Hood Alignment Woes

[TMartinLVNV]

I've been working on my trunk and hood installation. The trunk was not too big of a deal.
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/DSC03730.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/DSC03730.jpg.html)
The hood however, has been a total PITA. It needs to come back another 1/2" but I am already maxed out with rearward adjustment with the brackets.
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/DSC03725.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/DSC03725.jpg.html)
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/DSC03726.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/DSC03726.jpg.html)
This is my first time doing any type of body fitment, but the shell seems to be situated correctly front to back. The rear wall is perfect and there is just a small gap above the dash. The picture does not show it well, but the gap is uniform across the entire dash.
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/DSC03728.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/DSC03728.jpg.html)
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/DSC03729.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/DSC03729.jpg.html)

I need some help with what to try next. I've sanded down the trunk and hood so that they fit nicely in their respective openings until paint. What can I do to get the hood to move back a smidge?

[videodude]

Terry,

I hate to say this, but why don't you just let Miller (da Bat) take care of fitting the hood and the hinges. He'll get it right; he's done it a ton of times. Seems like a simpler route to me.

Allan

[TMartinLVNV]

Terry,

I hate to say this, but why don't you just let Miller (da Bat) take care of fitting the hood and the hinges. He'll get it right; he's done it a ton of times. Seems like a simpler route to me.

Allan

Jeff is probably going to be getting my car this fall. Until then, I want to get it more acceptable than it is now.

[Papa]

Terry,

Did that hood come short or did you remove material? Mine was oversized when it arrived and wouldn't even lay in the opening until it was trimmed. What does it look like on the front?

[TMartinLVNV]

Terry,

Did that hood come short or did you remove material? Mine was oversized when it arrived and wouldn't even lay in the opening until it was trimmed. What does it look like on the front?

The hood was oversized all the way around and was not close to fitting in the opening. I sanded all sizes about evenly until the hood sat in the opening with 1/8" gap on all sides. After I bolted on the bracket and adjusted them about 10 times is where I am at now. I could not get to the hood to move backwards anymore. Here are a few more pictures.
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/20200118_194047.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/20200118_194047.jpg.html)
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/20200118_194123.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/20200118_194123.jpg.html)
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/20200118_194138.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/20200118_194138.jpg.html)
If I could just move the whole hood back 1/2" more rearward, it would seem to fit just right. I am wondering if the 4 holes for rivets predrilled by F5 are not in the correct location?

[Papa]

Hmmm. I don't recall trimming anything along the rear edge, but it's been a while now. I did have to take off 1/4 to 1/2 inch along the front and maybe an 1/8 along the sides, but it laid in perfectly. Once Jeff finished the fitting, there is a typical gap all around.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=87459&d=1529266211

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117649&d=1573948429

Is there enough material on the hinge brackets to lengthen the adjustment slots at all?

[Jeff Kleiner]

Sorry to have to say it Terry but I've had this happen when guys take too much material off the rear of the hood. The snowball is that once you get the hood far enough rearward in the opening the rib on the underside of the hood may hit the body flange inside the hood opening. By the looks of things in the photo that shows the dash to cowl relationship it appears that your body may be farther rearward than ideal. The simplest solution at this point is to move the hood brackets forward a smidge and see how it goes.

Note too others and what I tell all of my guys who want to do rough fitting before bringing them to me:
1. Only take the absolute minimum off of all the moving panels to get them to go into the hole and open & close.
2. Take material from the front of the hood first.
3. Take material from the front edge of the passenger door first.

Good luck!

Jeff

[Bjrhoa]

Sorry to have to say it Terry but I've had this happen when guys take too much material off the rear of the hood. The snowball is that once you get the hood far enough rearward in the opening the rib on the underside of the hood may hit the body flange inside the hood opening. By the looks of things in the photo that shows the dash to cowl relationship it appears that your body may be farther rearward than ideal. The simplest solution at this point is to move the hood brackets forward a smidge and see how it goes.

Note too others and what I tell all of my guys who want to do rough fitting before bringing them to me:
1. Only take the absolute minimum off of all the moving panels to get them to go into the hole and open & close.
2. Take material from the front of the hood first.
3. Take material from the front edge of the passenger door first.

Good luck!

Jeff

Stupid question... But could you define "front"? Is it opposite the hinges in all cases?

[michael everson]

I have run into this a couple times myself. You didn't really do anything wrong. Just accumulating tolerances. Remove the hinge bracket that is actually attached to the frame and drill new holes in it forward of the ones your using now. there is enough room to do it.
That should get you what you need.
Mike

[Papa]

Stupid question... But could you define "front"? Is it opposite the hinges in all cases?

Front is relative to the car. The front of the hood is at the front of the car.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Stupid question... But could you define "front"?

Front=The end of the car with headlights :)

Jeff

[rich grsc]

Looking at the dash to body clearance, I would move the body forward. Or I would drill out the rivets in the hood and reposition the bracket back a 1/2" or 3/4".

Jeff, that from the right side or the left.:p

[TMartinLVNV]

Sorry to have to say it Terry but I've had this happen when guys take too much material off the rear of the hood. The snowball is that once you get the hood far enough rearward in the opening the rib on the underside of the hood may hit the body flange inside the hood opening. By the looks of things in the photo that shows the dash to cowl relationship it appears that your body may be farther rearward than ideal. The simplest solution at this point is to move the hood brackets forward a smidge and see how it goes.

Note too others and what I tell all of my guys who want to do rough fitting before bringing them to me:
1. Only take the absolute minimum off of all the moving panels to get them to go into the hole and open & close.
2. Take material from the front of the hood first.
3. Take material from the front edge of the passenger door first.

Good luck!

Jeff

Jeff, if you have any opinions/suggestions, give it to me straight ;) No need to sugar coat anything. My goal is to get everything to fit together well enough to drive for a bit. I plan on taking my car to Miller in the fall or winter. I definitely don't want to cause him problems when it is time for him to work his magic. If I screwed something up enough that it can't be fixed, I'll buy another hood if need be.

Do you think I should try to move the body around a little bit or just leave it be until I can get it to Miller? When you say hood brackets, are to referring to the rectangular 90 degree bent pieces that are riveted to the actual hood? I was kinda thinking about slotting those holes to see if I can move it around. I don't have them in front of me so I don't know how much material I have to play with. It seems to me that it is better to modify the metal rather than drill new holes in the fiberglass. But, I'm the newbie here.

[TMartinLVNV]

I have run into this a couple times myself. You didn't really do anything wrong. Just accumulating tolerances. Remove the hinge bracket that is actually attached to the frame and drill new holes in it forward of the ones your using now. there is enough room to do it.
That should get you what you need.
Mike

Thanks Michael. This would be sweet if it works. Do the new holes go into the frame or into the bracket? You said to drill new holes forward. I need the hood to come back 1/2"?

[TMartinLVNV]

"Is there enough material on the hinge brackets to lengthen the adjustment slots at all?"

I don't know. In the bracket arms, I don't remember there being a lot of extra material. I'm headed back to work today and won't be able to resume work on the car until Thurs.

[CDXXVII]

Honestly, unless you plan to drive in gel coat I would “Stop!” and wait for your body/paint guy to get it right. You could just end up compounding the issue. I asked Jeff Miller if I could do anything with the body to make things easier for him. He with forceful conviction said “Do Nothing!”


"Is there enough material on the hinge brackets to lengthen the adjustment slots at all?"

I don't know. In the bracket arms, I don't remember there being a lot of extra material. I'm headed back to work today and won't be able to resume work on the car until Thurs.

[TMartinLVNV]

My bank account is healing from the big check I wrote to Forte for his beautiful masterpiece. I wonder if Miller was planning on a MLK day sale? Lol!

[brewha]

I had a something like your issue but not as severe. I elongated the slots in the hinge brackets by about 1/8 of an inch to allow it to slide back further and get a better fit.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Terry,
Show me a picture of the body in relation to the tab that the striker for the door latches bolt to and it will be easy to tell if the body needs to be moved forward (in case there is any confusion about the terminology that would be the direction of the headlights :p). If the body goes forward that will help the rear of the hood situation (rear=direction of the tail lights :p). When I mention relocating the brackets I'm talking about the "L" brackets that rivet to the hood. You can go forward (towards the headlights :p) with them about 1/4" before you run out of flat surface on the hood. To go farther you'll need to trim the front (headlight end :p) of the "L" brackets. DO NOT slot or redrill them, make new holes in the hood. There is a metal layer underneath the 'glass in the mounting pad area so as long as you're drilling into virgin material it'll be OK.

"Do nothing"...yeah, my advice too but despite warnings it sometimes doesn't happen that way! Miller and I talk frequently and it isn't unusual for the topic of conversation to be about what an owner has done to "help" :)

Cheers,
Jeff

[CDXXVII]

Terry,
Show me a picture of the body in relation to the tab that the striker for the door latches bolt to and it will be easy to tell if the body needs to be moved forward (in case there is any confusion about the terminology that would be the direction of the headlights :p). If the body goes forward that will help the rear of the hood situation (rear=direction of the tail lights :p). When I mention relocating the brackets I'm talking about the "L" brackets that rivet to the hood. You can go forward (towards the headlights :p) with them about 1/4" before you run out of flat surface on the hood. To go farther you'll need to trim the front (headlight end :p) of the "L" brackets. DO NOT slot or redrill them, make new holes in the hood. There is a metal layer underneath the 'glass in the mounting pad area so as long as you're drilling into virgin material it'll be OK.

"Do nothing"...yeah, my advice too but despite warnings it sometimes doesn't happen that way! Miller and I talk frequently and it isn't unusual for the topic of conversation to be about what an owner has done to "help" :)

Cheers,
Jeff

Pretty sure Jeff is talking about this location. Post pics. of both sides. This is not my photo. Pretty sure my body is just a bit more forward (to the front) than this photo but it should give you some indications.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120881&d=1579463434

[TMartinLVNV]

Here you go Jeff. I'm solid with front and back terminology. I get a little confused with port and starboard though :o Port has four letters, than means left. Starboard has more letters, and so does right is how I keep track of it.
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/DSC03736.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/DSC03736.jpg.html)
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/DSC03734.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/DSC03734.jpg.html)
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/DSC03735.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/DSC03735.jpg.html)

[TMartinLVNV]

https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/DSC03733.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/DSC03733.jpg.html)
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/DSC03732.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/DSC03732.jpg.html)
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/DSC03731.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/DSC03731.jpg.html)

[michael everson]

Thanks Michael. This would be sweet if it works. Do the new holes go into the frame or into the bracket? You said to drill new holes forward. I need the hood to come back 1/2"?

Remove the bracket that is bolted to the "G" bracket on the frame. redrill new holes forward of the ones that are there. This will move the hood back.
Do not attempt to slot the brackets on the hood. The rivets will not work in a slot. Looking at your pictures, it doesn't look like your could redrill the hood. Brackets are all the way forward.
Mike

[rich grsc]

Ok, looking at your body pictures, it needs to move forwards.

[Mark Eaton]

Terry,

I think this is the kind of photo Kleiner needs to see

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116474&d=1571711049

[Jeff Kleiner]

Terry,

I think this is the kind of photo Kleiner needs to see

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=116474&d=1571711049

EXACTLY!!!

Thanks Mark!

Terry, you need the door opening flange ahead of the tab by approximately 1/4" as shown in the photo. Most times the roll on the underside of the cowl has to be cut back so that it doesn't hit the dash which will keep the body from being able to be moved that far forward.

Jeff

[j.miller]

Move the brackets forward on the hood .5 in....da Bat

[boat737]

Disclaimer: I have no expertise in this.

Just an observation... If you move the brackets towards the front, the hinges rearward, and the body forward (all at the once) may be adding way too much correction of the hood alignment.

[TMartinLVNV]

Ack! What to do? I have Kleiner saying:

"Terry, you need the door opening flange ahead of the tab by approximately 1/4" as shown in the photo. Most times the roll on the underside of the cowl has to be cut back so that it doesn't hit the dash which will keep the body from being able to be moved that far forward.

Jeff"

Then Miller saying:

"Move the brackets forward on the hood .5 in....da Bat"

Are you two colluding behind the scenes to mess with my mind? :confused: :rolleyes: :p If so, you are probably enjoying the hell out of this.

Ok, this is my plan for this weekend. I'm going to try moving the body forward first. It doesn't require any modification and is completely reversible. If that does't work, then I'll look at the brackets and consider modifying it. I do not want to make it perfect. Just getting the hood to close flat is good enough for me. I only want to get the Roadster drive\able and presentable enough until the fall where the pros can get their hands on it.

Thanks everyone so much for your help. This community is what makes this project so much fun. I hope I can pay back others down the road like you guys have helped me.

I'll report back the results this weekend.

Terry

[Jeff Kleiner]

Ack! What to do? I have Kleiner saying:

"Terry, you need the door opening flange ahead of the tab by approximately 1/4" as shown in the photo. Most times the roll on the underside of the cowl has to be cut back so that it doesn't hit the dash which will keep the body from being able to be moved that far forward.

Jeff"

Then Miller saying:

"Move the brackets forward on the hood .5 in....da Bat"

Are you two colluding behind the scenes to mess with my mind?

We're giving you options. Some are easier than others. If you go back to post #19 you'll see that I said you could move the brackets forward also. Do one...do the other...do both...or do nothing and let the painter deal with it. Your choice.

Jeff

PS---If the body is too far out of position it can mess with ya' and eat up all of the adjustment on the doors and trunk too. Just sayin'...

[Big Blocker]

Terry,

Back in post #21 you mentioned your "formula" for Port = left (four letters, anything else must be Starboard) but can you tell me how to determine Stern = (NOT front, five letters) back of the boat ???

Just pullin' your chain a bit, good to see you have the "masters" working on your issue.

Doc

[rich grsc]

Terry,

Back in post #21 you mentioned your "formula" for Port = left (four letters, anything else must be Starboard) but can you tell me how to determine Stern = (NOT front, five letters) back of the boat ???

Just pullin' your chain a bit, good to see you have the "masters" working on your issue.

Doc
Stern----isn't that where the poopdeck is?:rolleyes:

[TMartinLVNV]

I'm just a pollywog. Not that advanced. My brother was in the Coast Guard for 26 or so years. I could ask him.

[GWL]

The best piece of information I learned here was the placement of the body on the chassis with the door opening and that 1/4" measurement. Great picture with the ruler, thanks. I too have to cut away from rounded over cowling at the top of the dash to allow the body to move forward.

To TMartinLVNV's issue. He has mentioned several things that will affect his decision as to how to accomplish his end goal.


He already has the trunk set to the body - don't know if he has removed any material to accomplish that or not.

It also looks like the roll bar grommets and finish pieces are set in place. I can't really see if they have been screwed down or not.



Since Jeff is doing your car and the two above items are still flexible I'd trim the cowling over dash and move the body forward so it sits where he (Jeff) thinks it should be.

Also don't know if any work has been done to fit the doors as that will also affect your decision.

Overall this has been a good discussion, thanks to everyone for adding their thoughts. :D

George

[TMartinLVNV]

So, this morning, I was in my garage, wearing shorts, t-shirt and slippers with a coffee in my hand. I was holding the hood up with the top of my head looking at my situation. Hmm, what to do? I really don't want to screw this up. I want to drive this thing sooner rather than later, but on the other hand, I plan on having this thing as long as I'm able to drive it. Screw it! I'm calling Miller now.

After getting off of the phone with him, I'm not going to do any more body work on it. He may be able to get me into his shop in about 6 weeks or so. So, I'm going to be in a holding pattern. I'll keep working on a few mechanical things but put off getting ready for registration and inspection by our DMV. I really wanted to be able to drive my gelcoat car to Huntington Beach, but my super sexy Maxima will have to do.

I'll free up some funds, switch from peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, cereal, and Miller Genuine Draft to Top Ramen and Natty Light to make this happen!

Terry

[GWL]

I think I got the Jeff's mixed up.

George

[AC Bill]

If you didn't use some shims, usually pieces of rubber seal, or foam seal, to hold the hood up even with the body while sanding the hood edges, you probably removed to much material.

You can't sand it to the point to where it sits down evenly onto the hood lip. The body opening is slightly beveled inward, where it drops down to the lip. When the hood is raised back up even with the body, as it would when fitted, the gaps around it becomes to large.
I've never seen it quite that bad, but perhaps with building up the rear edge with HSRF, and adjusting the hinge's, as suggested by others, you can get it fitting good again.

[CDXXVII]

So, this morning, I was in my garage, wearing shorts, t-shirt and slippers with a coffee in my hand. I was holding the hood up with the top of my head looking at my situation. Hmm, what to do? I really don't want to screw this up. I want to drive this thing sooner rather than later, but on the other hand, I plan on having this thing as long as I'm able to drive it. Screw it! I'm calling Miller now.

After getting off of the phone with him, I'm not going to do any more body work on it. He may be able to get me into his shop in about 6 weeks or so. So, I'm going to be in a holding pattern. I'll keep working on a few mechanical things but put off getting ready for registration and inspection by our DMV. I really wanted to be able to drive my gelcoat car to Huntington Beach, but my super sexy Maxima will have to do.

I'll free up some funds, switch from peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, cereal, and Miller Genuine Draft to Top Ramen and Natty Light to make this happen!

Terry

Best possible solution!!! Jeff Miller will get everything right. Best thing about this is that you are now committed or "should be committed" either works. :cool:

Jeff Miller got me in quicker than I expected. I was full willing to keep on procrastinating for ever. I was in a holding pattern. Carpet first, Drive in Gel Coat first, What friggin color, Sort this out, Sort that out. The call to/from Jeff got me finished. Hurray!!!!

[TMartinLVNV]

If he calls me early, I'll call in sick to work, get a trailer from Uhaul and will be there the next day. Maybe with some beverages.

[rich grsc]

If you didn't use some shims, usually pieces of rubber seal, or foam seal, to hold the hood up even with the body while sanding the hood edges, you probably removed to much material.

You can't sand it to the point to where it sits down evenly onto the hood lip. The body opening is slightly beveled inward, where it drops down to the lip. When the hood is raised back up even with the body, as it would when fitted, the gaps around it becomes to large.
I've never seen it quite that bad, but perhaps with building up the rear edge with HSRF, and adjusting the hinge's, as suggested by others, you can get it fitting good again.
He didn't sand anything off the hood, so not sure what the this means?

[AC Bill]

He didn't sand anything off the hood, so not sure what the this means?

Rich, in post # 5 he states, "The hood was oversized all the way around and was not close to fitting in the opening. I sanded all sides about evenly until the hood sat in the opening with 1/8" gap on all sides. "

[j.miller]

I think I got the Jeff's mixed up.

George
NO WORRIES !!...happens all the time....I mean , shoot! We're like twins. We look so much alike that when we see each other I'm constantly trying to fix my hair and he's trying stand up straight.....LIKE LOOKING IN A MIRROR !!! (putting on a little weight there Kleiner….damn it....that IS a mirror)...da Bat

[rich grsc]

Rich, in post # 5 he states, "The hood was oversized all the way around and was not close to fitting in the opening. I sanded all sides about evenly until the hood sat in the opening with 1/8" gap on all sides. "
You're right my mistake, sorry.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I think I got the Jeff's mixed up.

George


NO WORRIES !!...happens all the time....I mean , shoot! We're like twins. We look so much alike that when we see each other I'm constantly trying to fix my hair and he's trying stand up straight.....LIKE LOOKING IN A MIRROR !!! (putting on a little weight there Kleiner….damn it....that IS a mirror)...da Bat

Yeah, people were starting to talk about us like Michael and Janet Jackson...you know, like saying they are really the same person...you never see them at the same time and place...stuff like that. But then that "wardrobe malfunction" on Main Street at Huntington Beach a few years ago shut down all of that talk.

O-Ring

[Papa]

Yeah, people were starting to talk about us like Michael and Janet Jackson...you know, like saying they are really the same person...you never see them at the same time and place...stuff like that. But then that "wardrobe malfunction" on Main Street at Huntington Beach a few years ago shut down all of that talk.

O-Ring

The Jackson's? I was thinking more like Bruce Wayne and Batman.

[rich grsc]

Laurel and Hardy

[Big Blocker]

Just so you show up prepared, Miller (Da Bat) likes rum . . . (see post#39)

Doc

[CDXXVII]

More like Heckle and Jeckel

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=121120&d=1579713945

[steno]

I understand boxed fermented grape juice will do the trick!!

[TMartinLVNV]

Just so you show up prepared, Miller (Da Bat) likes rum . . . (see post#39)

Doc

If he gets me in early, something like this just might happen to be in the trunk.
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/thumbme.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/thumbme.jpg.html)

[rich grsc]

If he gets me in early, something like this just might happen to be in the trunk.
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/thumbme.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/thumbme.jpg.html)
Just so you know, that is required at the London Cobra Show. You can leave it with the Gateway Cobra Club in O'Fallon on your way there.:rolleyes:

[j.miller]

If he gets me in early, something like this just might happen to be in the trunk.
https://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp213/tmartinlvnv/thumbme.jpg (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/tmartinlvnv/media/thumbme.jpg.html)


I can not be bribed....I have innergrety…..BUT I GOT NO DIGGITY !....Looky there, a spot just opened up yesterday ! RUM.....MMMMMMMM...da Bat

[TMartinLVNV]

As a follow up for my hood issue and to help anyone who might also come across this problem, here is what happened at Miller's shop. Rich and Jeff K's suggestion were spot on. Miller trimmed the body above the dash and the trunk aluminum a smidge and moved the body forward. Hood fits into the body opening now.

Miller had it figured out and done in less time than I spent thinking about what cereal to have for breakfast.