100 miles and first major electrical issue [Archive]

Dagwoods

03-08-2020, 11:40 AM

Good morning,

So after getting my roadster registered and on the road for about 100 trouble free miles, an electrical problem has killed my chances of 100 more this weekend.

Main issue is that I went to start car in morning and all of the guages, in tank fuel pump, and sniper efi system powered up with key in on position. After waiting for about three seconds for the sniper to prime, I turned the key and got maybe a 1/4 turn from starter before all power shut off. Gauges, fuel pump and starter all died. All fuses in fuse test fine. This is with a standard Ron Francis harness and hardly any deviation form standard wiring.

I still have power to efi system, which is wired direct to battery (hand held tuner measuring 12.8 volts). I checked voltage at solonoid on mini starter and battery and both look good (so it's not my disconnect switch that the battery to starter is wired through).

First thought is either a failed solonoid or a short to ground. I can hear the solonoid switching when I turn key to on position.

I also disconnected all of the dash harnesses to try and isolate it further. With all dash disconnected, it still doesn't attempt to start and the fuel pump does not run with key in on position like it should.

Any thoughts on where to start? Could a bad solonoid cause this issue? Or is a short more likely? The only thing I have done in the last week besides drive is add 10 gallons of gas, adjusted my alignment, which required me to jack car up a couple times and adjusted the brake balance bar and brake safety switch. I disconnect brake safety switch just in case while troubleshooting and no change to electrical issue.

Thanks for any ideas.

Olli

03-08-2020, 11:44 AM

Failed ignition switch? (yet another...)

Olli

Dagwoods

03-08-2020, 11:52 AM

Thanks. I thought about that, and I can test further, but when I turn key to on position it Powers up the efi handheld tuner and I hear the solonoid clicking. I would think that would mean that it is at least working in the on position and would expect fuel pump and gauges to also work at that position.

Didn't know ffr iginiton switches were common fail items. I will keep an eye out check it out. Thanks.

Papa

03-08-2020, 12:01 PM

How did you run the three power leads (Battery, Alternator, Ignition) in the RF harness? Did you run them all to the post on the starter or did you do something different? If you have power at the starter, which is fed by the battery cable, you should also have power at the fuse box at the BATT FED section (headlight, radio memory, courtesy lights, brake lights, horn, and fan). If you have power to these, then check the ACC circuits (gauge, radio, wiper, heater) with the key in ACC position. This is where your gauge power comes from. Same for IGN FED portion of the fuse block (fuel pump, EFI/coil, choke, turn signal). Both ACC and IGN blocks are fed through the ignition switch, as is the starter trigger. If you have nothing in either the ACC and/or IGN blocks, I agree it is likely the ignition switch.

Dave

Dagwoods

03-08-2020, 12:26 PM

Thanks Dave. All three power wires to the starter post. I have nothing in either block. Ill bust the ignition switch connectors out and ohm it.

Furrman

03-08-2020, 12:37 PM

How much voltage in the battery? 14v or 10v, are you sure the alternator was charging?

Dagwoods

03-08-2020, 01:23 PM

It's not the igg switch. Checked fine with multimeter and I had a spare lying around that I swapped in. No change. Battery had 13.8v and was charging fine prior.

Furrman

03-08-2020, 01:55 PM

don't know if this will help, but, I once had a starter on a SBF that would stick. I think the heat from header caused it. I found that a tap with a hammer freed it up.

Papa

03-08-2020, 05:45 PM

It's not the igg switch. Checked fine with multimeter and I had a spare lying around that I swapped in. No change. Battery had 13.8v and was charging fine prior.

If the switch tested good, do you get power at the fuse block in the ACC and IGN sections? Do you have power at the switch for those two feeds? Just keep working backward from the battery. Does the battery have amps? It could show full voltage, but not be producing enough amperage to get the starter to turn the engine over. Have you tried to jump it or use a different battery?

Just puttering

03-09-2020, 12:56 AM

1 should not be a short, a short should blow a fuse or melt wires.

2 a terminal on a battery that is not tight or has corrosion can let the electrical work untill you give it a load (starter) and then it can "open" and you will get the everything turning off symptom, check all main power wires and grounds.

3 have any symptoms changed when you check it again? Still have efi but nothing else?

4 have someone help (clutch and break) and try to jump the starter directly, see if it is working and if the wireing to it is ok!
Then work backwards as stated above

Dagwoods

03-09-2020, 07:32 AM

Thanks for taking the time to respond with all the ideas. I had to work last night and today, but should be getting back to this tonight.

I only got as far as verifying power at the one wire alternator and the back of the fuse panel and switch. I also checked the battery terminals. They are tight and corrosion free. Symptoms have not changed at all.

Like both of you said, I will start ringing wires out. I think it is not actual wiring, bit more of a component issue, but I haven't found anything yet that would account for all the symptoms.

sread

03-09-2020, 10:21 AM

an internal failure in the battery (cracked plate or connector strap) will act like that - will show full voltage till you put a load on it and then nothing. Try a battery swap or measure voltage while trying to crank and see what happens

Norm B

03-09-2020, 05:02 PM

Bad connection at the battery is my first suspect followed by engine grounding strap. There is also the possibility of a bad starter or starter solenoid.

Good Luck

Norm

Dagwoods

03-09-2020, 05:37 PM

Just a quick update on where I stand. Checked engine ground and it is good. Checked battery and all connections are good. Tried to jump it using another battery and no change.

Since main symptoms were gauges and fuel pump went dead (and everything else) decided to start there. I have 11.9v going into cb panel. Reading the gauge feed, brown wire at dash harness, I have 8v when in acc. It is 0v in ign. Reading tan fuel pump wire at rear harness, I have 0v in ign. Assuming the gauge feed should be higher voltage.

Still digging in. Keep the ideas coming. Thanks.

Dagwoods

03-09-2020, 05:58 PM

Should also mention that I did check the inertia switch and it is operating as expected. Closed when button is pushed, open after I knock it a bit with a wrench.

Xkuzme1

03-09-2020, 08:14 PM

If you jump the solenoid, does it turn over?

If you jump start it, does it turn over?

Add in an extra grounding stap to the engine. To me is sounds like a bad engine ground. Test it by jumper cables from the negative on the battery to the engine.

X

cob427sc

03-10-2020, 08:06 AM

I think it's in the starter/solenoid. Put a test light on the solenoid lead and hit the starter, see if you have power from the ignition switch to the solenoid. If there is power here and you already checked for power to the starter from the battery cable I would try jumping the solenoid with either a screwdriver or wire. The engine should turn over when jumping the solenoid. If it doesn't, either the solenoid is bad, the starter is bad or if you here everything lock up --- something in the engine/transmission is not right.

Bob-STL

03-10-2020, 12:03 PM

[QUOTE=Dagwoods;402068

Main issue is that I went to start car in morning and all of the guages, in tank fuel pump, and sniper efi system powered up with key in on position. After waiting for about three seconds for the sniper to prime, I turned the key and got maybe a 1/4 turn from starter before all power shut off. Gauges, fuel pump and starter all died. All fuses in fuse test fine. This is with a standard Ron Francis harness and hardly any deviation form standard wiring.

I still have power to efi system, which is wired direct to battery (hand held tuner measuring 12.8 volts). I checked voltage at solonoid on mini starter and battery and both look good (so it's not my disconnect switch that the battery to starter is wired through).

[/QUOTE]

If you turn the key to power up the efi hand held, do all the sensors read correctly(including the RPM sensor-probably "Stall")?

cob427sc

03-10-2020, 02:53 PM

I'm not familiar with the Sniper hookup you have, but is there a possibility that there is some anti-theft program in the ECU preventing you from starting? This was a big issue early on with the GTM and also the roadsters built with early Ford anti-theft software (did both, major issues to resolve). The gtm would start and run for 5 seconds and shut down. The roadster would light up all the gauges, turn over the engine but not fire the injectors.

Dagwoods

03-10-2020, 05:43 PM

Thanks for suggestions. Starting to look at again right now.

Cob427 I have the ministarter with built in solonoid. I assume what you said still is true. I did verify power from switch to solonoid. But I did not try to jumper it. Do I jumper from power to the light blue starter solonoid? Sorry a bit new to the solonoid thing. No search found any anti theft on the sniper unit.

Edit: looked online and saw that I do jumper to blue start solonoid post. If I don't have a helper to push in clutch can I just disconnect clutch safety switch?

Bob the handheld tuner Powers up fine reading stall for rpm and giving me a good temp and says no learn where it should when not running.

I'll update more if I find anything. I'm going to pull all fuses except for acc devices and see if my voltage goes up on the gauge feed first.

Dagwoods

03-10-2020, 07:49 PM

Well, pulled the starter/solonoid from car and hooked it up to
a battery and jumpered the power post to the small starter post and it turned over no problem. At first I tried it on the car and couldn't get it to turn over.

Also I first tried using the remote battery terminals on the roadster and I got nothing besides what I can only describe as a whine from front of vehicle. I'm alone tonight, so couldn't tell where it was from coming from. Obviously I got something going on with a ground or short somewhere I'm thinking.

emac

03-11-2020, 09:45 AM

Coolant fan?

Norm B

03-11-2020, 10:04 AM

I am installing a Sniper EFI and Hyper Spark distributor as part of my winter upgrades and have been doing a lot of research on them. Be very careful messing with electrical problems with them ( especially the Sniper) connected to power. I would suggest disconnecting them until you get your starter working correctly.

PeteH

03-11-2020, 03:43 PM

Dagwood,
This sounds like an open circuit somewhere. I had several intermittent issues with connections that turned out to be severed factory crimps on the spade connectors in the Ron Francis harness, causing open circuit found by wiggling the connectors with power on. Mine showed up during initial circuit testing. Had to install several new spade connectors, crimped and soldered. You might consider pulling spade connections from the ignition switch and starter circuits to ensure there are not broken crimps within the plastic sheaths.
I did advise F5 about this problem during my build a few years ago.

Boydster

03-12-2020, 01:11 PM

Really still sounds like a bad battery, esp with the starter testing good out of the car. When you jumped off another battery, did you disconnect the original? If its still hooked up and you just piggy backed another battery, if the first battery has a short or busted plates, it can suck down every bit of voltage like a black hole sucks in light. Totally get the old battery out of the circuit (disconnect it!) then try jumping to the car cables with a good battery.

Dagwoods

03-12-2020, 10:17 PM

Ok. Maybe a dumb question, but should the starter post on mini starter solonoid(where blue starter wire connects) read to ground with and without clutch pedal pushed in ? I don't think it should, but I've been wrong once before.

At this point, I think I just have a bad starter/solonoid. After checking on car at first, it didn't check good(tried to jumper and nothing,). Removing and checking, which probably involved knocking it around a litle bit, it jumpered fine and turned over. When I reinstalled it did the same thing as my first post. Fuel pump came on, and after a 1/4 crank all power died.

Just checking before I order a new mini starter.

michael everson

03-13-2020, 03:36 AM

Disconnect the blue wire from the starter and try starting it again. Did all your gauges and fuel pump die? If so its not the starter. It sounds like the starter is pulling so much power that everything else is shutting down. Could be battery, or starter. Start with the cheapest.
Mike

rich grsc

03-13-2020, 07:45 AM

Ok. Maybe a dumb question, but should the starter post on mini starter solonoid(where blue starter wire connects) read to ground with and without clutch pedal pushed in ? I don't think it should, but I've been wrong once before.

Yes, it will read to ground. Disconnect the positive cable from the battery, then connect your jumper cables to a good ground, and the positive starter cable. Then try again and see if it's the same results.

Dagwoods

03-15-2020, 09:12 AM

Wish I had a better update. So to review the major items that I think are eliminated:

-swapped starter
-swapped battery
-swapped ignition switch
-all grounds checked and re tightened. I plan on running a second ground to engine block today.

I have twice had it appear like the original problem, where i turned on key and the fuel pump started, but then all power dies after a 1/4 crank of engine as soon as i turned the key. No clear reason why it happened when it did and it is not repeatable, when i tried to mess with wire or component that i had last touched.

I do have a repeatable issue that I can measure using the remote terminals as test points. Terminals on the Battery read approx 12.48v at all times

-with key position in batt and everything hooked up and with disconnect switch off, remote terminals read 12.48v
-with key position in batt and everything hooked up and disconnect turned on, voltage drops to 1.1v
-removing alternator (single wire alternator) power wire voltage jumps back up to 12.48v with key in batt position

-turning key to on position drops voltage to 3.2v.
-removing the red wire that feeds the cb panel from the ignition switch, voltage jumps back up to 12.48v with switch in on position

I've been trying to find a common point of failure and have so far been unable to. I have also been tracking out wires point to point and checking any short to grounds, but haven't found anything yet. Getting a little frustrated, but definitely learning my wiring better.

Cheers.

65 Cobra Dude

03-15-2020, 09:31 AM

Simple thing to try is bypass the main disconnect switch and connect the wires together to see if that has an effect? With all that you’ve done, it’s going to be something simple.

Henry

Papa

03-15-2020, 09:46 AM

Are you sure the engine turns over and isn't seized? I don't think anyone has posed that possibility, although very unlikely.

cob427sc

03-15-2020, 10:04 AM

I mentioned the possibilty of the engine/tranny being seized awhile back. Have you tried turning it over by hand? If something is locked up the starter would draw all the power just like a dead short.

Just puttering

03-15-2020, 10:10 AM

Maybe disconect the alternator and the red wire to the cb panel then test to see if it will crank. I would want to get the point that i could crank the engine. That narrows down your issues, then work on what you disconected. With a voltage drop that great dont skip touching wires to see if any are hot!

Dagwoods

03-15-2020, 10:11 AM

Engines not siezed. I hand turned it a couple days ago. My first goal is to get the fuel pump (and gauges, etc) to turn on when ignition in on.

Norm B

03-15-2020, 11:50 AM

Are you using the supplied Sniper fuel pump wiring or a fuel pump relay on your chassis electrical system? This is important because the Sniper fuel pump relay is ground activated by the Sniper EFI unit. It is designed to run the pump for a couple of seconds after key on and then shut down until rpm is detected. If you installed the Sniper as instructed by Holley then it has an independent ground and power source directly from the battery. This removes the engine ground from the fuel pump circuit. Only an interruption of your hot in run and start circuit, the pink wire on your Sniper wiring harness, can cause the fuel pump (and tach) not to operate correctly.

All your other electrical engine gauges rely on the engine ground to provide an accurate signal.

From your description of what is going on it seems like you have a bad connection somewhere on the positive side of the circuit. A direct short causing that large of voltage drop should result in smoking wires and blown fuses.

I would do the following

Remove the battery cutoff switch from the circuit as already recommended.

Check all crimped connections of the main positive cable.

HTH
Norm

CobraKan

03-20-2020, 09:43 PM

My mechanic always says check the ground. Several times he has helped and it was always the ground.

Dagwoods

03-23-2020, 05:45 PM

Uncle. I'm out of ideas. Redid all grounds, replaced battery, ign switch, relays, jumpered around cut off switch, swapped starters, talked with Holley about efi, read wires etc.

Anyone know of a good electrical person in dallas area?

Norm B

03-23-2020, 06:09 PM

One last suggestion. You can eliminate all the wires except the heavy gauge wire from the battery to the starter, the battery ground wire and the engine ground wire as the source of your problem with this test.

First make absolutely certain the car is in neutral. Then via a switch, wire or a screw driver directly connect the small post on the starter to positive battery voltage. I have a switch with alligator clips designed for this purpose. This will turn the engine over even with the ignition switch off. If it doesn’t turn over then the problem is with the previously mentioned items, the battery or the starter.

Good Luck

Norm

phileas_fogg

03-24-2020, 07:53 AM

This is the type of switch Norm is talking about. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B002YKFA3G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 There are cheaper versions available.

John

Dagwoods

03-24-2020, 06:45 PM

Thanks again guys. This link to video is with everything disconnected except main power cable to starter. Engine turns over fine by hand. https://photos.app.goo.gl/wGpSDp2LmStMFH2g8

Papa

03-24-2020, 07:11 PM

Starter alignment? I think you checked the starter off the car, but could bendix be binding? Sure sounds like a what a bad battery sounds like.

Dagwoods

03-24-2020, 09:41 PM

I would be saying the same thing papa. It's the second battery and 3rd starter and both the originals and the replacements exhibit same behavior. Had both sets of battery's and starters checked at parts store. They don't do a load test on starter, but I believe the battery tests.

BTW I grew up on Delbert road down there in Parker. I didn't recognize the town last time I was though there.

Old Timer

03-24-2020, 10:43 PM

Thanks again guys. This link to video is with everything disconnected except main power cable to starter. Engine turns over fine by hand. https://photos.app.goo.gl/wGpSDp2LmStMFH2g8

It really sounds like one of your battery cables has too much resistance in it. As you draw a heavy load it opens up and can't deliver the current needed to turn over the starter. Do you have one of the resistance load used for testing batteries? they sell them at harbor freight for $19.95. This is around 80-100 amp load that you can use to see where it is losing the current.
I would first test it at the connectors on the battery and see if it tests ok,
Then move the negative lead to the chassis, if that fails, you know it is in that cable. if not,
move the positive clamp to the disconnect switch input and negative to the chassis. if that fails,
you know it is the positive cable to the switch.
Then move the positive clamp to the output of the disconnect. If that fails, it is your disconnect switch.
then move to the other end of the heavy cable coming off of the disconnect switch (probably the input
to the solenoid to the starter). Negative to the chassis. If it fails, you know it is the cable.
If not move on by leaving the positive there and move the negative to the engine.
If that fails, it is your negative cable from the chassis to the engine.
If you have full voltage and current at that point I can give you more trouble shooting from there.
Feel free to PM me, I would be glad to work with you, we can email or talk back and forth.
https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive/diagnostic-testing-scanning/100-amp-612v-battery-load-tester-61747.html

Railroad

03-25-2020, 08:20 AM

You can jump past your battery cables with a set of jumper cables. Do not even have to remove cables on car, easy peasy.

Dagwoods

03-25-2020, 05:28 PM

Old timer. I will take you up on that offer. I got the battery load tester (harbor freight is an essential business in Dallas, so still open). It doesn't look like I'm losing any significant current when hooked up to battery (just main power wire to starter and ground). It drops just into the weak section, 10.8v when I jumper the starter. Would still think that would turn it over at least. I'll pm you

Old Timer

03-25-2020, 05:47 PM

Dagwoods

03-25-2020, 07:14 PM

This is better...https://photos.app.goo.gl/rXsLpwvqrTCF38ST6

I just wish someone would have told me to check the ground...

Although I had the battery chassis ground off and had wiggled it, and reground the contact point, it wasn't until I used old timers advice and found that wires current dropped to zero...most of the time...took wire completely out and gently pulled on connector. It was only being held on by the heat shrink. The soldered connection was no good.

Thanks again for all the help. It may sound like i should have found it earlier (probably should have), but the inconsistent results really threw me off.

Papa

03-25-2020, 07:44 PM

Has to feel good to find the issue!

BTW - I live not far from Delbert Rd. and had the roadster on it for a short drive today.

Old Timer

03-25-2020, 08:04 PM