FFR Live Stream about the 818

[Hobby Racer]

Anyone see the Facebook live stream or the video on YouTube about the 818? I am very interested in the possibility of them reworking the chassis to accept inline 4's and possible LS V8's. I hope this gets some support from the community and FFR in the future.

Count me in for another build if this happens!


https://youtu.be/X9uI3awy2XQ

[Jetfuel]

Thanks for the update
Quite a sales pitch for an already fun machine
Can’t wait

Jet

[wallace18]

IMO the best thing that could be done to the 818 is the following.

1. Set up engine bay to accept transverse engine/transmissions from donor cars. EX: Honda, Ford.
2. FFR designed and manufactured front and rear suspension without donor parts.

The 2002- 2007 Subie's are getting old and rusty. If you find one in good shape it ain't cheap. Just my 2- cents worth. I have built 3 -818"s

[FFRWRX]

Very interesting (I sound like the guy from Laugh In). When he first talked about an LS engine in it I thought, but that means the Porsche tranny and that is very expensive. Then he said they can mate it up with the Subaru 6 speed (if I understood correctly). And with the new front engine car coming out and maybe dropping the GTR, it will leave this one as their mid-engine car. Really glad to hear they are at least considering keeping this one going and maybe modifying to a higher performance car. Cool stuff!

And he does mention about the side windows on the 818C not being great, but doing the job. Probably an accurate statement.

[Ajzride]

After hearing them talk about the real mission for the 818, I think I'm a lot less disappointed with it than I originally was. Much like he mentioned, I'm basically looking for a Subaru powered supercar level build. Adding 6-8" in wheel base and widening it 2-4" would go a long way in making it a much better candidate for cool builds, both from a drivetrain and styling standpoint. With regards to helping with the donor situation, I know they mentioned avoiding the 2008+ Subarus because of can-bus, but I'm sure they could make the frame in such a way it would accept the newer control arms and then people could do a Honda or LS engine if they don't want to deal with the Subaru can-bus engine.

[Hindsight]

Not that FFR is reading this, but if they were, my advice would be:
1. More refinement on ease/speed of assembly. Get it like the Cobra where it goes together quickly and easily. Body fitting was such a challenge
2. Better suspension geometry and spend more time tuning the suspension and incorporating that into the kit. The car had terrible bump-steer (as in, extremely dangerous levels) and oversteered like mad with the race suspension. Until I got a bump steer kit and bump-steer gauage and spent hours fixing the bump steer, the car was all over the road and every time you'd hit the brakes hard you had to work the steering wheel with lightning reflexes to keep from going into the ditch or oncoming traffic. The car also needs more caster and you have to modify the upper control arms and/or shim the lower control arms to get it. That could be easily addressed
3. 6 Speed should be mandatory and frame should be built to accept it. 5 speeds are just too fragile.
4. A good Wilwood brake setup, pedal assembly and all, should be required on the R. The donor brakes don't cut it for a mid-engine car if you are going to do any kind of tracking. I think FFR could do better in working with Wilwood to increase the rear rotor diameter and rear caliper size (IIRC even the 818 Wilwood setup is sized more for a front engine car instead of a mid engine car)
5. A better shifter setup with rear-facing cables and a bell-crank should be standard

Other engine options would be good but expose their own complications - wiring, transmission adapters, instrument cluster, etc. Part of FFR's success has been how easy their Cobra replica is to build, and how few parts it requires. Keep it simple. The 818 is a fantastic idea but I think just needs a lot more refinement to really hit a home run. Just my two cents.

[flynntuna]

Really liked the idea of a Lancia Stratos body on a stretched frame. Don't know if 2" in the engine side would be enough for a LS though . 2" in the passenger side would be a big help

[DaveC37923]

They talk about 230WHP at the wheels being a lot of fun. Mines at 307 and it's all I can handle. But I'm also almost 70yo. Just stupid fast. Love it.

[Mechie3]

Not that FFR is reading this, but if they were, my advice would be:
1. More refinement on ease/speed of assembly. Get it like the Cobra where it goes together quickly and easily. Body fitting was such a challenge

Definitely.



2. Better suspension geometry and spend more time tuning the suspension and incorporating that into the kit. The car had terrible bump-steer (as in, extremely dangerous levels) and oversteered like mad with the race suspension. Until I got a bump steer kit and bump-steer gauage and spent hours fixing the bump steer, the car was all over the road and every time you'd hit the brakes hard you had to work the steering wheel with lightning reflexes to keep from going into the ditch or oncoming traffic. The car also needs more caster and you have to modify the upper control arms and/or shim the lower control arms to get it. That could be easily addressed


Did you document your results somewhere?



3. 6 Speed should be mandatory and frame should be built to accept it. 5 speeds are just too fragile.

I've seen/read about more people shearing the axles that fit the 5x100 hubs than I have blowing the transmission, but both are an issue for sure. Both are problems brought about by using the WRX donor vs the STI (for cost reasons).




5. A better shifter setup with rear-facing cables and a bell-crank should be standard

I know why they did it (cost), but it's also why I fixed it. ;) My first go kart ride I couldn't tell if i was in first or not and when a car got behind me while trying to do a U turn at the entrance to my neighborhood I ended up not being in gear, revving the engine loudly, slamming it into first, and doing a 180 drift instead of a U turn. Slightly embarrassing. lol

[Sgt.Gator]

Good video and good comments from the peanut gallery!

I'll reserve my comments to the R model. Interesting that Jim said a dry sump is mandatory, which ya'll know I agree with. And I think it will be mandatory on a LS, or Honda, or any other engine you race in an R model. There is a reason Chevrolet made a dry sump standard in my C6 Z06 LS-7, and standard in the C6 Grand Sport manual trans LS-6, and it wasn't to save initial cost! Big R comp tires and aero downforce have made it mandatory.

I echo most of Hindsght's comments. The suspension really needs a thorough going over that is not constrained by the requirement of using donor parts. In fact I hope they drop the concept that car is built from donor parts. How about the concept that the car is built using the best parts for the application and cost/benefit, not because they are from a donor?

My $.02:
1) The rollbar needs to be higher by several inches. I think this applies to the S too, but definitely the R.
2) Many of the documented frame gussets, tube fills, and other safety mods done by builders here should be incorporated. The drivers side frame needs to bulge out like a NASCAR side frame into the door space.
3) An optional HALO cage, similar to mine and the Lotus FIA homolgated 2-11. Welded up at the factory. With the halo it's not necessary to raise the roll bar. I noticed the video R has a tube from the center of the roll cage to the passenger side front, just like the Gen 3 Coupe R. That could be an option too, some owners may want to be able to carry a passenger, others not.
4) Submitting both the halo and non-halo frames to the SCCA for homolgation certification would be a big boon towards declaring it a legitimate race chassis.
5) Larger front wheel wells or flares as talked about in the video is a must. We are too limited in wheel - tire combos now.
6) The better flowing side rear scoops in front of the rear tires should be standard, especially if they are adding rear wheel flares. That would make oil and trans coolers, and possibly a intercooler, easier to add.
7) A longer wheelbase is welcome, but not just for the engine compartment. Please add a couple of inches to the driver's compartment! And square up the steering wheel, seat, and peddles in a straight line.
8) In an R I don't care about using the Subaru donor dash or gauge cluster. Better to optimize for adding any of many now available digital dashes like the AIM series. Nor do I care about using the Subaru ECU. Since they are considering an LS, Honda, Mazda, Ford Ecoboost I would design the car to have a place to mount any ECU and digital dash setup.
9) I hope they reconsider the fuel tank position and design. I know some builders will want the fuel cell in the passenger space and hold 44 gallons, others are happy with 12 gals behind the driver, and some will want it up front. Maybe think thru the best way to design the car for all 3 options?

I'm not ready to throw in the towel on the 5 speed. At least not for under 300 ft-lb TQ cars. I expect my pro rebuilt 5 speed with fluid pump/cooler will last for years of endurance racing.with my de-tuned engine. I believe the tranny cooler is key. We'll see! I'd really like to see a paddle shift sequential installed by someone. Or even a sequential with a manual shifter.

[Hindsight]

Did you document your results somewhere?

Just in my build thread. The summary of suspension work I did was:
1. Make my own front bump steer kit using some components from a Baer kit, and some components from another kit. Then I bought a bunch of spacer shims of various thicknesses, bought a digital bump steer gauge, and spent at least two solid days shimming it on both sides until it was perfect.
2. Cut the rear tube nut of the upper control arm down so I could get more caster. REALLY important
3. Used the bump steer gauge in the rear to adjust the bump steer back there too

That made the car night and day. It no longer followed ruts in the road. It no longer darted left and right after hitting pot holes or under hard braking. Had good steering feedback too though I would have liked more caster than I got though - maybe 5 degrees or 6 degrees instead of 3.5 which is what I THINK I had.

I never got the car to handle neutral on the track though. I was running R springs and shocks, and even fabricated my own front sway bar. The front bar helped but the rear would ALWAYS come out first, and by a lot. It wasn't a weight transfer thing. Needed to soften the rear springs and re-check but I just never got around to it before I sold it.



I've seen/read about more people shearing the axles that fit the 5x100 hubs than I have blowing the transmission, but both are an issue for sure. Both are problems brought about by using the WRX donor vs the STI (for cost reasons).

I've seen axle issues too, but lots of transmission issues with the 5 speeds. My 5 speed had low miles and wasn't abused. It was rock solid reliable for me for what, 4 or more years of street and track duty? But it blew up on the guy I sold it to just a couple months after he bought it. He swore he wasn't beating on it.



I know why they did it (cost), but it's also why I fixed it. My first go kart ride I couldn't tell if i was in first or not and when a car got behind me while trying to do a U turn at the entrance to my neighborhood I ended up not being in gear, revving the engine loudly, slamming it into first, and doing a 180 drift instead of a U turn. Slightly embarrassing. lol

The cables aren't any more expensive - should even be cheaper since the rear-direct run is shorter. FFR has the ability to laser cut bell cranks and brackets etc - no reason it should cost a bunch more. But yeah, your kit is the best and is what the car should come with!

[Mechie3]

The cables aren't any more expensive - should even be cheaper since the rear-direct run is shorter. FFR has the ability to laser cut bell cranks and brackets etc - no reason it should cost a bunch more. But yeah, your kit is the best and is what the car should come with!

They could save on cables, but the other parts would definitely cost more. Mainly the shifter, once you add in bearings, bushings, springs, and assembly time. Cheaper to just buy an off the shelf MR2 spyder plastic setup. I'll look up your build thread and see what you did for the bump steer and add it to my list of things to do after I'm "done". lol

[tgf05354]

I've had my 818s on the road for 2 years now. I agree with just about all the above. I am not as skilled as some poster, but thankfully that they have worked so hard at sorting out numerous issues. A huge thank you to Hindsight on the bump steer issue, night and day improvement and should come with the kit. I think FFR's mistake was trying to market this around the $9999.99 price. Most of us spent 3 times that to get it on the road. Having had a couple of WRX's, I like the boxer engine. First thing I did was have the engine and transmission rebuilt before starting the build. I'm around 300whp and it is "stupid fast"and I love it. Get lots of questions and compliments.

[ben1272]

Do we need an LSD in our 818? Stock 2004 WRX (2.0 turbo + 5-speed)

Just replaced 2 cam seals, new turbo, new equal length header. Now do we LSD? Going to get this car on the road this summer!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Do we need an LSD in our 818? Stock 2004 WRX (2.0 turbo + 5-speed)

Just replaced 2 cam seals, new turbo, new equal length header. Now do we LSD? Going to get this car on the road this summer!

LSD will give you better traction during hard launches. After losing 2 axles during autocross launches with wheel hop. I don't do that any more.

[ben1272]

Sorry, so did wheel hop occur with or without the LSD? We are at a good place to split the tranny and add it, if the car really needs it. Otherwise, we will leave the stock diff.

[Ajzride]

I think Bob’s point is that the axles can’t stand up to the force that an LSD puts on them, so it is an unnecessary upgrade.

I added it to mine before I ever drove it due to my past experiences building a car that had way more power than traction. I may have a broken axle in my future.

[Hobby Racer]

Do we need an LSD in our 818? Stock 2004 WRX (2.0 turbo + 5-speed)

Just replaced 2 cam seals, new turbo, new equal length header. Now do we LSD? Going to get this car on the road this summer!

It all depends on your driving style and intended purpose. If your not going to drop the clutch and perform hard launches you will not need an LSD with the stock power levels. If you are going to build the engine (300+ whp) and want to race it in some form an LSD is a good upgrade.

Really comes down to what you want out of the car.

I had an LSD in my 5 speed that I tracked hard and I now went to 6 speed without an LSD. If your smooth on the power and setup the chassis right you really don't need an LSD, there is plenty of grip in the mid engine design.

[ben1272]

Thanks, great explanations. I think we will give it a go without, and see how we do.

[lance corsi]

IMO, I think the car needs a good name. I was never a big fan of the numerical moniker. Not many have been built that actually weigh in at 818 kilos. Plus, it’s a difficult thing to relate to others who aren’t familiar with FFR. If you try to explain the correlation to weight, you have the caveat of then explaining why your car isn’t representative of the name. Especially when you consider the hardtop version, which usually tips the scales near 2200 lbs. Maybe a FFR 1000 would suffice in this case but I’m still partial to animal names. Some Air Force planes have great names too. Maybe a tribute to one of those?
Another thing they should address is the wrong tilt on the engine. It needs to be raised 1.25” in front or lowered in the rear. Engine oiling problems and transmission problems could possibly be traced back to this.
Then there’s the windows. Need I digress?