power steering rack

[skullandbones]

My 92 GT donor had a power rack so that is one of the first things I installed on my project. Now it is getting close to the go kart phase. I put her on the floor in the garage for the first time ever. I really don't want to use a power steering pump. I have heard that it is doable to use it as a manual but I need some advise. How do I prepare the unit for this? It has the power steering hose connection points. I need some specific instructions on how to isolate these and how to properly lubricate and maintain the unit going forward. What do you think??

Thanks in advance, WEK.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I have heard that it is doable to use it as a manual but I need some advise.

Yes, you can run with a depowered rack & pinion but I don't think you will find anyone who is pleased with the results. Best advice; either power it up to use it as an assisted rack or spend ~$150 for a proper manual unit.

Jeff

[markesmith]

I have a depowered unit in mine (FFR 5458) has a bit of slop to it that i am getting tired of. I was going to post a question about how stiff or tight the real manual racks are. Can anyone with a real manual rack chime in and comment?

Thanks,
Mark
Naples, Florida

[skullandbones]

Hey Markesmith, I'm sure someone will address the "slop" issue. But in the mean time how did you prepare your rack to use it? Did you bleed it and cap off the hose ports? I haven't heard any specifics on how to do that so it will work properly without the pump. Do you think it could have air in the rack which might cause your problem? Just wondering. WEK.

[markesmith]

I guess i should have answered your question before hijacking the post, sorry about that. I simply plugged all of the hose fittings with brass threaded plugs. (This was over 4 years ago, so my memory isn't pefect)I believe it sealed it to the point where it would not move, I then pulled the plugs and drilled a 1/16" hole in the center of each one until it was unsealed / air would vent. It works fine and I have a great front end alignment so it drives very straight and true. The issue I have is the steering wheel probably moves 2-3" before engaging fully. I want a more true or tight feel to it. I have priced out going power but I am going to order a new rack from Breeze Automotive until cash flows more freely.

Mark
Naples, Florida

[skullandbones]

No problem, Mark! I just had to get some real live experience with this issue since it has been completely theoretical or opinion regarding the specifics on how to prepare the power rack for manual use. I heard exactly the same "solution" about drilling the small hole in the cap about 4 yrs ago. I still wonder if it is a bleeding problem. In other words, do you think that if you bled the unit, the slop might go away or be reduced or have you already tried that? Having that much play in the wheel is just not acceptable. Thanks. WEK.

While waiting for more posts, I have gone to plan B which is pulling out the power pump. I have figured out a way to mount it low so it doesn't stick up like a sore thumb. Jeff K can you explain the "valve" set up on your project. I went to your site and saw a neat "Heide Hot Rod Shop" unit with braided lines to the rack. Here we go again with "ACCESSORY ENVY"!!

[3kcarbon]

These cars don't need power steering. I went through all kinds of greif deciding what to do and what to buy. In the end I decided to go with the FFR rack and skip the power steering. There is a little effort to turn the wheel parked but that is a small issue compared to having too light a feel while driving because of a power rack. I am very pleased with the road feel and response with the manual rack. I believe power steering would have been a mistake.

[skullandbones]

Hey 3kcarbon,

I appreciate your candid comments. I believe there is a lot of truth in what you say. I bet that's why Jeff has some sort of moduator valve in his system. I was interested in what he had to say because I know he does some road racing. Have you done any such courses? I know a lot of guys have. I just don't remember which ones (not that familiar with everybody yet). I really do want to keep it simple. I will have to check out the different units out there. Thanks, again. WEK.

Note: I have fabbed a very simple set up for the pump so I could try it out and if I don't like it there is not a lot of time or money invested since the pp rack is already installed. Right now I'm trying to get this thing driving so I can register and get some road time on it. It's been sitting on it's cradle for 4.5 years (long story).

[Jeff Kleiner]

Ah, now we've gone and done it by opening up the manual vs. power steering can of worms! It makes almost as big a mess as the carb vs. EFI or base vs. complete kit ones ;)

Yes, I do a lot of autocrossing and track days as well as drive the heck out of it on the street. Power is almost a "must have" for autocross and track use. I incorporated a Heidts valve so that I can adjust the amount of assist depending on which I happen to be doing; full boost for auto-x, reduced on the street and usually somewhere in between on a road course.

http://www.heidts.com/steering_kits_components.html Go down the page to "adjustable power steering valve".

Not just for cars that get track use though...Many roadsters that will only see street duty have been built or retrofitted with power steering. Not to start up a debate again (for about the 999th time!) but it is not uncommon to hear owners who have added power after initially building with manual steering make comments like "I should have done it from the beginning". I recently completed a Mk4 for a customer which will be used as a street cruiser only and he loves the fully boosted power steering, however some drivers might prefer a little less assist. If less assist is desired the pressure relief spring in the pump can be cut to reduce it (generally about 1/8" cut from the more tightly coiled end is a good starting point). Once it is tuned for the driver's preference it can be left alone and forgotten so for these a Heidt's valve is probably not necessesary.

Another thing to remember is that with P/S you can run more caster, which will add straight ahead stability, better self centering and more camber gain when cornering---all good things (and to think that the manual rack "manly men" like my friend 3K believe it is just to make the car easier to parallel park :p. :)) If you get into the higher caster ranges with your alignment please read this safety warning though:

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244160

Good luck with whichever route you decide to take; fire away if you have more questions!

Jeff

[riptide motorsport]

I have both in 2 diferent cars,,,,,,i prefer the power steering.

[skullandbones]

Jeff,

So there's some history on this. I should have known. But seriously: 1. did you set that up for less than $200 with those nice lines and all? and 2. Variable PS is pretty cool especially if it really works well. You have enough experience with this system so is it as good as you expected it to be? I understand that the valve lets the fluid bleed back through the return line so the pump will not experience to much back pressure. Also, I guess it is somewhat objective as to how much sensitivity or road feel you want. My wife and I just test drove a Mustang and a Camaro (both with similar options). I was leaning toward the Mustang because I thought it would feel more like a sports car but I was wrong. The LT1 Camaro won hands down. Now it's sitting next to the roadster. So road feel is important! Let's don't get another argument started, right? Thanks for all the great stuff. WEK.

[LuckyWinner]

Taste Great.........Less Filling!!!!!

[rich grsc]

These cars don't need power steering. I went through all kinds of greif deciding what to do and what to buy. In the end I decided to go with the FFR rack and skip the power steering. There is a little effort to turn the wheel parked but that is a small issue compared to having too light a feel while driving because of a power rack. I am very pleased with the road feel and response with the manual rack. I believe power steering would have been a mistake.

That a very presumptuous remark, what you need on your car has nothing to do with others want or need. I have the FFR manual rack, I'm going power on my next build. At speed its easy to steer, but in traffic or parking situations its 'not easy'. Even some at FFr prefer power.


I submit my vote for power steering, even for street use (though I know it's a preference thing). I like the more modern feel, and like Brian said, it does make it much easier to drive aggressively and react quickly. Power brakes are nice too, but not as necessary in my mind.

Not sure on numbers, but from what I see for orders, it does appear that power steering cars are on the minority side.

Jason @ FFR

[Jeff Kleiner]

did you set that up for less than $200 with those nice lines and all?

Close. I just collected these numbers and prices for someone on the other forum last week:

1) Heidt's # PS101 Adjustable power steering valve---$85.00
4) AN-6 to 3/8 NPT fittings---$11.80
1) Breeze #70516 P/S rack AN adapters---$26.00
1) Breeze #21514 P/S pump AN adapter---$13.00
6) Breeze #21523 Straight AN hose ends---$45.00
1) Breeze #21524 90 degree AN hose end---$17.50
4 FT. Breeze #21102 Braided Teflon hose---$19.60
__________________________________________
Total $217.90


...You have enough experience with this system so is it as good as you expected it to be?

Yes, but I had driven and raced a FFR with the same basic setup prior to building mine so I had a benchmark going in.


Also, I guess it is somewhat objective as to how much sensitivity or road feel you want.

Precisely! As I mentioned earlier for a single use car the adjustable valve probably isn't necessary. The builder can tweak the pressure spring if desired and then forget it. It's all personal preference how much resistance a driver likes. My car drives and behaves the same whether it is at full assist or reduced (many times I have forgotten to dial it back for the drive home after a day of autocrossing).

The other variable that can play into a driver's preferences and the car's intended usage is steering rack ratio; I run the quick 2.25 turn lock to lock rack. I built Steve's street car with a 3 turn lock to lock power rack. In between the two is a 2.5 turn unit.

We kind of got derailed from your original question about prepping a depowered rack didn't we ;)

Cheers,
Jeff

[skullandbones]

There has been a little "scope creep" but that's OK. I learn more on these discussions than just the immediate subject most of the time. I would like to think we have metamorphosed this discussion from my original question to various plausible solutions. I believe we should agree that although this subject is an ongoing debate, one thing should come out of this discussion. A power rack does not work well when it is used as a manual rack. So I hope I don't see that urban legand resurface. Now someone will come along and totally discredit that statement.

I will be going to ******* tomorrow. It's a local hose fitter that does a lot of the hot rod shop's work for custom hoses. I just found out about it today from one of the shops. I think they will do the two hoses for 30 to 50 dollars. It will depend on how fancy I get with the braided hose, etc. So I will go the straight power route for the go kart to see if I like it. If I want to add the valve later it, that should be easy. I really do appreciate the conversation as it has been most informative. Thanks, WEK.

Note: If you guys want to continue debating the issue: go for it!!!