Sway Bars? (NEWBIE)

[jiriza84641]

Hello all, after ordering my kit, I figured I may save a few $$ by ordering a set of sway bars for a 2015 Mustang?? just need to know what parts I will need.

help is appreciated!!

[Jeff Kleiner]

They won't work.

Jeff

[Logan]

While your intentions are wise (shopping around for best prices is good practice), this is one of the areas you cannot use Mustang parts on the FFR. MK4 Roadster and Daytona Coupe both use the same swaybars which are available from FFR directly with brackets included for around $240 each. The Mustang bars won’t work for many reasons: the way they’re bent, the overall width, and the rates/stiffness to name a few.

Simply put, the FFR bars are the most common option. I once heard that they’re Miata bars, but never could confirm that. The only other option I know of is Breeze Automotive and it’s about twice the cost per bar.

[canuck1]

Breeze's stuff is top notch and has a degree of adjustability that is hard to match. Mike Forte once sold a front bar kit that looked an awful lot like a Miata bar, but came with the hardware to make it fit an FFR (I bought one years ago). I don't think it ever made it on to his online parts page. You could ask him? VPM sells a complete front and rear solution ( I have their 3-link rear bar) that's proven to work on earlier FFR models and suspensions, but they may not have an option for the newer Mustang IRS.

Calling FFR seems like the simplest solution overall.

Sean

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Personally I would not buy the bars till I determined I needed them. Believe most of the cars do not use any.

[Aircontroller]

What’s the performance gain by having the sway bars?

[Jeff Kleiner]

What’s the performance gain by having the sway bars?

Increased roll stiffness without upping the spring rates.

Jeff

[CraigS]

Although I have always had bars I agree. I am an avid autocrosser so I need them. For a street only car I think they are much less important.

[SJDave]

I don't autocross, but do track it a few times a year with the NorCal Shelby Club. I run Toyo 888R tires so it hooks up pretty well on the track and street, but so far haven't added sway bars, with the stock FFR springs and IRS there is not excessive body roll even with the sticky tires. I have been thinking about adding a front sway bar so I can tune the handling with it. The car does have a tendency to oversteer at the limit right now, a front bar can tune this out. My buddies car is solid rear axle and he runs no sway bars either, but his car is very neutral also on the track, running Toyo 888Rs also. I'm in the RED car he shot this with his Go Pro...my batteries died unfortunately. Spin in Turn 1 was due to lack of skill and heavy right foot at the apex and slow reactions to catch it...at 70 yrs old got to be more careful!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV52ObFfWuU&list=FLdydJImO3N_Do3zHeMrW-YA

My tires are going on 6 years old and a bit on the heat cycled side, but I figured get one more track day out of them, but the fronts locked up pretty easy, need to readjust the Wilwood balance bar before next outing. Adding ABS and Power Steering are things to consider if you plan to track, on my to do list for next year. Along with a front sway bar.

[edwardb]

I'll let the performance guys who know way more about this than me (wouldn't be hard...) address whether they're needed or not. But a couple of comments regarding installation after installing them on two builds. For the front, Factory Five adds the chassis brackets to later Mk4 Roadster frames in all cases. So it's a pretty simple bolt on with only the lower shock mount removed and a longer one added to hold the rod end. For the rear, as best I know they only support the 2015+ IRS. Not aware they have a solution for a solid axle setup. When adding to an IRS rear, there are two brackets that must be added for the attachment to the chassis. If you're undecided during the build, you still may want to get those brackets and install them while putting the suspension together. They share bolts with other suspension components. While you can take stuff apart and add them later, would be way simpler to have them in place during the initial build. After that, becomes a simple bolt on like the front. And yes, both sets I've received were Miata bars.

[Logan]

Dave, nice vid. I was following you through the corners until I realized I was egging the driver of the camera car on because I was losing you! Lol

EdwardB - How do you know they are Miata bars? Maybe they were packaged/marked as such? If so, could you provide any other info such as bar rates per hole, part number, or Miata generation (below):

NA (1989-1997)
NB (1998-2005)
NC (2006-2014)
ND (2015-2020) (probably not this new)

[edwardb]

Dave, nice vid. I was following you through the corners until I realized I was egging the driver of the camera car on because I was losing you! Lol

EdwardB - How do you know they are Miata bars? Maybe they were packaged/marked as such? If so, could you provide any other info such as bar rates per hole, part number, or Miata generation (below):

NA (1989-1997)
NB (1998-2005)
NC (2006-2014)
ND (2015-2020) (probably not this new)

Packaging is long gone. But boxes said Flyin' Miata. Kind of a big clue. :p Sorry I don't have any more info on them.

[SJDave]

Dave, nice vid. I was following you through the corners until I realized I was egging the driver of the camera car on because I was losing you! Lol

EdwardB - How do you know they are Miata bars? Maybe they were packaged/marked as such? If so, could you provide any other info such as bar rates per hole, part number, or Miata generation (below):

NA (1989-1997)
NB (1998-2005)
NC (2006-2014)
ND (2015-2020) (probably not this new)

lol...I do the same thing watching it!!! He blew sound limit on the previous session so had to back off the throttle passing the MIC on the straightway ...you can hear him get back on it after passing the MIC, so it made it tough for him to stay with me. I'm also about 75HP up on him with IRS instead of solid 3 link rear. He did have some new front tires though, but still locked up a couple times. He raced circle dirt track for 7 years which causes him to early APEX a bit, when I watch the video I keep saying "wait, wait, wait...now turn in". So he can't really use the power coming out of the corners, but still I was pulling him on all the straights several car lengths due to HP difference...makes it tough to stay up.

[Avalanche325]

For a street car, you are probably fine without them.
I am also an avid autocrosser and do some track days. I ran a season without them, and thought I didn't have much body roll until I saw some pictures. I was surprised at how much the car was leaning. They definitely take your track performance up a notch. They also provide some adjustability.

It is a good idea to do some reading or watch a youtube video on how they work. They sort of de-independent your independent suspension, which sounds terrible. But when you get a good concept of how they keep the car flat, it makes sense.

I am running VPM bars with a 3-link.

[canuck1]

Thanks for updating me EdwardB, It's great that FFR has made it easier for many to add anti-sway bars! My car is a MK III chassis and short of VPM, there were few bolt-on solutions for both front and rear at the time. I tried going without them, but the spring rates I started with gave me the sensation of too much roll and a strong tendency to understeer (even on the street). It just didn't feel as tight or nimble as a performance car should and adding both bars improved it. I now have the ability to adjust to make the back end quite loose if I want (fun, when you expect it and quite controllable). I know I probably could have saved some money and time by simply upping my spring rates, but firm is a subjective measure and the bars help minimize body roll without sacrificing the ride comfort provided by slightly softer springs.

Sean

[jiriza84641]

They won't work.

Jeff
Thanks Jeff from Al Pacino

[jiriza84641]

Everyone, thanks for the insight and expertise!

[phileas_fogg]

Dave, nice vid. I was following you through the corners until I realized I was egging the driver of the camera car on because I was losing you! Lol

EdwardB - How do you know they are Miata bars? Maybe they were packaged/marked as such? If so, could you provide any other info such as bar rates per hole, part number, or Miata generation (below):

NA (1989-1997)
NB (1998-2005)
NC (2006-2014)
ND (2015-2020) (probably not this new)

Long ago, and probably following someone's 20th anniversary build thread, I copied down the following link: LINK REMOVED 'cuz it was incorrect.

So I'm pretty sure they're NA6s.


John

EDIT: Incorrect link removed; use the link in Logan's post (#25 above) instead. Thanks Logan!

[GTBradley]

I'll let the performance guys who know way more about this than me (wouldn't be hard...) address whether they're needed or not. But a couple of comments regarding installation after installing them on two builds. For the front, Factory Five adds the chassis brackets to later Mk4 Roadster frames in all cases. So it's a pretty simple bolt on with only the lower shock mount removed and a longer one added to hold the rod end. For the rear, as best I know they only support the 2015+ IRS. Not aware they have a solution for a solid axle setup. When adding to an IRS rear, there are two brackets that must be added for the attachment to the chassis. If you're undecided during the build, you still may want to get those brackets and install them while putting the suspension together. They share bolts with other suspension components. While you can take stuff apart and add them later, would be way simpler to have them in place during the initial build. After that, becomes a simple bolt on like the front. And yes, both sets I've received were Miata bars.
Paul caught me at just the right time on my build, I added the brackets, put off the anti-sway bars and bought power steering instead. One thing to add to your advice, Paul, is treat the brackets with Por15 or powder coat, etc. I forgot to (should have known better) and now there is some surface rust on them. For street use, this car is perfect without anti-roll bars and lighter.

[edwardb]

Paul caught me at just the right time on my build, I added the brackets, put off the anti-sway bars and bought power steering instead. One thing to add to your advice, Paul, is treat the brackets with Por15 or powder coat, etc. I forgot to (should have known better) and now there is some surface rust on them. For street use, this car is perfect without anti-roll bars and lighter.

Good point. They are bare steel. I had mine powder coated along with a bunch of other parts at the time. These are the brackets being discussed. Again, only for 2015+ IRS setups. As you can see, held in place by the LCA and tow arm bolts.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Independent%20Rear%20Suspension/.highres/IMG_0150_zpslldjumio.jpg (https://app.photobucket.com/u/edwardb123/p/51ed9f87-f48c-406c-bcb4-212e6f67ce1d)

[GTBradley]

Long ago, and probably following someone's 20th anniversary build thread, I copied down the following link: https://www.flyinmiata.com/1990-93-flyin-miata-sway-bars.html

So I'm pretty sure they're NA6s.


John
Hold the phone! Is that for both bars? That would be less than half the price of the FFR option...Honey, can have the checkbook just one more time?

[GTBradley]

I think what I’ll do there, Paul is just brush Por15 on them in place. I know that’ll make the bolts a little difficult to remove later, but I may never need to do that anyway. Thanks for the earlier advice.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Hold the phone! Is that for both bars? That would be less than half the price of the FFR option...Honey, can have the checkbook just one more time?

You better keep holding the phone 'cause you aren't done yet---that isn't going to get you the rod end links, mounting brackets or installation hardware.

Jeff

[stack]

You better keep holding the phone 'cause you aren't done yet---that isn't going to get you the rod end links, mounting brackets or installation hardware.

Jeff

Also while F5 might use the Miata bar. The use the same bar front and rear. Not a set of Miata bars. You would need 2 fronts or 2 rears now sure which

stack

[Logan]

The link above is close....but here is the link to the actual bar FFR offers:

https://www.flyinmiata.com/rear-fm-sway-bar-na-nb.html

It is a rear swaybar intended for NA/NB applications (interchangeable on those two generations of Miata). FFR uses the same bar for both front AND rear. As Jeff mentioned, you can buy the bars cheaper from Flyin’ Miata directly...but you don’t get the mounting brackets, end links, or hardware going that way. Since the rear brackets for the IRS are a FFR-only laser cut and welded bracket, you have to buy them from FFR or fabricate your own.

Specs on the bar itself:
Solid (not hollow)
5/8” (0.625”) diameter
Manufactured by Hellwig
Coined ends with 3 holes

I’m currently looking into the bar rates for each hole... They can be calculated and studied for setup changes the same way spring rates can be.

[TMartinLVNV]

I purchased the front sway bar kit with my car. It is currently installed using the middle hole of the three. Am I going to have steering problems with only the front on? Should I get the VPM for the rear just to balance it out? My car is going to be near 100% street driven.

[Matt Ries]

I looked at VPM web site, looks like it was geared to the MKIII cars. Are they still making the sway bars? while pricey they look well done.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I purchased the front sway bar kit with my car. It is currently installed using the middle hole of the three. Am I going to have steering problems with only the front on? Should I get the VPM for the rear just to balance it out? My car is going to be near 100% street driven.

The FFR spring rates create a moderate understeer. Adding only a front bar will exacerbate that and result in a pretty heavy push.

Jeff

[walt mckenna]

I purchased the front sway bar kit with my car. It is currently installed using the middle holei of the three. Am I going to have steering problems with only the front on? Should I get the VPM for the rear just to balance it out? My car is going to be near 100% street driven.

I installed a Forte 7/8 front bar before the VPN rear and experienced no problems with normal daily driving. I would not spend the money for a VPN rear, for normal daily driving, because I believe you will see no difference in road performance. Now if you plan to track the car, the VPN will give you almost infinite adjustability that will allow you to achieve whatever loose/tight balance you prefer.

[canuck1]

I installed a Forte 7/8 front bar before the VPN rear and experienced no problems with normal daily driving. I would not spend the money for a VPN rear, for normal daily driving, because I believe you will see no difference in road performance. Now if you plan to track the car, the VPN will give you almost infinite adjustability that will allow you to achieve whatever loose/tight balance you prefer.

Your experience is the only one that truly matters to you Walt, but I'm going to have to disagree with it from MY perspective.

I don't track my car but I do like to enjoy how it feels to drive it on long, twisty sections of road where I can. I never ran the front bar alone (I have Forte's 7/8" front bar as well) but I know I did find the need to adjust my VPM rear bar. More tension to loosen the back end a little, countered a neutral to under-steer state. Having both bars on immediately reduced the noticeable body roll I'd experienced before but the car still felt a little truck like rather than nimble when it came to turning in (neutral) and exiting apex (under-steer). since my front bar isn't adjustable, I had to rely on cranking a little more tension in the rear to find the sweet spot for my tastes.

You're right, you probably don't need a rear bar (or either bar really) but if you are looking at adding any anti-sway bar, I'd say having some adjustment can make the driving experience fit what you think it should be. My car tended to push a little (under-steer) before adding bars, so adding a front bar only wouldn't have made sense to me. Your mileage may vary. ;)

Sean

[TMartinLVNV]

I do prefer a really flat cornering car even though I won't be auto crossing it. I'm going to order the VPM rear bar. Thanks guys.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Your experience is the only one that truly matters to you Walt, but I'm going to have to disagree with it from MY perspective.

I don't track my car but I do like to enjoy how it feels to drive it on long, twisty sections of road where I can. I never ran the front bar alone (I have Forte's 7/8" front bar as well) but I know I did find the need to adjust my VPM rear bar. More tension to loosen the back end a little, countered a neutral to under-steer state. Having both bars on immediately reduced the noticeable body roll I'd experienced before but the car still felt a little truck like rather than nimble when it came to turning in (neutral) and exiting apex (under-steer). since my front bar isn't adjustable, I had to rely on cranking a little more tension in the rear to find the sweet spot for my tastes.

You're right, you probably don't need a rear bar (or either bar really) but if you are looking at adding any anti-sway bar, I'd say having some adjustment can make the driving experience fit what you think it should be. My car tended to push a little (under-steer) before adding bars, so adding a front bar only wouldn't have made sense to me. Your mileage may vary. ;)

Sean

Just what I said in post #28---thanks for making my argument Sean! :)

Jeff

[Logan]

I called FM and asked for more swaybar specs for the bar they sell for/to/through Factory Five Racing. I put the conversational info into a spec format below:

Flyin Miata/FFR swaybar:
FM part number: M13-36520
Fitment: Rear Only - 1999-2005 Miata (NA/NB)
Solid cross section (not hollow)
Material: 4140 CrMo (Chromoly steel, one of the best alloys available)
Hot die forged process (more uniform rates, stronger, and more durable than cold forged)
5/8” (0.625”) diameter
Manufactured by Hellwig
Coined ends with 3 holes

I am going to have to calculate the rates of each hole using material properties and dimensions, since neither Hellwig or FM knows them. Well, someone at Hellwig knows but I haven’t been able to reach them for comment lol. So can someone take a couple measurements of one of these bars? Center of each hole to the straight lateral section, and width of bar at the base as well as the tip of the legs. Let me know if you measure to the center or one of the faces of that straight section for the hole distances.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Instead of all that measurin' and calculatin' how about just using the seat of your pants ;)

Jeff

[Logan]

Because I don’t have car to drive yet....lol. Building my Coupe now, and you’d be surprised how far you can get by selecting spring rates and swaybar rates, combined with known things like wheelbase to get ride frequencies and other useful data.

Similar to calculating gearing of a transmission, rear end, and engine RPM to put together a good combo on paper before ever ordering a single part. I have spreadsheets of data for all sorts of things, so I guess I’m just a big nerd.. :)

[Avalanche325]

I looked at VPM web site, looks like it was geared to the MKIII cars. Are they still making the sway bars? while pricey they look well done.

I have them on a MKIV. They make (or at least made) several different versions.

[Avalanche325]

Instead of all that measurin' and calculatin' how about just using the seat of your pants ;)

Jeff

It depends on if you have a calibrated pair of pants.

[walt mckenna]

It depends on if you have a calibrated pair of pants.

Reminds me of a comment a NASA classroom instructor made one day when talking about seat-of-the-pants feel. He said, professional drivers have a nerve running from the seat of their pants to their brain that's the size of a fire hose; yours is the size of a thread. Listening to your instructor and logging seat time is the only way to grow your nerve. You do not need more turbos, fatter tires, or thicker sway bars because at this point whatever you are driving is more capable than you. Now get out there and do something stupid so that we can talk about it next session.

[Avalanche325]

I primed and Rustolium-ed mine. The front is not holding up well as it basically lives in a slow sand blaster at the front of the car. About 15k miles since installing.

How are you guys with powder coat holding up?