Best Laid Plans...

[EZ$]

Well, got the car set up yesterday so that I could fill with gas today, (5 gal.), hook up and run the "Set up Wizard" in the FAST FI system, and hopefully get to a first start. Well the day started out with a bunch of items that I had to get taken care of for our business, so I lost most of the morning. No worries, I started getting ready with the car, hooked up the battery, and set up the hand held unit for the FI. Well, first the hand held started coming up with a "Com Error", so after a couple of 30 min. sessions on hold for tech support, it turned out to just be that the unit needed to be calibrated. So, got that done, and started through the screens entering all the info that was requested. Got to the fuel pressure screen, so I hit "Start" which turns the fuel pump on for up to 10 seconds, and adjusted the fuel pressure regulator to exactly 43 lbs. OK, so I went around the car and checked all of the fuel fittings. I had one that just barely had moisture, so I tightened it up. Continued to check the fittings, and of course, found the line where it hooks into the hard line going back to the tank was wet. Of course, this is the most inaccessible fitting on the entire car. Couldn't get wrenches to it from above, so I repositioned the frame, jacked it up, put it on stands, and proceeded to try to access it from underneath. Well, with my horrible eyesight, and not being able to see if I was getting the wrenches on correctly, I still thought I had gotten them a bit tighter. Went back and ran the setup again, got to the fuel pressure, ran the pump, checked the fitting, and of course, it was even wetter that before I tried to tighten it. So now I have a decision to make. I can either disassemble the side pipe on the PS, and remove the header so that I can get my hands in there to tighten the fitting, or I could cut an access panel from inside the PS foot box. Neither are appealing to me at this point. Removing the header with the engine in the car could turn into another nightmare. Cutting the access might be the better solution, and ultimately not many people would ever see it, and the carpet will cover it in the foot box, but there are negatives. Good thing is I have everything I would need to do either, so I don't have to break the stay at home order, and since our work is pretty much shut down, I've definitely got the time. Now if I can just muster the energy to do it. I was so discouraged, I came into the house totally spent. I hope I can convince myself to finish this so I can roll it out on Monday when it stops raining, and finally get to a first start.

Thanks for letting me vent.

[MPTech]

Venting is healthy! Walk away and come back to it after you've cooled down and had time to objectively assess the situation.

(if it was me, I'd opt to try the sidepipe/header removal first, revert to cutting holes as a last option)

understand the frustration, it's part of the process. we've all been there.

Good Luck, it will be running soon and this will all be forgotten.

[EZ$]

Thanks MP. I've been waiting for this for so long I just can't believe how many things can go wrong. I'll take a look at it tomorrow. I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards the access panel. If I need to deal with this again at a later date, I'll have a way to access these fittings. It was stupid of me to not bring these fittings up higher where I could actually reach them. Just one more mistake that has come back to bite me on the as*.

[karlos]

Rick,

A crow's foot on the end of a long extension (or two or three) might do the trick.


-Karl


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124969&d=1585359163

[EZ$]

Karlos, interesting solution. I hadn't thought about that style of wrench. I may see if I can pick up a set of these. I can think of any number of situations that they would solve, plus it would eliminate two rather distasteful options. Thanks for your solution driven thinking.

[Blue Viking]

I am planning the same setup (speedmaster stack and ez efi 2) on my 352. I'd love some pics and info on your setup. What sensors you are using, placement etc. Did you go with the injectors recommended by speedmaster? What distributor are you using? Any info is appreciated.

[CraigS]

Working from Karlos excellent idea here is another.
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-inch-basin-wrench-91958.html?cid=paid_bing|*PLA%20-%20All%20Products|All%20Products|pla-4576785874942154&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=*PLA%20-%20All%20Products&utm_content=All%20Products&msclkid=0779431bdced1651811c1d64f17a3d94
I show this one so you know it doesn't have to be expensive. If you haven't used one before, this is another one w/ the jaws pictured in the position they actually work in
https://www.amazon.com/RIDGID-31175-10-inch-17-inch-Telescoping/dp/B0009W6THM
It's in the loosen position, you flip the jaws over to the other side to tighten. Depending on the length you need this one looks to be adjustable. They jaws are like a pipe wrench so they may ugly the fitting but, as you, say no one will see it.

[ptstew]

Working from Karlos excellent idea here is another.
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-inch-basin-wrench-91958.html?cid=paid_bing|*PLA%20-%20All%20Products|All%20Products|pla-4576785874942154&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=*PLA%20-%20All%20Products&utm_content=All%20Products&msclkid=0779431bdced1651811c1d64f17a3d94
I show this one so you know it doesn't have to be expensive. If you haven't used one before, this is another one w/ the jaws pictured in the position they actually work in
https://www.amazon.com/RIDGID-31175-10-inch-17-inch-Telescoping/dp/B0009W6THM
It's in the loosen position, you flip the jaws over to the other side to tighten. Depending on the length you need this one looks to be adjustable. They jaws are like a pipe wrench so they may ugly the fitting but, as you, say no one will see it.
Yup, basin wrenches work great. I’ve had one for decades and used many times on both my sink tap fittings and my car. Good thinking.

[Al_C]

Well, got the car set up yesterday so that I could fill with gas today, (5 gal.), hook up and run the "Set up Wizard" in the FAST FI system, and hopefully get to a first start. Well the day started out with a bunch of items that I had to get taken care of for our business, so I lost most of the morning. No worries, I started getting ready with the car, hooked up the battery, and set up the hand held unit for the FI. Well, first the hand held started coming up with a "Com Error", so after a couple of 30 min. sessions on hold for tech support, it turned out to just be that the unit needed to be calibrated. So, got that done, and started through the screens entering all the info that was requested. Got to the fuel pressure screen, so I hit "Start" which turns the fuel pump on for up to 10 seconds, and adjusted the fuel pressure regulator to exactly 43 lbs. OK, so I went around the car and checked all of the fuel fittings. I had one that just barely had moisture, so I tightened it up. Continued to check the fittings, and of course, found the line where it hooks into the hard line going back to the tank was wet. Of course, this is the most inaccessible fitting on the entire car. Couldn't get wrenches to it from above, so I repositioned the frame, jacked it up, put it on stands, and proceeded to try to access it from underneath. Well, with my horrible eyesight, and not being able to see if I was getting the wrenches on correctly, I still thought I had gotten them a bit tighter. Went back and ran the setup again, got to the fuel pressure, ran the pump, checked the fitting, and of course, it was even wetter that before I tried to tighten it. So now I have a decision to make. I can either disassemble the side pipe on the PS, and remove the header so that I can get my hands in there to tighten the fitting, or I could cut an access panel from inside the PS foot box. Neither are appealing to me at this point. Removing the header with the engine in the car could turn into another nightmare. Cutting the access might be the better solution, and ultimately not many people would ever see it, and the carpet will cover it in the foot box, but there are negatives. Good thing is I have everything I would need to do either, so I don't have to break the stay at home order, and since our work is pretty much shut down, I've definitely got the time. Now if I can just muster the energy to do it. I was so discouraged, I came into the house totally spent. I hope I can convince myself to finish this so I can roll it out on Monday when it stops raining, and finally get to a first start.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Rick, I think we've all been there. Many times I would choose inaction because I either didn't know how to deal with it or not want to make yet another mistake. Venting is good, and Craig and Karlos' solutions are even better. As for me, I had leaks with the hard line connections in the engine bay as well. My solution was to scrap the whole hard line set up and go with a single flexible line from the fuel filter in the rear to the fuel pressure regulator in the engine bay and another flexible line from the fuel pressure regulator all the way back. A bit more drastic, but it eliminated the possibility of leaks in places I couldn't access.

Access hole, remove the header, crow's foot socket, whatever. Sometimes we just need to sleep on it a night or two and the answer appears.

[Joel Hauser]

I don't know how many times I had referred to my build as a 2000 pound paper weight. Every problem seemed insurmountable, until I surmounted it. Is that even a word? In the words of a man who had much greater things in mind, “It always seems impossible until it's done.” ― Nelson Mandela

[EZ$]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Oystein, Here's a shot from just before I started this run up to first start.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997099213_174599623f_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2g8kFpk)IMAG1278 (https://flic.kr/p/2g8kFpk) by Rick Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156322842@N02/), on Flickr
Gordon Levy built the motor, and I believe it's just a stock distributor, not sure. As far as sensors, etc., a water temp., air temp., idle air control motor, throttle position sensor, are a few that come to mind off the top of my head, that I needed to add when installing the FI. If you need specific part numbers, let me know and I'll look them up.

Craig & PT, I actually own one, for when I'm doing that other type of plumbing that also usually work out well! Unfortunately, for this fitting I'd need two wrenches.

Al, I considered cutting off that last leg of hard line leading up to these fittings, so that I could place the fittings where I could access them, and just extend the flexible line up from there. But, now with fuel in the system, I wonder what kind of nightmare I may get into with raw fuel everywhere.

Again, thanks guys. It's raining today which is matching my mood, so I think I'm going to think about it a bit, and make a decision, and try to get it done tomorrow, so I can roll it out in the driveway Monday when the weather is supposed to break.

[phileas_fogg]

Rick,

I had a leak in the same place as you. I ended up taking the flex line off the fuel rail on top of the engine, taking off the brackets that secured the flex line to the 3/4" frame at the back of the engine, and took the hard lines loose from the 4" tube. That gave me enough wiggle room to bring the leaking fitting down below the car where I could get to it.

Hang in there; you'll get it.


John

[EZ$]

Thanks John. Another great idea that I'll take a look at later today as I try to determine what my strategy will be for tomorrow. Did you have to deal with very much fuel leakage when you took that flex line off the fuel rail?

Does anyone have an idea of how much fuel I'm likely to have to deal with if I was to cut the hard lines down around the 4" frame rail so that I could move the fittings to a location that I could access?

[Al_C]

Rick,

If you're willing to give cutting the fuel line a try, I think you're only dealing with an ounce or two of fuel on each line you might deal with. (72 inch 3/8 inch line volume should be about .8 cubic inches)

[EZ$]

Thanks Al. Never worked on FI systems before, and wasn't sure if fuel would continue to siphon from the tank if the hose was cut through. I may consider cutting just above the 4" frame rail, after the hard lines make the bend, and then it would just be whatever is in the upper portion of the fuel lines. I've been stalling about going into the garage because I'm not too keen on having to deal with this right now, but I need to get it done so, time to bite the bullet. I'd probably need to get more flex line and fittings to replace the shorter pieces I'd be replacing.

[AC Bill]

So are these leaking fittings, your typical compression flare type?

If so, I would opt to get the proper line wrench's for tightening them, or you may round off the fittings. Plus you can get much better tension on the fittings.
They do have this style available, if they would be better for accessing the fittings.

https://www.matcotools.com/productassets/web-400x400/BLW12SAE_ProductImage_PrimaryImage_400.jpg

[EZ$]

Hey thanks Bill. I have one or two of those style. I'll just have to check to see if they fit. At this point I think I'm going to go with John's idea of releasing all the clamps holding the hard lines to the 4" tube, so that I can drop the lines down, cut off the upper portion which takes the fittings into an area I can't access, put the fittings back on the new cut lines, and make new longer flexible lines to replace the old. I've got an email in to Mark at Breeze regarding whether these style fittings can be reused. Do you have any idea? One of the good things about doing this is that I can move the fuel lines even further away from the headers. Also, if I need to access the fittings down the road, I'll have a way to accomplish it. I definitely going to check to see if the wrenches I have will fit the nuts, and maybe pick some up if they don't.
Again thanks.

[CraigS]

You can easily catch the gas that runs out of the line. My only concern is whether there would be a siphon effect that would try to empty the tank. To avoid that maybe you can open the line at the tank connection. Anyone have an idea about a siphon?

[egchewy79]

Not sure about the siphon effect. I would say yes, if the fuel line ran all the way to the bottom of the tank, which it doesn't. I'm assuming you're running an in-tank fuel pump, which would probably prevent free flow of fuel by gravity alone. I also like Craig's idea of disconnecting the line at the tank, only needing to drain the few ounces of fuel in your line.
On a different topic, why did you cut the front PS frame at the end of your angled 3/4" tube?

[phileas_fogg]

Thanks John. Another great idea that I'll take a look at later today as I try to determine what my strategy will be for tomorrow. Did you have to deal with very much fuel leakage when you took that flex line off the fuel rail?

Does anyone have an idea of how much fuel I'm likely to have to deal with if I was to cut the hard lines down around the 4" frame rail so that I could move the fittings to a location that I could access?

Not much fuel leakage at all...maybe a tablespoon. It was easy to mop up with a paper towel (which I then burned in my BBQ grill so I didn't have to worry about it somehow catching fire later). I also didn't have any trouble with a siphon effect; I think my in-tank pump prevented that.

I would be leery of cutting the hard line & then putting a fitting on it. How do you know you didn't get a metal shaving in the line? My fuel injection system specifies a 10u fuel filter, presumably to keep anything from clogging the injectors. Just the smallest speck could mess me up. So if you do decide to cut the hard line, I recommend you blow it out with compressed air.


John

[Blue Viking]

Thanks for the pic Rick. I see you have a different setup than me, with the fuel rails on the outside. Mine are on the inside, hence the interference with the distributor. When I get the engine home I'll have to measure for clearance. Hopefully the FAST recommended distributor will fit. It is plug and play with the EZ Efi 2.0, which will allow the system to control the spark as well. Don't worry about he sensors, they may not be for me anyway since the whole stack is different. Curious as to where you are mounting the IAT sensor though. Pleas post a video when you get it started.

[EZ$]

Thanks Craig.

egchewy, I'll probably disconnect the other end to avoid the possibility, and to be able to blow the line out before I reconnect. Not sure what you're referencing on the frame cut. No cuts made there. What did you see?

John, I'll make sure to blow the line out before I reconnect everything. That would have been the perfect setup for my next disaster!

Oystein, I believe it's the same basic system, just about four years older than yours. Like everything that I've done, shortly after I buy something it gets redesigned to work better, or look better. FFR's release of the FIA about a year after I pulled the trigger on using Mr. Bruce's FIA body is a prime example.

[Blue Viking]

Yeah, I know the feeling. I "knew" there was a 25th anniversary version coming up, but I didn't want to wait any longer, so I pulled the trigger. I would have loved to have the changes on the body, but if one is always going to wait for the final perfect version of things, nothing would get done. The kit is real, and it is sitting in my garage for me to touch. Still pinching my arm to check if I'm dreaming. As for the intake, I like the feel of the mechanics of it. Not overly impressed with the finish of the manifold itself, will probably paint it black. It didn't come with the special provision for the IAC valve under the throttle control, had to have them send it. Will have a remote MAP sensor, have drilled a hole in one of the trumpets for the IAT sensor. Also, they say you need a vacuum canister, which i have bought, but not so sure as this has a plenum which I'm sure will provide a stable vacuum signal. Also not needing vacuum for brakes as i am going hydroboost. Keep on sharing your experience with the stack, great info for me and I'm sure others too.

Oystein.

[egchewy79]

i think it's an optical illusion. in your pic, I see a black "tube" coming off the PS frame in the front, above the radiator. it looked like there was a free end to this tube, where it might have been cut. looking again, I see another black tube coming off the DS as well that is blending in w/ the tire in the background. what are these tubes for? is this specific for the 289 b/c my MK4 kit doesn't have these?

[EZ$]

Oystein, I'll definitely try to post progress as I attempt to move forward. I've found Speedmaster to be really receptive to questions, and ready to help out when you hit a snag.

egchewy, those are actually the gas prop rods for the hood. I've had the body on, and set up the hood props back before I put the engine in, and left the props in place. They've never been in the way so I saw no reason to remove them. They were actually there when the engine was put in.

[EZ$]

So, I spent the better part of today redesigning the fuel line system to put all the fittings into locations that I can at least get to with my hands. Was able to correct an issue that I had with the fuel lines a bit closer to the back edge of the header than I was comfortable with. Got a decent space now. Well, started back through the FAST setup wizard, ran the fuel pressure up to operating, 43 lbs., checked all the fittings, especially on the new plumbing I did today, and no leaks! Yeah! Well the next step in the wizard was to start it up. Rolled it out into the driveway, and gave it a crank. Had a bit of a backfire through the side pipes at first, but then it fired, ran a bit rough for a few seconds, and then it smoothed out into a fast idle. I was amazed that I didn't get a bunch of smoke through the side pipes. I was told that it would run pig rich when it first started, and smoke a bunch, but not really anything. I was having an issue with some gauges not appearing to operate properly, but the oil pressure registered 60 lbs., so I was happy with that. Was getting a minor amount of smoke from the engine compartment, could have just been oily hand prints on the headers, etc., but I decided to pull it back in the garage, and give it a go again tomorrow. Now I know, "no video, didn't happen". Well, new phone in the hands of my lovely wife, and when I went back to see what she had recorded, there was nothing. The only saving grace was that the Ring camera on the front of the garage got the start! Now all I have to do is figure how to download the video from my phone into my computer. Technology challenged. I have to say that by everything that is holy, this thing is hella loud!! Actually scared the crap out of me when it first fired. Expected loud, but not quite that level.

Now to some things that I noticed when I pulled back in the garage and shut it down. The PS wasn't operating the way I expected. The wheel was heavier than I think it should be, so I checked the PS pump, and the fluid was foamed up. I know that the system is not completely full, but the level in the reservoir was visible, but like I said foamy. Any idea what could cause that? Also, the fuel gauge went to full even though it only has 5 gal. in the tank. I feel like there was a setting I needed to do on that, but can't remember.

Anyway, I'll work on trying to get the video from the Ring camera downloaded and attach it here. If that doesn't work, I'm hoping to get it running again tomorrow, and I'm going to use a different camera. All I can say is that was the best feeling, even as nervous as it made me, that I've had since I began this journey! There were days that I just wanted to roll it out into the court, and wait for someone to take it away. Now they'll have to pry it from my cold dead fingers!

[EZ$]

OK, so let's see if I can do this.
https://ring.com/share/6810181800486956352
https://ring.com/share/6810182376012574016

I hope these work.

[Boydster]

Videos work! That thing is LOUD!!

Hilarious to see your neighbors walking by to see what that boy is up to now. You wouldn't get more attention with a P-51 in the driveway. ;)

Congrats on first start and getting it all worked out. Huge step!

[KDubU]

Congrats and yes she is loud! I would say you likely have air in the power steering, at least that is my guess.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Cycle the steering full left and full right slowly a dozen times or so to help purge air from the pump and rack. You may need to do this through a couple of heat and cool cycles.

Speedhut/FFR gauges? if so you need to go through the calibration process. If you're using something else the sender and gauge must match. Pegged full can also indicate an open in the circuit.

Congrats on the first start!

Jeff

[chuckster]

Sounds like my 289 USRRC did when I first ran it. Tried cats instead of J pipes, toned it down a bit, but did not like the “look”. Went with Bob Boig’s “quieter” pipes, and I couldn’t be happier.

Cnutting has some videos with before and after, that have pretty good audio.

[Al_C]

Rick, congratulations on the first start! I'm glad you got the fuel lines sorted out. I know that was a stress item for you. Loved the video, too. Sounds like open headers...

Now you just need to take it out into the neighborhood!

[EZ$]

Boyd, Thanks, yeah I didn't see the neighbors until I saw the video.It was so loud they probably won't walk in the court again!

Kyle, Thanks, I was surprised by how loud it was. I was also thinking it might be air in the PS.

Jeff, Thanks, I'll start to take care of that today. They are Speedhut gauges. I'll have to dig the paperwork out and review the process.

Chuck, Thanks, from what I had read on the forum, I knew it would be loud, but HOLY CRAP! Right now I can't afford the Boig quite pipes. Some day maybe, or maybe invest in some good ear plugs.

Al, Thanks. The rework of the fuel lines caused some stress too. Need to check out some bugs over the next few days, and then go terrorize the neighborhood! I'll have to be careful. With no traffic on the roads around here during this mess, it's pretty quite around here, and the police department is only about 3 miles away. They'll probably hear me!!

Thanks to everyone for your help and support. Without you guys it just wouldn't have gotten done!

[Papa]

Congrats, Rick! Love the look of those stacks.

Dave

[EZ$]

Thanks Dave. Right now I'm glad I went this way. Like everything else, that opinion may change LOL!

[Blue Viking]

WOW! That was noisy, sounds great though. Do the stacks contribute to the noise in any way, or is it exhaust noise only?

[EZ$]

I don't think the stacks contribute to the decibel level, but I really don't know. My wife thinks I'm going to get tickets, once it's on the road, because of the noise! At this point she might not want to even ride in it, but I'll convince her. I have to say that the only time I've heard one this loud was down at Laguna Seca in 2012, when the Cobra had it's fifty year anniversary. The cars on the track were deafening, and they have to meet a lower decibel level because of the surrounding residential properties.

[rich grsc]

I have stacks, and if I don't use earplugs at 5000 rpm's blood shoots out my ears. :rolleyes:
I always thought it was just the Factory Five pipes.

[EZ$]

Rich, So seriously, the stacks add that much to the decibels level? I would never have anticipated that. I just thought it was the side pipes.

[Avalanche325]

I have stacks, and if I don't use earplugs at 5000 rpm's blood shoots out my ears. :rolleyes:
I always thought it was just the Factory Five pipes.

Wow. I didn't think it would be possible to make my car any louder than it already is. There's always room for "improvement".

[EZ$]

Well, I went out to pull it out of the garage, allow it to idle up to temp, but I was having trouble getting the trans into reverse. Hoping that I didn't screw it up when I rebuilt it. Anyhow, it was idling in the garage for just a few minutes, so I decided to crank the front wheels back and forth lock to lock to try to purge some air. Wasn't having any luck hitting reverse, so I shut it down. Immediately heard a mild pop, and the PS reservoir cap popped out, and luckily didn't land on the headers. In initially searching for the cap, I noticed that the J pipes had seriously "blued".
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49721180623_597e2cd3ee_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iKG3JT)P3310122 (https://flic.kr/p/2iKG3JT) by Rick Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156322842@N02/), on Flickr

I'm not sure, but should these "blue" that fast? I got concerned that I may be running lean, but not sure how that would be possible with the system set up. Anyone got any ideas? I think the trans not going into reverse may just be an adjustment on the linkage. I moved the stop bolt back a tiny bit after I shut it down, and could feel the lever seat into place better. Once I'm sure that I'm not running lean, I'll check it out again.
On another note, I noticed that the tach is not operating. Gonna have to figure that one out.

[chuckster]

I do not think it is unusual for stainless steel J Pike to quickly blue.

[EZ$]

Thanks Chuck. That's what I'm hearing. Even the side pipes have started to turn blue, so I guess until I get them ceramic coated that's the way it'll be.

[Blue Viking]

125478125479

Here's a couple of pics of my engine. Just got it back from the builder and have started assembling the stacks.

[EZ$]

Sweet! I kind of wish they had the fuel rails on the inside when I got mine. It makes for a clean look. By the way, if that's your shop, I'm really jealous!