, I have been in touch with Chris at The Engine Factory, the very helpful staff at Mike Forte's (who immediately knew who I was from these posts - made me lol), and another local builder. My current engine builder (and I dont mind identifying him now - Bob Oster at B&B Automotive Machines in Rahway, NJ) offered to build up an engine based on an early block using the guts from the current engine, but told me that it would take at LEAST 2 months, which is way too long for me to wait. He already had me wait 4 1/2 months beyond the two months that the current engine was supposed to be built and I dont want to go down that road again.

Hopefully, I can have something ready in a week or two, and then its just a matter of swapping the two. I do not plan to remove the body to do that (its not painted), but I suspect that I will have to remove the transmission in order to get it to mate up properly with the new engine prior to installation.

When I was a surgical resident, we had an adage which holds SO true in this circumstance: TRUST NO ONE, DO IT YOURSELF, CHECK IT TWICE, and YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS. All applies to this except that last one - thanks to all on this thread who gave me advice!

Jon

Tom - thanks SO much for the offer- I may take you up on it down the road if I cant find something suitable locally.

Scott - Agree! Also he told me that the reason he thought that the block was a pre-1973 block was based solely on the fact that it employs a two part rear seal (which obviously doesnt work with the DMV people as a point of reference to the block year). Maybe thats why I have such a wicked rear seal leak....

skullandbones
10-01-2011, 10:32 AM
Jon,
It's not time to say there's a happy ending, yet. But maybe you have gotten past the bad luck phase and on to "smoother sailing". Keep us up to date on your progress. Good luck, WEK.

tfalk
10-02-2011, 09:27 PM
Bob also did the stroker kit in my coupe. He's seen enough Ford engine blocks that he should know
at first sight that it wasn't a pre-73 block... He does good work but his time estimations are based
on pure fantasy... Between my own experience and several others I know who have had him work
on their motors, I can say with 100% fact that he hasn't a clue when anything will be done.

If he says 2 months, figure 4 at least...

If the motor in my coupe was running, I'd lend it to you to get through this. Unfortunately, it was
assembled over a year ago and never started...

Raceral
10-03-2011, 11:39 AM
Sell the current engine and just buy what you need. Sounds like a great motor and someone would love to have.