Old School Power Train

[CTHiker52]

I am considering building a Coupe as close as reasonable to what it would have been in ‘64-‘65. To that end has any one used a small block 289 mated to a Borg Warner T10 transmission? Are there any fitment issues wither the T10? THANKS

[i.e.427]

"Close as reasonable" in looks? 289 and 302 are nearly identical look wise and I certainly wouldn't build any pushrod V8 without a roller cam and valvetrain. 302 roller engines are still available from wrecking yards and engine builders. 289 engines, not so much. Again if building for "looks", a 4 speed shifter knob can be purchase to screw onto the handle of any of the modern 5 speeds. I had a customer a few years ago that insisted on a high revving Boss 302 clone (302 Clevor) engine and a T10 4 speed trans. The car is so miserable to drive on the highway the poor guy never drives it to anything other than a Cars & Coffee get together. If it were me, and it's not, I would go for a 302 roller engine and a T5 or TKO500 trans. Make it resemble a vintage 289 with stack injection or carbs and a v-belt drive for the engine front.

You do realize the new modern 65 Coupe offered by F5R no longer sports 4" round tubes for the chassis right?

[ricobrafan]

I agree with 427. I purchased my kit at the time when the Gen III was being talked about and I had the option. I choose the Gen II because of the more period correct chassis and then put a SMF 363 push rod motor. I could not be any happier. If I have waited for the Gen III I would have used the coyote. Just my two cents. Enjoy!

[David Williamson]

my Gen 3 Coupe is sort of old school, 363 Dart with Fitech injection so it looks like a carb Ford small block. I will drive it 99.9% on the street so I have power steering and AC with a serpentine belt. Also TKO-600 and IRS for a degree of comfort. In these cars with the hood open the view of the engine is from the top and side.
David W

[CTHiker52]

Tank you all for you responses and insights. I wasn't clear enough in my initial post. I want the car to be a driver not a garage queen. With that in mind I would like it to as close to what you would have seen in 1964-65. I am fully aware the Type FF5 65 Coupe is a little larger than the original (good thing I'm 6' 4'' 250) and utilizes a space-frame chassis. So I guess what I'm saying is I would like the exterior and interior should be what would have been in 1964-65.

i.e., 427 THANKS for your specific insight into the drivability of the 289/302 with the T10. I am curious what axel ratio the customer you spoke of was using. I certainly realize these cars are loud and with a transmission W/O overdrive like the T10 with a numerically high rear axel ratio (3.55 or 3.73) cruising at highway speeds (3000-4000 rpm, I noodled around with the Tremec gear ratio calculator) the car could be uncomfortably loud. For overall drivability you have convinced me the better choice is the T-5.

ricobrafan, I am curious if you are happy with the SBF 363 in the Gen II why if you had a Gen III would you go with the Coyote?

THANKS again for taking the time to share you thoughts.

Gary

[GoDadGo]

Gary,

If you want an engine Goes Like Hell, looks like a Ford, saves engine bay space, that can easily be disguised then consider an LS-3 with front a drive distributor.

https://paceperformance.com/LS3-533-HP-Pace-Performance-Crate-Engine-Carbureted-with-HEI-As-Cast-Valve-Covers-GMP-19370413-CHX.html

Put it in front of a 6-Speed gear box and you'll be cruising at speeds you've only dreamed of.

Steve

PS: You'll Need Some Generic Valve Covers To Pull It Off!

[CTHiker52]

Steve, THANKS for the message from the dark side. LOL. Being a Corvette guy the thought had entered my mind however not really authentic.

Gary

[2FAST4U]

This is as original looking as you can get using modern components.

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/24/bb/lBpxGPDK_t.jpeg (http://imgbox.com/lBpxGPDK)

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/8d/2b/YRe1fQFX_t.jpeg (http://imgbox.com/YRe1fQFX)

[2FAST4U]

Some more without the body
https://thumbs3.imgbox.com/c5/c4/stjJPs8F_t.JPG (http://imgbox.com/stjJPs8F)

[2FAST4U]

And this is the finished look.
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/ff/32/MkaBTbiW_t.jpeg (http://imgbox.com/MkaBTbiW)

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/66/c1/duGnpYZf_t.jpeg (http://imgbox.com/duGnpYZf)

[CTHiker52]

2FAST4U, great pictures. Just what I pictured in my mind. The turkey pan turned out beautifully. I am curious as to how well the car drives on the street with the Webber’s. The originals were designed to generally be run flat out most of the time. I would be interested in the engine build details i. e., cam used pistons rockers etc. as well as the everyday drivability e.g., engine RPM at 70 MPH in top gear. If, of course, you are willing to share that info.

THANKS

CTHiker352
Gary

[Cobradavid]

"Close as reasonable" in looks? 289 and 302 are nearly identical look wise and I certainly wouldn't build any pushrod V8 without a roller cam and valvetrain. 302 roller engines are still available from wrecking yards and engine builders. 289 engines, not so much. Again if building for "looks", a 4 speed shifter knob can be purchase to screw onto the handle of any of the modern 5 speeds. ...

It definitely can be done! We did it for my daughter's 1966 Ranchero.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=86157&d=1527037228

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=86158&d=1527037244

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=86159&d=1527037255


We started with a 302 roller long block (mid-90's Bronco, trucks, and vans) and built it up to look like a 1966 289. The FiTech throttle body fuel injection looks like a 4bbl carb. T-5 gives it a 5-speed box for driveability.

Depending on how authentic you want it to look, you may end up with a mix of years for part fitment, especially on the front end. For example, do you want the water pump radiator hose on the driver side or passenger side? That changes the timing cover and water pump you need. Front sump oil pan or rear sump also affects the timing cover (dipstick hole in the timing cover or in the block). Which timing cover you use will affect where the timing pointer is (driver side or passenger side - whichever side the radiator hose isn't), which affects where your timing marks on the harmonic balancer need to be (ask me how I know!).

It will take some research to get all the correct year parts for what you want it to look like, but it's definitely worth it if you want a more "modern" drivetrain (roller block, fuel injection, 5 speed tranny) that looks at home in a 1960's car.

Books that will be gold mines for your research: Ford Small Block Engine Parts Interchange, and How To Rebuild The Small Block Ford.

David

[2FAST4U]

2FAST4U, great pictures. Just what I pictured in my mind. The turkey pan turned out beautifully. I am curious as to how well the car drives on the street with the Webber’s. The originals were designed to generally be run flat out most of the time. I would be interested in the engine build details i. e., cam used pistons rockers etc. as well as the everyday drivability e.g., engine RPM at 70 MPH in top gear. If, of course, you are willing to share that info.

THANKS

CTHiker352
Gary

These have been modified for low speed drivability

[chargerbill]

I'll throw in my two cents.

I just re-built a 5.9 Magnum for a 2003 Dodge Dakota R/T.
New heads (CNC machined), valve train, intake, pistons, connecting rods, crank, etc.
The finished price for a daily driver 440HP and 440ft/lbs is well over $10,000.00.
Not saying that you would go all in like that (I typically wouldn't).

Ford crate engines are a great deal for a new factory warrantied engine.
Same if not more power with better drivability and fuel economy.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-A50NAA
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-M50C

I'm not a fan of direct injection and actually prefer the Gen 2 M-6007-A50NAA (if it's available).

Gen 2 M-6007-A50NAA
Ford Performance has taken the Mustang GT 5.0L Coyote engine and created another in its series of "Aluminator" crate engines built to deliver higher performance. The 5.0 Aluminator NA is built with connecting rods and pistons designed specifically for high performance applications. Mahle® 11.0:1 compression ratio forged pistons are hard anodized and feature Grafal® low friction coating. The connecting rods are premium Manley ® H-beam with ARP® 2000 bolts and fitted with BOSS 302 high performance bearings. The 5.0L Aluminator NA is a direct bolt in for 2015-2017 Mustang GT. It can be used in street rod or resto-mod builds using the Ford Performance 5.0L engine controls pack - M-6017-504V.

Used in Kurt Busch's 1972 Pantera featured on Fast N' Loud episode "The Race: Busch vs. Logano"
◾ Fits 2015-2017 Mustang GT

◾ 5.0L (302 cubic inches)

◾ 11.0:1 compression ratio (nominal)

◾ Mahle® Hard Anodized forged pistons with Grafal® low friction coating

◾ Manley® H-beam connecting rods with ARP® 2000 bolts

◾ BOSS 302 connecting rod bearings

◾ Forged steel crankshaft

◾ Uses production 2017 Mustang GT aluminum block

◾ Large rear sump oil pan with 8 quart capacity features optimized oil drainback and windage tray to control oil and improve high-rpm performance

◾ Tuned composite Mustang GT intake manifold with production drive by wire 80 mm throttle body variable runner control

◾ Four-valve-per-cylinder aluminum heads with roller-finger followers reduce friction.

◾ Boss 302 Valve Springs, M-6513-M50BR

◾ Mustang GT production camshafts

◾ Intake: 13mm lift 260 degrees duration
◾ Exhaust: 13mm lift 263 degrees duration
◾ Includes Ford Performance engine cover kit M-9680-M50A (not pictured)
◾ Includes Ford Performance colder, heat range zero (0) spark plugs, M-12405-M50

◾ Includes Ford Performance oil filter - M-6731-FL820

◾ Includes billet steel gerotor oil pump M-6600-50CJ

◾ Vehicle harness and PCM not included. Use Ford Performance wiring, PCM and installation kit M-6017-504V designed for manual transmission street rod/project car installation. Can also be equipped with automatic engine harness and then used in conjunction with automatic transmission controls pack - see M-6017-M50A for more information.
◾Engine does not include engine harness or flywheel/flex plate - see M-12000-M50 or M-12000-M50A
◾ Does not include alternator, for alternator kit see M-8600-M50BALT or M-8600-M50ALTA

◾ Engine mount bosses and bell housing mount pattern common to 4.6L modular engines
◾Does not include exhaust manifolds
◾Note: In order for low oil sensor to function in 2015-2016 Mustang, re-use existing oil pan or replace with BR3Z-6675-A pan, available at any Ford dealer
◾ Coyote Crate Engine Technical Reference Guide

◾See an Aluminator Engine build-up here

[CTHiker52]

These have been modified for low speed drivability

Thanks David for the response.

Gary

[CTHiker52]

chargerbill, thanks for taking the time to provide the details.

CTHiker52.
Gary