Engine Opinions and suppliers

[LOBO 302]

Good Afternoon everyone. I am still stalking the forums and learning all about the building process. Currently building Excel sheets out the ying yang trying to develop a budget and desires for the car etc etc, but most impotantly I already have concurrence from the Home CINC for the build. I will be using the car for predominently street use but it will be driven. I am looking for feedback on engine choices? SBF vs Coyote? Ease on install for each compared to each other? Engine suppliers, who is reputable and who to avoid? pros and cons of the various transmissions. Has to be a manual though. Sorry if this already discussed elsewhere, if you have those links could you send em my way? Thanks for all the help

Pat

[Higgybulin]

Contact Johnny at Blueprint engines. Well respected, Factory Five partner, can't go wrong
Higgy

[caesarmascetti]

I love my setup, 347 stroker w/T5 S10-midshift. The 347 makes really good power yet remains as compact as a 302. The T5 is light weight and shifts very smoothly IMO the best overall combination for these cars.

[Dieter123]

Lobo 302, I too am getting ready for my build and have similar type questions. I was looking at "Five Star" engines for a 351W. The reviews on this supplier seem mixed if not on the negative side but I always have to wonder what the real circumstances are for each review. This is a good thread to get some input from the FFR folks who have had good and bad experiences. Thanks for starting this thread.

[emac]

I got my driveline (351W with TKO500) from Mike Forte. No issues dealing with Forte

[rich grsc]

What do you like? Are you looking for a traditional old school look, or is "I want to just start it and drive it" more important?

[NAZ]

I've been told a SBC will fit: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?30196-The-Redbone-Roadster-Is-Getting-It-s-War-Paint-Torred-Red

[nuhale]

Gen 2 coyote/TKO600/Hyrdroboost Brakes/Hydro Clutch from MIKE FORTE. Good service and assembled for reasonable price. Mike is great to work with.

[emac]

To follow up on my post about using a 351W. My engine is a mild build, I think the dyno was just under 400hp. Runs on pump gas, I use 87 octane non ethanol. For me it is plenty fast, idles well, runs cool, etc. Like Rich grsc said in his post, you really need to build it for how you plan on using it. IMO, 400-500hp is plenty for these cars!

[LOBO 302]

Naz, SBC is out of the question for this guy!! But that could be a whole other thread... :) I have read GoDadGo's build thread and am looking forward to seeing his car in color like everyone else.

RichGRSC I like both and thats the problem....Hard to argue with 435-460 HP and Modern driveability but seems like you need to be a rocket scientist to wire it. I have an old school rebuilt 302 with a FiTech unit on it in my 67 Mustang that runs great (Will post is as my avatar when I can). But there lies the problem for me in making a choice, a nice SBF set up is almost the same cost, maybe a couple grand difference, as the coyote set up. From everything I have read the difference between 390 HP vs 460 HP and the way it effects how you enjoy the car are minmal, meaning they all haul tail!! I am looking for folks experiences with installs, advantages to installing one engine style or the other, suppliers to avoid and suppliers to utilize. And I guess I maybe skirting the forum guidelines in asking this concerning endorsing vendors and what not so just looking for guys personnel experiences.

[LOBO 302]

Gen 2 coyote/TKO600/Hyrdroboost Brakes/Hydro Clutch from MIKE FORTE. Good service and assembled for reasonable price. Mike is great to work with.

Thanks Nuhale been doing alot of research on Forte's

[Kafka_Esquire]

Thanks Nuhale been doing alot of research on Forte's

Mike supplied my 306 (carb setup), AOD, 3.55 rear end with brakes, mechanical throttle linkage, and a few other things. Good guy, knowledgeable, and responsive to all questions.

[Howard]

Need more information! What are the goals? What I have may not be what you're looking for. Currently I have a Dart block Windsor 427 with a T56 Magnum 6 speed transmission from Mike Fortes. Puts out about 535 hp/tq at the flywheel. Perfect for me but maybe not for you.

I can highly recommend Mike Fortes for whatever you end up decided on.

[LOBO 302]

Need more information! What are the goals? What I have may not be what you're looking for. Currently I have a Dart block Windsor 427 with a T56 Magnum 6 speed transmission from Mike Fortes. Puts out about 535 hp/tq at the flywheel. Perfect for me but maybe not for you.

I can highly recommend Mike Fortes for whatever you end up decided on.

My goals are to drive it. I want reliable driveable horsepower. I want to get in and turn the key and the car goes!! Of course I will do all the scheduled Mx to keep it that way. I want to worry about howmany miles i am going to drive today and not if it will start.

[DavidW]

Proformance Unlimited is where I got mine from, here's the link https://www.proformanceunlimited.com/

They've been building engines for a long time.

[GoDadGo]

Lobo,

Factory Five is now supporting the LS platform.
If you want insane power, that looks like a Ford, then take a look at this Dark Side Option from Pace Performance:

https://paceperformance.com/LS3-550-HP-Pace-Performance-Crate-Engine-Carbureted-with-HEI-As-Cast-Valve-Covers-GMP-19370413-CX.html

The HEI will actually fit and is from a 302 Ford so you can install a traditional distributor to get a more traditional look.
Add some Generic Valve Covers and you're making some series light weight ponies that looks like a Ford Nascar Race Engine.

Steve

Joey Logano Factory Five Truck With Ford Racing NASCAR V/8:
https://youtu.be/ppU7WSFF4cc

Disclamer:
If I weren't such a Crazy Chevy Kook, I'd have gone with a 302, 306 or 331 SBF with a 5-Speed.
With that said look at Blue Print Engines or Mike Forte.
Both are very reputable.

[Jeff Kleiner]

My goals are to drive it. I want reliable driveable horsepower. I want to get in and turn the key and the car goes!! Of course I will do all the scheduled Mx to keep it that way. I want to worry about how many miles i am going to drive today and not if it will start.

Then you are a perfect candidate for a Coyote. It'll be as reliable and driveable as a new Mustang. Both Mike Forte and Factory Five can set you up with the entire Coyote engine and transmission package.

Jeff

[Howard]

My goals are to drive it. I want reliable driveable horsepower. I want to get in and turn the key and the car goes!! Of course I will do all the scheduled Mx to keep it that way. I want to worry about howmany miles i am going to drive today and not if it will start.

Definitely EFI - probably Coyote engine if you're not too concerned about looks/being period correct etc. TKO 600 transmission with 0.64 OD would be a good transmission option.

[LOBO 302]

GoDadGo, how is the paint coming on your Car? I am deployed here in Kuwait and spent last weekend watching your YouTube stuff and read your build thread so thanks for keeping my mind off of real life for a little while.....with that said I could never go to the Dark Side even if it was my Father!!! I am True Blue Ford through and through. I have been leaning Coyote most of the way but have to admit the wiring and the electric pedal really has me spooked. Been reading EdwardB's build threads and he seems to have the coyote install down. Just downloaded the manuals and have been studying wire diagrams of it. Thanks to everyone for all the inputs

[GoDadGo]

Lobo 302,

1. Thank You For Your Service!
2. Hope you'll be home soon and getting your dream car ordered and assembled.
3. Any advice given to you by Jeff Kleiner, 65 Cobra Dude, Edwardb or Mike Everson is going to be 100% spot on.
4. In addition, it is my understanding that you should only take advice from Da-Bat (Jeff Miller) when he has had a drink or two.

Steve

PS: We will be posting a video as soon as some color is on the Red Bone Roadster which we expect to be this week!

[Jeff Kleiner]

Lobo 302,

... it is my understanding that you should only take advice from Da-Bat (Jeff Miller) when he has had a drink or two.





Or maybe that was when he hasn’t. Then again, does it really matter?

Jeff

[edwardb]

...Hard to argue with 435-460 HP and modern driveability but seems like you need to be a rocket scientist to wire it... (referring to a Coyote)

I guess it would be easy to get that impression because there are a number of forum posts about it. The fact is many builders cite wiring as the hardest part of the build, and adding the Coyote compounds it for them. To be totally candid (and maybe step on a few toes) a high percentage of the questions I get are covered in the instructions. People either don't read them or are overwhelmed. Between the Factory Five Coyote instructions, the Ford Performance control pack instructions, and multiple build threads, there's as much on this subject as probably any other. Just need to do your part. You mention installing a FiTech setup. It's not any more complicated than that. If anything, easier because the Ford Performance control pack is plug and play. Give it +12V power and several connections to the RF harness and you're done. I've done both (SBF and Coyote) and I'm most definitely not a rocket scientist. :p

[Avalanche325]

What I have may not be what you're looking for.

I thought the standard answer was, "You have to have what I have!".



SBF is the easiest to install. Minimal wiring, and small physical size. It drops right in.
SBF is the easiest for maintenance just because you can get to everything.
SBF is more period correct for the car. But only a big block 427 or 428 are really period correct.
Coyotes are HUGE. But they do fit and are a great engine.
Coyotes are generally quieter when you are just cruising around.
Coyotes get better gas mileage for the HP.

Either type of engine will start every time. The SBF with a carb might not start on the first touch of the key. But it will start every time. Depending on how aggressive your build is, you might have to warm up for a couple minutes. There is also the option of EFI on an SBF if carbs aren't your thing.

You want to just hit the key and drive? Oh, I thought you wanted a Cobra! Just kidding. I went the other way with a fairly high strung 500HP 347. I actually wanted to have to warm it up, work the throttle, etc. Hit the key and go is what my daily driver is for. I did my own assembly and got the engine form Fordstrokers.com.

Transmissions:
T5 - inexpensive and dependable. Good shifting. Not made for high HP. There are upgrades, but still they only go so far.
TKO 500 / 600. Very strong. They don't shift like a Miata, but they aren't bad once they break in. There are upgrades for these too. There are two different versions for different ratios.
The bad thing about Tremic transmissions, at least the TKOs,....about 50% of them leak right out of the box.
T56 - more gears. That may be a good thing or a bad thing. Shifting more on the track or autocross is not usually desirable. You have to have IRS, which I would do if I were building now.

I am running a TKO 600 road race. Tight ratios are great for the track and autocross and still fine on the road.

It doesn't take much HP in one of these to make it fast, dangerous, or even deadly. I have met a couple Cobra owners that are afraid of their cars, so rarely drive them. So, don't jut go for big numbers. Go for the setup that fits you best. If you want to learn how to drive the car fast and safely, there is nothing better for you than autocross.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

If you can read & follow directions the COYOTE is an easy install. Very little actual wiring on the engine is more plug in the plugs. Have always hated to do wiring but found the COYOTE to be the easiest wiring job on the car.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126382&d=1586814394

[edwardb]

...T56 - more gears. That may be a good thing or a bad thing. Shifting more on the track or autocross is not usually desirable...

Although the ratios are very slightly different between the TKO and T-56, I don't think you'll be shifting any more on the track or autocross because of the T-56 itself. The added gear between the 5-speed TKO and 6-speed T-56 is a second overdrive. 4th is 1.00, just like the TKO, 5th is .80, 6th is .63. So it's basically like getting the two versions of the TKO in one.

[GFX2043mtu]

Honestly you’ll get a million options on this. Personally I believe the coyote is a great motor but as with all options has some compromises mainly as it’s a little more difficult to install and is a tight fit. How ever it makes good power and and is fuel injected so it runs and starts like any modern car. It’s a install and forget it motor which is a big plus. A SBF tends to be cheaper and you can add fuel injection later if want and it will be just as turn key as a coyote while making as much power as you want. My 461 ci SBF makes 645 hp and over 655 ft lbs of torque and is built to take 1,200 hp if I want (and is perfectly driveable). As far as other non Ford engines I always scratch my head as a Ford will drop in, make as much power and can be just as light weigh as any other engine. So it doest make much sense to me. If you want to be different, go for it but why make it hard if it doest have to be. “Driveable” is a relative term as the peddle on the far right and your brain determine that. If you want to cruse with the car and have fun my personal option is 400-500 hp is about a bulls eye. One thing to look for in a engine builder or supplier is what do they do when things go south and you have a problem.

[CraigS]

Once it warms up my 408 w/ Quickfuel carb is just as driveable as my wife's 2015 Mustang GT w/ Coyote. The warming up takes a little bit of playing w/ the cable operated choke for the first few minutes.

[scottiec]

Once it warms up my 408 w/ Quickfuel carb is just as driveable as my wife's 2015 Mustang GT w/ Coyote. The warming up takes a little bit of playing w/ the cable operated choke for the first few minutes.

Similar experience here. Once my Dart 363 get some temperature in it, it drives like its fuel injected. I don't even need to mess with my electronic choke on my Brawler carb. Just fire it, let it sit on the high idle cam for couple of minutes and we are good to go.

[Avalanche325]

Although the ratios are very slightly different between the TKO and T-56, I don't think you'll be shifting any more on the track or autocross because of the T-56 itself. The added gear between the 5-speed TKO and 6-speed T-56 is a second overdrive. 4th is 1.00, just like the TKO, 5th is .80, 6th is .63. So it's basically like getting the two versions of the TKO in one.

I should have looked that up before I said that. I forgot that it was double overdrive. Thanks for the correction.

[FFinisher]

Then you are a perfect candidate for a Coyote. It'll be as reliable and driveable as a new Mustang. Both Mike Forte and Factory Five can set you up with the entire Coyote engine and transmission package.

Jeff

Exactly, as long as you don't use an Optima Battery. :-)

Coyote wiring is a simple as it could be .

Ground
power
Start
Key on.

Not really Rocket science.

[KDubU]

When I build another my choice of engine would be SBF first for performance, look and reliability. All three are very possible with a SBF if it is built right. I personally am not a fan of the Coyote in a roadster due to looks out of the box. Some have enhanced it with some painted sections of the engine covers and that helps and then there are two I recall where one had stacks and the other had a custom aluminum cover and both looked very nice.

All this is my personal preference though as a I like the old school look and feel of a SBF. Modern engines definitely are nice but in my head they belong in a different vehicle but this is YOUR roadster so you decide what you want.

[Howard]

Just to followup on the TKO 600 vs T56 - as already stated, the T56 has both overdrive gears - 0.80 and 0.63. The reason I wanted the T56 in my cobra was so that I could track it and have a usable 5th gear plus have a easy cruising gear on the street.

The TKO 600 comes in two flavors - the road race version which has the 0.82 5th gear which is great for the track, but not great for cruising at 75-80. The street version of the TKO 600 has a 0.64 5th gear which is great for cruising but useless at the track - also cruising around 55-60 mph can sometimes be a nuisance with the 0.64 OD - it's a big drop from 4th to 5th in rpm with the street version. It also depends to some extent what gear you have in the rear diff - I have 3.55 which is pretty common.

The downside to the T56 is it's a huge transmission - it's a beast to install. You must have IRS to start with as the driveshaft is tiny - the center cylindrical section is about 2" long. You will probably have to modify the tubing in the trans tunnel to get it fit - it's just a little too wide, plus you will have to come up with a custom made transmission mount as the standard A trans mount won't work.

The upsides to the T56, in addition to the two OD gears are that it shifts like butter - much smoother than the TKO's that I've had especially shifting into 1st gear. It also has a couple of other benefits such as a low speed reverse lock out solenoid - you can't accidentally shift into reverse until the car is at a stop although that is not usually a huge issue. It also has an easy midshift conversion - the TKO is a pain to convert to midshift involving removing the tail shaft etc. With the T56 you don't have to do that and deal with roll pins etc. You just have to install the shifter and you're done.

I've had both versions of the TKO 600 in my car, and the T56 is a much better tranny, but it does take a bit of work to massage it into place.

[cnutting]

SBF is more period correct for the car. But only a big block 427 or 428 are really period correct.

Unless you build a 289... :)

[Avalanche325]

Unless you build a 289... :)

I thought about that when I typed it. LOL I can't get away with anything around here.

Here is a video from Dave Smith about engine options and opinions. Done just a couple weeks ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpjwKZEgzj8

[edwardb]

Just to followup on the TKO 600 vs T56 - as already stated, the T56 has both overdrive gears - 0.80 and 0.63. The reason I wanted the T56 in my cobra was so that I could track it and have a usable 5th gear plus have a easy cruising gear on the street.

The TKO 600 comes in two flavors - the road race version which has the 0.82 5th gear which is great for the track, but not great for cruising at 75-80. The street version of the TKO 600 has a 0.64 5th gear which is great for cruising but useless at the track - also cruising around 55-60 mph can sometimes be a nuisance with the 0.64 OD - it's a big drop from 4th to 5th in rpm with the street version. It also depends to some extent what gear you have in the rear diff - I have 3.55 which is pretty common.

The downside to the T56 is it's a huge transmission - it's a beast to install. You must have IRS to start with as the driveshaft is tiny - the center cylindrical section is about 2" long. You will probably have to modify the tubing in the trans tunnel to get it fit - it's just a little too wide, plus you will have to come up with a custom made transmission mount as the standard A trans mount won't work.

The upsides to the T56, in addition to the two OD gears are that it shifts like butter - much smoother than the TKO's that I've had especially shifting into 1st gear. It also has a couple of other benefits such as a low speed reverse lock out solenoid - you can't accidentally shift into reverse until the car is at a stop although that is not usually a huge issue. It also has an easy midshift conversion - the TKO is a pain to convert to midshift involving removing the tail shaft etc. With the T56 you don't have to do that and deal with roll pins etc. You just have to install the shifter and you're done.

I've had both versions of the TKO 600 in my car, and the T56 is a much better tranny, but it does take a bit of work to massage it into place.

All good points. I've had Roadsters with the 0.82 5th gear and the 0.64 5th gear. Your description is exactly right. Each has pluses and minuses. I know this is a Roadster related thread, but just in case any Coupe guys should sneak in, the T-56 fits easily in the Gen 3 Coupe. Because of the space frame and longer wheelbase, zero mods required and the driveshaft is a reasonable length. It's what I put in my Gen 3 Coupe build. Haven't driven it much due to the current situation. But with just under 100 miles, can attest that it shifts nice. I have a speed sensitive module on the reverse solenoid which also works great. Reverse is locked out any time the car is moving forward.

[phileas_fogg]

I guess it would be easy to get that impression because there are a number of forum posts about it. The fact is many builders cite wiring as the hardest part of the build, and adding the Coyote compounds it for them. To be totally candid (and maybe step on a few toes) a high percentage of the questions I get are covered in the instructions. People either don't read them or are overwhelmed. Between the Factory Five Coyote instructions, the Ford Performance control pack instructions, and multiple build threads, there's as much on this subject as probably any other. Just need to do your part. You mention installing a FiTech setup. It's not any more complicated than that. If anything, easier because the Ford Performance control pack is plug and play. Give it +12V power and several connections to the RF harness and you're done. I've done both (SBF and Coyote) and I'm most definitely not a rocket scientist. :p

No, but you are a brain surgeon (Post #98; https://www.ffcars.com/threads/edwardb%EF%BF%BDs-mk4-8674-20th-anniversary-build.518353/page-5) :D

Lobo, you're not going to have any difficulty wiring the Coyote. When I wrote my post back in 2015, Paul was breaking new ground. Five years later - thanks to Paul & countless other builders - that road is graded, paved, & smoothed.


John

[LOBO 302]

No, but you are a brain surgeon (Post #98; https://www.ffcars.com/threads/edwardb%EF%BF%BDs-mk4-8674-20th-anniversary-build.518353/page-5) :D

Lobo, you're not going to have any difficulty wiring the Coyote. When I wrote my post back in 2015, Paul was breaking new ground. Five years later - thanks to Paul & countless other builders - that road is graded, paved, & smoothed.


John

John, that's a really good way to put it. I started with Paul's 20th Anniversary build thread and have sorta moved forward and starting to see how the TTPs (Tactics Techniques and Procedures) for install have matured. I continue to read build threads and try and learn as I read.

Question for any Coyote Builders, I am thinking of No Heat No A/C No radio No Glovebox so is there any reason you cant put all the Coyote wiring (ECM, PDC etc) in the dash versus in the engine compartment?

[edwardb]

Question for any Coyote Builders, I am thinking of No Heat No A/C No radio No Glovebox so is there any reason you cant put all the Coyote wiring (ECM, PDC etc) in the dash versus in the engine compartment?

Hmm. Went from Coyote is too complicated to adding complexity. :p Yes, it's possible. Some have done it. Two basic issues in my experience:

(1) Power Distribution Box (PDB) has user serviceable parts inside. Fuses, relays, etc. So it needs to be accessible. If you put it behind the dash, it has to be where you can get the lid off and access the panel. Tucked up on the firewall in the engine compartment (rather than on the footbox like Factory Five shows) it's partially hidden by the body overhang. No big deal IMO. Readily accessible and easiest to wire.

(2) The three engine harness connections to the PCM are on the front RH side of the engine. It's intended that the PCM is in proximity there. Like it is on the Mustang. Guys have unlaced the engine harness from the engine and pulled those wires to the back and mounted the PCM elsewhere, including behind the dash. But once you see how many wires are involved you may reconsider. There are wires to each individual port injector, direct injector (Gen 3), coil on plug modules, and various sensors. The PCM also needs to be where you can remove it if needed. Both Coyotes I've done required re-flashes at Ford. They give one day turnaround. But still have to physically send it to them. Both of mine were early, so hopefully that's not too common now. But I still wouldn't bury where it's hard to get at. For a Roadster, the usual PCM mount is on the outside of the frame behind the RH splash guard. It's basically hidden. So to be honest, not sure what the motivation would be to hide it behind the dash.

[LOBO 302]

Thanks for the insight Paul...I wasn’t thinking of accessing components once completed. I should be ashamed of myself...I am an aircraft maintainer and I was designing the system without the maintainer in mind! I’ve cursed many an engineer for far less!!!

[Dieter123]

Hey LOBO, I work for the FAA, Airworthiness Inspector.

[shark92651]

Dave Smith and some of the guys at FFR did a video a few weeks about discussing engine options. It's worth a watch


https://youtu.be/fpjwKZEgzj8

[swwebb]

Love the video!!

[Howard]

Couldn't agree more on Dave's comment about stack injection systems - look awesome, but a pain to get to run right.

I don't think he mentioned it in the video, but Dart block based engines are awesome!

[Bobby Doug]

This will probably make the Coyote guys mad but I have heard them at idle and they just don't sound right. That being said they do make great power and get much better gas mileage than the SBF. Personally I have a 347 from Prestige Motorsports in NC. If I had to do it over it would be a 427 based on the 351W.

[yahrt]

Nothing but great things to say about Mike Forte, i ordered a BP 347 with a sniper, had some issues this past weekend, Mike answered my call on a Sunday, contacted his engine builder, got back to me within 30 min, something to be said for accessibility and responsiveness, and Mike has been there every time I needed him

[BluePrintEngines]

As many have pointed out, BluePrint Engines is partnered directly with Factory Five. There is a reason for that. Happy to take calls any time, and there are lots of happy BPE customers out there that purchased one of our factoryfiveengines.com combo's. If you're considering a pushrod engine, please give me a call and I'll be happy to talk and help with a selection! Any questions on who the best traditional engine supplier is, ask Dave S, or Tony at FFR! We have had this relationship going on 3 years now, and have really taken the unknowns out of the equation. We even own a 33 HR, and I've wrenched on numerous Roadsters, including Daves sons car. We really enjoy the relationship, and happy to talk to and help customers any time.

Johnny@BluePrintEngines.com
308 236 1010
factoryfiveengines.com