View Full Version : Help me stick it in (dizzy)
egchewy79
07-02-2020, 07:12 PM
Trying to insert my distributor and it won't seat all the way in. Looking down the hole, it appears my oil pump shaft is off to one side. Tried positioning it in the center with a screwdriver, but keeps tipping to the side. Any pointers? No oil in the engine yet if that makes any difference. 131027
GoDadGo
07-02-2020, 07:26 PM
Here's long shot that I don't know will work or not.
Try jacking up the right side of the car to see if it stops the flop of the shaft.
Leave the distributor on the bench and fill the pan with dino juice, preferable a good break-in oil such as BR30. Then get an oil pump priming tool https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99012-1/make/ford and run the pump with a drill motor (the correct direction) until you see all the the push rods weeping oil at the rockers. To install the distributor you're going to need to bump over the engine and that will require ensuring you have primed the lubrication system first.
Don't give up, you'll get there.
egchewy79
07-02-2020, 08:25 PM
Leave the distributor on the bench and fill the pan with dino juice, preferable a good break-in oil such as BR30. Then get an oil pump priming tool https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99012-1/make/ford and run the pump with a drill motor (the correct direction) until you see all the the push rods weeping oil at the rockers. To install the distributor you're going to need to bump over the engine and that will require ensuring you have primed the lubrication system first.
Don't give up, you'll get there.
Yes, I plan to prime it before first start with the drill method and brake in oil. Trying to figure out how to center the oil pump shaft as is leaning to the side, preventing me from getting either a socket or end of dizzy on it
egchewy79
07-02-2020, 08:41 PM
Leave the distributor on the bench and fill the pan with dino juice, preferable a good break-in oil such as BR30. Then get an oil pump priming tool https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99012-1/make/ford and run the pump with a drill motor (the correct direction) until you see all the the push rods weeping oil at the rockers. To install the distributor you're going to need to bump over the engine and that will require ensuring you have primed the lubrication system first.
Don't give up, you'll get there.
Yes, I plan to prime it before first start with the drill method and brake in oil. Trying to figure out how to center the oil pump shaft as is leaning to the side, preventing me from getting either a socket or end of dizzy on it
egchewy79
07-02-2020, 08:42 PM
Wondering if my oil pump shaft came out of its hole when I was turning the engine upside down when it was on the stand.
Big Blocker
07-02-2020, 10:21 PM
Copy n paste from other forum:
Two things: 1st, a small dab of grease filling the shaft guide (hole) will hold the shaft steady, wheel bearing grease works great.
2nd thing I noticed, and I might be seeing it wrong but, it looks like the shaft is installed up-side-down, flat side up instead of pointed side up - making it harder to get the dizzy to self-center the shaft as it is dropped in . . . every shaft I've worked with have had a flat end and a pointed end.
Doc
AC Bill
07-03-2020, 02:42 AM
Place the distributor in position, and put slight downward pressure on it, while turning the engine over by hand. If you don't have a buddy to help, try to get the distributor hold down bolt threaded in, and tighten just enough to apply slight downward pressure. At some point, the distributor should drop down flush.
As AC Bill said, you simply rotate the engine (I use a remote starter button or helper) while applying a bit of down force on the cap. I've never had a problem that I needed to center the shaft but Doc has a good way to do that if needed and his observation of the tapered end is why I've never had any problem installing a distributor. And the need for bumping over the engine is why you need to pre-lube it.
Norm B
07-03-2020, 08:51 AM
Two things I noticed.
First you have some flecks of what looks like red paint in the distributor hole and some on the distributor drive gear on the cam. Try to remove those as any type of contamination is not good inside the engine.
Second I agree with Doc. It looks like you have the flat end of the pump drive shaft up. Maybe yours was manufactured different but, here is a screen shot of one off the web showing the slight pointed end that is supposed to go up.
HTH
Norm
egchewy79
07-03-2020, 08:52 AM
Let's assume the pump shaft was inserted upside down. Does this affect its functionality? Will the tapered end engage the pump correctly? I also understand the flair on the shaft prevents the shaft from coming out if replacing the dizzy. This part of the engine was already completed when I acquired the engine so I don't know if it's upside down or right side up. I could always remove the pan and pump but would rather not now that the engine's in the car
Note the difference in the hexagon length on each end. With the shaft upside down the distributor may not be able to go all the way onto the shaft before hitting the larger section of the shaft and ending up not seating itself fully into the block.
I didn't want to throw this into the mix earlier but only after you consider the ends of the oil pump shaft and since you don't know what kind of shaft is in there you might consider what I just went through:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?36583-I-need-a-pre-1986-Ford-302-distributor-measurement-and-advice
Seems there are a lot of people that didn't know about the change in oil pump driveshafts and distributors that took place in '86 when Ford went to EFI from the carburetor.
In '85 Ford changed the block with taller lifter bosses to accept roller lifters and when they went to EFI in '86 they changed the distributor length and the length of the oil pump drive shaft. It would stand to reason a length change of distributor and oil pump length took place at this time because they had to change the distributor anyway when moving to EFI.
George
George
egchewy79
07-03-2020, 09:39 AM
Thanks George. This is a 66' 289.
If the shaft does not have the retainer on it you can use a magnet to pull it and double check the orientation. If you're not sure how to do this you will probably find a dozen YouTube videos on this. The tricky part is reinstalling it but that's easier than pulling the pan.
If all this was easy, anybody could do it.
Norm B
07-03-2020, 11:28 AM
Unfortunately I can see the retaining clip on the shaft in the picture so NAZs' idea is not going to work. If the engine was assembled and working before with this oil pump drive shaft then it should fit now. If you have changed things then you are going to have to pull the pan and oil pump to confirm proper installation.
Norm
If the retainer is installed then the only way I know to be sure the shaft is in correctly is to pull the pan and pump. I was thinking the retainer fit in a groove but it's been many years since I've replaced one so I went back to check and it appears that's not the case.
Big Blocker
07-03-2020, 12:10 PM
The retainer IS installed, clearly viewable in the picture posted. Only way to remove shaft now would be to sacrifice the washer into the pan and hope to retrieve it with a magnet. This is where a bore scope comes in real handy . . . You would need the pan and oil pump removed to reinstall IF you wanted it there for insurance in the future. You will need to push the retainer washer down with a piece of stiff tubing, a straw won't work., then remove the pump shaft with a straw or magnet.
Having the pump shaft up-side-down will not effect the operation of the pump . . .
Doc
egchewy79
07-03-2020, 12:37 PM
Yes, I can confirm that the retainer is at the top, meaning I wouldn't be able to remove the pump shaft from above. I'll try the grease method to center the shaft
Doc, the hex on one end is longer -- does the shaft bottom on the bitter end into the pump drive or on the edge of the hex? I was thinking it was on the edge of the hex where the shaft diameter is larger so if installed upside down may drop down farther than the correct orientation. And the shorter end may not fully insert into the distributor shaft. Been so long I just don't remember but you probably do.
Big Blocker
07-03-2020, 01:45 PM
NAZ, it's been many many years since I did engine work . . . In all my experience with "high performance" pump shafts, the taper hasn't caused an issue with right or wrong placement. The shaft bottoms out in the pump and rests there by shear gravity. The retainer washer should be installed to give an 1/8" clearance to the bottom of the distributor shaft guide bore, which is machined smooth. EG's shaft, from post #13, states that it is from a '66 289. They did not come with the upgraded [tapered] shafts, even in a Hi-Po version, that was a customer upgrade. 289 pump shafts are all one size diameter-wise and are ground to a slight "point" on what should be the top end. No telling what transpired with his rebuild . . .
Doc
Railroad
07-03-2020, 05:06 PM
See if chamfering the hole on the bottom of the dist shaft will help. I would also put some anti seize on the dist shaft end and put some pressure on dist, while spinning the motor. The dist gear will be engaged on the cam gear before it drops down, so if you are #1 cyl and timed it will be right when it drops down.
good luck,
egchewy79
07-03-2020, 06:35 PM
Railroad, I'd be worried about getting metal shavings in the engine. Not sure if spinning the crank or bumping the starter would help. The problem isn't that the pump shaft is rotated relative to the dizzy shaft. The issue is that the pump shaft is leaning to one side and the bottom of the dizzy shaft is hitting the pump shaft. I need to find a way to center the pump shaft, then drop the dizzy onto it without tipping to over. I tried turning the crank and it does nothing to the pump shaft.
AC Bill
07-03-2020, 08:09 PM
I tried turning the crank and it does nothing to the pump shaft.
You mean nothing in the way, that the pump shaft isn't even turning?
If your timing chain is installed, and the crank is turned, your cam will also turn, which spins the oil pump/distributor shaft.
The oil pump is not turned directly by the crank so if you're turning the crank without the distributor installed don't expect to see the oil pump drive turn. If you want to center the oil pump drive follow Doc's instructions -- I've never needed to do this but maybe you do. But you don't have to turn the oil pump shaft to align it with the distributor, you apply down force to the distributor while turning the crank which will drive the cam which in turn drives the distributor. As the distributor rotates it will engage with the pump drive.
Railroad
07-04-2020, 08:30 AM
egchewy79, you need to try some of the suggestions. Someone put that dist in before and it can be done.
As far as chamfering as I suggested, hopefully you would do it on a work bench, wash or blow away the filings, lube it up and give it a try.
Take your grease gun and put a shot of grease in the bore, around the shaft. Take a screw driver and center the shaft in the hole. Do your TDC and dist timing and push down on the dist housing while someone spins the motor over.
Jeff Kleiner
07-04-2020, 08:39 AM
You mean nothing in the way, that the pump shaft isn't even turning?
If your timing chain is installed, and the crank is turned, your cam will also turn, which spins the oil pump/distributor shaft.
Wrong. The pump is driven by the distributor which is driven by the cam. No distributor=no movement on the pump shaft.
Jeff
AC Bill
07-05-2020, 02:48 PM
Yeah, I guess I worded that incorrectly. I meant with the dist. in position, and some downward pressure applied. There should be some cam/dist gear engagement, enough to help the pump shaft find it's way home, when the engine is bumped.
I notice now that he mentions there is no oil in the engine yet. so that's not be a viable option.
Some info here that maybe helpful. https://www.onallcylinders.com/2020/01/13/mailbag-ford-302-oil-pump-driveshaft-distributor-alignment-tips/
j.miller
07-07-2020, 07:25 AM
Now Kleiner…..can I say it now!...……...SPIT ON IT !!!.....that one bout killed me. JK didn't think I could hold it that long...da Bat
rich grsc
07-07-2020, 07:47 AM
Now Kleiner…..can I say it now!...……...SPIT ON IT !!!.....that one bout killed me. JK didn't think I could hold it that long...da Bat
I heard under a half minute.:rolleyes:
Jeff Kleiner
07-07-2020, 08:41 AM
didn't think I could hold it that long...da Bat
Well, just going on what everyone says...
j.miller
07-07-2020, 05:21 PM
I took a pill....so there ! Ha! ….double HA HA ! I WIN, right...didn't I ….REALLY ! I WAITED ALL THAT TIME AND STILL NO PARTICIPATION RIBBON !!!! this is so rigged...da Bat
Big Blocker
07-15-2020, 07:16 PM
Jeff (Da Bat),
You deserve a medal for your ability to hold off as long as you did . . . Actually surprised no one jumped on that earlier.
Doc
egchewy79
08-07-2020, 04:10 PM
just to cap of this thread. I decided to change my pump. the build sheet from the original builder states a HV pump and after some deliberation, I decided to switch it to a standard one to avoid possible issues down the road. this required removing filter, starter and dipstick from the pan.
how the heck do you guys remove the larger 1/2" bolts from the rear of the pan by the rear main seal? There's hardly any room there. I ended to using a combo wrench on the head of the bolt, parallel with the bolt shaft, and unscrewing it like a screwdriver using an actual screwdriver in the closed end of the wrench for leverage. it was hard enough the remove them, but I'm not really sure how i'll get them back in and tightened down. Do you grind down a wrench? get a thin walled socket and extension?
the pump was indeed a HV pump and the pump shaft was installed correctly. Actually, the shaft was symmetric, so there is no right side up or up side down. Both ends had about a 1" taper to a hex and the middle of the shaft was thicker. The retaining ring slid down the top and stopped where the taper got wider in the middle of the shaft. there would have been no way to push the retainer down to the bottom.