Ignition Problem

[phileas_fogg]

Went out for a New Year's Day cruise, and filled up with gas. After I filled up, the car wouldn't start. The engine cranks, but I don't appear to be getting any spark.

I had the battery load tested, and it passes (rated for 450 CCA and measured at ~600 CCA). The battery (3yo Optima Yellow Top D51) is fully charged at 12.6 V.

I'm getting 12.5 V to the coil (TFI type) during run, as expected. However, at crank the voltage drops to ~10 V.

When I put jumper cables from my Jeep to the roadster, I get 14.5 V to the coil at run, and it drops to 12 V at crank.

When the engine cranks, I see on the Holley hand-held unit the RPMs are ~180-190.

Anybody got any ideas what I should test next? Any leads I should follow?


John

[CDXXVII]

Just throwing this out there.

Do you have good fuel pressure? My in tank fuel pump failed last year and I was thinking about everything but fuel.

[phileas_fogg]

Thanks for responding! Yes; fuel pressure is rock steady at 45 psi (per Holley spec) at both run & crank.


John

[Murd]

What’s your ignition setup?
My pertronix ignitor module suddenly stopped working, similar situation. Apparently leaving the ignition on with engine not running burns them out.
I’ve heard of MSD doing the same.

[phileas_fogg]

I'm using the MSD #8227 TFI coil (https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/ignition_coils/street/performance_street/parts/8227) and no ignition box.

I'm pretty good about shutting the car completely down, so I don't think that caused a coil failure. But it's good to know best practice is pulling the fuse to the coil before troubleshooting other electrical problems.

Thanks,


John

[cob427sc]

Pull a plug wire and/or plug and crank to see if you have spark. that will eliminate ignition issue.

[Boydster]

I'm using the MSD #8227 TFI coil (https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/ignition_coils/street/performance_street/parts/8227) and no ignition box.

I'm pretty good about shutting the car completely down, so I don't think that caused a coil failure. But it's good to know best practice is pulling the fuse to the coil before troubleshooting other electrical problems.

Thanks,


John

I have a TFI Accel Supercoil sitting on the shelf I'll give ya, no charge, if ya want it for troubleshooting. It worked well when it came outta my Mustang. PM me your mail addy if ya want it.

[phileas_fogg]

Thanks Boyd! That's very generous of you. I'll send you a PM shortly.


John

[Murd]

I didn’t mean the coil, the ignition module that’s inside your distributor that replaces points. Guessing you have one unless you have an old points and condenser distributor.
If you have a multi meter google how to test your coil. It’s super quick and easy to see if your coil has gone.

[Murd]

Just clicked your link. You running the ford TFI distributor then? I have no idea on those but read lots of issues and solutions on here for them.
Good luck

[first time builder]

Module inside dist !

[Railroad]

Ford had distributors with the TFI module separate from the distributor and attached to the outside, with 2 torx headed screw, of the distributor. They may have made one with an internal ignition module. I think there is some confusion with the pickup module and the TFI module. I do not think they are the same.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Motorcraft-Ignition-Control-Module-DY-893/308359503

https://www.tomsbroncoparts.com/product/pertronix-ford-tfi-module-5.0-fuel-injection-motors-66-77-ford-bronco

[Boydster]

Thanks Boyd! That's very generous of you. I'll send you a PM shortly.


John

I think I have a TFI module, too, barely used. I'll see if I can find it and drop it in the box.

[phileas_fogg]

I didn’t mean the coil, the ignition module that’s inside your distributor that replaces points. Guessing you have one unless you have an old points and condenser distributor.
If you have a multi meter google how to test your coil. It’s super quick and easy to see if your coil has gone.

My bad; I just don't know enough about engines to answer your question (I bought my engine from Forte). I do know that I've got an MSD #8456 distributor: https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/distributors/ford/parts/8456.


John

[phileas_fogg]

I think I have a TFI module, too, barely used. I'll see if I can find it and drop it in the box.

Thanks again Boyd!

[phileas_fogg]

Boydster sent me an Accell TFI coil, an MSD TFI unit, and a plastic bag with the mounting screws in it. That was very generous & I plan to pay his kindness forward.

I swapped out my MSD coil for the Accell & tried starting the car. No joy. Next, I bought an in-line spark tester (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002STSC6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). Basically a glass tube with a gap between the conductors. Tested both coils but couldn’t see any spark, plus car didn’t start.

Thinking ambient daylight was washing out the spark’s light, I tested both coils last night in the dark. Got spark with both coils AND the car ran with both coils. That seems to exonerate the battery, the coil, and the wire from the coil to the distributor, right?

So...now I’m thinking (1) bad connection on the control wires to the coil, (2) bad ground to ECU (it controls the firing of the coil), (3) intermittent failure of the TFI unit, or (4) failing distributor (I seem to recall reading how a cracked distributor housing caused an intermittent no-run condition).

Does anybody have anything else I should add?


John

P.S. This spate of cold weather is really slowing down my trouble-shooting. No heat in a garage & temps dropping into the 20s will suck the motivation right out of a person.

[jrcuz]

Good news then John. About the cold temps I've had zero motivation this winter. Temps look better the next few days.
JR

[phileas_fogg]

I continued trouble shooting today for all of about half an hour. I re-installed the original MSD coil, cycled my push button start to run, heard the fuel pump kick on for 5 seconds, and then successfully started the car. It ran for a little less than a minute & then died. While running, I got a loud pop from the right side pipe, but it ran for a couple more seconds before dying.

I started the car again; this time it ran for about 30 seconds & then died. No popping from the side pipes.

I tried starting the car again; this time it behaved like it had no spark.

Despite only having ~3000 miles on it, I replaced my TFI module with one that Boydster gave me. It was pre-greased with clear goo, so I just removed & replaced the old one.

This time the fuel pump didn't kick on when I cycled the push button start to run. With no point in trying to start with no fuel getting pumped, I walked away.

With each attempt to start, I got no error codes from the Holley Terminator ECU; everything it's monitoring looks normal.

This problem has me scratching my head & it don't itch!


John

[Railroad]

What is your fuel pressure gauge showing?

[CDXXVII]

Is your fuel system set up with a bypass regulator? If you have a bypass regulator could you bypass your fuel pump controls temporarily and keep the pump running as a test. Perhaps your fuel pressure sensor is not working properly.

My fuel pump is on a switch on my dash. Ignition on then I turn the pump on and start the car. I did not use the throttle body fuel pump controls on mine.

Just a thought

[phileas_fogg]

When the problem first surfaced, I initially thought it was fuel related since I'd had a problem with that in the past. So first thing I did was redo the connection between the Holley fuel pump wire & the Ron Francis harness. Once I was sure I had a good electrical connection to the fuel pump, I installed the fuel pressure gauge & cycled the push button start to RUN. As expected, the fuel pump came on for 5 seconds, pressure gauge showed 45 psi, fuel pump cut off, and the fuel pressure bled off. To my mind, that eliminated lack of fuel as the cause of no start so I removed the fuel pressure gauge as it's not used or needed for normal operation.

Still no start though, so I moved on to spark. That's when I started this thread, because I was having trouble figuring out if I had a component failure, an electrical failure, or both. Since the spark magically came back, that seems to have eliminated the battery & coil as the problem. Since the Holley handheld unit showed RPM signal as I was cranking, that seems to eliminate the distributor. Since the car ran for ~30 seconds and then died, that seems to indicate a TFI failure. But replacing the TFI didn't cause the car to run, and now the fuel pump isn't working. So that seems to indicate an electrical problem specifically with the Holley Terminator, since it powers the fuel pump (directly, not through a relay) AND it controls engine timing by varying SPOUT to the TFI.

So to the specific questions: I don't know what the fuel pressure was at the last test because I didn't have the fuel pressure gauge installed. And to my knowledge, there is no fuel pressure sensor in the system. There is a provision for the Holley system to monitor fuel pressure, but it's not actually used in operating the motor. The fuel pressure is set at the fuel pressure regulator, and you hand-enter that pressure into the Holley fuel tables so the ECU knows how much fuel to inject.

At this point, I'm going to assume the hardware (coil, distributor, TFI) is good, and focus on the wires & connectors. Does that seem reasonable?


John

P.S. If anybody has documentation on what the expected signal is on each wire of a Holley Terminator EFI, I'd very much appreciate a copy or link!

[weendoggy]

The Holley will not function properly with fuel pressure below 25psi. Be sure of that prior to going to spark related issues. If it comes on (based on a good tune) for the 5-10sec you programmed in the software, it should hold pressure and not bleed off.

PM sent as well.

[RJD]

Holley might be able to help you in your troubleshooting if you e-mail them the data from your handheld. I had an issue with my Holley Sniper and they were able to guide me down the path of finding a bad relay based on their reading of the data.

[Xkuzme1]

Mine did the exact same thing. I replaced the coil and it runs great. The coil I replaced it with failed in about 5 mins. I got another replacement coils and it is running perfect again. I plan on replacing it with an MSD coil. Current coil is from NAPA. $30. 4 screws and 10 mins.

X

[brewha]

Have you checked your ignition switch. Having issues at both Ignition and fuel pump at different times would lead me to think the switch may cause breaks in circuitry as it heats up and cools down. Long shot but worth a look....

[phileas_fogg]

So here's the latest.

I read on the Holley forum where disconnecting the battery for ~20 minutes seems to clear all manner of ECU problems. So I disconnected the battery a couple of days ago.

Today, I reconnected the battery & cycled the push button start (PBS) from OFF to ACC to RUN. At RUN, the fuel pump kicked on for ~5 seconds as expected & then shut down. Encouraged that my fuel "problem" had healed itself, I verified the Coolant Temperature Sensor, Manifold Air Pressure, Manifold Air Temperature, Throttle Position Sensor, & Battery indications were nominal; they were. I set the hand-held unit to record data, & cycled the PBS to CRANK. The engine started right up. I let it idle for ~5 minutes, then took it for a quick spin in my neighborhood. I mostly ran it ~2000 RPM in 2nd, with occasional bumps to 3000 RPM and a jump to 3rd. After ~20 minutes of run time, I pulled into the garage & shut it down.

PRO TIP: The Holley data logging software does NOT record data if you simply shut off the engine! You have to use the hand-held unit to stop data logging - then shut the engine down. I failed to do this, and so lost all my cold start data.

After ~30 minutes, I tried to start the car again. I cycled the PBS to ACC & then RUN. As expected, the fuel pump kicked on for ~5 seconds, then shut down. I started data logging again, and let the car idle in my garage for a couple of minutes. I then tried to rev the engine to 3000 RPM, but it wouldn't hold (despite the throttle position sensor showing I was holding steady at 3%). While I was revving the engine, I got a coupe of loud pops from each side pipe. I then let the engine idle for another minute or so, & shut it down. This time, for whatever reason & despite failing to manually stop the data log, I was able to capture some data.

To me, this exonerates the TFI (thanks to Boyd, who provided a now-known good module) and the PBS. It's looking more and more like an electrical problem in the Holley system.


John

[Boydster]

You're welcome, John. How frustrating.

[Xkuzme1]

So a follow up for Xkuzme1

It seems that one of the wires going into my coil had a short in it. It was a broken wire that when it got warm expanded enough to make a connection. For some reason, which I don’t understand, this situation caused the coils to fail. Honestly, the coils are made pretty damn cheap these days.

I used a spark detector connected between the coil wire and the distributor. I had my son keep turning over the car while I moved and pinched the wires until I found the exact smoking gun. There had been a hard fold in the wire.

Now that it is all figured out... presumably the MSD coil is the best option and best made, I just ordered one of those. Seems that the Motorcraft used to be the best but they have stopped making them.

I hope this helps someone else. This forum has been so helpful with ironing out the kinks to my car. I’ve got 1900 miles on it now. I can’t wait until spring to drive my car.

[rich grsc]

So a follow up for Xkuzme1

It seems that one of the wires going into my coil had a short in it. It was a broken wire that when it got warm expanded enough to make a connection. For some reason, which I don’t understand, this situation caused the coils to fail. Honestly, the coils are made pretty damn cheap these days.

I used a spark detector connected between the coil wire and the distributor. I had my son keep turning over the car while I moved and pinched the wires until I found the exact smoking gun. There had been a hard fold in the wire.

Now that it is all figured out... presumably the MSD coil is the best option and best made, I just ordered one of those. Seems that the Motorcraft used to be the best but they have stopped making them.

I hope this helps someone else. This forum has been so helpful with ironing out the kinks to my car. I’ve got 1900 miles on it now. I can’t wait until spring to drive my car.

MSD---buy them two at a time, keep one in the trunk.

[phileas_fogg]

So after months of sporadic trouble shooting, I think I found my smoking gun. The Coil Negative pin in my TFI connector had been arcing. It finally failed for good as I was switching back & forth between distributors (trying to eliminate the Holley ECU and the distributor itself as the cause). When I took the old connector apart I found this:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49908354078_b935f71e88_4k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emTq)IMG_6122 (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emTq) by jhsitton (https://www.flickr.com/photos/91016165@N07/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49908354118_6ef584bd1e_4k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emU7)IMG_6123 (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emU7) by jhsitton (https://www.flickr.com/photos/91016165@N07/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49908354098_4a04fb8397_4k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emTL)IMG_6126 (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emTL) by jhsitton (https://www.flickr.com/photos/91016165@N07/), on Flickr

Since replacing the harness with that connector on it, I've had dozens of successful first-time starts & run it in the garage. This week I plan to start test driving around the neighborhood - weather permitting.

Many many thanks to Boydster, Big Blocker, and especially Weendoggy for all their help. There's no way I would have found this problem without the support of this forum.


John

[Norm B]

Glad you found it. I find intermittent electric issues are the most frustrating type of failure to deal with.

[phileas_fogg]

This problem damn near drove me nuts. The only way I found it was after I removed the TFI distributor, replaced it with Holley's Ready To Run, proved the car would run, and then swapped back to the TFI. When I was trying to get the timing correct for the TFI I touched the Coil Negative wire with my wrench. The car immediately died. That led me to show those connector pictures to Weendoggy, who said I definitely had a problem.


John