Clutch safety switch vs neutral safety switch

[D Stand]

I am in the middle of installing the wiring harness and am realizing I need to do something about the clutch safety switch circuit. I have the TKO 600 with a neutral safety switch. Has anyone wired the clutch safety switch circuit through the neutral switch in stead of the clutch switch? Looking for pros and cons of doing this.

Thanks Dale

[skidd]

WTF.. .. hit the wrong button... any I accidentally deleted my post. oop. lol.
Post #2 was.. before I knuked it...

"I used them both, kinda in parallel. One or the other needed to allow the starter to trigger. If it's in neutral, the clutch doesn't matter. If the clutch is in , the gear doesn't matter"

[boat737]

WTF.. .. hit the wrong button... any I accidentally deleted my post. oop. lol.
Post #2 was.. before I knuked it...

"I used them both, kinda in parallel. One of the other needed to allow the starter to trigger. If it's in neutral, the clutch doesn't matter. If the clutch is in , the gear doesn't matter"

Update: Since Skidd deleted his post above, I did too. Now we are back in sequence. Now, is every one totally confused?


To answer the OP...

Me too. Wired both, in parallel, through a relay. The car will start with either the clutch pedal depressed, OR in neutral (or both).

A little bonus with using the relay, if a start is attempted with the trans in gear and clutch not depressed, a red warning light flashes, indicating that the start circuit is energized with the trans in gear and the clutch not depressed. (I just love gizmos.)

Also, a bit over kill, but I put a toggle switch under the dash to bypass both the neutral safety and clutch safety switches, in the very unlikely case both switches or the relay malfunctions some how.

[CraigS]

I have just the neutral switch on my TKO500. It works fine. It is a little weird since all other cars use a clutch pedal switch so every once in a while I forget and try to start it w/ just the clutch pedal down. I would not want both in series.

[Fixit]

I would do the clutch switch. This way you know the car won't even crank unless the engine is mechanically disconnected from the drivetrain... no chance of an "accident".

[GoDadGo]

I do think having them both is a good idea; however, I didn't want either on my car.

As usual I've gone in the exact opposite direction and am running neither...My 1969 Chevy Truck had neither so neither does my Dark Side MK-4 Roadster...It is probably why I am always wiggling the stick to a neutral position while pushing in the clutch every time I get in a vehicle with a standard transmission.

I do have the clutch safety circuit wired to a barrel keyed switch and am using it as an anti theft device instead.

[edwardb]

Curious what you think the advantage of the neutral safety switch is over the clutch switch? The only advantage I can think of is you could start the car without actually climbing in and pushing the clutch down. Maybe useful when working on it, troubleshooting, etc. But for routine use, no difference. In actual operation, I'd rather push the clutch down to start the car versus searching for neutral. Like stalling at a light or on a hill. Not that that's ever happened to me. :rolleyes:

One other caution, and sounds like this may not apply since others have used it. But I see from searching on other forums many put a relay on the neutral safety switch. So I wonder what its current carrying capability is? The RF blue starter wire that goes through the clutch safety switch I don't think has to carry a lot of current. But still something to consider. I personally don't see an advantage for both.

And put me down for having one of the other mandatory. I've driven manual shift since my days back on the farm as a kid. But I've also had DD's that were mostly automatic. I can just see myself forgetting and starting it in gear. Risk for damage or injury from an unintended start or acceleration is just too great IMO.

[DadofThree]

This doesn't answer your question, but I'm going to chime in anyway. In case someone decides to follow this rabbit hole we took you down. :)

I don't have a neutral safety switch, but do have the clutch safety switch.

Similar to Boat, I put in an override switch to start the car (2 position momentary). My override switch is hidden behind the dash, but accessible while standing outside the car. It has come in handy while building the car, troubleshooting, or most recently starting the car while getting a jump. All without the need to get in the seat and press the clutch pedal has been nice.

I will say though, one of the first times I used it the car was in gear and did jump. I'm one of the unlucky guys who doesn't truly learn until the mistake happens, but fortunately nothing was damaged. But I do make sure the car is in Neutral now if I'm not sitting in it.

Anyway, you could probably add a simple security switch somewhere if you wanted to or I imagine you could hook it up to the neutral switch wiring that you have in the TKO. (But can't tell you how, sorry)

See attached how I wired mine up (doesn't include override switch)

[skidd]

Curious what you think the advantage of the neutral safety switch is over the clutch switch? The only advantage I can think of is you could start the car without actually climbing in and pushing the clutch down.
...
One other caution, and sounds like this may not apply since others have used it. But I see from searching on other forums many put a relay on the neutral safety switch. So I wonder what its current carrying capability is?

That's the main reason I put the starter control in parallel to the clutch and neutral switch. If the car is in N, I can start it while standing outside the car. Proved to be handy during tuning of the carb and timing and stuff.
As for the current needed... again for my car.. my starter relay is triggered by a standard Bosch automotive relay, since I'm using a S2K push-button start. The "ground" side of the starter relay runs (again, in parallel) through the neutral & clutch switch. That's less than 200ma of current.
Like others have also stated.. I too have a hidden override button ... just in case.

[D Stand]

Thanks for all of the replies. All great points. My question mainly started as I can not find the clutch switch in my pile of parts. Bought this used and not very organized pile of parts. I really like the wiring in parallel idea. I do have a spare relay from the fuel pump as my sniper is has a built in relay. Maybe I’ll just route through it and be done with it....

Thanks again.

[CDXXVII]

The kit does not include a clutch safety switch. I purchased a switch the same as the brake light switch and made a bracket to match. If I get a chance I post a link to the brake switch later this afternoon.


Thanks for all of the replies. All great points. My question mainly started as I can not find the clutch switch in my pile of parts. Bought this used and not very organized pile of parts. I really like the wiring in parallel idea. I do have a spare relay from the fuel pump as my sniper is has a built in relay. Maybe I’ll just route through it and be done with it....

Thanks again.

[glastron351]

Usually us more experienced drivers (I say that loosely) are used to always depressing the clutch before starting. My kids and wife may not be as familiar with this procedure and I wouldn't want them to start a car in gear and have it take off with them panicking inside. I would go for the clutch safety switch, however I actually tied both the clutch switch and the neutral safety switch (tko600) in series so disengaged clutch and neutral are both required to start the car. A little overkill I'm sure but its pretty easy to get rid of the neutral safety switch if I want.

All that said I really like the idea of wiring both switches in parallel as mentioned above. Never thought of that, great idea! (thanks skidd). May have to redo a bit of wiring shortly.

[Avalanche325]

I am a fan of a clutch switch. I always push the clutch when I start any car. But, I wouldn't want someone, like a kid, to hit the key with the car in gear.

I didn't want a neutral switch for autocross and track. If I spin and stall, I can just hit the key and get started back up.

[edwardb]

The kit does not include a clutch safety switch. I purchased a switch the same as the brake light switch and made a bracket to match. If I get a chance I post a link to the brake switch later this afternoon.

Actually it does. At least for the complete kit. Two tabs that get mounted in the Wilwood pedal box and two switches. Not sure about the base kit.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ab234/edwardb123/3/Wilwood_Footbox_Switches.bmp (https://app.photobucket.com/u/edwardb123/p/e760de1c-b621-40cf-86ac-463a40064657)

[CDXXVII]

Actually it does. At least for the complete kit. Two tabs that get mounted in the Wilwood pedal box and two switches. Not sure about the base kit.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ab234/edwardb123/3/Wilwood_Footbox_Switches.bmp (https://app.photobucket.com/u/edwardb123/p/e760de1c-b621-40cf-86ac-463a40064657)

Good to hear they include both in the newer MK4 complete kits. I know for certain they did not include both in the early MK4 kits. I use both the neutral and clutch safety switches wired in parallel through a relay.

[Jim1855]

I guess there's always one in every crowd. Must be I'm it.

First car had neither. Second car had the neutral switch, irritated me no end. Swapped motors and ditched the switch. Did put it in when I swapped back to the original motor prior to selling the car.

However, I started the car with the clutch in and usually in neutral.

No plans for either in the current build. But then I have guns w/o safeties too.

Jim

[Railroad]

No neutral, no clutch switch, put the clutch switch on a toggle switch, never checked to see if it works.

[Ian G]

Well you guys, I have seen the result of a car starting in gear with a man standing in front of it. So for that reason I say put some kind of safety switch in the start circuit. I used a NS switch so I can start it from outside when working on it.

[frankb]

Neutral safety switch on 8317. I learned to drive on a stick shift car and have had manual tranny cars ever since. But I can also remember seeing the results of attempting to start one with it in gear from outside the car. Just an extra layer of safety...

[RoadRacer]

Me too. Wired both, in parallel, through a relay. The car will start with either the clutch pedal depressed, OR in neutral (or both).

A little bonus with using the relay, if a start is attempted with the trans in gear and clutch not depressed, a red warning light flashes, indicating that the start circuit is energized with the trans in gear and the clutch not depressed. (I just love gizmos.)
.

Now my TKO is installed, I'd like to use the neutral in parallel with clutch too - if only that it'll allow me to start the car from outside.

But to keep it simple, I can literally run wires from the back of the clutch switch to the neutral. I don't believe there's any need for a relay if you don't need all that fancy (flashlight, override), right boat?

I haven't even looked if this is already in the 33 wiring or not (?), but I found this pic online showing the connections and my trans has that same wire hanging off the neutral that I can chop up and use.

126008

[boat737]

Now my TKO is installed, I'd like to use the neutral in parallel with clutch too - if only that it'll allow me to start the car from outside.

But to keep it simple, I can literally run wires from the back of the clutch switch to the neutral. I don't believe there's any need for a relay if you don't need all that fancy (flashlight, override), right boat?

I haven't even looked if this is already in the 33 wiring or not (?), but I found this pic online showing the connections and my trans has that same wire hanging off the neutral that I can chop up and use.

126008

If I understand the question correctly, I don't believe you HAVE to run a relay. To be honest, I haven't done any measurements on how much current the starter motor relay draws on a start activation, so I don't know for sure. I used the extra Bosch type relay just because it made more sense to me with running two switches (Neutral safety and Clutch safety) in parallel. That way both those safety switches are simple grounding switches that activate my additional Bosch relay, which is the actual way my starter (relay) gets it's start signal.

If you want both switches without a relay to the starter relay, you would route your wire from your start circuit on the ignition switch, through the neutral and/or clutch switch, to the starter relay. If you want both switches to have to close in order to start (unnecessary IMHO) then wire them in series, i.e., Ignition switch, to clutch switch, to neutral switch, to starter relay all in line. If you want either switch to allow start, then put the neutral switch in parallel with the clutch switch, i.e. Ignition switch, with a) one wire going to clutch safety switch, and b) another wire going to neutral safety switch, and a wire from each of those safety switches to the starter relay. (See my diagram above)

A couple other things to consider. Switches are either Normally Open (NO), or Normally Closed (NC). For example, the brake light switch is a NC switch, meaning that when the brake pedal is at rest and pushing on the switch, it is actually activating the switch and opening the circuit, and turning the brake lights off. When you push the brake pedal, it puts the switch at rest (NC), in other words, deactivating the switch, and closing the circuit to turn the brake lights on. Point being, make sure to use the proper switch, or at least the proper circuit within the switch, for the clutch safety.

Also, the switch noted in the picture above, that is similar to the brake switch, I feel does not offer the proper protection for start safety feature. That switch would close (for a NC) with just a small push on the clutch pedal, in which case the actual clutch would still be engaged on the flywheel and allowing a start with the clutch engaged and trans in gear. This would defeat the purpose of having to push the clutch pedal all the way down and fully disengage the clutch. What I did was to design a switch mount so that a Normally Open (NO) switch would activate and close, only when the clutch pedal is pushed almost fully to the floor, ensuring that the clutch is actually disengaged before the starter circuit can be activated. So the way my system is configured, the clutch pedal has to be depressed fully to allow the start circuit to activate, or the transmission has to be in neutral to allow the start circuit to activate. (Either or both of those conditions will allow a start.). (Note on the pictures, I made two different mounts, hence the different pictures.)

(Side note: I do also have a second clutch switch similar to the brake switch, so that when I just start to push the clutch pedal, AND my parking brake is not fully released, a red light flashes on the dash. Again, I love gizmo's.)

[RoadRacer]

Yep, thanks. I will certainly play with the positioning of the clutch switch to hopefully make it work when the clutch is actually disengaged. Looking forward to putting my car on jack stands and working on these switches.

[Derald Rice]

I guess there's always one in every crowd. Must be I'm it.

First car had neither. Second car had the neutral switch, irritated me no end. Swapped motors and ditched the switch. Did put it in when I swapped back to the original motor prior to selling the car.

However, I started the car with the clutch in and usually in neutral.

No plans for either in the current build. But then I have guns w/o safeties too.

Jim

You're not alone. No safety switches on the car, muscle memory serves me well. But I DO have safeties on my guns.

[boat737]

...But then I have guns w/o safeties too.


...But I DO have safeties on my guns.

Safety's protect the dude in front of the gun, not the guy behind it. No safety's on mine.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread...

[Derald Rice]

Safety's protect the dude in front of the gun, not the guy behind it. No safety's on mine.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread...

If you say so, then it MUST be true.

But I will keep what I have, and you can have what you want. OK?

[Avalanche325]

Safety's protect the dude in front of the gun, not the guy behind it. No safety's on mine.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread...

I have a friend that shot himself in the ankle that would disagree with that statement. So would his Doctor that sees a couple a month that shoot themselves in a, let's say, "more important" part of the anatomy.

[boat737]

My apologies to the OP.

Two things: Front Sight training institute, and, 4 universal firearms safety rules. Google them, live them, know them.

I'll bow out now. Thank you.

[D Stand]

Does anyone have the part number for the FFR switch with both NO and NC contacts? I only have one of the older style brake switch and want to add for the clutch.

[edwardb]

Does anyone have the part number for the FFR switch with both NO and NC contacts? I only have one of the older style brake switch and want to add for the clutch.

The switch FFR supplied for my Coupe build, pictured in post #14 above, is their part number 16283. I believe this has now replaced the former switch in all cases. Unfortunately, the part itself only has one number marked on it. 17173. Nothing else including any manufacturer name, logo, whatever. I wasn't able to get that to cross to anything via Google. So sorry, not much help there.

Having said that, with the switches at the top, again like post #14 above, both brake and clutch would use the NC position. The pedals in the rest position hold them open, and when the pedal is pushed the switch button is released closing the circuit. Applying +12V to the brake lights and closing the starting circuit respectively. So in that regard the switches are interchangeable. One could argue that's not the best solution for a clutch safety switch as it only has to be lightly pushed to close the switch. So the clutch is still engaged if not pushed any further. Granted, most probably wouldn't do that. But still not a perfect safety IMO. Only time you would use the NO position would be if the clutch switch were at the bottom and the switch is closed by pushing the clutch pedal all the way down. Which, BTW, is how the Coyote bottom clutch switch works.