Minimum chassis build before bodywork and paint

[Rickw96]

Hi,
I'm trying to get the bodywork and paint completed by my body shop to help keep them busy during the slowdown here in So Cal.
It's a gen 3, and I have the front and rear suspension completed.
I need to know what is the minimum I need to do to the chassis so they can attach the body, hand the doors, attach aluminum, etc.
Any information would be great.
Thanks
Rick

[edwardb]

Just posted this on the other forum. Interested in how other Gen 3 builders respond.

I would say the absolute minimum would be the firewall, instrument panel (rests on the firewall), and radiator tunnel. But that much would be risky in my opinion. I found the front inner lower splash panels were critical to hold the pontoons in place and to get the nose fitted properly. The front inner panels are necessary to attach those panels. I found the manual instructions for placing the rear of the body to be dead on. It's quite detailed and for mine turned out perfect. But the rest -- front of the body, doors, and nose I found challenging. They interact a lot. Don't finalize anything until you're happy with everything. A change one place affects something else. You just keep going around and around until you find the best compromise for all. Do the final fit on the doors with the nose alignment as best as you can with it and down and latched. You'll also want to check the fit of the windshield and mock up the rear glass and hinges and make any adjustments to the body before finishing. Good luck.

[Alphamacaroon]

The only permanently installable parts of the chassis that can effect the placement of the body (that I can think of) are the firewall, dashboard, and A/C condenser (the hood needs to be cut to accommodate it). Everything else seems able to bend to the whim of the body and adjusted— and least in my experience so far (I’m doing final body work now).

Do you necessarily need to permanently attach all the aluminum and body now? If you were willing to have the body fitted and painted first, then removed and stored while you finish everything up then I think all you would really need to have in place is the firewall and dashboard (like edwardb said), and a test fit of the radiator and A/C condenser (although someone could probably just send you some measurements for this to get close enough).

That is personally the route I would go if I was forced or highly encouraged to do the body first.

[David Williamson]

Agree 100% with Paul. The fit if the hood and doors with the body affect each other. The hood sits on the rad aluminum and the rad/condenser affect how far the hood opens. The lower splash shield set the pontoons that affect the hood body and door alignments.
I spent weeks working on getting it roughly fitted and the body shop took many hours fixing my errors and fine tuning it.
David W

[Rickw96]

Thanks, everyone for the responses. I am very willing to have the shop fit the body and paint and then
remove and store while I finish up the rest of the build.
If I read correctly I will need to install:
Firewall, dash, rad aluminum, front inner lower splash panels and A/C condenser if I complete the bodywork/paint and then remove and store the body.
If I want to have the bodywork/paint completed and NOT remove the body I will need to install:
Firewall, dash and A/C condenser, front inner lower splash panels, and glass?

Am I correct?
Rick

[David Williamson]

If you want to leave the painted body on you really should have a finished running go-cart. There is just too much risk of paint damage doing lots of work around a painted car. Also access to the inside with the body on is limited. The windshield goes in after paint but like the side windows, do the fit before paint.
The body goes on and off quite easily just getting alignment the same each time will take some time. Mine was painted with the body on.
David W

[edwardb]

Thanks, everyone for the responses. I am very willing to have the shop fit the body and paint and then
remove and store while I finish up the rest of the build.
If I read correctly I will need to install:
Firewall, dash, rad aluminum, front inner lower splash panels and A/C condenser if I complete the bodywork/paint and then remove and store the body.
If I want to have the bodywork/paint completed and NOT remove the body I will need to install:
Firewall, dash and A/C condenser, front inner lower splash panels, and glass?

Am I correct?
Rick

Front inner lower splash panels and front inner panels. Otherwise nothing to hook the splash panels to. Both visible in the picture below, with the splash panel still in bare aluminum. This was during initial body fit, so the pontoons aren't attached to it yet. Other clarifications: Radiator aluminum and radiator. The A/C condenser attaches to the radiator. With both in place and hood hinged, you'll see where you need to clearance the underside of the hood to clear when opened.

These are sometimes painted body on or body off. Roadsters it's near unanimous they should be painted body off. The Coupe is maybe not as clear cut. Your painter will need to decide. Mine was painted with the main part of the body on. But the nose and doors were removed after the initial body work. As already stated, if you want to paint it and leave the body on, you need to have a completed chassis. All the aluminum panels hung, insulation, wiring, fuel lines, brake lines, engine in, etc. You wouldn't want to be doing all of that with the painted body installed. Besides, a bunch of it wouldn't even be possible with the body on. When mine came back from paint, other than obvious things like installing lights, the windshield, rear hatch glass, etc. the only thing left was installing the interior carpet and seats.

One other point of possible clarification. Even if painted body off, the body will remain on the chassis for an extended period. Once everything is set (hood, doors, etc.) then the bodywork starts. Everything has to stay in place to get things matched up, gaps set, etc. From a pure hours standpoint, probably 50% or more will be in this stage with the body still on the chassis. Your painter will have the entire car for a while.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=102565&d=1550863471

[Rickw96]

Thanks Edwardb!
The picture really helps. I think I will try to get as much of the chassis work completed before I send it to the shop.
Do you have any pictures of the radiator aluminum/radiator and the A/C condenser attached to the radiator?

[Alphamacaroon]

Agreed with edwardB—if you leave the body on you will make it infinitely harder if you don't start with a nearly completed chassis. You could ask us for a detailed list of "things that can't be done after the body is on" and do those first, but I'm almost certain even with our collective knowledge we would probably miss something, and that would be problematic. Then there is also the non-standard addons/mods that we would never be able to address on that list.

If you wanted an exact(ish) set of instructions for the "remove the painted body and store it" option, here is what I would say:

1. Gather up the following parts:

Must have:

- Main body section
- Main body section rear mounts and hardware
- Rear window
- Rear window weather seal (a few temporary pieces)
- Rear window hinges and hardware
- Hood section
- Hood lip bumpers.
- Hood mounting brackets and associated hardware.
- Hood latches and associated hardware (u-bolt, etc)
- Hood pins and locator plates.
- Doors
- Door hardware (mount, hinges, interior frame, latch, etc.)
- Left and right front wheel well aluminum (as shown in edwardb's last picture).
- Firewall and dashboard aluminum.
- Full round bulb weatherseal that gets put around the edges of many parts of aluminum where it touches the body. This can/will effect how the body sits on the chassis (mostly in the firewall area).
- Spoiler.
- Cowl air scoops (if you are putting them on)
- Side window frame and mounts (if you are putting them on)
- All instructions and drawings for body cutouts (if you didn't purchase this option from FFR).
- Hood side vent mesh (for proper sizing of the hole).
- The full FFR manual

Optional, if you don't want to drill or cut anything after paint:

- Left and right rear wheel well aluminum— there is a single attachment point near the bottom back arch of the wheel well that either gets a screw or a rivet (you'll see a small tab hanging down from the aluminum).
- Brake/tail light mounting brackets and measurement drawings from manual.
- Rear license plate mount.
- License plate light.
- Headlight cover attachment brackets.
- Radiator
- Radiator mounting bracket
- A/C Condenser and mounting hardware.
- Side mirrors.

3. Temporarily install the firewall aluminum with screws and push on weather seal.

4. Temporarily install the dashboard aluminum with screws and push on weather seal.

5. Temporarily install the radiator aluminum (and radiator and A/C condenser if you don't want to make any cuts/holes post painting).

---- Everything past this point requires the body resting (and temporarily fixed) on the frame ----

6. Follow all instructions in Chapter 4: Body Section.

Parts you can probably skip in "Body Section" of manual if needed

- Gas struts
- Headlights
- Exhaust hanger brackets
- Side window plexiglass
- I think the quarter windows could probably also be ignored here. But I haven't looked at mine yet, so others might disagree.

7. Additionally, I don't think it would hurt to also complete the following in the Chapter 5: Final Assembly during this phase:

(Most of the holes here are eventually covered, so technically you could drill them after paint, but I want to prevent putting a drill anywhere near my painted body as much as possible)

- Drill holes and test fit headlight cover mounting brackets.
- Drill holes for tail/brake lights
- Drill holes for license plate bracket
- Drill holes for license plate light
- Drill holes for side mirrors
- Install the headliner (could/maybe should be done after paint)

8. Temporarily install front and rear wheel well aluminum.

9. Body work and paint




Anyway, I may have missed something and would love another set of eyes to look over and/or critique. But this is what I could think of.

[Alphamacaroon]

Thanks Edwardb!
The picture really helps. I think I will try to get as much of the chassis work completed before I send it to the shop.
Do you have any pictures of the radiator aluminum/radiator and the A/C condenser attached to the radiator?

Keep in mind that "much of the chassis work" will most likely be 100's of hours and many, many weeks (unless you are a master builder, and even then...). In many aspects the car should be nearly fully (safely) drivable and the cockpit mostly done to liking (minus carpet) before you should even think about permanently contouring and attaching the body.

So if the goal was to help out the shop during the slowdown, those timelines might not match up ( at least I hope the slowdown doesn't last that long ;) )

I'd say this: if helping out the shop is really important, then it probably doesn't matter if you do any permanent chassis work right now, as long as you are able to follow those instructions in my post above (pending feedback/confirmation/modification from others) and remove the body and store it while you finish up the rest. If you want to permanently attach the body just before, or just after you paint it, then I personally don't think it's possible to get all the chassis work you will need done in any sort of timeline that would be helpful to the shop. Keep in mind this is based on fairly limited information (how experienced you are, how well off the body shop is, how long the slowdown is going to last, etc.)

[frankeeski]

My only concern would be why anyone would use any paint and body shop in SoCal other than Miller's Customs?

[edwardb]

Thanks Edwardb!
The picture really helps. I think I will try to get as much of the chassis work completed before I send it to the shop.
Do you have any pictures of the radiator aluminum/radiator and the A/C condenser attached to the radiator?

These are pictures from my build thread. Link in my sig line below. The whole gallery is here: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?&u=287. Not too much of the build that didn't get described or pictured. Note that Factory Five changed the back wall of the radiator tunnel to two pieces since I received my kit a couple years ago. Ends up looking the same from what I can tell. But the top angled section is a separate piece.

Nice exhaustive list from Alphamacaroon. Don't disagree with any of it. Demonstrates, at least IMO, building in the suggested sequence is probably the best approach. I'd be talking to Jeff Miller too if I wasn't 2500 miles away.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80316&d=1517623372

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=102103&d=1550030073

[Rickw96]

Thanks Alphamacaroon for the list, I can tell a lot of thought was put into it. Also, thanks edwardb for the pic and link.
The main goal was to try to give my shop work during the slow down, I work with the shop a lot. Yes, I have spoken with Jeff Miller and he gave me great advice and info.
At this point I will keep working on the build and get as much done as I can before putting it over to bodywork and paint. As with everyone I hope the slowdown doesn't last to long.
Again, thanks to everyone for the advice and quick responses.
Rick