View Full Version : Car runs with the key off and removed from Ignition
Sdonnel
03-03-2020, 12:56 PM
Here is an interesting scenario that has not occurred previously. Started the car Saturday after having to jump the battery. Car started right up (Fitech) and came up to temp. After 15 minutes of idling and me romping the pedal now and then, I decided the garage smelled bad enough. I rotated the key to the off position and the engine continued to run (not dieseling). Thinking I hadn't rotated it far enough, I applied pressure and the key came out with no issues. I ultimately pulled the coil wire to kill the engine. About an hour later I had to try it again, as there is NO way this could happen twice. Same result. My initial suspicion is the ignition switch (not sure why), as the car started, ran, and shutdown as designed last fall. I have three grounds to the engine and chassis if that helps. Car is supposed to go to paint soon and I want to have this solved for the painter so he's not pulling the coil wire to shut it down.
I appreciate any advice and suggestions all of you may be able to offer.
Scott
Two clues...
1. Your battery was dead
2. Car continued to run with key off
You state that it worked as intended at some point, so what changed? What wiring have you done since then? What are you feeding your coil with? Should be switched power, not constant. It is possible that the ignition switch is bad. Remove and test it for continuity in all key positions for ACC, On, Off, Start. Also, your FiTech should be using switched power and should have shut down when the key was turned to the off position. Either the switch is bad, or you're feeding constant power into the fuse panel from something.
Dave
Sdonnel
03-03-2020, 01:53 PM
Dave,
Last fall I pulled the powertrain to replace the pilot bearing in the flywheel. Everything went back together and I drove it a few times with no issues. The reason I'm leaning toward the ignition switch is that I have done no wiring work on the car other than reconnecting the various connections in the engine bay. When the motor did not shut off, the fuel pump was still running. Only when I pulled the coil wire, did the pump shut off after the engine stopped.
Dave,
Last fall I pulled the powertrain to replace the pilot bearing in the flywheel. Everything went back together and I drove it a few times with no issues. The reason I'm leaning toward the ignition switch is that I have done no wiring work on the car other than reconnecting the various connections in the engine bay. When the motor did not shut off, the fuel pump was still running. Only when I pulled the coil wire, did the pump shut off after the engine stopped.
I'd definitely test the switch first.
Look for the simple stuff first like a bad switch or power generators wired on wrong side of switch. Power generators: alternator and electric fans (fans should be wired wired through a relay to prevent power feedback).
Ducky2009
03-03-2020, 03:36 PM
After pulling the coil wire to kill the engine, test to see if the coil still has a hot wire feeding it. Pulling the coil wire (killing the engine) shouldn't turn off the power supply (that shouldn't be there) to the coil. You should be able to trace it back to what's feeding it, ignition still hot after it's turned off, or some other feedback from another circuit.
After pulling the coil wire to kill the engine, test to see if the coil still has a hot wire feeding it. Pulling the coil wire (killing the engine) shouldn't turn off the power supply (that shouldn't be there) to the coil. You should be able to trace it back to what's feeding it, ignition still hot after it's turned off, or some other feedback from another circuit.
This will work if the power source is the battery. However, if the power source is from the alternator or a radiator fan, the power will quickly stop (alternator) or slowly spool down (fan). So better be quick on the voltage test.
boat737
03-04-2020, 10:02 AM
Over the years, I've read here of more than a few people running into the problem of the radiator fan back feeding the electrical system. That would be a good place to look.
Sdonnel
03-04-2020, 12:37 PM
Guys,
Thank You for the feedback. When I get back in town, I plan to pull the ignition switch and check that first. If that checks out, I will move down the line. As for the fans, I have them on a switch with no thermostatic control. My speedhut gauges have a low and high set point with a blazingly red LED to tell me when I've reached one of the limits. When this issue occurred, the fans were off both times. I'll let you know what I find. Thanks Again.
Scott
Avalanche325
03-04-2020, 01:54 PM
Unplug the fan then see if the problem goes away.
I just saw your last reply - never mind. Why would you not want thermostatically controlled fans?
Likely the switch.
i.e.427
03-05-2020, 12:28 AM
We've gotten a bit tired of the issues that sometimes come with the F5R ignition switch. We've since been using this switch with good luck. The price isn't bad either.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-31-180P-Pollak-Ignition-Switch-for-Universal-/362853552281
edwardb
03-05-2020, 06:34 AM
Hey Scott. Since nothing else changed, sure sounds like the ignition switch failed to me. But we'll see after you troubleshoot it some more. I have a NIB ignition switch from my Coupe build if you need one. Didn't use it because of the keyless pushbutton start. Good luck.
I too fell victim to a failed FFR ignition switch a few years back.
Olli
Sdonnel
03-05-2020, 07:39 AM
I'm hoping it's that easy. Paul, if it IS that easy, you'll be seeing Zach and I when we come to buy your spare from you. Maybe we can get a look at the Coupe while we're at it??????? I promise not to touch it.
Scott
edwardb
03-05-2020, 08:19 AM
I'm hoping it's that easy. Paul, if it IS that easy, you'll be seeing Zach and I when we come to buy your spare from you. Maybe we can get a look at the Coupe while we're at it??????? I promise not to touch it.
Scott
Of course you're welcome to visit. If you don't touch. ;) Seriously, would be great to see you and Zach. Any time.
Mark Reynolds
03-06-2020, 10:41 PM
My FFR switch does that too!
Sdonnel
03-09-2020, 07:23 PM
Just got the switch out after a working weekend. Turns out there's power to the accessory terminal when the key is off and/or out of the ignition. SO, knowing that, I'll be taking Edwardb up on his offer. Thanks to all for the advice on what to check. I'm no electrician, so I'm glad this was a straightforward fix.
Scott
michael everson
03-10-2020, 05:51 AM
Scott. You should take that bad switch apart so we can all see whats going on with them. For the record I have never had one fail.
Mike
Sdonnel
03-10-2020, 11:36 AM
Michael,
I will certainly do that. I'll be sure to document with plenty of pics as well. Great idea.
Scott
Sdonnel
03-11-2020, 05:36 PM
Based on Michael's request, I cut the old ignition switch open after work today. While I didn't find anything burnt, or missing, I did find some items that if working together, may cause the issue. I used a dremel and cut the large end of the switch (Pic 1). When I popped the pieces out, they looked pretty straight forward. By rotating the key, the copper plate makes contact with certain terminals when rotated to different positions. Looking closer at the parts, I noticed that one of the three springs that pushes the copper plate against the contacts, was slightly shorter than the other (Pic 2). The pic doesn't show the difference in height but gives an idea of just how small they are. In pic 3, the mating contacts are shown on bottom of the terminal end. The one that caused the issue (ACC) is slightly lower on one end of the surface than the other. My suspicion is that the short spring and the uneven contact surface may have contributed to the issue. It's a pretty basic switch and I plan to keep a spare in the car for future insurance.123957123958123959
Sdonnel
03-17-2020, 08:41 AM
Good news Gents. The switch I acquired from Edwardb did the trick. Connected it last night and all is good. On top of getting the needed part, my wife and I were able to see the new Coupe alongside the Cobra in the garage. What a choice to be forced to make. I'm sure Paul will have a lot of miles on both by the end of the year.
Special thanks to Paul and his wife for letting us stop by. They are the kind of people we all aspire to be.
Scott
edwardb
03-17-2020, 11:52 AM
Good news Gents. The switch I acquired from Edwardb did the trick. Connected it last night and all is good. On top of getting the needed part, my wife and I were able to see the new Coupe alongside the Cobra in the garage. What a choice to be forced to make. I'm sure Paul will have a lot of miles on both by the end of the year.
Special thanks to Paul and his wife for letting us stop by. They are the kind of people we all aspire to be.
Scott
Good news Scott. Everything pointed to that being the problem. Glad it worked out. And you're certainly welcome. You're comments are very generous. Great to see you and (finally...) meet Kelly. Hopefully things get back to normal in the not too distant future and we can all start enjoying our rides and our upcoming events.