Death of a Cobra Dream [Archive] - Factory Five Forums

EZ$

05-30-2020, 03:13 PM

Well, after almost eight years, and coming within sight of the finish line, I'm contemplating the end of my attempt to complete this build.

I reached first start, but had a coolant leak develop at the intake manifold. Took it apart, replaced the gasket, and had the threads yield on the locations where it bolts to the head. Took it apart again, helicoiled all the bolt holes, replaced the gasket again, put it back together, and had coolant leaking before even restarting the engine. Took care of some other things, but then took it apart to replace the gasket again. Put it back together, filled it with coolant, and when I got up this morning, checked the level in the Lisle funnel, I realized that it was leaking again. Checked the diaper that I had put under the engine when I filled it yesterday, and it is saturated with coolant.

There is obviously no way that I'm going to get this gasket to seal, and I'm not sure I can afford to abandon the set up I have for a different configuration. I'm also not sure I have the desire at this point to make the attempt.

I'm going to step away from the project for awhile before I find that 5 lb. sledge that's out in my shop somewhere. We'll see once I cool down whether I decide to continue or not.

Thanks for listening.

KDubU

05-30-2020, 03:27 PM

Rick, that is very frustrating and you are so close now. Are you using a gasket as you say and not copper RTV? That is what I used based on feedback from many here including Gordon Levy. Perhaps that would work better?

Bob Cowan

05-30-2020, 04:19 PM

Over the years, I've seen a number of intake manifolds that don't fit the heads. The primary symptom is that gasket leak you describe.

When you're ready, clean everything up like before. Then set the intake manifold down on the heads and see how it fits. Some people find the angle of the heads is not the same as the angle the intake manifold. Instead of a narrow line shaped gap, it's a triangle - usually wider at the bottom that the top.

EZ$

05-30-2020, 04:29 PM

Kyle, I'm using a FelPro steel lined gasket designed for the larger ports of performance heads. Black RTV at the front and rear china walls.

Bob, I think you are probably right. If I get to the point that I actually want to go back out and work on this, instead of beating it with that 5 lb. sledge, I'll check that out. It would be frustrating to find out that was the case for obvious reasons.

Rsnake

05-30-2020, 05:14 PM

Rick,

Stick with it and don't give up, never give up!
I am in Half moon bay and willing to come over and look at, two minds are better then one.
I have built many sbf's and seen all types of issues.

EZ$

05-30-2020, 05:24 PM

Rsnake, I appreciate the offer, and I'll keep it in mind if, and when I decide to get back to this. Right now I can't see that far. Thanks.

Greg K

05-30-2020, 05:32 PM

Just to add...set it down in place without the gaskets to check angles, and also check the gap at end rails without gaskets and make sure it's at least .040" minimum.

Over the years, I've seen a number of intake manifolds that don't fit the heads. The primary symptom is that gasket leak you describe.

When you're ready, clean everything up like before. Then set the intake manifold down on the heads and see how it fits. Some people find the angle of the heads is not the same as the angle the intake manifold. Instead of a narrow line shaped gap, it's a triangle - usually wider at the bottom that the top.

Papa

05-30-2020, 06:02 PM

Hang in there, Rick. You're so close. Take those that have offered help up on their offer, that's what makes this hobby so rewarding. If I were closer, I'd be there to offer whatever help I could.

Dave

RJD

05-30-2020, 06:29 PM

Envision how good it will be cruising down the road in that car when you finish it. All that frustration will be in the rear view mirror. Hang in there and best of luck.

EZ$

05-30-2020, 06:37 PM

Greg, Thanks for the additional info. I'll keep it in mind.

Dave, Thanks. I know you would. You've been an amazing help on so many things. Thank you.

RJD, That's the only thing that got me this far, but as things pile up I can now understand why some people get theirs built, and sell them almost immediately. But thanks.

cv2065

05-30-2020, 06:53 PM

Hang in there Bud. Anything can be fixed. Just have to regroup and see another angle.

Jim1855

05-30-2020, 07:05 PM

EZ$,

Something I might offer to help with testing or evaluating where the problem stems from.

Get a piece of threaded rod from the hardware store. I believe that it is 5/16-18 but please check. Then cut 4 lengths that are a inch or more longer than the bolts. These become guides at each corner so when you reposition the manifold on the heads it locates in the same (or reasonably so) position. Then tape two spacers of approximately gasket thickness front and rear on each head. Please plug the intake ports with a rag or paper towel, fishing for washers will not brighten your day.

Once the manifold and head surfaces are clean this system should allow you to position the manifold and see a gap and determine where the irregularity is, a feeler gauge may help. You may not find anything out of the ordinary which may lead to reevaluating the installation process. Or there may be an irregular gap where more "goo" of your choosing is used to provide proper sealing or maybe different gaskets.

Often the first step and perhaps the most difficult part of problem solving is determining where the problem is.

I offer this as I currently have a manifold where the mating surface to the china wall isn't flat. I'll have to follow a similar process as described to determine what needs to be corrected.

Now about that ballpeen. It really doesn't solve the problem but I have a section of wall board with a hole in it that looks remarkably like an old AT&T cordless phone. Think Wile E. Coyote and the canyon wall. I always get a little warmth thinking about that phone.

Hope this helps,

Jim

EZ$

05-30-2020, 07:27 PM

cv2065, Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm going to be setting this project aside for awhile.

Jim, Thanks for the suggestions. I did have an old cell phone that is encased inside a sheetrock wall at my old office. Wasn't worth removing the sheetrock to retrieve it.

Bob Cowan

05-30-2020, 08:41 PM

Kyle, I'm using a FelPro steel lined gasket designed for the larger ports of performance heads. Black RTV at the front and rear china walls.

Ah Ha! The plot thickens. Stack injection/Individual Runner manifolds are very picky about port size. If port size is just a little too big, you'll lose intake charge velocity, and you'll lose all your low end power. Consequently the ports are sometimes made smaller than you would expect. These manifolds don't play well with large port performance heads - been there, and done that! They can leave the top or bottom of the port uncovered and open.

Did you match the manifold ports to the gaskets? And then the heads? Be sure to line up the bolt holes correctly.

I didn't want to mention this before, but Speedmaster does not have a good reputation for quality and fitment. http://www.coloradospeed.com/speedmaster79-ezp-88.html

EZ$

05-30-2020, 10:20 PM

Hey Bob, you see this is what may happen when you haven't a clue, and you assume everything matches. I know the gasket matches up to the head well, but to be honest I didn't check them out against the intake. The coolant ports in the heads are smaller than the ports in the gasket. I'm not saying that the gasket doesn't match up to the intake manifold, I just didn't check.
Yeah, we discussed this a few years back when I decided to go this way. Honestly, from an untrained eye, I was very pleased by the setup, and the smoothness of the operation of the linkage, and also how solid the whole unit is. I think the new individual runner stack injection setup is even better than mine, which is now "old school". I did think about going with one of their new intake manifolds, and just transfer the throttle bodies and linkage. The only thing keeping me from that is if it needed machining to fit I'd be hosed!

Al_C

05-31-2020, 11:16 AM

Rick! Don't give up! You want to talk about leaks, I'm your guy. Pick the leak, I've had it. If I can overcome fuel, coolant and brake leaks, so can you. Walk away, cool down, and get back at it in a few days. Like Chad (cv2065) said, "Anything can be fixed". He's right. Lose the sledge hammer. You can fix this!

CFranks

05-31-2020, 12:12 PM

Take a break and hopefully the itch comes back soon. I look forward to your graduation post!

EZ$

05-31-2020, 02:45 PM

Al, I know what you're saying. I went into this knowing that I wasn't going to be building this car once, but that I'd have to do things at least twice, but not some things. Four times is a bit excessive, and it just feels like "the straw". I may be able to, but I'm not sure I'm willing to do it again with the possibility that I end up exactly where I am now.

CFranks, it will definitely be awhile.

cv2065

05-31-2020, 03:11 PM

I have received a warped Edelbrock intake before. Looked like it had been drug down the road on the mating side and it was brand new. Edelbrock swapped it out so I never installed, but didn't look promising.

EZ$

05-31-2020, 03:40 PM

cv2065, with the amount of machining that was done to the intake by the builder, at this point, I doubt they'd swap it out, even if it was warped, plus, I would have hoped that it wouldn't have gotten mounted in the first place if that was the case. I checked the mating surfaces with a straight edge when I had it off, and that didn't seem to be the case. But hey, what do I know?

JohnK

05-31-2020, 04:40 PM

Hey Rick, hang in there. It sounds like you're sooooo close now. It sucks to run into such a frustrating issue. I'm still early in my build, but have already had my share of problems (both random and self-inflicted) that have frustrated me so I can only imagine how frustrated you must be after having invested so much time and effort in your build. I have no idea what the problem is with your engine, but if you just need someone to come lend a hand or even just drink a beer and commiserate, I'm just down the way from you in Los Gatos.

EZ$

05-31-2020, 05:27 PM

JohnK, I hope that your build doesn't present this kind of frustration. The self inflicted part I can deal with. Thanks for the offer. If I ever get back to this I may take you up on it. I spent a ton of time in the Los Gatos area.
I lived out off of Santa Teresa and Snell, down by Santa Teresa High school. We used to run in Los Gatos all the time. Great town. Best of luck on your build.

GoDadGo

05-31-2020, 06:01 PM

EZ,

Don't sweat the little stuff because these issues will be resolved with time and money.
Yes, going down a totally custom path is tougher than doing a basic build; however, we all suffer from aspirations to create our personal dream cars.
You'll get though this and you will achieve your goal long as you don't give up or worse, surrender.
With these little bits said; good luck from the Dark Dart Side!

Steve

https://youtu.be/SJ2hJezvd2I

JohnK

05-31-2020, 08:24 PM

Thanks Rick. Best of luck to you too. Hopefully you put the frustration behind you, finish the build when you're ready, and enjoy your dream ride. Let me know if you plan to come down this way.

-John

SJDave

06-01-2020, 09:31 AM

A lot of us know exactly how you feel!

Count me in on if you decide to move forward, I've got a surface plate in my shop and inspection equipment, I can check out the surface flatness on the intake for you....and....have a roll of lapping paper I wring with water to the surface plate if there's a high spot, possible to remove a few thousandths with a couple hours of manual effort.

As you know I have RHS heads on my 347 stroker too, not impressed with the quality, they are low end performance heads for sure...spent $500 to have Gromm Racing blueprint them and match the ports to the intake. But, first time I put them on had a slight radiator fluid leak at the Driver side rear. Took them off and then went thru the stripping threads too and finally heli-coil them all. I used some Permatex Form a Gasket around the water jacket ports and that has worked for 15,000 miles. I'm sure there's an underlying problem, maybe the angles don't match quite right.

I have a Victor Jr. Edelbrock Intake I will give you if you decide to change induction system. Put a throttle body EFI on top like FAST or Holley and you're good to go....but not the cool factor of the Stack system for sure.

Yep, take some time to calm the nerves, we're here to help if you go forward again.

Mike N

06-01-2020, 10:24 AM

Depending on your heads, the water port size and the gasket port opening you may not have enough sealing surface. Here is one link but there are many others. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/thanks-felpro-sbf-intake-gasket-nightmare.586409/ You may just need a small water port gasket.

robertjamesellis

06-01-2020, 10:52 AM

I just noticed you are in San Ramon as well. I'm putting the finishing touches on my build to try and get it registered before paint. I'm no expert about your issues but happy to come over and provide help and encouragement. I've been at my build for almost 2 1/2 years and taken a few sideways turns as well. Let me know if you would like to get together and at least commiserate and share our build stories and frustrations!

Rob

Big Blocker

06-01-2020, 11:50 AM

Rick,

Back in post #20 you mentioned that the builder did some machining on the manifold, are we talking about the builder of the manifold?

From my own past experience with mis-matched non-factory parts, let me suggest that after verifying that the gaskets do actually cover the ports, both intake and water, on both heads and manifold, that you can use two non-steel lined gaskets as a way to compensate for bad machine work - an alternative to having the manifold sent out for more machine work to make it right.

This was an old school trick in the early days of SBF's used by many engine builders, back when new vendors were coming on line with "exotic" manifolds. Most were installed on factory reworked heads back then. With the onset of all the available manufacturers producing aluminum heads now-a-days, it's a wonder that anything works well if it's put together as a mix-n-match arrangement. Every vendor has different tolerance specs, many stating that a specific gasket be used to compensate for their machine work.
Verify that the mating angles are parallel on all six surfaces: left head, right head and china wall up front - left head, right head and china wall in the rear.

Hang in there my friend, you will overcome this setback . . .

Doc

AC Bill

06-01-2020, 12:33 PM

Rick, just hit the FN thing with a hammer, and get it over with..:p

EZ$

06-01-2020, 01:16 PM

Steve, a bunch of the frustration is being caused by the money. My situation has changed during my build, as I'm sure a lot of people's has. Putting out extra for things that are necessary to complete is one thing, but doing something three times, and it's still not right is nuts. Gaskets have been costing around $50 per set from Summit. They're even more expensive if I order them locally, and then it takes forever to get them. I've just kind of reached my limit on the two steps forward, three steps back.

JohnK, I'll definitely let you know if I'm going to be down that way.

SJDave, Thanks, not sure what the problem is, but if I get back to it I may be giving you a call.

MikeN, The water ports in the heads are quite a bit smaller than the water ports in the gaskets. Wasn't sure this could be a problem because it seemed to seal all the way around the ports, but maybe. Thanks for the link.

Rob, Thanks for the offer. If I get back to this, and you want to come by, I'll have beer ready.

Doc, No, I meant the engine builder. He said that there were issues with making the intake fit at all. I'll keep that "old school trick" in mind. As always, thanks.

I probably should attach some pictures of when I tore it down this last time.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49942514827_a68b15647b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j6frFR)P5270144 (https://flic.kr/p/2j6frFR) by Rick Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156322842@N02/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49942514632_28e97a59c3_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j6frCu)P5270142 (https://flic.kr/p/2j6frCu) by Rick Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156322842@N02/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49942216591_4cdd4b1ab0_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j6dV2R)P5270141 (https://flic.kr/p/2j6dV2R) by Rick Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156322842@N02/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49942216491_da008c2647_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j6dV18)P5270140 (https://flic.kr/p/2j6dV18) by Rick Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156322842@N02/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49942513892_9bff462c6a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j6frpJ)P5270137 (https://flic.kr/p/2j6frpJ) by Rick Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156322842@N02/), on Flickr

GTBradley

06-01-2020, 05:10 PM

I don’t have any advice on how to get through this and I’m sorry for such a longwinded post, but I’d like to share a difficult time I had with a car. I figure with such a sad title to this thread maybe you might take something from it. Im sure a lot of people have similar stories and maybe they’ll share those too:

On my fourteenth birthday I was given a 1963 MGB by my father. It was in very poor condition and almost literally needed everything fixed to make it drivable. “Don’t worry” my dad said, “we’ll have it running in-time for your sixteenth birthday!” By sixteen we had completed most of the work - engine rebuild, electrical, braking, cooling and intake systems, some frame work and interior all done. I had spent every bit of my money and patience to get to this point. After years of work and countless mistakes I was ready to finish this and drive my creation - I instead discovered that the transmission’s first gear teeth were damaged! This knocked the wind out me, but I got back at it after an extended break. I searched for months and finally found a very rare first gear and shaft. I got a super deal on it but it drained my savings, again.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129334&d=1591048504

I’d been through Hell to get to this point, but had renewed optimism. With the new part in hand, I set out with my trusty MGB shop manual (which I still have) and dismantled the 4 speed manual transmission. My dad had left the project the year before, so I was on my own, but I knew I could do it! Besides, I’d made it this far, right? As I slid the fourth gear synchro down I was surprised to see parts fly out in all directions. They took off so fast that I didn’t even know what they were. The manual indicated these were the three springs and three ball bearings that kept the synchro in a detent position. They had traveled far distances in a large garage full of other engine parts, boxes, dirt, etc. (believe me, the space was disaster.) In horror, I looked across the ever-expanding space and felt faint. To me it suddenly looked like the final warehouse scene in the movie Indiana Jones. I know, that movie hadn't come out yet, but good visual don't you think?
Within days I had found two of the three springs and two of the three ball bearings but, after two more weeks of daily searching, I was not successful at finding the rest. Believe me here too when I say the ball bearing and spring were unobtainable and irreplaceable (it was 1979 after all) and I had no money for even a used transmission, and, to make matters worse, no support from my new girlfriend. This was the last straw in a particularly difficult time for me. On my final, failed search I threw a tool at the wall and stormed out.

I didn’t touch the car for six months or more. When I went back to the mostly undisturbed space nearly a year later I found the missing parts, and it only took about an hour’s worth of half-hearted searching - go figure! Anyway, back to work! I put the tranny back together and mated it to the engine. I installed the eng/transmision, made some electrical system connections and promptly forgot the positive grounding system which resulted in turning my new-out-of-the-box and expensive electrical generator into a smoke generator. Those things are tough though and it didn’t harm it one bit. I finally got to the first start-up after four years and man was I excited! First start was a success, but looking under the car revealed that I had forgotten altogether the rear main oil seal and oil was flooding the garage floor. My anger and rage were poised to take over again. Quit I said, you’re missing out on all the good stuff your friends are doing (being young I didn’t have the patience you do now). Instead, I drove to the tool rental shop and got an engine hoist with a knowingly kited check. I feverishly worked all the next day, a Saturday, pulling, separating, repairing and reinstalling the engine and transmission. I had everything back in and working by that evening. My dad came home late from a three day trip and said “how’d the first start up go?” I was still so mad at myself for being an idiot I said “I’m an idiot!” I told him the story and he said, “hold on…you’re telling me you got the engine out and back in in one day by yourself? “Yeah” I said sheepishly. Some of the best, and last words he said to me were “you’ve made it!” “You got through something you didn’t want to, something, at times, you were sure you couldn’t. You could have quit and it wouldn’t have been the end of the world, but you didn’t and now…you are going to remember this for life. You won’t remember the pain and the disappointment in yourself, you’ll just remember how satisfying and fun driving you car was. Now stop your bellyaching and cut the grass!”

He was right. I can’t remember the negative feelings I had, but I do remember how fun it was to finally drive my car.

I'm rooting for you, whatever you do.

GTBradley

BTW, I have kept the damaged first gear for 40 years. it's on my workbench in the garage and reminds me of how tough times can turn out.

EZ$

06-01-2020, 06:46 PM

GTBradley, Great story. I wish I still had the energy of a sixteen year old to keep hammering at this. And while I haven't reached the point where I've drained my savings to build this, I've nearly reached the limit to the amount I can spend in good faith. I will most likely get back to it, but my goal of having it ready for the HB get together in Sept. is definitely history. You certainly had your fill of set backs on that project. I just hope I can convince myself that mine is worth finishing. While I used to dream about driving it, now I just want to finish it, which is not a good attitude to have, so I'll have to regroup. Thanks for the story.

Norm B

06-01-2020, 10:37 PM

Two things I noticed from your pictures.

1) It appears that your intake is bottoming out on the China wall because the RTV is completely squished out in one section of the manifold. Maybe some stuck to the block and it just looks like it is all squished out.129359

2) This area is a little fuzzy in your picture but, it appears the crossover coolant port is way to close to the bolt hole. Is your leak on the passenger side rear of the manifold?129360

Do you have a clearer picture of the passenger side of the manifold?

Norm

EZ$

06-01-2020, 11:01 PM

Norm, the RTV that is missing was stuck to the china wall. It was actually complete across that section. I don't think it's leaking at those points. You can actually see the staining/saturation from the coolant at the front and rear water passages on the gaskets. Like I said, this is without any movement of coolant. I believe the area that you focused on is the one water port on the intake that does not actually have a port. This is something that I've never really understood. I believe that the majority of the leak has been at the rear sides of the intake. Coolant has run off the rear of the block, and down the bellhousing, but also down through the oil passages to the pan. I'll check my pictures to see if there is a clearer one.

bobl

06-02-2020, 01:03 AM

When I installed the Speedmaster 8 stack on my engine there was interference between the valve cover flange on the heads and the intake. I had to grind a slight bevel on the intake to get it to sit down flush. You mentioned your engine builder had a tough time getting the intake to fit, so that popped into my head. From the photos it looks like the intake is not clamping down solidly on the heads. Hope you get excited to work on it again. Wish I was closer. I'd love to help you sort it out.

Bob

GTBradley

06-02-2020, 09:48 AM

Well, that's actually positive news. Glad to hear you'll be getting back to at some point. Yeah, that story was just a nice revisit of my past, it doesn't apply to you or anyone else except that no matter how difficult this gets, it is all made better by experiencing the final product. Trust me, it is a life changing thing to drive one of these cars into a parking lot full of show cars and have everyone watch you park your creation.

EZ$

06-02-2020, 10:25 AM

bobl, Yeah, that's exactly what had to be done to the intake. It's still a PITA to put on, and remove, the valve covers. I'm not sure if more could be taken from this area without compromising the intake. I'd be curious to hear how you addressed the four center bolts/studs. Even with relieving the area around where the nuts go on the studs, it's near impossible to just get the nut on, never mind trying to tighten them down! Thanks.

GTBradley, That story helped more than you know. These are the kinds of things that I've thought about since I started this project. Just so frustrated right now, it's hard to even imagine any more. Thanks.

Norm, I don't have any other shots of that location on the intake. That is the one location where there is actually no water port, but the gasket is cut for one.

Norm B

06-02-2020, 11:53 AM

Have you tried these type of nuts https://www.jegs.com/i/ARP/070/301-8343/10002/-1. Don’t know what thread your studs are but these are available in a wide range of sizes and threads and are great for use in low clearance areas. Slip a good washer underneath and you should be able to properly torque everything.

HTH
Norm

Papa

06-02-2020, 12:17 PM

Rick,

The look of the stack injection is the ultimate when it comes to these cars. However, just an idea to help you move past this. Take that intake, FAST ECU, and all and sell it. Use the money to do a TBI setup (Sniper, etc.), and get the car running and driving. Then, when you are ready, look at going back to stacks down the road when you are ready to do it. Look at the higher end systems and maybe having it done by a speed shop that can make it work for your application.

Dave

Sdonnel

06-02-2020, 12:58 PM

This may sound crazy, but it could yield some information. Given that there appears to uncertainty about the clamping of the intake to the block and heads, have you thought of using modelling clay to identify and variation in the mating of the parts? Something like a piston to valve check when building an engine. Obviously, it would compress out of the way when you put everything together, but it might tell you where your gaps are and possible leak sources. While it might take time putting clay in all the places that would normally be occupied by a gasket, the results may tell you something.

Just a thought.

Scott

1932

06-02-2020, 02:06 PM

The setbacks can have a very bad way with some of us! As anyone that reads my build knows i can and do build a lot of different parts and have felt able to make things work. But when i lost engine with two hot pistons it is not only the money and time but now i wonder if i can make things work. Am having new engine built but is hard to get parts and work done at this time. Will be back!

EZ$

06-02-2020, 02:24 PM

Norm, I considered going to studs all around, not just the center four that have to be studs, to see if it would help in taking the pucker factor out of torqueing the intake down. The ARP stud kit ends up around $100, and I was having trouble justifying the purchase. Canton, I believe has a set of SS studs and nuts that are around $25 that I looked at, but i got talked out of those. Wasn't aware that the ARP 12 point nuts were available separately. I'd still need to get the other eight studs installed.

Dave, believe me I considered it, but I doubt that I'd get anywhere near what I need from the sale of this setup to be able to afford to get into something new. Plus there is the issue of having to rewire for a new EFI which, trust me, for me was no joke to accomplish. Not sure I'd be up to that much more work. And if I changed setups, to a carb style EFI, I can guarantee you that I'd never swap it back to stacks, I'd just live with it. Unfortunately cost has become an issue at this point.

Scott, when this happened this time around, I wondered if I should have done something along those lines, but I'm not sure I want to go through that on something I paid this much for in the first place.

Thanks guys. I hate to be so negative, but every time I think about this I get more pissed off.

1932, didn't see your post until I put my response up. This is exactly where my mind has gone on this issue. I feel your pain. Best of luck with everything.

Norm B

06-03-2020, 11:35 AM

Rick, looking at your pictures again, there is definitely something blocking your manifold from sitting down all the way onto the heads. The RTV you put around the water ports should be squished so thin that is translucent and you can see the aluminum head through it if the manifold torqued down correctly.

Try setting it in place without gaskets and slide it back and forth. Remove it and look for rub marks. You can try marking suspect areas with a sharpie and repeat the process to confirm the problem area. The sharpie will rub off leaving bare aluminum.

EZ$

06-03-2020, 01:21 PM

Norm, you're probably right. It'll be a while before I get back into it, and tear it back down. When that happens, I'll definitely test that out to see if that's my issue. Thanks for all your help.

Railroad

06-03-2020, 02:05 PM

Just food for thought, I had an intake with a sand hole in it. It was a vacuum leak, not water. Gave me a heck of a time.
Bright light in a dark room, would be my first method.

EZ$

06-03-2020, 03:05 PM

GoDadGo

06-03-2020, 03:23 PM

Railroad, this is definitely a water leak. Coolant in the oil pan, and dripping down the block. The engine ran great, other than the idle being too high, but that could have been because of the leak in the manifold. Not sure I'll ever really know. Couldn't hurt to check though, so again, if I pull this apart, just one more thing to check. Thanks.

Are You 100% Sure That The Intake Is The Culprit?

I had an issue a couple of years back where I had a leak and I chased it much like you are doing.
In my instance, the block needed to be replaced because my Former Motor Mentor butchered it.
Could you possibly have a leak in the lifter valley or maybe the bottom of the block?

I Hope Your Fix Is An Easy One; However, Mine Was Not!

https://youtu.be/IGYtX-3p7xk

Howard

06-03-2020, 03:36 PM

I feel your pain. After my car was completed and on the road I kept running into problems with blowing head gaskets. I started out with a 408W and a stack injection system. Almost from the day I got the car on the road I had nothing but problems. I remember taking a buddy for a drive down a country road, and got on the gas only to see white smoke pouring out behind me. That needed a tow on a flatbed to get home. Pulled the engine and trans out, pulled it all apart, and put it all back in again - only to have it happen again. I think I ended up pulling the engine/trans about 3 times for blowing head gaskets. I was so close to shoving that POS off a cliff. I dumped so much money into it trying to get it tuned right, and get it to run right - I'm talking thousands of dollars plus I had to listen to all the crap I got from my local cobra buddies about pulling engines every time I needed to do an oil change. The engine never ran long enough that I actually had to do an oil change - it always crapped out before it was time to change the oil. I finally gave up on the stack injection system - looked great but never ran right. So instead I sold it off, and replaced it with a QF 750 DP carb. I also figured out that the engine builder (no one on these forums - a local guy) had given me heads that were giving me over 12:1 compression - aarrrgghhh!!!! After that the car finally ran the way it was supposed to. Then I blew the transmission! Pulled it out and put in a new road race transmission in as I like to track the car - big mistake - it sucked to drive on the freeway. Finally decided to get a Dart block based 427W, and a T56 transmission to get both OD gears. Now the car is awesome!! Over 25k miles on it, and this summer it's getting some TLC - new radiator, new power steering pump, new Wilwood pedal box, and a color change!

So that's a long way of saying that frustration and doing things over and over and still not getting it to run right is sometimes part of the journey - I also threw a 3/8" ratchet through my garage door - been there done that but managed not to take my frustrations out on the car.

I would suggest getting some local builders over just to look at things - sometimes a fresh set of eyes looking at it can really help.

EZ$

06-03-2020, 05:16 PM

Howard, Holy Crap! You have more patience than I ever would have. I think I would have found that cliff. I'm glad that you got things working the way you wanted. It just sucks that you had to pump so much cash into it to reach that point. Unfortunately, I'm not in the position to put that kind of money into this right now. When I decide to get back to this I'm definitely going to have some local builders, who are probably a hell of a lot smarter, and better at this than I am, come by to check things out. Thanks for the encouragement.

rich grsc

06-03-2020, 07:11 PM

What is the part # of the intake gasket? Is it the steel core gasket?

EZ$

06-03-2020, 07:24 PM

Rich, yeah the 1262S3. Unfortunately, even though it matches the intake ports, the water ports on the gasket are huge in comparison to the ports on the heads. Not sure if they have a different steel core gasket that would match the intake ports, but have a smaller water port. I sent an email to RHS to find what gasket they normally recommend for these heads, and they came back with a "Flatout Gasket" #8011. Never heard of them, but that's not saying much. It's a composite gasket with a coating. Don't remember the full description. Water ports look smaller, but they're shaped strange. They also offer the gasket in .030, 0060, and .120 thicknesses, but the thinner and thicker gaskets are not listed as composite. I'm not sure what they mean when they say "composite".

EZ$

06-06-2020, 03:12 PM

So I've cooled down a bit, helped by the responses that I've received here, and all the encouragement. I'd be curious to find out if anyone has ever heard of, or used a Flatout Gasket product. I've got a request for info to Fel-Pro to find out if they have a similar steel lined gasket that has the same size intake ports, but with smaller water ports to more closely match the heads and intake manifold that I'm dealing with. I'll probably be pulling it apart in a week or so, and get everything cleaned up, and then contact a couple of local guys who have offered to help. I know they will have way more knowledge on this than I ever will, so hopefully they will be able to spot what is causing the issue with the leaks. I'm concerned that I'm going to have to disassemble the entire intake, removing all the throttle bodies and linkage, etc., to have the intake properly inspected regarding fit to eliminate all the possible issues. This possibility makes me sick to my stomach because I hate the thought of trying to put the puzzle all back together. I guess I have to take the attitude of my FIL, who I worked for for about 35 years. When I was concerned about taking a piece of equipment apart, and then reassembling it, he would ask me "was the guy who built it smarter than I was?" When I was younger that used to piss me off, but I learned that he was correct that basically you can do whatever you set your mind to. I just have to keep that in the back of my mind through all this.

Anyhow, I want to thank everyone who responded. I'm not sure I would be considering moving forward without all your support. Thank You!

If anyone has any info on Flatout Gaskets that they could share, I'd appreciate that as well.

GoDadGo

06-06-2020, 04:00 PM

Maybe this will make you feel better or possibly not:

https://youtu.be/Vhbftk4AP4k

https://youtu.be/-nVDzIjSjh8

We've all been there and we will keep cheering you on!

You've Got This Brother!

EZ$

06-06-2020, 04:11 PM

GoDadGo, I remember when you were going through all this, so I know you've been there. Thanks

GThompson

06-06-2020, 04:32 PM

I feel your pain Rick. I’m 13 years into my Daytona build. I ran into a similar coolant leak issue. 2 years ago I saw coolant running down the front and back of the heads on the driver-side of the engine. I’ve got Webers on this engine, the first engine I’ve ever built, a 302 with Brodix heads. I put it together with pre-enjoyed heads that had been shaved a couple of times. When I saw the coolant I decided to pull the intake manifold off and was NOT happy with what I found; there was coolant in the pockets on the cylinder heads between the intake ports. My thought was that I had porous castings that were leaking. So I pulled the heads and took them to a local shop for pressure-testing. They checked out good. So I ordered some ARP studs (was using ARP bolts before) and a set of Felpro gaskets the shop recommended (multi-layer stainless steel). Then I started doing some more investigation once the rust was cleaned up in the 2 rear driver-side cylinders (yeah, I know, the right thing to do is to pull it all apart... this is still a learning expedition, the next engine will be better...). I ordered new intake gaskets, fat 1/8” thick ones thinking I needed them. Then I set the bare intake manifold back on the engine. I found that the bolt holes didn’t line up, the threaded holes in the heads were about 1/8” closer together from side-to-side than on the manifold. Based on that I’m thinking my heads had been shaved a LOT!!! See, as the heads are shaved, when they get bolted down, the manifold holes do move closer together. I had to slot the manifold bolt holes with my mill so that I could bolt it straight down rather than biased to one side. There was actually about 1/16” gap between the manifold and the head on the driver’s side, it couldn’t seal the coolant passages (or the ports for that matter). Once I slotted the holes the bolt holes all lined up and the coolant leaks were gone (well, until I drilled a hole through the radiator yesterday modifying the sheetmetal under the radiator, but that’s a story for another day...).

Stick with it. They’re awewsome cars and you’ll have the joy of knowing you fixed it yourself.

EZ$

06-06-2020, 05:25 PM

George, thanks for that description of what you had to deal with. I had tried to use guide studs in the corner positions the first time I re-did the gasket, but the studs would not line up with the holes in the intake, so I abandoned that method, and just used the four studs in the center bolts that I have to have because of the design of the intake manifold. Anyhow, what I'm saying is that I'll check out that possible discrepancy when I take it apart. I'm glad you were able to figure it out. It sucks that you needed to, but good that you did! The self-inflicted setbacks really suck, but at least you know for sure that you caused them. I have a number of them that I sorted out along the way. Thanks.

Norm B

06-06-2020, 09:55 PM

I had tried to use guide studs in the corner positions the first time I re-did the gasket, but the studs would not line up with the holes in the intake, so I abandoned that method, and just used the four studs in the center bolts that I have to have because of the design of the intake manifold. Anyhow, what I'm saying is that I'll check out that possible discrepancy when I take it apart.
I believe we have found your problem and it maybe exactly as George described. There is no way a bolt that is jamming on an angle is going to torque correctly to seat the manifold on the heads. You need to machine the holes in the intake so it can slide down over studs without resistance until it contacts the heads. Any of the steel core gaskets that match your intake port size will suffice. Don't get too hung up on the coolant passage holes as long as the is good contact area on both the heads and intake they should seal with just a little help from a sealant.

Glad you're back at it.

Norm

EZ$

06-06-2020, 11:01 PM

Norm, I'm going to have to determine exactly what is causing the interference. If it turns out to just be enlarging, or elongating the holes in the intake, so that I can use studs instead of bolts, that would be almost too easy to hope for. I'll check to make sure the intake is seating flush on the heads. I just pray that this will be the last time I have to do this. I'll have to get another FelPro gasket ordered tomorrow because Summit is saying that there's going to be another delay in getting the gasket set. Don't know what's going on at FelPro, but the last set took a month to receive. Thanks.

Big Blocker

06-07-2020, 11:17 AM

That all sounds fine and good but let's step back here just a bit. Are your heads new, or used with the possibility of them being milled? Is the stack manifold new, or used, again with the possibility of it being milled to match some other [brand] heads then you are using?

OR - is this all just a case of piss-poor manufacturing by either the head vendor or the manifold vendor? bolt holes that don't match up from the beginning make me wonder just what is going on here . . .

Without the chance of used parts of unknown origin being pieced together here, I have to lean toward bad manufacturing. New parts from reputable vendors should not give you miss-aligned bolt holes or mating surfaces.

IF this was an issue from the git-go, THAT was the time to question everything. Should have asked Gordon just WHAT was the issue with setting the manifold when he put it together and WHAT did he have to do to get it to work? ( obviously it didn't ).

Still think you need to clean up everything and place the manifold on the engine and feeler gauge the gaps all around. I'm still leaning toward the manifold bottoming out on the china wall(s) way before the sides are close enough for a standard gasket will fill the void. Your largest gap should be the china walls - easily filled with RTV. Studs should line up perfectly, ALL of them.

Once again I have to say; there aren't many reasons that a manifold won't sit tight against the heads. Find that reason and you'll be home free.

Doc

EZ$

06-07-2020, 01:11 PM

Doc, all new parts. It may be bad manufacturing practice on the parts, I don't know. It definitely isn't that it is bottoming out on the china walls, as there was still about a 1/16-1/8" of RTV at those locations when I pulled it last time, (see pictures). I'm afraid that there will be some discrepancy in the intake to head surface contact that is keeping the gasket from totally sealing. Maybe a high spot, again I don't know. Hopefully, once I get it apart again, I'll have some other sets of eyes on it, and some help that has better knowledge of what to, and how to, check for the possible issues. When I've done this previously, I've ASSUMED that everything was fine, and I just needed to get the gasket in correctly. I refuse to believe that I'm that incompetent that I can't get this done correctly! We'll see in a couple of weeks, I hope.

boat737

06-07-2020, 04:57 PM

Just trying to learn this myself... so... Excuse the question...

Is there a difference between a 302 based block and a 351 based block when it comes to mating the heads and intake manifold? That is, can the heads fit right and the manifold nor, or visa versa? Stated differently, are the heads and/or intake specific to either a 302 or 351?

EZ$

06-07-2020, 06:33 PM

Boat, I believe that the 302 and 351 intake manifolds and heads have differences. What they are, hell I don't know. I wish I had abetter handle on all this stuff. A million years ago, when I was a teenager, I had, and worked on mostly Chevys. Don't get any ideas GoDadGo! That was the only time I ever swapped an intake manifold.

JohnK

06-07-2020, 06:45 PM

Boat, I think the heads between the 289/302 and 351W are physically the same dimensions, though depending on displacement, cam selection, etc. there are differences in valve and port sizes among different aftermarket heads. The 351W is a taller deck than a 289/302 so the distance between heads is wider and therefore the intake manifolds are different widths.

EZ$

06-07-2020, 10:07 PM

Thank you John. I knew someone would have better info than me!

By the way, what's with the Fel-Pro 162S3 intake gaskets? The last set I ordered from Summit took a month to get. I checked today, and if I order today, they'll ship on 7/18. I don't get it. Oh well, I guess it's going to take a lot longer to finish this than I thought.

boat737

06-08-2020, 01:48 AM

I guess the reason I asked, is it possible to have the wrong intake (or heads) on the block? Just thinking out loud.

Jeff Kleiner

06-08-2020, 05:33 AM

FYI, 302 and 351 intakes are different due to the higher deck height of the 351. Heads are the same EXCEPT for the head bolt hole sizes; the smaller Windsors use 7/16" and the 351 uses 1/2". 260/289/302 heads can be used on a 351 block by drilling out the bolt holes and conversely the 351 heads can be installed on the smaller blocks by using either bolt hole sleeves or shouldered head bolts. Virtually all aftermarket heads are produced with 1/2" holes.

Jeff

rich grsc

06-08-2020, 06:35 AM

EZ$

06-08-2020, 11:09 AM

SJDave

06-08-2020, 03:13 PM

Jeff, again, thanks for the clarification. I was not aware of most of that info.

Rich, when you say, "order the Ford gasket", what exactly do you mean? Contact a Ford dealer parts department? The question would be, what gasket set would I be asking for, and will it match up to the ports in the heads? I'm still trying to find out about Flatout Gaskets. Theirs is recommended by RHS as a match to the heads that I have. Everything looks the same as the Fel-Pro, except for the water ports, which are shaped kind of strange. I've been told to use a metal lined gasket, I assume for durability(??), but it appears that Fel-Pro is the only one that makes one but the water ports are way too large. Not sure if that should be an issue or not.

Hi Rick,

When I switched to Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake last year from Victor Jr., I used this Felpro gasket from Summit Racing. It was compatible with the RHS heads but as you say it's a bit larger around the water ports, but mine sealed fine and has absolutely no leaks. I didn't use the china wall seals, just went with Black RTV.

Fel-Pro Performance Intake Manifold Gasket Sets 1262S3

rich grsc

06-08-2020, 03:21 PM

Hi Rick,

When I switched to Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake last year from Victor Jr., I used this Felpro gasket from Summit Racing. It was compatible with the RHS heads but as you say it's a bit larger around the water ports, but mine sealed fine and has absolutely no leaks. I didn't use the china wall seals, just went with Black RTV.

Fel-Pro Performance Intake Manifold Gasket Sets 1262S3
Yes that is the correct and same gasket

Jeff, again, thanks for the clarification. I was not aware of most of that info.

Rich, when you say, "order the Ford gasket", what exactly do you mean? Contact a Ford dealer parts department? The question would be, what gasket set would I be asking for, and will it match up to the ports in the heads? I'm still trying to find out about Flatout Gaskets. Theirs is recommended by RHS as a match to the heads that I have. Everything looks the same as the Fel-Pro, except for the water ports, which are shaped kind of strange. I've been told to use a metal lined gasket, I assume for durability(??), but it appears that Fel-Pro is the only one that makes one but the water ports are way too large. Not sure if that should be an issue or not.

Summit sell the same gasket (1262S) but under the ford brand FMS-M-9439-A50. It is under Ford Motor Sports name so it costs $20 more ????:mad:???.

EZ$

06-08-2020, 04:49 PM

Dave, I have to remember to proofread my posts. I had actually meant to type Fel-Pro 1262S3, but didn't. This is the gasket that I've been using, with black RTV at the china walls.

Rich, thanks for the info. I was actually able to find the gasket at Jegs. It turned out that the difficult item that I was trying to get were the ARP studs. They are out until early July on these as well, but I found them in stock at a different location.

So it looks like I'll be able to try this again around the end of the month.

rich grsc

06-08-2020, 07:49 PM

You can get 2 1/2" studs from McMaster-Carr for a buck a piece, and 12 point flange nuts.

EZ$

06-08-2020, 08:42 PM

Rich, I just went on McMaster, cause I didn't think of them for this option. It turns out that the studs are basically $2, and the 12 point nuts are just over $2, so just shy of $50 for both, and then there's the washers. I got the ARP set for $51, plus shipping, so I'm OK with that. Thanks for reminding me to check McMaster when I'm looking for stuff like this.

eaglecook

06-09-2020, 08:32 PM

EZ, I just moved from San Ramon to Colorado, but I have a buddy that still lives there that is seriously a master mechanic. He's been building hot rods for 40 years or so. He helped me rebuild my '53 Chevy Pick up from the ground up a few years ago. He loves Cobras (he used to have one), and I know he would be happy to come lend a hand. Just say the word and I'll put you in touch with him. I was stumped a few times during my build and he was always the guy to walk in, make a few adjustments and everything fell into place. As has been said before, often times two heads are better than one.

Sometimes it takes a village.

Best of luck buddy.

EZ$

06-09-2020, 09:46 PM

eaglecook, i really appreciate the offer. I'm trying to get everything put together, get it taken apart again, and the get some people here that are way better at this than I could ever be. If you think he would be interested in lending his experience, I can use all the help that I can. Thank you.

eaglecook

06-10-2020, 12:00 PM

Hey Rick, Just spoke to him and he'd be happy to help. He said to give you his contact info so as soon as I can figure out how to PM you I'll send that along. Please don't hesitate to call him. He is a super cool guy, very generous with his time and knowledge and he loves cars.

eaglecook

06-10-2020, 09:33 PM

I sent you a PM with Mike's contact info.:cool:

EZ$

06-11-2020, 10:38 AM

Eaglecook, I just replied to your PM. Thanks for all the help.

Al_C

06-12-2020, 09:50 AM

Yay! Things are taking a positive turn! I'm glad you're back at it.

CraigS

06-12-2020, 10:48 AM

Me too. Over the years so many people have helped me and I have been able to pay it back by helping others when I can. So many times just a second set of eyes w/ different skills and different experience will combine for a solution. I can't wait for your post describing a Saturday spent w/ friends figuring this out.

John Dol

06-12-2020, 11:52 AM

I've been at mine for 11 years now. And every time I thought I was done something else would go wrong. I have replaced my hole engine and finally got it on the road and I just noticed a coolant leak. Turns out my water pump gasket is no good. So I have to tear the front accessories off again to get to that and rebuild after. I could write a book about all the ups and downs I went through including losing jobs and moving cross country twice. The feeling I got when I was actually driving the damn thing made up for it and then some.
I have stepped away from it so I can muster the want and belief to get yet another issue resolved and I'm focusing on the honey do list for now. But I know that once I get back into it this too will get resolved.
If I had a swear jar in the garage I could've probably bought an original by now!!;)
Have you considered getting a new top end or at least a different manifold? I see you have a nice 8 stack which I'm jealous of but maybe you can sell it, recoup some money and go with a sniper set up.

Stay with though, this is a marathon not a sprint as I have found out the hard way!

John

Big Blocker

06-12-2020, 04:04 PM

EZ$,

Any progress on the manifold fit issue yet? Have you disassembled it yet to place on the block for measuring of the gaps.

A thought came to mind; know anyone with a bore scope that can look into the intake runners or under the manifold with it resting in place? A bright light and a bore scope might just reveal an area that is bottoming out or has a gap that is a machining error.

Just been brain storming this, trying to help out . . . went over the pictures under a microscope (just kidding) trying to see something that would jump out at me that would explain all this trouble you are going thru.

Doc

EZ$

06-12-2020, 06:32 PM

Well my wife and I along with my brother and his wife decided that we needed a getaway after all this lockdown, so we left Wednesday for Napa to wine taste, eat, and just generally have a good time. Our timing was perfect, as the wineries just opened up this week, but almost no one was up there. The restaurants are open with indoor and outdoor seating, and other than the PITA mask crap, we had a great time. Just got back today.

Al, Thanks, but don't get too excited! I should have the rest of the pieces I need to redo this by next week. Then I can start taking it apart AGAIN! I'm hopeful, but...we'll see.

Craig, Honestly, if it weren't for all the help I've received on the forums, I'd be nowhere. I'm hoping the "second set of eyes" will be what I need to fix this. I will definitely let everyone know how it all works out.

John, I followed your build when you were going through that issue, and it made me sick to think of what you were going through. As far as the swear jar, I'm right there with you, but as my wife has said, at least I gave the neighbor kids a vocabulary lesson! I have considered those things, but I don't want to go there if I don't have too. I have gotten an offer for a new intake manifold for free, so that may be plan "B".

Doc, as I mentioned, hopefully this next week for disassembly. I'm not sure I know anyone with a bore scope, so I'm not sure about that path. I do have a tube of Permatex's "Non-drying Prussian Blue", that I was thinking about putting on one surface, set the intake manifold, tighten a few bolts, take it apart, and see if there are any areas where it doesn't transfer to the other surface. That may help to determine if there are any specific problem areas. I really appreciate your input, so keep brainstorming, because my brain seems to have taken a vacation!

Thanks to everyone. I will try to connect with those that have offered to come by to help, and see if I can put a time together that would work for everyone.

ChasNMe

06-15-2020, 08:19 PM

if you have it you probably know already but . . . . wear gloves with the Prussian blue, if it is like it was 20 years ago when I was on subs, whatever it touches will be blue for 2 weeks no matter how hard you scrub

Howard

06-16-2020, 10:04 AM

JohnK

06-16-2020, 10:37 AM

If you're interested in getting a bore scope, you can pick one up for $30 to $40 on Amazon that works with your cell phone. I don't have one, but it seems like a cost effective option if you think you might need one.

They definitely come in handy from time to time. When I couldn't figure out where exactly the dipstick was interfering with the baffle in the oil pan of my coyote, I stuffed one of those through one of the threaded ports in the oil pan and immediately saw where the problem was.

Big Blocker

06-16-2020, 11:01 AM

EZ$,

Go here for that Amazon item - cheaper than doing this over n over: --> https://www.amazon.com/DEPSTECH-Ultra-Thin-Inspection-Semi-Rigid-Adpater-16-5ft/dp/B0836XWPJH/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=borescope&qid=1592323044&sr=8-9

These types of tools are extremely valuable when doing engine work. Also GREAT for finding that part you dropped that can't be found no matter how long you look . . . Ha Ha Ha. Don't ask me why I know that little bit of info.

Doc

EZ$

06-16-2020, 11:04 AM

ChasNMe, I've had it for quite awhile. I remember that from the last time I used it, so yeah, gloves are definitely necessary.

Howard, Hey thanks for that idea. I'll definitely check that out!

John, I guess it would be one more bullet in the gun, so to speak.

Thanks guys. Still waiting for the gasket to be delivered.

Doc, thanks for the link. you must have been typing at the same time as me.

EZ$

06-22-2020, 03:32 PM

OK, the gasket is supposed to show up today or tomorrow, so I decided that I should get it apart again, clean up the parts, and install the new ARP intake studs. Got everything removed, but the manifold won't budge. I must have managed to glue it down pretty well. Question is, I'm not sure how hard I can pry on it, and where it would be best to pry from. I definitely don't want to do any damage with everything being aluminum. It's been tough getting it to break loose before, but this time it's ridiculous! Any ideas on how I should proceed would be greatly appreciated.

Papa

06-22-2020, 04:15 PM

Rick,

If it's the silicone/RTV/whatever and there are no obstructions, try to use a piece of fishing line to saw the parts apart. If you can get the line under a corner to get it started, it should go pretty easily.

Dave

SJDave

06-22-2020, 04:58 PM

Hi Rick

Once the distributor is out, I usually use the exposed steel block around the distributor hole to lever a 90 degree pry bar under the intake. No big tugs, just keep putting pressure then releasing it to peel up the silicone at the front wall, once it is loose keep alternating pressure to slowly release the gasket between the intake and the heads.

The thermostat housing is also a good place to pry under to lift the intake, a lot of metal there!

EZ$

06-22-2020, 05:08 PM

Dave, I got the front to break away, but the back, at the china wall, does not want to let go. There's no way, that I can figure, to get any fishing line through. And unfortunately, there's absolutely no spot at the back to get any leverage at all. It got to be about 100 in my garage, so I had to stop for now. I guess I'm getting too old and out of shape for this! I'll take a look at it again tomorrow morning when it's cooler. I'm trying to not get pissed off by any stupid crap like this, so better to step away for awhile, and try to come up with a plan. I know that if I can get a small tear in the RTV, it's going to let go really quick. Thanks for the input.

EZ$

06-22-2020, 05:12 PM

SJDave, I must have been typing when you responded. That's exactly what I ended up doing. I got the front loose, and the gaskets from the heads, but the rear china wall does not want to release. I'll probably try to slide a razor blade, or ???, through the RTV at the back. Once it's broken, it should let go pretty easily, I hope.

Big Blocker

06-22-2020, 08:27 PM

Rick,

Get one of those "Eagle beak" type cutting blades (some call them carpet knives) and drag it across the rear china wall. It's what we used back in the day of 289's and early 302's.

Doc

Old Timer

06-22-2020, 09:21 PM

^^^
The hook knife blades for a box knife, works well. Great for windshields also.

EZ$

06-22-2020, 11:51 PM

Doc and OldTimer, thanks for the suggestions. I've got a 5-in-one that if I sharpen the hook point I think I can get it into that joint. I'll give that a try in the morning. Then I can get everything cleaned up, and start testing to see why it's not sealing up. Thanks guys.

Dewey McBride

06-23-2020, 08:37 PM

EZ$

06-23-2020, 09:18 PM

Dewey, Thanks for the invite. I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I only live about a mile from the Clementine's here in San Ramon. I have been to the breakfast a couple of times, but something always seems to get in the way. I'll try to remember to make it down more often.

Megascott

06-24-2020, 10:24 PM

I just happen to come across this thread searching for another tidbit of information. As chance has it, I happen to have my engine out and on the stand and the intake off, and guess what? I have a spare Speedmaster intake, as well as the Blue Thunder Cobra intake which i am using on this engine. I have two engines, one with Pro comp heads, and this one which has Dart pro 1 heads. The Speedmaster intake Barely fits in between the rocker cover rails on each side of the head. The Blue thunder intake sits with plenty of clearance in this area. I tried fitting the Speedmaster intake in my Pro comp headed engine and i found that I needed to machine the outer portion of the runners to allow my rocker covers to fit, but I ended up using an old F4B and a Holley EFI throttle body on it instead. Seems to me, depending on the design of the head and machining tolerances, that it is possible there could be interference in this area. Might be worth checking out. Scott

Edit: Forgot to mention, there are no gaskets in these pictures.

130477

EZ$

06-24-2020, 10:52 PM

Megascott

06-25-2020, 09:43 PM

Megascott, thanks for that info, and the pictures. The intake was machined in the area that shows in your picture as having interference. I have a feeling that it is going to need some additional work before I reassemble it again. Right now it's almost impossible to even remove the valve covers without them binding on the edges of the intake. My plan is to get the intake off, clean up the gaskets and the RTV, and use prussian blue to see if there are any spots that are not seating properly. At that point I hope that I can figure what has been causing the issue. Thanks again for posting that info. It helps to see that mine is not the only one with this issue.

No worries, i just happened to come across your post and thought any info might help and since these intakes have a history of problems, i thought i would share. even my Blue thunder intake needed almost a 1/4" taken off two sides of each intake port to match my heads, apparently they are cast for very small stock type head ports. anyway, I hope you get down to what the problem is...I'd be interested in any new developments. Thanks!

ACCar-guy

06-26-2020, 12:49 PM

Hello EZ,

I have had a builder in El Cajon (San Diego) work on my FFR cars in the past and he has finished/upgraded a number of projects for others. I can provide his contact info if you like.

ACCar-Guy.

EZ$

06-26-2020, 04:57 PM

ACCar-Guy, Thanks for the offer. If it gets to that point I may get back to you. I'm hoping that I can, with the help of some local forum members, finally get this thing sealed up, so that I can move on to try to finish it up.

On that note, I got the intake off the engine this morning, and cleaned up the surfaces on it, and the engine. Tried installing the new ARP studs at the corners so that I could just set the intake back on the engine without gaskets, and I came across my latest self-inflicted issue. When I heli-coiled the bolt holes, way back the first time I went through this exercise, I apparently got a small deviation to the way the bolt or stud would sit on the front two bolt locations. It's not off by much, but it's enough to keep the intake from being able to fit over the new studs. I removed the two front studs, so now it's just the two in the back and the four original ones in the center four locations. The intake dropped on with no problem, but it appears that it is not mating to the head surface, because it moves around a bit too easily. I'm not sure what is the issue, or interference, but it got too hot in the garage, and I got hungry, so I put off the prussian blue test until tomorrow. Eventually, I'll have to either open the front holes on the intake a bit wider, so it will slide over the studs, or I'll have to use bolts in these two locations. I tried a carbide grinder bit for my dremel, but it didn't seem to be doing much. Anyone got any suggestions for slotting those two front holes? There's plenty of stock there to cut into, so no worries about compromising the strength, or the sealing capability at that point.

SJDave

06-26-2020, 05:24 PM

Good progress Rick,

I can throw you intake on my Bridgeport Milling Machine and slot those holes for you, no problem.. If you want to remove some of the intake runner at the same time to clear the valve covers, I can do that also pretty easily. I also have some modeling clay if you want to go that way in terms of seeing what the gap is around the water ports on the intake, just put a small ball of clay at various spots and lightly torque it down.

I'm not busy tomorrow the 27th, I could come up around 9am if you would like another pair of hands.

Cheers,
Dave

EZ$

06-26-2020, 05:51 PM

Dave, Just sent you a PM. Thanks

bobl

06-26-2020, 11:22 PM

You can't beat an offer like that! One thought I had. If the front 2 studs are angled different than the others, after slotting the holes you should probably face the intake slightly, using the stud as a guide so the nuts seat flush all the way around. You mention the intake moved around some. Was the gasket in place at that time? If not the intake might have been bottoming out on the china rail. Sounds like you're getting close.

Bob

Nigel Allen

06-27-2020, 01:30 AM

Everyone needs a Dave nearby. What a legend.

Cheers Nigel in South Oz

EZ$

06-27-2020, 09:38 AM

Bob, I have to agree! I'll check with Dave, since I don't have a clue, about facing the surface of the intake where the nuts would seat. There was no gasket when I set it back in place, and that is kind of what it felt like when I tried moving it around.

Nigel, That is an understatement!

ACCar-guy

06-27-2020, 11:36 AM

Sounds like good progress. There is another guy in Vegas that has worked with Stacked Injection cars as well. Have not dealt with him but saw his work at a car show there.

EZ$

06-27-2020, 11:04 PM

ACCar-guy, Good progress on the car today. SJDave came up this morning, and proceeded to show me how to go about checking the mating surfaces for improper gaps. Then checked the surface of the heads for flatness. They were in good shape. Checked the intake manifold, and one corner was a bit suspect. We came up with a game plan for me moving forward to get this thing to finally seal up. I got the new ARP studs installed, and got the intake to finally slide down over them, and it seems to have seated really well. I'm waiting on some 12pt. nuts from McMaster that should be here on Monday, and then I try to install this thing for, hopefully, the last time. We'll see, I'm keeping my fingers crossed! As a note, huge shout out to SJDave! I had one of the best days working on this car since I started.

Papa

06-27-2020, 11:12 PM

EZ$

06-28-2020, 12:48 AM

Dave, thanks for your vote of confidence. Like I said I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I hope to have the result by the middle of next week.

EZ$

07-03-2020, 02:10 PM

Well, thought I'd give everyone an update. Got the gasket installed a couple of days ago. Just snugged it down on initial install. Came back the next day and torqued it down to the recommended 15 ft/lbs. I then waited until today to refill the cooling system, borrowed a cooling system pressure tester, hooked it up, and proceeded to pressurize the system. Unfortunately, the pressure dropped a few PSI, and there is coolant behind the intake on the ledge of the block behind the rear china wall, and a puddle started to form under the car at the back of the block. Now to figure what, and if, I do anything more to deal with this. The one thing on this car that I thought that I would not have to think about has turned into the biggest cluster I've ever dealt with.

Oh, I hope everyone has a great 4th of July. Stay safe.

1932

07-03-2020, 03:19 PM

Well hell!

Papa

07-03-2020, 04:35 PM

:( Dang it!

JohnK

07-03-2020, 06:24 PM

Well that just sucks. Sorry to hear that. Hope you can put this out of your mind for a moment and have a great 4th.

-John

EZ$

07-03-2020, 08:51 PM

Thanks guys. Dave has offered to come back up tomorrow, so we're going to take it apart again, and try to determine exactly what could be causing the issue. Luckily Dave has a set of gaskets in his shop so I don't have to wait for another delayed delivery. It was so close, the pressure test unit for the cooling system pumped up to the required PSI, but it just would not hold, and it's leaking at the back of the drivers' side same as it has from the beginning. Honestly, if it weren't for Dave's positive attitude about getting this figured out, I think I'd be back in that dark hole I dug for myself awhile back. I'm just hoping that we can figure what is causing it to not seal. I'm beginning to lean towards the fact that the intake and head surfaces are not lying flat on each other, and the DS is worse than the PS. We'll see what we discover when it's apart this time. Hopefully fifth times a charm. This has got to be the most expensive intake manifold gasket project ever!

Norm B

07-03-2020, 11:34 PM

Rick, that sucks but positive attitude and determination will win in the end. How many times did you go around the intake manifold torque sequence before it settled? I had to do about 10 laps before the torque stabilized and the next morning it took two more. I fully expected to have more movement after a heat cycle but everything was still tight.

Good Luck

Norm

rich grsc

07-04-2020, 07:57 AM

EZ$

07-04-2020, 09:33 AM

Norm, went around about four times, till there was no change. Even went back and increased the torque by 3-4 lbs., and that still didn't want to seal it up.

Rich, honestly, Dave and I both felt that we had found what might be the culprit, but obviously something else is affecting the situation. We're taking it apart again today to do some more investigation. It may turn out to be an exercise in futility, but I'm trying to stay positive this time.

Norm B

07-04-2020, 10:49 AM

Rick, if anyone of the bolts/studs reached and held torque first, while the others continued to take more, I would check in its area for an interference issue.

Good Luck

Norm

EZ$

07-04-2020, 04:49 PM

Norm, I had originally taken them up to 15 lbs. Decided to try taking them up to 18 lbs. yesterday afternoon. Went around 3-4 times, but at that point I was still seeing some coolant pooling at the back china wall. So I figured that it was still not sealing up. When Dave got here this morning, we re-tested the torque on everything. A couple of the studs moved just a touch, but everything was pretty much the same as it was yesterday afternoon. Pressure tested, and got some leakage at the back of the intake again, so Dave suggested something.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50076970077_fc82eeef1f_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ji8yxP)20200704_112304 (https://flic.kr/p/2ji8yxP) by Rick Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156322842@N02/), on Flickr

Apparently, I needed a Bigger BFH! We used these to seat the corners of the intake down, and re-torqued. It took some additional movement. Tried the pressure rig again, and we were still getting coolant out the back. Then Dave noticed a shimmer on the vertical back edge of the intake, and when he put a finger there it came back wet. Well there was a threaded plug there that had been installed, but had not been really tightened down, and coolant was seeping out from around the plug! Drained the coolant down below that level, removed the plug, cleaned it up, put PTFE sealant on the threads, and re-installed. we allowed it to sit for just a short time, pressure tested again, and SUCCESS! I'm going to allow it to sit with coolant till tomorrow to see if wants to try to mess with me again, but I'm hopeful that this is finally fixed.

I want to thank everyone who has responded with ideas and support throughout this cluster. The response has been fantastic, and everyone has been nothing but positive. I have to give a huge amount of thanks to SJDave. Without him offering to drive the 45 miles up here more than once, I know that I would still be chasing my tail trying to determine what was wrong. In addition, He brought up the Cobra today, so I got to see the new Bimini Top that he has produced. It looks terrific! Now I want to finish so that I can order one of these.

Again, thank you all.

RJD

07-04-2020, 05:59 PM

Great news! Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

SJDave

07-04-2020, 06:00 PM

Two heads, even old ones, are better than one! Don't hesitate to call if you need a set of hands or face another frustrating problem, glad to help and nice to have a project during the virus shutdown! It's just a darn shame your engine builder didn't identify this and work it out with Speedmaster from the get go; you paid good money but didn't get the quality you rightfully expected, and support after the fact....like Deja Vu for me too!

I'm glad you like the Bimini, it made the drive up and back so much more enjoyable today in the 90 degree heat, I love having the top! The elimination of the wind buffeting is worth it alone!

I haven't updated my Bimini post in 3 weeks, was busy delivering two kits to guys in Bakersfield and meeting with a canvas shop there to make more tops to my pattern. He's more then capable and actually finished the first one for Rodney Bakers car yesterday, a tri color. Rodneys car is beautiful, I love the stripe treatment and he wanted the top to match, not installed just yet due to a change needed on the Blue color, but it looks awesome. So one big hurdle overcome, finding a shop to make the tops, Herman's wife has done 5 now and is retiring from Cobra tops. I can't make any profit on the frames doing them in my home workshop for minimum wage, sending out Solidworks files for quote in 2 weeks, if I can get frame kits to sell under $450 I will become a forum vendor. The Tops will range from $300 for single color to $450 for tri color stripes, and be ordered directly from Sierra Canvas in Bakersfield. The frames are configurable for both dual and single rollbar and a wide range of distance from windshield to rollbar centerline, so far they have successfully mounted on 32.5" to 36.5 inches, 2", 1.75" and 1.5" diameter bars....including the Breeze angled back ones. I have prototyped a RAM suction mount for single roll bar cars, not tested yet but I'm confident it will work, Stainless steel tubing and boat bimini top fittings...slightly modified. some pics attached.

SJDave

07-04-2020, 07:42 PM

Sorry to hear that Rick.:( But, why would you put it back together until you know the answer to the mating surfaces not matching up? I've heard bad things about the quality of speedmaster, sounds like you got a bad one.

The intake had 3 issues Rich:
1) on the passenger side rear, the surface had a bow that caused a .010" gap at the water passage, it was flat within .002 until the last 4 inches...weird. The other side was flat all the way. I have used Permatex #2 alot back in my motorcross days, and it is tough as hell and will seal up to .020 gaps under pressure, so we decided it was worth a try.

2) The intake was interfering with the RHS heads at the rear only, it was impossible to compress the gasket in the rear because the intake was wedging between the heads. Rick masterfully filed away .040" along both sides of the intake. Now when it sat against the gaskets, you could feel some play side to side, there was none before.

3) the V angle of the intake doesn't quite match the V angle of the heads. We measured a gap of .006" worse case from the top to the bottom on one side. Again, we felt the Permatex would seal this up fine.

It's still possible there may be some slight leaks at the intake runners, but with fuel injection we felt it wouldn't make a huge difference in mixture since there is no MAF sensor in the stack system. And, when Rick started it last week, it actually idled pretty well after the self tuning Fast Easy EFi gathered some data....

So he went from it leaking freely without pressure last week, to just a dribble at 15psi after our fixes were installed....the dribble turned out to be the NPT plug in the intake on the Driver rear side. Sometimes it's the stupid stuff, but realistically Rick wouldn't have seen it because so much fluid was leaking the interface onto the back and down to the bellhousing. We probably didn't need the BFH tweak after all, but it did allow us to seat the gaskets a bit more which adds confidence without stripping out more holes in the RHS heads. I just don't know why RHS and engine builders that use their heads don't do this. All Edelbrock and AFR heads come with helicoils installed.

rich grsc

07-05-2020, 07:56 AM

John Dol

07-05-2020, 10:24 AM

Awesome, let’s hope you’ve got it licked, and time to move on to the next battle!

John

Lancaster Lad

07-05-2020, 10:34 AM

EZ$
Glad you didn't give up and maybe got it licked. Yes Dave is the man, he will even drive from
Santa Clara down to Bakersfield just to deliver parts.
By the way you don't have to wait until the car is finished to order the top, I didn't and am about
2 years until I need it. Just following tradition and helping you spend your $$.
Good luck on the road ahead.

EZ$

07-05-2020, 11:41 AM

Rich, yeah, I remember when you were going through that situation. I'm going to give the EZ 2.0 system a go, and see if I can get it to work. First start was easy enough, even with the timing not set, that I'm reasonably confident that it will work.

Thanks John.

Lancaster, he told me about his trip. Once I'm certain that I have this behind me I'll probably get in line to get mine ordered. I've been looking forward to the day I get to drive this thing for about 7-1/2 yrs. now. Hopefully not too much longer, or I'll have to have it converted to an automatic trans!

SJDave

07-05-2020, 04:28 PM

Thanks Dave for the run down. I've read other stories about Speedmaster intakes, seems the issues are true. I certainly hope this is the end of manifold issues for Rick, and hope he has luck getting the engine running correctly. If you remember I have the Borla 8 Stack intake, it absolutely could not be made to run correctly with the EZ-2 setup. Even Fast said it wouldn't work, after they switched me to the Sportsman system it was tunable and runs great. There are a lot of differences between the Borla and Speedmaster system.

I do remember the frustration you went through and the messages we exchanged. After using the FAST XFI 2.0 on the Borla 8 stack on my Smeding 427, it and the Sportsman give you all the knobs to turn, where the EZ system is very limited and assumes a Volumetric Efficiency table based on their experience. But a stack system will have less manifold vacuum at low to medium rpm and the VE values are not that close, and the engine will tend to run very rich. I spent alot of time testing and modifying the VE table until I got mine running really good. Also, at high rpm with such a large flow area with throttle plates open, there is a lot less pressure drop through the intake , so it almost hits 100% VE at wide open throttle, so tweaking the VE numbers at low manifold vacuum was also necessary to get more engine response. It will be interesting to see how Rick's system performs, and how well the IAC works. My 8 stack didn't have IAC to smooth out the idle control, but with the VE table correct it was very good in the end. I do miss that engine....always regret selling one.

But Rick should get ready for some issues just in case, and be prepared to upgrade if need be.