Log in

View Full Version : Fiberglass Tips, Tricks, Methods, and Materials



Mechie3
04-07-2020, 08:00 AM
Blwalker105 did this writeup 3.5 years ago, but it is buried in a thread with a non related thread title. Took me a while to find it, so I wanted to put it in its own thread with a title that will show up when searching. This isn't my work, I just copy pasted everything past these first three sentences.



I would like to encourage anyone wanting to attempt this mod that fiberglass work is a very forgiving medium and if you don't like your results, just grind them off and start over. If you are gutsy enough to build your own car, then this project is WELL within your reach.

Unlike other more expensive mediums, fiberglass work is relatively cheap; you only need a few basic materials and products to be off and running. The real secret lies in the combinations of these goodies.

Here is my list of the basic ingredients needed to complete any fiberglass project from these fender points, to hard point fillets, to panel layups. I get most of my supplies through USComposites.com (no affiliation) because it is almost one-stop shopping. The two exceptions are the adhesive-backed sheet wax which is used to create molds, dams and uniform panel gaps and the peel ply. Just go to eBay and search "Sheet Lining Wax for Carbon Fiber Molds". I recommend having 2 thicknesses: 1/16" and 1/8" inch. The thinner stuff is good for areas where you need minimum clearances and the thicker stuff is great for making uniform final panel gaps if you have to build-up surfaces for finish body work. A 12" x 24" sheet of each will probably last forever unless you do a lot of fiberglass work. Everything past the Peel Ply section is hardware store or Amazon available.



Resin

700 Vinyl Ester Resin - This product is similar to what F5 uses for the body itself. It is strong and very tolerant of mix ratios but has a relatively short shelf life of about 3 months, so don't buy large quantities. The recommended mix ratio IMO is inadequate: you will be waiting forever for it to cure. I use 16 drops hardener per half-ounce and it gives me about 30-45 minutes of working time. I give it a good long time to fully cure cause I hate clogging my sand paper. Plan on doing the 'glass work one day and sanding & shaping the next. You may have read about the addition of wax but I NEVER use it and see no reason to add the additional step of removing it later to prepare for more layups or body work. Wax is used to isolate the resined area of low-mass layups from the atmosphere to help them cure. If I have any areas that are still tacky 8 hrs or so later, I just use a heat gun to lightly warm (140-150 degrees F) them for about 4-5 minutes. In warmer climes, just placing them out in the sunlight for a couple hrs will get the job done.


Fiberglass

Style 7725 Highly Comformable Fiberglass Cloth - This is the best all-around cloth from my experience and I could probably make a pinkie ring for Barbie with it. There are probably places where thicker, hardware store stuff would work, but with this fabric, I just add layers for extra stiffness and strength. It's very lightweight so 2 or 3 plies will usually get the jobs done. Be advised that that more plies or layers you have, the less it wants to conform to tight radii. A couple yards will probably be more than enough for our projects.


Modifiers

Here is where the magic begins and the best part is that it is easy! I routinely use only 2 modifiers: 3M Glass Bubbles and 1/32" Milled Fibers. When I am making slurries or body fillers that have to be sanded down to existing gelcoat, these get the job done without having to resort to Cabosil as a thickener. Cab is great if you want something you can drill and tap later, but for our purposes it cures much harder than the surrounding gelcoat, making final sanding very difficult. The Bubbles and Milled Fiber mixes are easy to sand, shape and are very sturdy on their own. There were plenty of places on my plane where I simply sanded, primed and painted pretty large areas of these mixes and they held up to daily cruising speeds of 225 mph and +4 and -2 G's. (the plane could take +8 and -4, but the pilot couldn't :/). Stout stuff. More on mix ratios later. With these, you can also make the best body filler that money can't buy.



Peel Ply

This product isn't a strict necessity, but it makes for nicer layups by deleting the next sanding step in preparation for body work and it gets rid of those micro grams of extra resin. When cured, just peel it off and you will have a surface ready for body filler or additional layups without the need for any sanding. When doing layups, I simply cut pieces slightly larger than the resined area and apply them directly onto my wetted-out fiberglass as the top layer. Be sure to leave dry perimeters of at least 1" or you won't have anything to grab and peel. It can be found on eBay: something like "Airtech Econostitch Peel Ply 54" for about $4. Peel ply doesn't like to bend and shape itself around corners like the fiberglass, so you sometimes have to get tricky and cut relief slots and/or use multiple pieces to cover your layups. I also have to come back more often with my stipple brush to make sure the peel ply is staying attached to bends and corners until the resin starts to set up, but that is a small price to pay.


Visqueen

One of the first things I learned building my plane was how to prepare layups off-site and be able to carry them to the work area for attachment. If you've ever attempted to make multiple layer layups and transport them even 2 feet away, you will know it is almost impossible to have them keep their shape. The secret is to use a nice medium-to-heavy thickness Visqueen as the bottom and the top layers of your layup. More on this later.


Chip Brushes

I use 1" and 2" chip brushes from Amazon for wetting-out areas with resin and for stippling, then throw them away after each use. They are cheap enough to not have to hassle with cleaning them.


Scissors

Invest in a good, dedicated pair of scissors or shears. Fiberglass is tough on metal. Something like these: https://www.amazon.com/Wiss-W20-8-Inch-Inlaid-Industrial/dp/B005LBMFCY/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1479662502&sr=8-8&keywords=shears


Painter's Tape

Resin does not stick to either side of painter's tape, or wax paper, or anything greased or oiled, but will cure just fine while touching it. Use this to your advantage when making molds and dams for slurries.


Stir Sticks

Standard 1/16" stir stick/tongue depressors. Buy a big box for pennies. Use them for everything from the obvious uses to covering them in painter's tape for mold and dam sides, etc.


That's about it for supplies.

Mechie3
04-07-2020, 08:01 AM
Fender Mod Procedures and General Fiberglass/Resin Techniques


I am going to have to describe how I would have done some of this had I not opted to try it from the A-pillar down first, but here goes.


A lot of what I do here involves the use of resin mixes and slurries, and some of it is just basic fiberglass techniques.


Slurries and Fillers

I use generic clear plastic cups for mixing my resins. For any size cups I buy, I always take one and successively fill it with 1/2 oz water and mark the level, then 1 oz water and mark the level, then 2 oz and so on to about 4 oz. Measure up from the bottom of the cup and record all the measurements. This way you can accurately mix your future resin/hardener blends without having to resort to a tiny measuring cup for each batch. For instance, if I want to use 1/2 oz resin, I use my calipers to measure up 0.3" and mark my fill line. If I want 1 oz, I measure up and mark 0.5". Since you may be new to these processes, I would suggest using 2 cups for each batch. Mix your initial resin/hardener batch in one, then transfer about 1/4 of that into the other cup. The first cup is where you will be blending your slurry and the second cup will be for thinning the first cup back down in case you thicken it with modifiers too much. Add modifiers in small amounts, as they will have very little effect at first, then a very big effect as you near your desired viscosity.

For our purposes, we will concentrate on 4 basic viscosities: honey, honey/mayonnaise, mayonnaise, and peanut butter.

Honey - useful for squeezing into voids, vertical holes and not much else. To each ounce of resin mix, I would aim for a ratio of 1 part Milled Fiberglass and 1 part Glass Bubbles: Start with a half teaspoon of each product, stir thoroughly and continue adding half teaspoons until reaching your desired viscosity.

Honey/Mayonnaise - this is the in-between viscosity best suited for molds like the fender points. Same ratio as above, just mix a little thicker. You want it to be able to flow to the corners but not overflow the mold before you can get get painter's tape over it and it should look something like this.

http://i.imgur.com/sg2SrdF.jpg

Mayonnaise - this consistency is useful for making your own high quality body filler, but be advised: 1 ounce of resin mix will make about 6 or 7 ounces of filler so don't mix up too much! For each ounce of resin mix, aim for a ratio of about 1 part Milled Fibers to 3 parts Glass Bubbles, half teaspoons full at a time. After a little practice, you won't need to go so slowly, but things thicken quickly toward the end. If you have vertical surfaces to fill, thicken a little more toward peanut butter.

Peanut butter - this consistency is good for hard point fillets, vertical body fillers or free-forming.


Do's and Dont's

* Before adding any modifiers to your resin/hardener mix, brush some on every surface you want the slurry to adhere to. This will strengthen the chemical bond.
* Do use painter's tape to keep slurry from flowing out of your mold. Just think of it as the mold's ceiling.
* Never use any modifiers between layers of multi-ply layups...they will significantly weaken the structure. Resin only here.


For starting the fender point mod, I would want to create a sheet-wax mold attached to the rear of the fender. I would first sand the upper rear of the fender area and the wheel well edges to allow the resin to bond with it; resin will not stick to any shiny surfaces very well. Then open the associated door all the way to it's stop and cut a piece of 1/16" wax sheet, sticky side up, to attach under the rear of the fender and form a nice gentle curve up over the door and continue under the a-pillar. This will be the floor of the mold. Now I would cut strips of wax sheet to form the rest of the mold's sides. Use painter's tape if necessary to keep everything together and seal up any corners. Make everything oversize now, cause you will sand it down to finished form later.
Here are some pictures of what the basic mold would have looked like if you can ignore my already-formed points being there.

http://i.imgur.com/d0TKeUH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JjYTZLd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3wphymQ.jpg

Mix up a batch of slurry starting with an ounce of liquid. This should be enough for both fender points. Mix more if necessary. Pour into your molds and use tape if necessary to keep it in there. Let cure.
Remove the wax and tape and carefully grind/sand them down to near your finished profiles. They're tougher than you think but use some caution. If you break one off, just epoxy it back on (kind of what I did) and keep going. You're going to be adding a lot of filler material toward the front of the fender so don't worry about perfection there. Do, however, try to be very precise in forming your new compound-curved wheel arch from the bottom of the points up to their trailing edge: this part will get fiberglass skin and not much filler. You should now have something like this.

http://i.imgur.com/oVWfBAr.jpg

Mechie3
04-07-2020, 08:03 AM
Glassing the fender points

Remove the fenders and place them so the area ready to glass is mostly horizontal. At this point, you can do one of two things: either apply the fiberglass directly onto the surface, one ply at a time or pre-make the layup and apply it as one piece. Either will work just fine. Sometimes, especially if you are doing long, thin layups you may want to choose the latter process, so I'll share it with you.
First, make a paper template of the area you want to glass then transfer it to a piece of Visqueen that's at least 3" larger in each dimension then the template. Turn the Visqueen over so the marker's ink doesn't contaminate your resin and tape it to your work area. Cut out 2 or 3 plies of fiberglass fabric to match your template and prepare some resin mix. Use a chip brush to coat the inside of your template on the Visqueen (it will bead up quickly but don't worry), then add each ply, one at a time slightly staggering any edges that have to be sanded down to existing gelcoat areas. As each ply is applied, use your brush to press it down into the existing resin and coat it entirely. I was taught a "stippling" technique whereby one keeps the tip of the brush in contact with the fiberglass while bobbing the rest of the brush up and down and moving slowly along your work piece. After your last ply is thoroughly wetted-out, place another piece of Visqueen over the entire thing.
Now, cut out your template area, carry it to the car, peel off whichever is going to be the bottom, place the layup down, then peel off the top. I have noticed that vinyl ester resin makes the Visqueen want to roll up more than epoxy resin, so stay with the thicker stuff. Be sure to clean your scissors and prep area with alcohol or acetone before it cures. You WILL forget the scissors sometime, but a razor blade will easily slice the cured resin off the next day.

http://i.imgur.com/X0vllVKl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/X9fEJptl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/D1rVZ86l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Hs1sElLl.jpg

I left this layup long to help it pull down onto the curve of the fender lip, but it really wasn't necessary.
http://i.imgur.com/ieBWwZel.jpg

Mechie3
04-07-2020, 08:03 AM
If you want to use Peel Ply, now is the time.

http://i.imgur.com/Hyu1L5gl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Moj8Bryl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nktnr9Sl.jpg



The rest is pretty self-explanatory. You will need a fair amount of resin filler or body filler to build up the area in front of your points to get rid of the "ski jump" trailing edges of the points, and some filler to blend the lower A-pillar to your new area, but it should be pretty easy by then.

Mechie3
04-07-2020, 08:04 AM
I decided to extend my A-Pillar down to better fit with the hood point, so yesterday I made up a quick mold and filled it in. Here's how it turned out.

http://i.imgur.com/D3YPWPgl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qdZH7I7l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pEMrwT3l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HlGugT3l.jpg


Good Luck and feel free to PM me if you need any specifics answered.

GoDadGo
04-07-2020, 08:09 AM
As a former boat builder, fishing skiffs and pirogues, I can honestly say that your tips are excellent.
So many of them I had long forgotten so thanks for posting this thread.
It will most certainly help us all.

Pearldrummer7
04-07-2020, 10:45 AM
Killer write up, Mechie. Any suggestions on cleaning fiberglass? I have used GooGone and elbow grease to get tire and track gnar off of the body before with decent success.

Bookmarked for sure. Thanks!

flynntuna
04-07-2020, 01:01 PM
Here's a couple of YouTube sites that are helpful
Boatworkstoday and WJP004
Boatworkstoday has good info regarding fiberglass techniques and WJP004 has a lot of race car and mold making videos.

Bob_n_Cincy
04-07-2020, 06:41 PM
Killer write up, Mechie. Any suggestions on cleaning fiberglass? I have used GooGone and elbow grease to get tire and track gnar off of the body before with decent success.

Bookmarked for sure. Thanks!

I use Mothers R3 125855 125869

EDIT: Added cleaned fender for sqarrett

sgarrett
04-07-2020, 06:49 PM
I use Mothers R3 125855 125869

Hmmm...just saying, you might have missed a spot or two there.

Awww...nice!

Mechie3
04-07-2020, 10:43 PM
I just copy pasted everything, I'm still learning all of this myself so....... I dunno. lol. I just wanted to make it easy for everyone to find (and for me).

flynntuna
04-10-2020, 05:54 PM
Here's a video on making a mold for fender flares

https://youtu.be/0AEIGJfPhH8

GoDadGo
04-10-2020, 06:24 PM
I just copy pasted everything, I'm still learning all of this myself so....... I dunno. lol. I just wanted to make it easy for everyone to find (and for me).

Mechie,

Can you please elaborate on your Visqueen Method?
I've done some limited vacuum bagging; however, your Visqueen Method eludes me.
In your pics are you wetting out the cloth, then laying it on top of the desired area and then peeling the Visqueen back so it can be removed?
I am trying understanding your method, but I think I missing something.
Please Advise & Thanks!

Steve

Mechie3
04-10-2020, 08:45 PM
Mechie,

Can you please elaborate on your Visqueen Method?
I've done some limited vacuum bagging; however, your Visqueen Method eludes me.
In your pics are you wetting out the cloth, then laying it on top of the desired area and then peeling the Visqueen back so it can be removed?
I am trying understanding your method, but I think I missing something.
Please Advise & Thanks!

Steve

It's Bill's method. All of these are his methods. I just posted them in a standalone thread.

I think what he's doing is, laying down plastic sheet, building up a multi layer piece on it, wetting it out well, then using the visqueen/plastic as a way to move from the table to the work piece without it falling apart or making a mess.

GoDadGo
04-11-2020, 05:16 AM
Mechie,

I found this video,because I follow Mike Patey, and he shows how do the Visqueen transfer then he does a little vacuum bagging along with other techniques.

https://youtu.be/yNCmw89WFlU

This really shows the art of hard work, visqueening, vacuum bagging, mold making, peal plying, heat boxing, etc.

Steve

RDRP
04-11-2020, 07:24 AM
This guide is fantastic. Thanks for putting in a single thread. I like the subject much better too! I followed it when doing body prep on my 818c. The most important piece to get down early for me, unless you have help, was taking the top on and off by myself and flipping it. I bet the process was repeated 50 times to get the front and back of the doors to mate up like I wanted them to. It was worth the effort.

Sgt.Gator
05-23-2020, 09:40 AM
This thread needs to be stickied.

AZPete
05-23-2020, 12:54 PM
Craig, you've done a great service by compiling this fiberglass info! I used a lot of these techniques posted by Blwalker105 years ago and it enabled me to tastefully solve the door-windshield-fender gap dilemma and a few other body panel extensions. These fiberglass posts remind me of the LIFESAVING posts you put up years ago that showed all the terminals of the donor wiring harnesses. That wiring thread saved my butt and without it I would still be hopelessly tangled up in wires and relays! Thanks again!

After I had extended some body panels, then filled and sanded seams, I looked to the boat sites to find ways to polish gel coat. I found that an excellent polish that makes the surface look almost as if it had been painted is 3M Finesse-it. I had some admirers think my glossy white gel coat was a good paint job.
128882