View Full Version : Need to gain oil pan clearance
An issue that I've needed to solve is that the oil drain plug sits one inch below the main frame rails. If I remember correctly, the motor mounts are from a convertible(??) mustang, and I'm trying to determine if there are other mounts that would be taller, or a way to add spacers to the existing mounts. I'm really at a loss. I keep thinking about it, but always get side tracked.
If anyone has any ideas it would be a great help.
Thanks
Norm B
04-18-2020, 12:12 AM
Looking at your pictures it is hard to tell if you have room to go up. Your front stacks might be way too close to the hood if not interfering. What oil pan do you have, front or rear sump?
Hey Norm, I should have posted the pictures I took. It's a front sump stock pan. It's the one that came with the engine, so it should be good. At this point I just need to raise the engine up for clearance, and deal with the height of the stacks issue once I put the body back on. If I have to rework the stacks to have them machined shorter, then that's what I'll do. I don't know how else to attack this issue.
By the way, thanks again for the videos!
rich grsc
04-18-2020, 08:21 AM
It must be an issue with the pan? I have convertible mounts, and have had no issues with the pan below the rails. I've used two different pans, the stock 5.0 oil pan from a late 90's mustang, and now a Kevco pan. The pan shouldn't be deeper than 7.5"
Norm B
04-18-2020, 10:52 AM
Rick there is one other point of interference that I found during the build. It may just be the combination of parts that I used. I have a 95 T5 transmission and bell housing and I had to clearance the bell housing a little to clear the angled braces on the frame. Check the back of your engine for clearance. If that is good, then there are mounts that raise the engine. I think Jeff Kleiner mentioned poly mounts on another thread but, I doubt they would gain you the inch you need and they are not cheap. Most of us, with the 427 model and the four into four headers, try and get the engine as low as possible for side pipe clearance.
Before buying anything new I would see if what you have will work. Use a floor jack with a block of wood between it and the oil pan. Take the weight of the engine with the jack then carefully loosen (just a little) the motor and transmission mounts. Jack the engine to about 1/4 inch above where you want it. Do this slowly while checking for interference. Make sure the engine mounts slide up the slots on the frame. Re-tighten all the mounts and slowly release the jack.
I couldn't do this with mine because of the aforementioned side pipe header issue so I resorted to using my redneck farm kid engineering degree and made the two skid rails out of 1 inch square aluminum to protect my front sump pan.
HTH
Norm
Rich, I'll double check the height of the pan, but it is the same as the one that came with the engine. Long story, but I had to swap the original out for new.
Norm, great minds must think alike! I considered coming up with some type of skid plate to protect it, but then I would have to raise the ride height to compensate, or I'd be dragging it on everything.
Here are a couple of photos I took. One is to the filler plug, and the other is to the frame rail. The car is up on skates, so that's why it's sitting up 7 inches.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49785750581_8cae0301dd_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iRoZ92)P4170134 (https://flic.kr/p/2iRoZ92) by Rick Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156322842@N02/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49785750231_6782d583b3_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iRoZ2Z)P4170133 (https://flic.kr/p/2iRoZ2Z) by Rick Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156322842@N02/), on Flickr
I'll have to check some more stuff out today. Thanks.
Bob Cowan
04-18-2020, 03:31 PM
Once you start moving the engine around, you run in to all sorts of little problems that need to be addressed.
-- Stack to hood clearance
-- Side pipe to body clearance
-- Bellhousing clearance
-- pinion angle
-- etc.
It's not as simple as blocking up the engine and inch.
If it were me (and it's not) I'd buy an oil pan that fits better
I hear you Bob. The stack to hood clearance is secondary at this point for me. The side pipes can be adjusted, they're the FIA style, so not through the body. I've got plenty of clearance with the bellhousing, and it's IRS so pinion angle is not an issue. I've already replaced the oil pan, due to damage, with one that matched the one that came with the engine, and honestly, I don't think I have the patience to go through that exercise again any time soon. Not having a lift, and trying to do this on jack stands is miserable to say the least. Had I known there would be these kinds of clearance issues, I would have gone with a shallower pan, and new oil pick-up when I did it the first time. Much like so many other things, I think I've researched an item, only to find out it won't work in my application. Frustrating at best.
Norm B
04-18-2020, 04:42 PM
Rick, is your oil pan baffled?
Well, I went to the tape measure thinking that this was a stock pan, which are supposed to be 7.75 inches tall, and it turns out that Scott Drake "stock" oil pans are slightly deeper than stock. Didn't pick that up when I ordered it just after I dropped the engine in the car. The original pan was smashed on the bottom, so I was going based on appearance, and this is what I got. It's apparently close to 8.75 to the bottom of the filler. Quite a difference. So I've been looking on line most of the day trying to compare different pans. Turns out there aren't a whole lot of pans, unless you want a 4 quart pan, that are 7-1/2" deep. Based on the reference to Kevco that Rich made, I found their Sportsman pan which is 7-1/2" deep and has an 8 qt. capacity. Nice pan. Also, Milodon has a 7 qt. pan that is 7-1/2" deep. They're both in the mid $300's, so price is not the decider. I was surprised that Champ, Morosso, Canton, all don't make a Ford pan for the 302 that is 7-1/2" deep. Now I need to determine if the oil pump and pick up tube need to be swapped out for either of the above pans. I'm hoping no since I really can't afford the additional cost. This is what happens when you get in a rush to complete something, and you need the parts right away. Can't clean up the pan I purchased, because I removed the baffle from the original tank, undamaged, and spot welded it in place before installing, and repainted, so maybe I can sell it, maybe not.
If anyone has any ideas, I'm open to suggestions.
rich grsc
04-18-2020, 09:15 PM
Kevco should have several pans that are 7.5" deep. You won't need to do anything with the pump, but you will need to change the pickup tube.
This is 7.5", https://kevkoracing.com/collections/ford-302-351w/products/part-f901-cobra-kit-car-pan-rear-sump
This one too, https://kevkoracing.com/collections/ford-302-351w/products/part-f406-ford-rear-sump-street-strip-pan-302-engine
I have this one, was cheaper when I got mine,https://kevkoracing.com/collections/ford-302-351w/products/part-f501-rr-ford-rear-sump-road-race-pan-302-engine
Bob Cowan
04-18-2020, 09:24 PM
I hear you Bob. The stack to hood clearance is secondary at this point for me. The side pipes can be adjusted, they're the FIA style, so not through the body. I've got plenty of clearance with the bellhousing, and it's IRS so pinion angle is not an issue. I've already replaced the oil pan, due to damage, with one that matched the one that came with the engine, and honestly, I don't think I have the patience to go through that exercise again any time soon. Not having a lift, and trying to do this on jack stands is miserable to say the least. Had I known there would be these kinds of clearance issues, I would have gone with a shallower pan, and new oil pick-up when I did it the first time. Much like so many other things, I think I've researched an item, only to find out it won't work in my application. Frustrating at best.
Yeah, we've all been there. This part doesn't fit right. That combo doesn't work together, etc. Unless you stick with a tried and true, well know combination, you're going to have those issues come up.
If you shorten the stacks, you'll change the power band of the engine. That may not match with you're other engine parts.
Pinion angle is still important with IRS. You still have to measure and trim/shim as needed to get it where it needs to be.
Changing the pan without a lift is a PITA (which is one of the reasons I have a lift). But I'd do it anyway.
Rich, thanks for the lead on Kevco. This question is going to make me sound even more, well let's say, uninformed, but front or rear sump, does it make a difference? I would figure that it will require a longer pickup to reach the rear sump. If I contact them can they point me in the right direction regarding the pickup tube?
Bob, I was beginning to feel that it was the theme of my build. I've said before, I wish I had waited for the FIA kit to be released. It would have saved me a bunch of fab, etc., that I had to teach myself as I go. I didn't realize that about the stacks. Another failing in my education. I had a small amount of pinion angle when first installed, not too much, and not a straight shot either. I appreciate you pointing these things out. It's the only way I'm going to learn anything. Thanks.
Norm B
04-18-2020, 11:43 PM
Rick, after reading your post about measuring your "stock" pan, I went out and measured my old pan. It was 8.75 versus the 7.75 advertised. I measured my new pan and it is exactly 8 inches which means it will have lots of clearance with my additions on the frame rails. The reason I asked about baffling earlier was, my old pan had very little and when I tore the engine down to do my 331 stroker upgrade this winter, I noticed a few spots of minor oil starvation on the mains. Decided to upgrade to a road race pan with much better baffling. The stock front sump pans are probably OK in the family sedan but, with how quick these cars accelerate, a much better pan is required. My turn to live and learn.
Norm
rich grsc
04-19-2020, 07:45 AM
Rich, thanks for the lead on Kevco. This question is going to make me sound even more, well let's say, uninformed, but front or rear sump, does it make a difference? I would figure that it will require a longer pickup to reach the rear sump. If I contact them can they point me in the right direction regarding the pickup tube?
Bob, I was beginning to feel that it was the theme of my build. I've said before, I wish I had waited for the FIA kit to be released. It would have saved me a bunch of fab, etc., that I had to teach myself as I go. I didn't realize that about the stacks. Another failing in my education. I had a small amount of pinion angle when first installed, not too much, and not a straight shot either. I appreciate you pointing these things out. It's the only way I'm going to learn anything. Thanks.
I would never use a front pan, but that is just my opinion. If you buy a new pan, you must get the correct pickup for it. Kevco has the correct pickup tubes for each pan they make, get it when you buy the pan. The pan on my car has 4 door trap baffling, windage tray, and crank scrapper, I never see an oil pressure drop no matter how hard I drive it. I used the mustang pan on the old engine, and like Norm it had bearing damage due to oil starvation. I had seen pressure drop on hard corners with the old engine and pan, now it'll not happen again. With performance tire, these cars can corner so hard that the oil in the pan can be pushed away from the pickup tube. You will have the change the dipstick if you get one with a windage tray, it will screw into the pan kick out.
Champ does indeed make a pan that would fit. I'm surprised that it didn't come with your Levy 331. I've used this pan 3 times.
https://www.champpans.com/products/p/cp302lt-rr/
Olli
phileas_fogg
04-19-2020, 10:40 AM
Rick,
The pan Olli pointed you to is the same one I got from Gordon Levy. Gordon also provides the pickup, dipstick (which is almost certainly marked incorrectly for your application, so check it when you test the pan for leaks), & tube. You will need to purchase a gasket & maybe a couple of bungs: a 1/2”-20 for the opposite side dipstick and a 1/2” NPT plug for the oil temperature sensor.
I'd never changed an oil pan before, and documented my experience here: https://www.ffcars.com/threads/john’s-excellent-oil-pan-adventure.637338/. If you've got the plates that go under a stock plan, I'd install the gasket in two steps: first seal the gasket to the block (using the plates), and then the pan to the gasket. Wait an hour or two between steps to let the RTV set up so that the gasket doesn't slip off the block. Hopefully that will accelerate your learning. ;)
John
Norm, Thanks, I kind of figured that might be the case. Good to know now instead of after the damage occurred.
Rich, Thanks for the info. I just wasn't sure if a rear sump might interfere with the starter motor, or ?? It makes sense that under hard acceleration all the oil is going to want to be forced to the back of the pan.
Olli, Thanks for the reference on the Champ pan. I can't figure why this didn't come up during all my searches.
John, I may check in with Gordon. I'm going to review the thread on "your experience", as the result of "my experience" almost caused me to push the car into the street with a "FREE" sign on it!!
Thanks guys.
OK, so I reviewed "John's Excellent Adventure", and I think it would have made a great film! Just kidding. I do have a question for you, or anyone else that has installed a pan with the side bump outs on the sump. How do you managed to get the bolts in place above the bump outs, and once in place how would you be able to torque them? I had watched a video testing torque wrenches, and using a flex fitting on the socket changes the torque value kind of drastically. How do you deal with this? I know the torque on these bolts is not high, like 12 ft/lbs., so do you just wing it with a ratcheting box end or ?? Just trying to prepare myself for the possible upcoming battle.
RBachman
04-19-2020, 07:39 PM
OK, so I reviewed "John's Excellent Adventure", and I think it would have made a great film! Just kidding. I do have a question for you, or anyone else that has installed a pan with the side bump outs on the sump. How do you managed to get the bolts in place above the bump outs, and once in place how would you be able to torque them? I had watched a video testing torque wrenches, and using a flex fitting on the socket changes the torque value kind of drastically. How do you deal with this? I know the torque on these bolts is not high, like 12 ft/lbs., so do you just wing it with a ratcheting box end or ?? Just trying to prepare myself for the possible upcoming battle.
I do it by feel compared to what the torque wrench tells you on those you can get to. Make sure you are at the same angle/pull to the wrench. 12 lbs isn't much more than snug.
RBachman, thanks for confirming that for me. In looking at the pans again, there appears to be enough angle to be able to get reasonable access to even the bolts in the worst locations. Just not looking forward to doing it. Putting in a stock pan, with straight on access to all the bolts was no fun. I'm guessing I'm in for an "E ticket" ride. That probably dates me more than I wanted!
jrcuz
04-20-2020, 06:30 AM
I'm not on the road yet but about a year ago I changed pans on my Dart 347 from a pan that was about 1-1.5 inches below the frame tubes to a Canton pan which cured the pan hanging below the rails. After running the eng. there was a leak at the rear pan seal area. I snugged the rear bolts a bit and no help. I've had the replacement gasket set since then but have yet to try and drop the pan and change the gasket or what ever needs to be done simply because of the difficulty I had the first time. Not that it matters but I'm going on 73 also. It will be fixed before I'm on the road.
JR
jrcuz, I'm not far behind you. At this point I've made the decision that this will be the best solution, and I'm going to try to avoid worrying about the replacement process, and just try to take my time to get it right the first time. The last one took so long it really kicked my as*, but I have no leaks, so I'm going to try to accomplish the same on this one. We'll see! I wonder if studs with nuts would make this any easier than bolts.
jrcuz
04-20-2020, 11:32 AM
Studs may work Rick. On mine the leak is very small but any leak isn't good.
JR
phileas_fogg
04-20-2020, 11:35 AM
I did like RBachman & went by feel for the bolts I couldn't get a torque wrench on. I felt comfortable doing so because the gasket I used has a steel core, which protects from over-tightening (within reason). I used sockets, flex head sockets, & box wrenches to get to all the bolts. Using RTV along the rails like Frank Messina recommends also helps forgive a lot of sins with respect to torque.
Do a bunch of test fits to get your technique dialed; on mine, the back of the pan would only fit in front of the block off if I held it at a specific angle. I fit the back of the pan into place, then slipped the front over the plastic alignment studs, then got a couple of side bolts in to hold the pan, then the front & rear bolts, then the rest of the side bolts. The RTV gives you plenty of time to work, so don't feel like you're rushed.
You've got this!
John
Xkuzme1
04-20-2020, 01:09 PM
Same problem with mine. Instead of re-engineering the geometry of the engine, transmission, and rear ended, I opted for a simpler plan of putting a low profile oil pan plug, then I’ll be welding a small skid plate between the rails to protect it.
Just seems to be that in this case, keeping it simple is better.
Thanks John. Do you feel that studs would have made the install any easier?
Derald Rice
04-20-2020, 01:45 PM
I use studs, and I think that they make dropping the pan easier. I use a floor jack to raise the pan and gasket, and then it holds the pan in place while I attach the nuts. Also, since this is a low stress stud, I use set screws from McMaster insead of the high priced ARP studs. https://www.mcmaster.com/91375a550. The link is an example, there are many lengths available. I use flanged nylon insert nuts.
EDIT: I know that there are a lot of recomendations for using a RTV called "The Right Stuff", but it is most definately the Wrong Stuff for an oil pan. I used it and damn near never got the pan off when I had to change an oil pump.
In your case, I agree with others who have suggested a different pan, but FWIW, here is another option which may be of use :
As far as the drain plug, (which is not usually included in the dimensions from any pan manufacturer). I re tapped the drain hole to 3/8 NPT, then used a recessed allen headed 3/8 pipe plug that now sits level with the bottom of the pan to eliminate the plug from being an issue.
EDIT: The champ pan has a horizontal drain plug, which is probably the best for our applications.
Derald.
Thanks Derald. I found a set of oil pans studs from Canton Racing that are stainless steel, and got virtually all 5 star reviews on Summit. Only $13.00. Now I just need to determine if I need a pick-up tube mounting bolt. Since the engine was set up with a front sump, I'm not sure if it's already there. Didn't notice when I replaced the pan. I believe that this bolt replaces on of the "main cap"(??) bolts to anchor the tube as it goes towards the rear sump. Need to find out if the existing can be removed, and replaced with one of these without worrying about screwing anything up. Also need to find out what the torque of the bolt is and also the nut that holds the pick-up tube. Man, so many questions for something that you would think of as simply changing the oil pan!
phileas_fogg
04-20-2020, 07:23 PM
Studs may make the installation easier, or may make it impossible. It all depends on the clearance between the rear of the pan & the block off plate. At $13 it's definitely worth a try.
As for moving the mounting stud for the oil pickup, it's perfectly fine. My excellent oil pan adventure describes the process mid-way through post #1; note that this is for a 302. One other thing to pay attention to: on your test fit, use some clay (covered by saran wrap) to determine the clearance between the pickup & the bottom of the pan. I *think* you're looking for 3/16"-1/2"; it's been a while & I'm going from my admittedly poor memory, so look it up!
John
Thanks again John. I was thinking the same thing on the $13 stud kit. I think you mentioned in your thread the torque values, so I'm going to re-read, and also check in with Gordon, since he built it. In the Champ Pans site, they mention that for a 7" deep pan, you should set the pickup at 6-5/8" from the bottom of the block. I figure that's always a good place to start, but I'll double check with the clay. Right now I'm trying to open my wallet wide enough to pay for all this! I'm starting to think that I could have ordered a new Ferrari when we were in Marenello, Italy a couple of years ago, and I would have saved some money!!
jrcuz
04-21-2020, 06:18 AM
I'm with you Rick. I've probably already spent my stimulus check I hope it comes soon.
JR
GThompson
04-21-2020, 07:08 AM
Many of the originals used Aviaid (often incorrectly spelled “Aviad”) oil pans. They’re very shallow, high-volume pans with baffles in them, were THE standard for road-racing oil pans. However, they can get pricy. Anyway, I wondered “What could be more appropriate for my Daytona coupe replica than a replica of one of the original oil pans?” I wound up buying an Armando’s oil pan, very similar to this one http://www.aroilpans.com/405.html. The one in that link is slightly shorter in length so it doesn’t hold quite as much oil as the one I have but is still only 6-1/2” deep with the bottom of the pan about 1/2” above the bottom of my coupe frame. It came with a new pick-up tube, has a bung for the drain, a bung for a temp sender, and a fitting to attach a dipstick tube to. I bolted mine onto the ‘88 302 block with a 1-piece Felpro gasket (blue silicone?) and have had no leaks, has worked great!
rich grsc
04-21-2020, 08:27 AM
Thanks Derald. I found a set of oil pans studs from Canton Racing that are stainless steel, and got virtually all 5 star reviews on Summit. Only $13.00. Now I just need to determine if I need a pick-up tube mounting bolt. Since the engine was set up with a front sump, I'm not sure if it's already there. Didn't notice when I replaced the pan. I believe that this bolt replaces on of the "main cap"(??) bolts to anchor the tube as it goes towards the rear sump. Need to find out if the existing can be removed, and replaced with one of these without worrying about screwing anything up. Also need to find out what the torque of the bolt is and also the nut that holds the pick-up tube. Man, so many questions for something that you would think of as simply changing the oil pan!
With all the horror stories of SS, why would you use them?
George, Interesting pan. Unfortunately they're a bit more expensive than the pans I've been looking at, and once you add all the other items necessary I'll need to talk to my wife to see if I can spend her stimulus check too!
Rich, I think I must have missed that session. Since the oil pan only gets torqued to about 12-15 ft/lbs, why would they be a concern?
rich grsc
04-21-2020, 02:34 PM
SS fasteners tend to gall, or seize up. They would require the use of anti-seize thread protectant, and offer no benefit for the intended use.
Rich, Thanks for that info. I don't mind using anti-seize, as the only benefit in using them is the cost compared to ARP at $97. Once they're in I have no intention of removing them.
rich grsc
04-21-2020, 04:50 PM
Rich, Thanks for that info. I don't mind using anti-seize, as the only benefit in using them is the cost compared to ARP at $97. Once they're in I have no intention of removing them.
Careful what you say-----:eek:
Yeah, I know, I know. Everything I've done on this car has been done multiple times. You are making me nervous though! Maybe I'll look around for other options. What's a few extra bucks at this point.
rich grsc
04-22-2020, 07:55 AM
If you have anti-seize, and use it you'll be ok.
Bob Cowan
04-22-2020, 09:02 AM
I use SS fasteners all the time. I buy them by the box from McMasters. Galling isn't nearly the problem people think it is. I use them for valve covers, oil pans, front covers, brackets, etc. Just about everything.
Rich, good to know, thanks.
Bob, definitely good to know, thanks.
SJDave
04-22-2020, 10:33 AM
I use SS fasteners all the time. I buy them by the box from McMasters. Galling isn't nearly the problem people think it is. I use them for valve covers, oil pans, front covers, brackets, etc. Just about everything.
I've have problems with Stainless galling only when putting stainless bolts into stainless threads. No issues when bolting into steel, plated steel, aluminum.
Dave, thanks for the additional confirmation.