Is a basically stock 302 too little motor? Subsequent build: ITS ALIVE SEE VIDEO

[narly1]

Is a basically stock 302 too little motor for the 33?

Looking for an option that would be economical and easy to drive for many (s)miles and (s)miles down the road.

Narly1

[GoDadGo]

Is a basically stock 302 too little motor for the 33?

Looking for an option that would be economical and easy to drive for many (s)miles and (s)miles down the road.

Narly1

Narly,

Even if you are only making around 220 HP, your HP to weight ratio will be 1-10.
That was better my my old C4 Corvette that I owned from 1995-2018.
That car ran low 13's and high 12's depending on the weather.
Shown below is my Beloved C-4 as proof of ownership

https://youtu.be/svZX2BMSDEs

You Can Always Upgrade Later!

[narly1]

Thanks GoDadGo for confirming what I was thinking.

It's a light car and for my purposes I don't want a squirrely, tire smoking, donutting at-the-slightest-tap-of-the pedal, monster.

[edwardb]

(1) Yes, a mostly stock 302 would still give very lively performance, (2) "squirrely, tire smoking, donutting at-the-slightest-tap-of-the pedal, monster" with more than a mostly stock 302? No. Maybe if you got way up into the ridiculous HP ranges. But the 350-400-450 that many cite as the sweet spot for these is what I have experience with. Properly set up and with some common sense with your right foot, it's not like that at all.

[wallace18]

My 1st FFR was a 33 with a stock 5.0 out of a 93 Mustang. Car was fast, fun and great to drive. Even had a 3:08 rear axle . :cool:

[FFinisher]

My 1st FFR was a 33 with a stock 5.0 out of a 93 Mustang. Car was fast, fun and great to drive. Even had a 3:08 rear axle . :cool:

I have built in the neighborhood of 50 FFR cars, My own personal car, which was the first one I built is a Stock 302 , The car has 45,000 miles on it.

We have had tons of fun in that little car.

I do love Coyote's. But my car is still an old pushrod 302,..... there was no coyote when I built it in 2006.

The little 302 is a perfectly fine choice.

[NAZ]

It's an unalienable right: life, liberty, and the pursuit of horsepower. Get as much as you can afford and use your right foot and common sense to modulate it. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Would Carroll use a stock 302 or would he go for some heat?

[narly1]

It's an unalienable right: life, liberty, and the pursuit of horsepower. Get as much as you can afford and use your right foot and common sense to modulate it. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Would Carroll use a stock 302 or would he go for some heat?

LOL. Another good reason to keep the engine hoist around after the build is done.

[Swamplife2]

The 5.0( original) is the definitive hot rodders engine. Good output easy to work and modify, not heavy. But I enjoy living in the past

[Swamplife2]

The 5.0( original) is the definitive hot rodders engine. Good output easy to work and modify, not heavy. But I enjoy living in the past
Stone cold reliable too

[FFinisher]

It's an unalienable right: life, liberty, and the pursuit of horsepower. Get as much as you can afford and use your right foot and common sense to modulate it. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Would Carroll use a stock 302 or would he go for some heat?


Its a lot more fun to drive a car with a smaller motor hard, than a with a huge motor soft.



Carroll was building race cars , not street cars.

[AJT '33]

Mine is a 5L coyote out of a 2013 F150 (paid $2300 CDN) which I cleaned up and painted, initial HP was 320 with just an initial tune before we place it on the Dyno (my tuner says he can easily get it to 360 but suggests I drive it as is for now). Scary strong and will need to hold back my foot from overdoing it!!
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[NAZ]

Everyone has their own idea of fun. Everyone has their own idea of how much power they need to make their car fun to drive. I've had fun with a 36HP stock VW Bug. But for me, HP=Fun so the more the better. My car was a blast to drive when it had 550HP. It now has 800HP and is even more fun to drive. And that extra power came in the same size package so no modifications to the car were necessary.

IMO, if all you do is smoke the tires you need more traction not less power. Look at the rear of the car for the problem not under the hood. My 800HP can easily be controlled by the skinny pedal on the right. And when I floor it there is no drama, no smoking tires, no fishtailing -- just pure plant you in the seat acceleration. So from my perspective, there is no such thing as too much power -- just not enough traction.

[i.e.427]

Finished this car earlier this years for a customer. I had forgotten how much fun one of these really are/can be with a little pushrod 5.0. While not the most expensive build we've done, it has to be one of my favorites.

https://live.staticflickr.com/7869/47321133342_5e9d65d9b0_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2f6Bbim)20190311_120319 (https://flic.kr/p/2f6Bbim) by i.e.427 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152631091@N02/), on Flickr

[1932]

I go with Naz, more HP=more FUN. But you need a brain!

[GWL]

Start out with the 225 HP and see how you like it. Less chance of you messing up like you can with lots of HP.

I'm almost on the road with an '89 302, that will end up with about 350 HP. Part of me wishes I'd stayed with the 225 HP (cost goes up, dependability goes down). Like someone said, it's more fun to push a 225 HP roadster than tenderly driving one with lots of HP. Those with lots of HP that are advising you to go with the high HP may well be more experienced with this car and have learned how to handle high HP on the street. Go with the 225 HP and I think you'll have more fun and also knowing that it's more dependable will help with the enjoyment.

George

[Bob Cowan]

There's no such thing as too much power, only not enough control.

My engine will make 600+hp. But only when I want it to. And that's the real key - only when I want it to. I have complete control, it does what I want it to do, when I want it to. When I want to hammer it and get every last pony to the street, I can. I can also cruise along at 75 mph and get 25mpg.

It's not about power, it's about control. And - IMO - you should strive for as much of each as possible.

[Jim1855]

I agree with Bob, Naz and others. Too much - huh? Almost inconceivable. It's the thin connection between your brain and the skinny pedal that will determine how much trouble you get into.

Adding power usually costs more than buying it the first time. But, buy what YOU want. Problem is that without experience you may not (probably won't) know what's right for you.

If you want to add control during the learning phase add a throttle limiting system, i.e. control wide open throttle; training wheels are not cheating. If the throttle doesn't open all the way you won't get full torque, this is tire spin, all other things being equal. Then learn how to ease into it, the throttle is not an on/off switch. With experience additional throttle opening can be added until wide open is attained. Restricting RPM only holds back the horsepower. For most of the street motors installed in these cars full torque is generally available in the 2,500 - 3,500 rpm range, look at the dyno charts. If you go to wide open throttle you'll make full torque and the chances are good for some tire spin and/or some loss of control, this is determined by experience and car set-up.

Welcome to Sunday morning. Hammer down - cautiously.

Jim

[vckiter]

I was thinking the same thing, what is the sweet spot. I am interested in the 35 truck but I understand the chassis/frame is the same, so the weight and handling should be somewhat equal as well. I'm looking at the 350-410HP blueprint engines and figure most of the HP/torque are going to be at +5k RPM which I can just shift earlier (manual trans) and keep my foot pressure light. I've never had a hotrod but seriously considering giving it a go in my third garage spot that currently has my riding mower parked in it. LOL

[TBull]

I drove my old MKII for 10 years with the last years at 450 RWHP. It was fun and it is amazing what you get used to. I liked the 9:1 compression with the supercharger. I could cruise with it and get around 22-23 mpg or blow away most of the competition if I wanted. I think everyone is different and you should build what you are comfortablt with. I tell every new cobra owner to treat the car with a health respect and get use to it gradually or by increments. My new MK IV will have 302 based engine as well. Multi-port, Fuel Injected, Supercharged 347 Big Bore. I intend to do the exact same thing to it as I told everyone else, I'll get used to applying that power gradually and seeing how she responds. Best of luck to you and enjoy the ride. It's a blast. I miss my old car every day.

[dpariso]

I have a 4.6L (about 300hp) and wish I had more. What I mean is not off the line more but more getty-up when rolling about 35-40mph. If I ever do an engine swap or sell the Cobra... I'd get 400hp
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[Railroad]

I have a 4.6L (about 300hp) and wish I had more. What I mean is not off the line more but more getty-up when rolling about 35-40mph. If I ever do an engine swap or sell the Cobra... I'd get 400hp
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Good looking engine. Sounds like you might need more rear gear?

[dpariso]

I have Tru-Trac Detroit Locker 3.55 gears Solid Axle. Off the line... its quick (if I get traction). But if Im rolling about 40ish mph and I put the hammer down... eh, its not butt-clinch fast.

[NAZ]

Yep, you could definitely use another 300HP or so.

[JOP33]

Is a basically stock 302 too little motor for the 33?

Looking for an option that would be economical and easy to drive for many (s)miles and (s)miles down the road.

Narly1

I realize this post was from back in October, so I am a little late to the game here and also understand my frame of reference is absolutely nothing as this is my first build of any sort. When I went to the build school almost three years ago, Mark Yagelo from Roush Racing visited with us. And with me being a Newbie, his comments still ring in my ears to this day. He said (as I paraphrase), there are many people building these cars, some extremely experienced, some moderately experienced and some (like myself) not so experienced. He said very often he finds himself in a conversation with someone about putting a larger HP engine in their vehicle - Mark said the first thing I ask them to ask themself, is what about your driving or technical experiences makes you think you can handle that much horsepower in such a light car? He was quick to state that this is not an offensive statement or judgemental, but that he is just trying to understand their background with regards to driving high HP cars. He went on to say some have loads of experience and others not so much - he also said, I will never tell you to not put more HP in a car, but I will tell you that when you are driving a car and you finally hit that theoretical wall of HP that you can't handle - in most cases it doesn't end well. I think his point is that more HP is always great to have until you find that level that you can't handle.

[narly1]

Thank you all for your opinions and input, they're appreciated.

Based on your posts, I'm pretty confident with my original thinking which is to go with a fairly stock 302.

Some more on my reasons as to why:

1. Driveability: I'm at a stage where I don't have anything to prove in terms of a big HP engine. I want something that my wife (if she could wrestle the keys out of my grip, LOL) could drive to the grocery store. Better fuel economy. Something that we can comfortably and reliably ride in together for miles and miles in our sunset years.

2. Build and my skills aspects: For me it's going to be more about about the build than pride and accomplishment in the finished project. The latter aspects will just be the "icing on the cake" for me so to speak.

One of the project challenges that I've set for myself will be rebuilding the engine. I've never done a car engine before, and in fact up until only a few years ago I had never done any serious internal work on internal combustion engines of any type.

But, since then my youngest has gotten into motocross racing.

As a result I have had to learn how to do extensive 2-stroke engine work involving repairs like complete top/bottom end rebuilds, clutch/gearbox, and carburetor rebuilding/tuning. Also included in this journey there's been a healthy dose of troubleshooting experience gained, and some good lessons learned due to mistakes made.

So going into the engine rebuild I'm feeling confident with my skills and approach to engine work which is being organized, working carefully, cleanly and methodically, and following instructions to the letter.

But, I am also tempering my confidence with the fact this be a new first for me, which is why the 302. My research tells me this has the right combination of simplicity, reliability, availability and cost that I'm looking for.

On the subject of cost, yes I could just go and buy a crate engine but I'm willing to pay a bit more for the challenge /experience of doing it myself.

So a bit on the donor car I'm looking at:

It's a 1993 Cougar XR-7, with the HO engine. It has about 180K miles on it but has never been rebuilt. It is running good and is not burning any oil between changes. My thinking is that in addition to all of the usual renewal parts (water/oil pump, timing chain, gaskets, etc.) I might get away with only new crank/rod cam bearings. Being that it's an unmolested block and that it's not burning oil, I figure that any bore work will be minimal, if required at all and at least there will be enough meat in the block if that's necessary. Oversize pistons are relatively easy and cheap to find up here in Canada either new or lightly used.

From what I've read the Cougar version of the HO uses a milder cam than the Mustang so between that and the expected wear it will likely be replaced as well.

Valve and head wise I figure I will cross that bridge when I come to it....depending on condition just run them as-is if they are good, or if not switch them out for something that breathes a bit better (with the HP upgrade that some of you guys were talking about) at the same time.

Similarly the intake/EFI components I am thinking of running as-is to begin with. Part of me would like to go with one of the aftermarket intake/EFI kits right from the start and have that more of an old-timey look.

Another part of the heads/intake/EFI aspect is that these are things I could always do later as finances allow and increased HP "needs" "dictate" (LOL).

Tinkering, fixing, making is in my DNA so having these happen after the project is done would keep these itchy fingers busy.

Oh, finally I should probably add that I don't have the kit yet. I'm pre-retirement by a few years. The driveline work is the start and a way of giving myself something to keep inspired/motivated/busy on until the build becomes my new "full time" job. This would be a great point for any comments re taking the finished engine somewhere to have it run-up and broken-in/dyno'd to make sure there are no surprises for when it's needed.

Looking forward to all of your thoughts and comments.

[NAZ]

For those that have never rebuilt any engine before I always recommend a crate engine. In fact, a crate engine can be had for less than I can build one myself and I have all the expensive tools and precision measuring equipment and years of experience building engines. And a crate engine comes with a warranty.

You have some experience rebuilding a single-cylinder 2-stroke engine which is certainly a start but I still suspect you still don't know what you don't know when it comes to properly assembling an automotive engine.

We all started somewhere -- for me it was long long ago and I jumped head-first into the unknown with lot's of unfounded confidence. Somehow I managed to rebuild several engines that actually ran good before I received formal training from Ford on the subject and knew what I was doing. So if you really want the experience and are willing to pay more and take a chance then do it right. Search the internet and find books on how to rebuild a 302 SBF specifically and how to properly assemble an automotive engine in general (these will usually refer to "blueprinting an engine"). Then purchase the precision measuring instruments and specialty engine building tools that will help you do it right (here's a hint: if you plan to use Plastigage to check you're bearing clearances you're not doing it right). Books on how to build an engine will cover the tools and measuring instruments required. If you want the experience and learn how to do it right it will be an expensive education. If you just throw an engine together and hope for the best, good luck -- it sometimes works out and other times it doesn't. When it doesn't it becomes an expensive hard-knocks lesson.

But most of all, have fun. It's your car, build it your way.

[narly1]

I suspect that the difference between crate engines and rebuilding is a little narrower up here in Canada. Certainly the landed cost into Canada for a US engine makes the prospect 30% more attractive, LOL.

Regarding doing my research first, I've already started pouring over the Reid and Monroe books and watching/reading as much as I can find on-line.

I'm not too proud to ask for advice, if you have any special tips or tricks that you've learned over the years I'm all ears.

Also any advice on what specialty tools I will need, and what quality they need to be? This is what I have compiled so far:

- Harmonic balancer puller (cheap one)
- torque wrench (good one)
- piston ring compressor (cheap one)
- cam degree wheel
- bore gauge (not sure if I need one or not as I will be working with my local engine m/c shop as to whether a re-bore is needed)
- vernier for measuring piston dia. (I have a cheap one but think I should be buying a good one, ideally with a calibration cert.)

Thanks again,

Narly1

[Bob Cowan]

I have built many Windsor engines over the last couple decades. I do not own a bore gauge or a quality Vernier caliper set. Never needed them.

I mostly use an inexpensive adjustable ring compressor. But I also own a fixed compressor for a specific bore. I find that much easier to use.

'93 cast iron cylinder heads are crap. Don't even bother to try and mod them or rebuild them. They do make wonderful boat anchors.

IMO, Dart aluminum Pro-1 heads are the best bang for the buck on today's market. It's a quality product at a reasonable price. Other heads make more power, but you'll pay more for them and may not get as high a quality.

The stock engine has a compression ratio of about 8.8. That's not terrible. But if you install a bigger cam, it might drop your dynamic compression ratio more than you'de like. Be sure and do the math before ordering heads. Most aftermarket heads are available with different size combustion chambers.

[TxMike64]

My advice would be to have the machine shop zero-deck the block and do the rotating assembly for you. There's still plenty of other assembly work for you to do that won't be as critical to engine life. This is the way I've always done it.

If the cost isn't so big an issue I would ditch the stock EFI and intake manifold and choose one of the many many aftermarket EFI systems. They'll be much easier to get running and tune, as well as being much easier to install in a car like this.

[TxMike64]

My advice would be to have the machine shop zero-deck the block and do the rotating assembly for you. There's still plenty of other assembly work for you to do that won't be as critical to engine life. This is the way I've always done it.

If the cost isn't so big an issue I would ditch the stock EFI and intake manifold and choose one of the many many aftermarket EFI systems. They'll be much easier to get running and tune, as well as being much easier to install in a car like this.

[narly1]

So this happened on Christmas Eve Day. An early present to myself. 88 MY 5l Engine and AOD transmission with 50K miles (80,000 Km) for $450 CAD.

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[narly1]

Got this as a "Christmas present" from my family (it was on sale cheap at $25 CAD at Princess Auto, the Canadian version of Harbour Freight):

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[narly1]

Snagged this on Kijiji for $50 CAD:

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and from the same guy this for $100 CAD:

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[narly1]

It's been mild here in southern Ontario the past few days. So far I have separated the transmission & TC from the engine. Degreased and washed and loaded back into the pick-up for delivery to my local transmission shop guy. In the past he has done good work on our daily drivers so I expect that he will be fair and honest with me regarding this project.

[narly1]

I heard back from my transmission guy today. Best description is that it is in good, but old condition. So all new seals and while he's in there a rebuild is in the cards. He also suggests adding a shift kit. I was surprised to learn from him that shorter,crisper cause less band wear than laggy, stock shifts. Also upgrading to the more robust AODE overdrive band. He also notes that the torque converter is showing signs of bulging and recommends a new one. Thinking I will wait to pull the trigger on that until the engine is done, idea being that at least I will have then opportunity to pick what is best based on how it turns out.

[narly1]

Baby steps. If you're going to do good work a clean workspace is a must. New stainless steel top and a fresh coat of gray paint on my old but sturdy wooden work bench.

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[narly1]

Finally got the 302 up on the stand and stripped it down to the bare bones over the last couple of days

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[narly1]

Had the block up on the bench tonight for some measurements.
Bore out of round and tapers all measure less than .001". Factory specs are .005" and .010" respectively.

Factory bore dia spec is 4.0004 - 4.0048". Measured 4.0008 - 4.0028 so if my bore gauge is any where near accurate all they should need is a light ball hone.

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[narly1]

Checking connecting rods at the big end. Used my $20 vernier to set the bore gauge to 2.2395" so not hugely confident in the accuracy of my diameter measurements.

That being said they are all reading fairly consistent (about .0015" smaller than spec) so that's a good thing. My bore out of round or ovality measurements I trust as they are relative. Only seeing .0002-.0005" with the bearings out.

Bearings in is another story. Where the two halves meet, and just before the bore gauge anvils fall into the "crack", the surfaces are quite high, in the order of .0045 to .005". I guess this is the result of the bearing material being "squished" outward (towards the center of the bore) when the rod bolts are torqued down.

126584

[MPTech]

You can also get some of the tools you mentioned (ie: harmonic balance puller, maybe others) from Auto-Zone for free, part of the tool lender program. I also did this to pull the PS pulley too.

[narly1]

You can also get some of the tools you mentioned (ie: harmonic balance puller, maybe others) from Auto-Zone for free, part of the tool lender program. I also did this to pull the PS pulley too.

LOL Tools to me are like shoes to my wife....you can never have enough, LOL.

[narly1]

OK so machine shop says bores are about 4.006 to 4.007 at the top so a rebore is required. Going with .020" which is the minimum step up in terms of oversize pistons.

Going with Silv-O-Lite 3101HC's.

Crank is mint and only requires a polish.

Rods are fine, just changing out the stock bolts with new ones from ARP.

[narly1]

I just recently got my engine back from the machine shop.

Let's see how far I get over the next few days with this list I made for myself LOL.
Let me know if you see any steps that are missing.

FORD 302 ENGINE ASSEMBLY STEPS

Parts preparation and pre-assembly checks/measurements:

1. Cosmoline coat block, crankshaft, and piston/rod assemblies.
2. Close visual inspection of block, crankshaft, and piston/rod assemblies.
3. Chase and clean all tapped holes (block and crankshaft)
4. Strip off blue block paint.
5. Thorough wash, clean, blow-out with air. Dry block and crankshaft.
6. Coat crankshaft with WD-40
7. Mask and re-paint block black.
8. Coat unpainted block surfaces with WD-40
9. Double-check crankshaft oiling holes for cleanliness. Re-clean as required using nylon soda straw brush.
10. Install main bearings in block.
11. Check crankshaft to main bearing clearance using mechanical gauge and plastigauge techniques. Record measurements.
12. Check crankshaft and block oiling hole alignments using grease technique.
13. Clean grease off of crankshaft and main bearings, re-install with light oiling.
14. Install main caps, bolts lightly tightened (but not torqued).
Turn crankshaft by hand, check for smoothness.
15. Install rod bearings into one piston/rod assembly (without piston rings installed).
16. Pre-measure crankshaft journal and rod bearing dimensions to ensure that there is sufficient clearance for them to freely move.
17. Oil cylinder bore and piston/rod assembly and install into block and onto crankshaft. Rod bolts lightly tightened, (but not torqued).
18. Rotating crankshaft by hand, use a dial indicator to determine TDC. Then check piston to deck clearance/height. Record measurement.
19. Uninstall piston/rod assembly from block.
20. Clean oil off of crankshaft, piston/rod assembly and bearings.
Spray crankshaft with WD-40 if not re-installing immediately and set aside. Wash and dry main bearings and rod bearing and set aside. Re-coat rod big end of piston/rod assembly with Cosmoline. Set aside.


Camshaft-main bearings-rear main seal-crankshaft installation and assembly:

1. Deburr edges of camshaft lobes as necessary with fine jeweller's file. Wash, clean, and air blow dry. Spray with WD-40.
2. Pre-lube cam bearings
3. Lube and install camshaft taking care not to nick cam bearings during installation. Check camshaft for smooth rotation in block.
4. Install camshaft retainer. Assembly lube on back side of retainer. Loctite and torque bolts 10 ft-lbs.
5. Clean mains area of block once again with brake cleaner.
6. Install main bearings. They go in with the block side dry. Coat journal side with assembly lube.
7. Spotlessly clean crankshaft with brake cleaner.
8. Install crankshaft into block. Without main caps installed end play should be .004-.009” Record measurement.
9. Install rear main seal. Aviation gasket sealer on metal skirt.
10. Install rear main cap. Watch rear main seal for unwanted deformation and misalignment while tightening down rear main cap. Torque to spec 70 ft-lbs. Clean excessive gasket sealer off of block and main cap. Turn crank by hand to check for ease of rotation and smoothness.
11. Install first, second and fourth main caps. Torque to spec 70 ft-lbs. With each successive main cap installation turn crank by hand to check for ease of rotation and smoothness.
12. Install #3 main cap (with thrust bearing) last. Before tightening #3 cap push the crank forward to square the thrust bearing surface and main cap to the crank. Torque to spec 70 ft-lbs.
13. Check crankshaft end play again after torquing #3 main cap. Should be .004-.008” Record measurement.

[33fromSD]

I just recently got my engine back from the machine shop.

Let's see how far I get over the next few days with this list I made for myself LOL.
Let me know if you see any steps that are missing.

FORD 302 ENGINE ASSEMBLY STEPS

Parts preparation and pre-assembly checks/measurements:

1. Cosmoline coat block, crankshaft, and piston/rod assemblies.
2. Close visual inspection of block, crankshaft, and piston/rod assemblies.
3. Chase and clean all tapped holes (block and crankshaft)
4. Strip off blue block paint.
5. Thorough wash, clean, blow-out with air. Dry block and crankshaft.
6. Coat crankshaft with WD-40
7. Mask and re-paint block black.
8. Coat unpainted block surfaces with WD-40
9. Double-check crankshaft oiling holes for cleanliness. Re-clean as required using nylon soda straw brush.
10. Install main bearings in block.
11. Check crankshaft to main bearing clearance using mechanical gauge and plastigauge techniques. Record measurements.
12. Check crankshaft and block oiling hole alignments using grease technique.
13. Clean grease off of crankshaft and main bearings, re-install with light oiling.
14. Install main caps, bolts lightly tightened (but not torqued).
Turn crankshaft by hand, check for smoothness.
15. Install rod bearings into one piston/rod assembly (without piston rings installed).
16. Pre-measure crankshaft journal and rod bearing dimensions to ensure that there is sufficient clearance for them to freely move.
17. Oil cylinder bore and piston/rod assembly and install into block and onto crankshaft. Rod bolts lightly tightened, (but not torqued).
18. Rotating crankshaft by hand, use a dial indicator to determine TDC. Then check piston to deck clearance/height. Record measurement.
19. Uninstall piston/rod assembly from block.
20. Clean oil off of crankshaft, piston/rod assembly and bearings.
Spray crankshaft with WD-40 if not re-installing immediately and set aside. Wash and dry main bearings and rod bearing and set aside. Re-coat rod big end of piston/rod assembly with Cosmoline. Set aside.


Camshaft-main bearings-rear main seal-crankshaft installation and assembly:

1. Deburr edges of camshaft lobes as necessary with fine jeweller's file. Wash, clean, and air blow dry. Spray with WD-40.
2. Pre-lube cam bearings
3. Lube and install camshaft taking care not to nick cam bearings during installation. Check camshaft for smooth rotation in block.
4. Install camshaft retainer. Assembly lube on back side of retainer. Loctite and torque bolts 10 ft-lbs.
5. Clean mains area of block once again with brake cleaner.
6. Install main bearings. They go in with the block side dry. Coat journal side with assembly lube.
7. Spotlessly clean crankshaft with brake cleaner.
8. Install crankshaft into block. Without main caps installed end play should be .004-.009” Record measurement.
9. Install rear main seal. Aviation gasket sealer on metal skirt.
10. Install rear main cap. Watch rear main seal for unwanted deformation and misalignment while tightening down rear main cap. Torque to spec 70 ft-lbs. Clean excessive gasket sealer off of block and main cap. Turn crank by hand to check for ease of rotation and smoothness.
11. Install first, second and fourth main caps. Torque to spec 70 ft-lbs. With each successive main cap installation turn crank by hand to check for ease of rotation and smoothness.
12. Install #3 main cap (with thrust bearing) last. Before tightening #3 cap push the crank forward to square the thrust bearing surface and main cap to the crank. Torque to spec 70 ft-lbs.
13. Check crankshaft end play again after torquing #3 main cap. Should be .004-.008” Record measurement.

I may have missed it in your short list :) but be sure to check / clean the oil galleys...lots of junk can sit in these even after the machine shop does their magic.

[narly1]

I may have missed it in your short list :) but be sure to check / clean the oil galleys...lots of junk can sit in these even after the machine shop does their magic.

For sure will do. Thanks for pointing that out. When I'm done cleaning everything you'll be able to eat off of it LOL.

The m/c shop bagged everything once they were done. I was surprised to see a small amount of what looks like sandblasting grit in the bottom of the bag. I'm thinking that it must have shaken out of the cooling passages on the way home.

[GWL]

LOL Tools to me are like shoes to my wife....you can never have enough, LOL.

And neither of us can understand the other.

George

[junglejim]

Narly1, I was just reading your thread, and saw where you posted that your rod bearings show a lot of clearance near the parting line. Fear not, for this is normal. The bearing manufacturers learned long ago that this is necessary, because inertia loads on the con rod, and to a lesser degree, the mains, tend to oval the housing bore. If more clearance is not engineered into these areas, the bearing edge will in effect squeegee the oil off of the crankshaft. Your oil clearance is measured at 90 degrees from the bearing parting lines. Hope this helps ease your mind.
Another important measurement tip is the pistons. Clearance is measured at 90 degrees from pin bore, and typically at, or just below pin centerline, depending on design. The reason being that pistons are built with a cam and barrel profile to allow for expansion.

[jeremustang]

Narly1, I did an identical 5.0 rebuild about 15 years ago, and here are some tips I learned along the way when I got the block back:

- immediately coat the bores with WD-40 after cleaning. They will rust almost instantly once dried off
- Get a 1/4" NPT tap and tap all the oil gallery holes for screw-in gallery plugs. It's cheap insurance. On my build, one of the plugs popped out after only 5-10 miles and I found it in the oil pan later(along with very low oil pressure). It's a one time opportunity and very cheap insurance.
- Before installing pistons, wipe the bores down with ATF. It cleans the dirt off AND lubricates the bores before assembly. Keep wiping with rags and ATF until the rags no longer look dirty.
- Don't forget to put short sections of fuel hose on the rod bolts when you push the pistons/rods into the block. Keeps the crank from getting damaged.

Have fun! Sounds like a great project!

[narly1]

Narly1, I was just reading your thread, and saw where you posted that your rod bearings show a lot of clearance near the parting line....

Thanks, those were the old parts measured during disassembly but definitely good to know. All new bearings and pistons are going in but like they say trust no one!

[narly1]

Narly1, I did an identical 5.0 rebuild about 15 years ago, and here are some tips I learned along the way when I got the block back:

- immediately coat the bores with WD-40 after cleaning. They will rust almost instantly once dried off
- Get a 1/4" NPT tap and tap all the oil gallery holes for screw-in gallery plugs. It's cheap insurance. On my build, one of the plugs popped out after only 5-10 miles and I found it in the oil pan later(along with very low oil pressure). It's a one time opportunity and very cheap insurance.
- Before installing pistons, wipe the bores down with ATF. It cleans the dirt off AND lubricates the bores before assembly. Keep wiping with rags and ATF until the rags no longer look dirty.
- Don't forget to put short sections of fuel hose on the rod bolts when you push the pistons/rods into the block. Keeps the crank from getting damaged.

Have fun! Sounds like a great project!

Thanks!

- The bores were pretty pristine when I got everything home. I knew it would be a few weeks before I would be getting to it so I sprayed everything with Maxxima chain wax which is very much like Cosmoline.
- When you say oil galley plugs do you meant two near the cam retainer plate?
- I've heard of the ATF trick and will use it when I finally get to that stage (That will go on a third list for another day LOL).
- Same with the rod bolt protection.

I've already learned so much and I'm really enjoying myself.

Lots of guys post about the excitement of go-kart day. I have an earlier milestone than that to look forward to: firing up my engine for the first time on a stand before it ever goes near a chassis!

[jeremustang]

- When you say oil galley plugs do you meant two near the cam retainer plate?


Yes, IIRC there are 3 plugs around the cam in the front, and also 3 around the cam in the back of the block. There's also a big plug in the back of the lifter valley, but I always left that as a press in plug.

[narly1]

Yes, IIRC there are 3 plugs around the cam in the front, and also 3 around the cam in the back of the block. There's also a big plug in the back of the lifter valley, but I always left that as a press in plug.

I just took a look and the 3 in back have threaded in plugs but the 3 in front around the cam are press-in style. And of course the one big one at the back of the lifter valley is still a press-in.

So one more step to add to the list LOL.

[junglejim]

The three plugs in the rear of the block are always threaded. the three in the front are not threaded in production. If you use the push in plugs, stake the edges after installation with a dull chisel. This closes the bore in front of the plug, reducing the chance of blowing them out with oil pressure. Tapping the bores and using screw in plugs is a much better way to seal the galley. The 3/4" plug in the lifter valley is covering a junction joining left to right side oil passages and is too shallow to effectively tap for screw in plug. If removed(as it should be during cleaning), it should be pressed in with hardening sealer & staked after assembly. If you look closely at the rim of the bore you'll see small eyebrow looking depressions around the bore where the plug was staked in during initial assembly.
I worked for 20 years as an automotive machinist, & have machined & built over 400 engines from single cylinder to earth movers.

[narly1]

The three plugs in the rear of the block are always threaded....

Thanks for the extra info and clarification.

I checked my block this afternoon and I can confirm what you are saying about the back 3 already being threaded. Also the front 3 are definitely press-in type. I haven't taken a close look to see if my m/c shop staked them in place or not.

Either way it doesn't matter, they're coming out and being replaced by threaded ones.

On a side note, what's the easiest way to get those little plugs out?

I am thinking of drilling a hole into the center of each one and running an appropriate sized screw into the hole. I would then grab onto the screw with a slide hammer/bearing popper tool that I have and pop the plugs out.

How does that sound? Of course I'll use a stop on the drill bit and and only run the screw in a few turns as I don't want to damage anything located behind the plugs (especially the lifter bore behind the one plug on the driver's side).

[junglejim]

the easiest way to get them out is to unscrew the three in the rear & use a long rod to knock the front plugs out from behind. Fords were usually square ended plugs in the rear, but later on went to socket hex. The plugs are usually very tight, and need to be heated with a torch until they begin to smoke. If you choose to puncture the front plugs and pull them out with a lag bolt, the rears should still come out to thoroughly clean the galley. The reason I noted that they were changed to socket hex is because it's easy to round them out trying to remove them if you don't heat them. You won't hurt the lifter bore drilling through the plug, it runs the entire length of the block, at least the two outers do.

[narly1]

the easiest way....

Thanks for the tip. I'll grab a length of rod stock while I'm out tap shopping tomorrow.

The M/C shop replaced the 3 the back with socket head type plugs. Seeing as they were just installed I would hope that they would come out easy.

Before the block went to the M/C shop I took the old plugs out myself. Surprisingly they came out no problem. I used a 3/8" extension backwards on the square lug on the plug and a socket and long bar as I recall...

[narly1]

The M/C shop replaced the 3 the back with socket head type plugs. Seeing as they were just installed I would hope that they would come out easy.....


Wrong-O.

Man those plugs are in so tight that I snapped off the 1/4" hex driver I was using on them in conjunction with a 24" breaker bar...it broke something alright, LOL.

So I guess the next step is to add some heat to loosen things up. My question re doing that is "Will I mess up the seal on the bigger plug they are all close to?".

[jeremustang]

A little heat probably won't hurt anything. The next step is usually the hex plug getting stripped as you try to turn it. If that happens, I've always had good luck hammering in a torx bit that is a little bit bigger than the hex plug. It sort of "grabs" the plug to prevent it from stripping further and will turn it out.

[junglejim]

The plugs were (or at least should have been) installed with sealer, maybe Loctite. If you heat them just until they smoke you shouldn't bother the cam galley plug. If that makes you nervous, the idea of driving a slightly larger torx bit in the plug is something that has worked for me numerous times. as it goes in it stretches the plug slightly loosening it from the sides.

[narly1]

Well, I got 'em out. Yes there was sealer on them. I used my propane torch which was just enough heat to soften the sealer up. That and a cold shock of WD40. Probably no where near enough heat to disturb the cam galley plug. The hexes on the plugs look a little beat up...so out they go.

Thanks for all the advice guys!

[33fromSD]

Well, I got 'em out. Yes there was sealer on them. I used my propane torch which was just enough heat to soften the sealer up. That and a cold shock of WD40. Probably no where near enough heat to disturb the cam galley plug. The hexes on the plugs look a little beat up...so out they go.

Thanks for all the advice guys!

If I had to guess I would say it was more thread locker than sealer. Machine shops normally put thread locker on these so they don't vibrate out. Glad you got them out.

[narly1]

The sealant itself was white, not red or blue as one would expect for Loctite.

[33fromSD]

Probably just a white thread sealer.

[junglejim]

It's probably PTFE pipe sealant paste. Quick tip: If you need something like Loctite, but don't have any on hand, this stuff works great.

[narly1]

Knocking the press-in plugs out from behind with a length of 3/8" rod stock was a piece of cake. Tapping the holes went fairly easy as well. For the one that's located behind the cam retainer plate I made sure that I went deep enough with the threads so that the top of the pipe plug sits below the surface a bit. I wanted to make sure that it didn't interfere with the retainer plate's ability to sit flat.

OK now back to finishing the tapping and cleaning of all the threaded holes.

[narly1]

Attention to detail is everything. Crisis averted. In the process of chasing out all the threaded holes on my block today I learned that the holes for the lifter spider hold down bolts are in fact NOT blind and that the OD of the 2nd and 4th cam bearings are at bottom of the hole.

Had I run my tap down without checking first I could have easily damaged a couple of cam bearings!

[Bronco Mike]

Do you have a copy of Tom Monroe’s book, “How to Rebuild Ford Small Block Engines”? I highly recommend it.

[narly1]

I do. It was one of the first things I purchased before embarking on this adventure.

[narly1]

OK, so off with the Ford blue the M/C shop used and a fresh coat of black enamel. In between I went through all the bores with a set of stainless steel brushes, then a good hour of pressure washing and scrubbing followed by a thorough drying out using air and heat guns.

One last step before I replaced the oil galley plugs, I pulled a cloth rag soaked in brake cleaner through the bores. They were surprisingly dirty even though they got the brush treatment earlier. See pictures.

Finally installed the new plugs with fresh sealant.

All done for the weekend now and happy with my progress.

136493136494136495136496

[narly1]

Yes those are my old undies and no they weren't stained like that to begin with LOL.

For those who are keeping track I'm now at step# 10 on my list.

[33fromSD]

OK, so off with the Ford blue the M/C shop used and a fresh coat of black enamel. In between I went through all the bores with a set of stainless steel brushes, then a good hour of pressure washing and scrubbing followed by a thorough drying out using air and heat guns.

One last step before I replaced the oil galley plugs, I pulled a cloth rag soaked in brake cleaner through the bores. They were surprisingly dirty even though they got the brush treatment earlier. See pictures.

Finally installed the new plugs with fresh sealant.

All done for the weekend now and happy with my progress.

136493136494136495136496

Just checking....in the first pic, is that a scratch on the outer cam bearing surface?

[narly1]

Thanks for keeping a close eye on my work!

I just went out to the garage and checked. What you are seeing must have been a piece of lint from the galley cleaning rags. Either that or a reflection?

The cam bearing is in perfect condition.

[33fromSD]

Cool...just checking...I know after putting so much effort into this that would really suck to see that. Although, if you had to pick a cam bearing to replace that would be the easiest. :)

[narly1]

True that. Never having installed cam bearings (don't have the tool nor the experience).

Just curious, say the 5th one was bad.

Can you take out the rear plug and get at it for removal from the back side?

[33fromSD]

True that. Never having installed cam bearings (don't have the tool nor the experience).

Just curious, say the 5th one was bad.

Can you take out the rear plug and get at it for removal from the back side?

Yeah, you can...it's 2 - 4 that are tricky

[junglejim]

Just to satisfy the curiosity, the cam bearings are surprisingly easy to replace. Believe it or not, the end ones are a little trickier, because it's easy to **** them when installing. My normal procedure is to install either end one from the inside, going all the way through the block with the tool. The centering cone supplied with the tool holds the rod in alignment for you that way. Years & years of installing cam bearings & freeze plugs!
If any of you brave souls is intent on trying, just remember, preparation is everything. Rub the bores with 320 emery cloth just until shiny first & lightly oil the housing bore & bearing. Oh, & be sure to line up the oil supply holes properly. Chryslers have three on bearings 2 & 5 most Fords have two on the number one.
If anybody has a small block Chevy, there is 3 different diameters used, number one being the largest (also two holes, don't know why, one of them doesn't line up with anything)
then 2&5 are 10 thousandths smaller in outside diameter, then 3&4 are 10 thousandths smaller in outside diameter than 2&5. All are the same inside diameter. The housing bores are grooved, so the oil hole in the bearing isn't picky. I put the hole at 4 oclock as viewed from the front with the block upright so that cam rotation will roll the oil under. I think if you position the holes at the top they just leak a lot more oil, since the valve train tends to push the cam downward.

[narly1]

I managed to find some pipe cleaners and a set of tiny bottle brushes at our local dollar store this afternoon, so step #11 on my list got completed tonight. I would eat off of this thing if it wasn't for the final wipe down with WD-40 to keep it from rusting.

136540

[33fromSD]

Just to satisfy the curiosity, the cam bearings are surprisingly easy to replace. Believe it or not, the end ones are a little trickier, because it's easy to **** them when installing. My normal procedure is to install either end one from the inside, going all the way through the block with the tool. The centering cone supplied with the tool holds the rod in alignment for you that way. Years & years of installing cam bearings & freeze plugs!
If any of you brave souls is intent on trying, just remember, preparation is everything. Rub the bores with 320 emery cloth just until shiny first & lightly oil the housing bore & bearing. Oh, & be sure to line up the oil supply holes properly. Chryslers have three on bearings 2 & 5 most Fords have two on the number one.
If anybody has a small block Chevy, there is 3 different diameters used, number one being the largest (also two holes, don't know why, one of them doesn't line up with anything)
then 2&5 are 10 thousandths smaller in outside diameter, then 3&4 are 10 thousandths smaller in outside diameter than 2&5. All are the same inside diameter. The housing bores are grooved, so the oil hole in the bearing isn't picky. I put the hole at 4 oclock as viewed from the front with the block upright so that cam rotation will roll the oil under. I think if you position the holes at the top they just leak a lot more oil, since the valve train tends to push the cam downward.

On SBFs I always struggle with the middle one for some reason...not sure if its my technique or position in the block but I've done a dozen of these little 289/302s over the years and every time the middle one takes me forever. I don't mind the end ones......definitely need the right puller / installer for removing and installing and to Jim's point, proper prep is key.

I did my 318 on my 70 challenger a couple years back and that one was pretty straight forward.

[narly1]

Listening to you guys' "horror stories" I'm glad that I left the cam bearing install for the M/C shop to do.

[narly1]

Bearings installed, crankshaft in the block and clearances checked using both precision gauge and Plastigauge methods. A larger variation in my gauge measurements as compared to the Plastigauge which I attribute to the fact that I was using my cheap vernier to capture the journal OD's instead of a micrometer. All measurements were still in spec so on to the next step.

136631

[junglejim]

Any caliper type measuring device can only be trusted to get within approximately 2-3 thousandths. Even a good micrometer can give you false readings if not properly cared for & calibrated. Also one must be sure that the micrometer and whatever you're measuring are at the same temperature. Used to have people bring cranks in to mic during cold weather and want an answer immediately. Uhhh sorry?

[narly1]

Any caliper type measuring device...

With the vernier you have the deeper jaws. I would hazard a guess that on a precise level the probably look like this \ /, so the dimension will vary depending on how far up or down the jaw you place the bore gauge tips. I know enough to rock the bore gauge back and forth to find the maxima and set that as zero. When you think about it this is why micrometers have a relatively small surface area on their jaws.

And I understand how materials expand and contract with temperature.

Since the last post I have taken the crankshaft back out and smeared the journals with some assembly lube, put it back in, and spun it a couple of rotations. I did this as the movement leaves some telltale marks (grooves actually) in the lube that show how the oiling holes in the crankshaft, bearing and block all line up. I was surprised to see that the crankshaft holes are not centered over the the grooves/holes in the other components. The oiling passages in the crankshaft go in and out at an angle, I'm thinking this is done to allow for smooth oil flow and also so that the rotation of the crankshaft "pumps" the oil through them due to centrifugal forces.

So today things are getting serious (like they weren't before LOL). The block is going to get moved off of my benchtop and onto a stand so I can mock-up piston assemblies in all 4 corners of it. I am doing this to check deck height and confirm how square the crankshaft is to the block (Note that I did not have the block line bored, my thinking being that they were fine together before. Hopefully my checks today will bear out my theory.) Plan is to put the piston assemblies into the block lubed, but without rings installed for this checking operation.

[narly1]

Something thing I noticed during my work so far is that there are a couple of shallow scratches in the crankshaft surface where the rear main seal is supposed to ride. How concerned should I be about these in terms of them causing seal leakage? Should I polish them out with 2000 grit and proceed?. Do note that I will be running the engine on a test stand before it gets married to the transmission and dropped into the car, so if there's leakage I can always go the repair sleeve route at that point. Note that I am going to start off with the a teflon rear main seal.

I should also add that I have already put a repair sleeve on my new harmonic balancer. I figured for $5 it was cheap insurance against the timing cover seal wearing a groove into it.

[junglejim]

Radial scratches usually are the result of grit imbedding in the seal. If they can't be felt, there's no issue. hand polishing won't bother it unless you rub a flat spot in it by concentrating only on the scratch. Scratches that run perpendicular to rotation may cause a problem, depending on how deep or sharp edged they are.

Checking the four corners for piston height in relation to block is a great idea and one that is commonly used by good builders. Know though that there are tolerances allowed in manufacture that could make one rod (or several) longer or shorter, same with pistons. Usually not immediately noticeable. If you get different heights from one corner to another, it is a good ide to swap the piston/rod assembly from one position to another & remeasure just to verify.

[33fromSD]

Something thing I noticed during my work so far is that there are a couple of shallow scratches in the crankshaft surface where the rear main seal is supposed to ride. How concerned should I be about these in terms of them causing seal leakage? Should I polish them out with 2000 grit and proceed?. Do note that I will be running the engine on a test stand before it gets married to the transmission and dropped into the car, so if there's leakage I can always go the repair sleeve route at that point. Note that I am going to start off with the a teflon rear main seal.

I should also add that I have already put a repair sleeve on my new harmonic balancer. I figured for $5 it was cheap insurance against the timing cover seal wearing a groove into it.

A HB repair sleeve is just that, a "repair" meant to simulate adding back the material lost due to wear which causes leaking by the seal. By adding a repair sleeve to a brand new HB with no groove in it you may self introduce a leak on the timing cover seal by stretching the seal. The $5 cheap insurance your seeking may end up costing you more down the line.

Just my opinion, but I personally would not put a repair sleeve on a brand new HB.

[narly1]

A HB repair sleeve is just that, a "repair" meant to simulate adding back the material lost due to wear which causes leaking by the seal. By adding a repair sleeve to a brand new HB with no groove in it you may self introduce a leak on the timing cover seal by stretching the seal. The $5 cheap insurance your seeking may end up costing you more down the line.

Just my opinion, but I personally would not put a repair sleeve on a brand new HB.

The way I figure it in the case of a repaired HB, the sleeve doesn't "sink" down and fill any groove worn into the HB. It just ends up creating a smooth, flat surface, arguably of slightly larger OD. I would expect that Felpro have taken the minute amount of seal stretch into account. That and I already put the damn thing on with the red Loctite it came with. Getting it off without causing any damage to the HB would be difficult.

And I'm clever enough to realize that the HB goes onto the crankshaft and it's "snout"gets slid down into the seal before the timing cover bolts get snugged down. You can't expect the "snout" of the HB to be perfectly centered in the seal.

I guess we'll see how this all works out when the engine gets fired up on the run stand. At least it will be in a good place to fix any leaks if need be and not wedged into an engine bay.

[narly1]

Radial scratches usually are the result of grit imbedding in the seal. If they can't be felt, there's no issue. hand polishing won't bother it unless you rub a flat spot in it by concentrating only on the scratch. Scratches that run perpendicular to rotation may cause a problem, depending on how deep or sharp edged they are.

Checking the four corners for piston height in relation to block is a great idea and one that is commonly used by good builders. Know though that there are tolerances allowed in manufacture that could make one rod (or several) longer or shorter, same with pistons. Usually not immediately noticeable. If you get different heights from one corner to another, it is a good ide to swap the piston/rod assembly from one position to another & remeasure just to verify.

I was going to use the same piston/rod assembly in all 4 corners to account for that variability. As a precaution against any damage I will check the crankshaft journal to rod bearing clearance in all 4 locations.

My main goals are ensuring that I have some deck clearance and measure same to refine my estimated compression ratio value. Doing measurements at all 4 corners and knowing where the crankshaft to block squareness is at is just a bonus.

Remember I'm still at the pre-assembly check stage. Once this all gets done the piston/rod assembly and crankshaft come back out (and get washed and cleaned AGAIN, this will be the second time) so I have easier access to the camshaft bore for installation.

When all 8 pistons go in for the last time I'll at least check that there is deck clearance in all 8 bores. (Verify everything LOL). Hell I might even measure them all again, LOL.

[33fromSD]

The way I figure it in the case of a repaired HB, the sleeve doesn't "sink" down and fill any groove worn into the HB. It just ends up creating a smooth, flat surface, arguably of slightly larger OD. I would expect that Felpro have taken the minute amount of seal stretch into account. That and I already put the damn thing on with the red Loctite it came with. Getting it off without causing any damage to the HB would be difficult.

And I'm clever enough to realize that the HB goes onto the crankshaft and it's "snout"gets slid down into the seal before the timing cover bolts get snugged down. You can't expect the "snout" of the HB to be perfectly centered in the seal.

I guess we'll see how this all works out when the engine gets fired up on the run stand. At least it will be in a good place to fix any leaks if need be and not wedged into an engine bay.

All true

[junglejim]

Well said, my brother.

[narly1]

OK so I just finished checking the deck height in all 4 corners using the same piston/rod assembly. It was hard to get repeatable measurements with my set-up but on average it looks like my deck clearance is about .014-.015" and the deck on each side is flat within .002". (Spec is .003")

Doing the math this works out to a static compression ratio of about 9.7:1 and a dynamic compression ratio of 8.5:1 which was what I had roughly planned for.

So this marks the end of the prep/inspection/mock-up phase.

The crankshaft will be coming out and both it and the block will get another washing and cleaning before the real assembly process starts, beginning with the camshaft installation.

136749

[narly1]

Baby steps tonight. Took the crankshaft out and wrapped it up in a blanket to take a nap until I'm ready for it again.

Put four shiney stainless steel cylinder head dowels into the deck surfaces.

Camshaft got washed,inspected, distributor gear cleaned with a small wire brush, cam gear bolt hole chased out with a tap, then washed it all again.

The cam bearings in the engine block got a wipe down with brake cleaner followed by a smear of assembly lube.

I then installed the cam in the block going slowly and using a long 3/8" bolt screwed into the end of it as a handle. I did it in stages, a quarter section at a time, resting the cam journals on the bearings part way in and then lubing up the next section before loading it into the engine block. All in all I found it to be a delicate operation but not that bad if you're careful and take your time.

Note that I decided to forgo washing the block off again. It's been kept covered since the last wash and I haven't been going anything "dirty" in and around it...

[narly1]

Bottom end is done. 1-piece teflon rear main seal tapped in flush after a light schmeer of high temp RTV gasket sealer on the rubber part of its lip. ARP studs to 80 ft-lbs instead of the old stock bolts to 70 ft lbs. They were probably all stretched out by now anyways. End play checked out at .005 to .007" depending on how tightly I wedged the crankshaft against the #3 bearing so let's call it .006" which is right in the middle of the spec range. A light spray of wd-40 and all wrapped up, waiting for the pistons now.

136913

[33fromSD]

Bottom end is done. 1-piece teflon rear main seal tapped in flush after a light schmeer of high temp RTV gasket sealer on the rubber part of its lip. ARP studs to 80 ft-lbs instead of the old stock bolts to 70 ft lbs. They were probably all stretched out by now anyways. End play checked out at .005 to .007" depending on how tightly I wedged the crankshaft against the #3 bearing so let's call it .006" which is right in the middle of the spec range. A light spray of wd-40 and all wrapped up, waiting for the pistons now.

136913
Very nice, awesome job. Just one word of caution...... seeing all that hard work wrapped tightly in plastic makes me cringe a bit. This time of year with weather / temperature changes it doesn't take much to trap moisture in that plastic and cause flash rust.

I know a guy in my neighborhood a few weeks ago that wrapped a block in a thick black plastic construction bag since we was going on vacation for a week, came back from vacation, opened the bag expecting to pick up where he left off and all the surfaces had flash rust on them.

you may be better off putting a sheet over it verses wrapping it tightly in plastic.... the sheet will keep dirt out too but allow it to breath.

[narly1]

Well, you know me, everything is slathered in WD-40 and assembly lube and it's not going to be that long before the wrap comes off again anyways.

After I wrapped I thought to myself this is kind of a waste as it won't be long before I'll need access to the bores for the ring end gapping process.

Up until now I've just been covering it over with old, but clean bath towels.

Hard work LOL 80 ft-lbs using a 24" breaker bar is a workout.

[narly1]

Oh man, the devil truly is in the details. I just learned that you can't run ARP's main studs or even their replacement main bolts without having your 302 block line bored with them installed

This is due to the added torque required by these studs/bolts (over stock ones) potentially distorting the block crankshaft saddles and causing bearing clearance issues. You can't even run them with a lower torque either as they may come loose.

So out come all the studs, and back in go the stock bolts. ARP confirms they are reusable

I just popped all the main caps here at lunch today. bearings look fine, no scratches, etc.

Better safe than sorry I guess.

[junglejim]

Narly1, if you can measure the main bores with a dial bore gauge while torqued to spec with the ARP studs, you may find that there is no cause for concern.
The machine shop I used to bore my block assured me that the main bores would distort using studs. Being a see it for yourself type guy, I installed the suds, torqued them to 100 pound/ft, (Cleveland block) and measured them with a dial bore gauge. I found zero distortion in 3 axes of measurement. My vertical oil clearance is .0025" and the crank turns nicely.
As an extra step, I removed the crank afterwards and examined all the bearings for tight spots (shiny spots). Everything good.
So the point is trust, but verify.
Also, if you're going to wrap anything iron or steel for storage, newspaper is your friend. It absorbs moisture. Use it, then plastic.

[narly1]

Narly1, if you can measure the main bores with a dial bore gauge while torqued to spec with the ARP studs....

Good idea in theory but I already installed the rear main seal. It's bad enough that on the 5th cap I only pulled the studs and switched back to the stock bolts, bearings sight unseen. I did this on the basis that the other 4 were fine.

Lesson for next time is that the final fasteners to be used should be sent to the machine shop along with the block and caps. Note that the rod bolts were changed out for new ones from ARP and the M/C shop sized the big ends with them installed and torqued. So at least I did one thing right LOL.

[narly1]

As an update I am in the process of researching piston ring end gap.

There seems to be so many little details like this in the engine building process.

So much to learn, but so much fun.

[narly1]

After gathering recommendations from several sources including the piston and ring manufacturers I'm going with:

.026" for the #1 (top ring)

.020" for the #2 ring

.015" for the rails of the oiler ring assembly.

Next step is to MacGuyver up a grinding rig and do some practicing on the old rings.

Any tips on how to steady the oiler rails while measuring their gap?

They're thin and flimsy as hell.

[junglejim]

For street use the second ring gap should be as much as or more than the top ring gap. The reason being that any combustion gas leaking through the gap of the top ring could pressurize the area between top and second rings, unseating the top ring from the ring land and causing it to flutter.
The oil ring rails rarely need end grinding for clearance, but I have seen it necessary. Take one of the old pistons, put an oil ring assembly on it, and use it to push the rings into the cylinder (the piston must be upside down during this). The rings on the piston will stop the piston from going any further into the bore, and the piston crown will keep the ring in the cylinder square. Then measure carefully with a feeler gauge.

[narly1]

For street use the second ring gap should be as much as or more than the top ring gap.

Good morning, I had a detailed discussion elsewhere regarding the #2 gap. So I've already seen the reasons for going with a "larger than #1" gap. The .020" I posted earlier figure came straight from Hastings. Silv-O-Lite said .016". The only thing I could get reasonable agreement on from all 3 sources were the #1 and oiler ring gaps.

For the #2, I had values suggested to me ranging from #1 gap + .002" (so ~.026-.028") all they way out to .040"!

What am I supposed to use? LOL

And thanks for the tip on using an old piston to square up the rings in the bore for gap measurement. I already knew that and it works great for the #1 & #2 rings. I was just hoping for a better solution for the oiler rails. I guess I'll just have to be real delicate with the feeler gauge and not disturb them.

[narly1]

I think I'm going to stick with the gaps I posted and I'll tell you why.

First see the attached chart from Hastings. Observe that in the case of standard cast pistons the gap factor for the #2 ring is greater than the #1
ring gap factor. It's only when you switch to hypereutectic pistons (which is what I have) that the situation reverses.

The #1 ring gap factor is huge by comparison to the one for cast pistons. From everything I've read this is because of the piston metallurgy and design (#1 ring land is closer to the top of the piston 221" vs .269 for the old stock one). Both contribute to there being a lot more heat in and around the top of the piston. So the top gap needs to be disproportionally large relative to the #2 gap.

That and the fact that I'm not building a high revving race engine where pressure build-up between the rings is a greater concern than it is in more of a street engine.



137193

[narly1]

I'm back!

Between fall clean-up duties and a long overdue Sunday drive & date with Mrs. Narly1 not much time for the engine project.

So over the last few days I made up this little jig which uses my Dremel tool to file the rings. It works great!

137592

I used one of the old pistons with 1 ring left on it as a tool to square up the new rings in the cylinder bores for measurement.

As found the #1 (top) rings were averaging .018"-.019" which is too tight for my application.

I still have to do the #2 rings, hoping to finish that off later tonight.

On the subject of how to measure the gap on those flimsy oiler rails, I had a moment of genius, LOL.

I used one of the old top rings as a "backer" and then pressed the oiler rails down against that, making sure that the gaps lined up.
If you look close you can see the stacked gaps in this next picture:

137593

Gaps on the rails ranged between .032 " and .035" well above the .015" minimum recommended by Hastings.

Once all the filing is done each set of rings gets deburred, cleaned, and packed away in a labelled zip loc bag, ready for installation on its respective piston.

[narly1]

Made some good progress over the past couple of days.

I managed to get 4 pistons installed yesterday before high winds knocked out the power here.

One more done today at lunch, and the other 3 this evening.

Rod to crankshaft journal side clearances (spec is .010" to .020"):

1/5: .014"

2/6: .013"

3/7: .013"

4/8: .015"

I didn't catch the breakout torque, but rotating torque is about 16.5 ft-lbs. Note this is spinning just the crankshaft and pistons, the timing chain has not been installed yet. Bores lubed with 10W30, assembly lube on everything else. Rear main seal installed.

138171

[narly1]

Looking for comments on what I'm seeing for the rotating torque.

I think I'm good but appreciate any feedback that you may have...

[33fromSD]

To answer your question in the subject line ....no, a basic 302 is not too little motor for the 33 HR.

I go-karted mine yesterday (it was a blast) and I have a plain-Jane 302 with maybe 260 HP and the car is soooo light that the arsh-end will come around with little or no effort both from a stop or getting on it. I can't even imaging how fun/scary these things would be with an LS3, Coyote 5.0, or some other powerful engine.

Enjoy your build.

[narly1]

To answer your question in the subject line ...Enjoy your build.

Thanks Jim for the encouragement. I am enjoying my build. So much to learn and consider when building up an engine. It sure is good to have something on the go during this COVID thing.

Right now I'm stuck at the timing set installation. Using a Cloyes 9-3138 double roller set.

The dowel pin that drives the cam gear got stuck before fully bottoming out in my nice new cam, and messed up the cam bolt washer. Getting that out was a PITA let me tell you.
So now I'm waiting on new ARP cam bolt, drive dowel pins and harmonic balancer timing sticker to turn up.

The garage has never been cleaner, if you know what I mean, LOL.

And sorry for not posting on your build thread, I haven't been because don't think that I have that much to offer, seeing as I don't not have the actual kit yet.

[33fromSD]

Thanks Jim for the encouragement. I am enjoying my build. So much to learn and consider when building up an engine. It sure is good to have something on the go during this COVID thing.

Right now I'm stuck at the timing set installation. Using a Cloyes 9-3138 double roller set.

The dowel pin that drives the cam gear got stuck before fully bottoming out in my nice new cam, and messed up the cam bolt washer. Getting that out was a PITA let me tell you.
So now I'm waiting on new ARP cam bolt, drive dowel pins and harmonic balancer timing sticker to turn up.

The garage has never been cleaner, if you know what I mean, LOL.

And sorry for not posting on your build thread, I haven't been because don't think that I have that much to offer, seeing as I don't not have the actual kit yet.

No worries at all...

[narly1]

OK so new 1.5" dowel pin came today and it drops right into the camshaft without any force at all. It's a bit on the long side but at least the good news is that I can easily take it out and grind it down a bit without introducing any metal filings into my nice clean engine build.

[narly1]

After the false start due to the jammed dowel pin issue, the timing set is finally installed.

Tried my hand at degreeing a cam for the first time. Found out that when using the "factory settings" keyway on the crankshaft gear, that due to the 4 degrees of timing advance ground into the cam that the intake centre line was only 106 degrees instead of 110 degrees spec'd.

So had to use the retard keyway to get it back to 110 degrees. Did a check of the valve opening and closing events for the first pair of intake and exhaust lobes, using my dial indicator on top of two lifters riding on them. Within the accuracy of my sophomoric degreeing set-up values seem about right.

Replaced the cam bolt with a new ARP one. Blue Loctite and torqued to 45 ft-lbs.

Next steps timing cover and harmonic balancer installation.

138378

[narly1]

I'm surprised nobody noticed that the cam bolt and washer are missing in the above photo. It was taken previously before I put them in. Yes the new bolt came with a new washer which partially covers the hole and retains the dowel pin.

As an aside, the reason I changed the bolt/washer is that when the previous dowel pin was sticking up above the cam gear face it damaged the original washer.

This damage occurred when I tried to tighten down the bolt without realizing that the dowel pin was stuck.

[narly1]

Timing cover, water pump and harmonic balancer all mocked up and waiting for final installation. Some of the bolts from the new stainless steel hardware kit I bought were the wrong lengths. So trips to TSC and Spaenaur and we're good to go now. Waiting on a new water pump to backing plate gasket (accidentally tore the one that came with the water pump) and a timing pointer (which BTW mounts via 2 of the timing cover mounting bolts that you can't get in and out once the harmonic balancer is on) to show up.

The idea being that you install the harmonic balancer with the timing cover slightly loose so that the timing cover to crankshaft seal nicely locates the two parts. This helps to prevent the seal from wearing out prematurely due to misalignment of the two parts.

Also I read somewhere that you shouldn't use the harmonic balancer bolt to drive the HB onto the crank snout. There is a special tool you can buy for the job but once again necessity is the mother of invention.

The tool uses a bearing between the head of the bolt and the crank face to reduce the friction during tightening and thus minimizing the wear on the crankshaft's internal threads. So looking at this I remembered that I had a similar looking bearing kicking around from when I fixed my wheelbarrow (see picture). Turns out it's a near perfect fit so I'll just use it along with the old HB mounting bolt to drive the HB home.

138588138589

[narly1]

138745

Parts came today so final assembly of timing cover, water pump and harmonic balancer completed tonight.

As a side note I didn't end up needing to use the old bolt & bearing to install the harmonic balancer.

Following a tip I saw online I warmed up the harmonic balancer in a pot of boiling water. It slipped all the way in and bottomed out on the crankshaft snout with only the lightest bit of hand pressure.

[narly1]

139300

Oil pump and pick-up tube installation.

Pump is a blueprinted, standard volume and pressure Melling M68 from Precision Oil Pumps. ARP HD pump shaft.

Pump to block mounting bolts torqued to 25 ft-lbs and pick-up to pump bolts at 20 ft-lbs. Nut on main cap 25 ft-lbs. Not taking any chance on any of these coming loose.

I then installed the oil pan with the gasket I will be using, with a few bolts installed and lightly tightened. Using the Playdough clearance checking method., I am finding that the pick-up is quite high up off the bottom of the pan, ~. 85".

In addition it's not level/parallel to the block or the pan bottom side-to-side.


So that's enough for one night. Tomorrow night I will put something in between the pick-up and the block to act as a shield so I can heat the pick-up tube in-situ with a torch and bend it for a tighter clearance. Aiming for 1/2"...

[narly1]

So before I go wild with the torches I figured I would fit to old stock pick-up and see what the clearance was like. Still the same at about .85" so the pan must be to blame. Found that by slipping washers under the tab that mounts the pick-up to the mains cap I was able to change the height such that the clearance is now .5". (It's actually about .45 to .6" across the width but close enough.)

[narly1]

So at a bit of a standstill at the moment. Mrs. Narly1 got laid off from work which leaves me to keep the ship afloat until she's working again.

This year's Christmas bonus got partly put towards the niceties of the holiday and paying off the balance on my truck loan. Logic being that the extra $360/month that was going towards the loan will probably come in handy in the next few months.

So the next items are big ticket, heads and efi system, these may have to wait a bit...

In the meantime I did use some of the bonus to pay for a new set of rocker arms.

So not having anything to do here today, I revisited timing pointer/harmonic balancer set-up. I double checked my el cheapo degreeing wheel and sure enough it has 3 holes at 120 degrees apart that line u with the pulley bolt holes on the balancer. So I was able to determine "true" TDC using the degreeing wheel method and set the 0 degree pointer to line up with the mark on the balancer.

[33fromSD]

So at a bit of a standstill at the moment. Mrs. Narly1 got laid off from work which leaves me to keep the ship afloat until she's working again.

This year's Christmas bonus got partly put towards the niceties of the holiday and paying off the balance on my truck loan. Logic being that the extra $360/month that was going towards the loan will probably come in handy in the next few months.

So the next items are big ticket, heads and efi system, these may have to wait a bit...

In the meantime I did use of the bonus to pay for a new set of rocker arms.

So not having anything to do here today, I revisited timing pointer/harmonic balancer set-up. I double checked my el cheapo degreeing wheel and sure enough it has 3 holes at 120 degrees apart that line u with the pulley bolt holes on the balancer. So I was able to determine "true" TDC using the degreeing wheel method and set the 0 degree pointer to line up with the mark on the balancer.


Sorry to hear to about your wife's layoff....never a fun time in normal circumstances and this year and been anything but normal. Hopefully your wife finds something soon and you can get back to the engine.

Lots of people impacted this past year, I'm starting to see more and more newer cars for sale in parking lots and more houses for sale. Very sad.

[narly1]

So glad that we decided on the modest side when we bought our house back in the late 80's and structured things so that we could get by on only one salary.

With both of us in sales it was the right thing to do. There have been several stretches over the years where one of us was out of work and we've always survived.

December was an amazing month for me, I ended up at about 300% of my sales target for the month. So looking good going into the new year. Hopefully Mrs. Narly will be back to work by the time the commission cheques start rolling in. Daddy needs car parts LOL.

[narly1]

So these just turned up today;)

139923

[cv2065]

It's an unalienable right: life, liberty, and the pursuit of horsepower. Get as much as you can afford and use your right foot and common sense to modulate it. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Would Carroll use a stock 302 or would he go for some heat?

Right!!

[narly1]

It's taken a bunch of wheeling and dealing and letting go of un-needed/unused things and projects that I'll never get to but managed to scrape together enough surplus funds to pull the trigger on these over the weekend:

141398

[TBull]

Very Nice. I love my AFR's. What did you get? 185 or 195?

[narly1]

Very Nice. I love my AFR's. What did you get? 185 or 195?

Neither. 165's. This is a very mild build, but should still yield out about 350 hp.

[narly1]

So while I'm waiting for the heads to turn up I'd like to form a plan as far as pre-install checks of them go.

Here's what I've come up with so far:

1. Close visual inspection out of the box for any damage. Check mounting surface flatness using a straightedge with a light behind it to see if there is any light peeking through indicating an obvious low spot. Chase and clean threaded holes. Deburr edges if/as necessary.
2. Remove valve springs one by one and check valve stem to guide clearance for smooth but not tight (grabby) or sloppy fit. Measure and record spring installed heights. Reinstall.
3. Flip heads upside down (chambers up). Fill combustion chambers with rubbing alcohol and check for leakage by blowing air into int/exh ports, watching for bubbles, to confirm that the valve/seat sealing is good.
4. Using recorded spring installed heights do coil bind calculations as per https://help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4709/~/valve-spring-coil-bind?fbclid=IwAR1PgwaIOAHVOpwrfjx5P0-5uC1VEAvcymcPuoV_zKxpG-hJHQE1nCdo9IM.
5. Check that rocker studs are torqued to their correct values.
6. Thorough wash/clean/dry, ready for install.

[33fromSD]

So while I'm waiting for the heads to turn up I'd like to form a plan as far as pre-install checks of them go.

Here's what I've come up with so far:

1. Close visual inspection out of the box for any damage. Check mounting surface flatness using a straightedge with a light behind it to see if there is any light peeking through indicating an obvious low spot.
2. Remove valve springs one by one and check valve stem to guide clearance for smooth but not tight (grabby) or sloppy fit. Measure and record spring installed heights. Reinstall.
3. Flip heads upside down (chambers up) Fill combustion chambers with rubbing alcohol and check for leakage over time. (20 minutes) to confirm that valve/seat sealing is good.
4. Using recorded spring installed heights do coil bind calculations as per https://help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4709/~/valve-spring-coil-bind?fbclid=IwAR1PgwaIOAHVOpwrfjx5P0-5uC1VEAvcymcPuoV_zKxpG-hJHQE1nCdo9IM.
5. Check that rocker studs are torqued to their correct values.
6. Thorough wash/clean/dry, ready for install.

Boy, I don't know, if I'm paying that much for aluminum heads I would sure hope all this is already done by the manufacturer.. :)

[narly1]

Boy, I don't know, if I'm paying that much for aluminum heads I would sure hope all this is already done by the manufacturer.. :)
That perspective has crossed my mind too.

[TxMike64]

Boy, I don't know, if I'm paying that much for aluminum heads I would sure hope all this is already done by the manufacturer.. :)


That perspective has crossed my mind too.

Yeah.... but some of us like the process. And there's nothing like doing it yourself for peace of mind, even if it's just "for the seeing".

I've been on a somewhat similar path refreshing a 5.0 like narly1 and have been slowly working on it for almost a year now. I'm in no big hurry and I'm enjoying it!
I mean if the end product was the goal why would we be building a car? If we just wanted the car it'd be better to just go buy one...

[33fromSD]

Yeah.... but some of us like the process. And there's nothing like doing it yourself for peace of mind, even if it's just "for the seeing".

I've been on a somewhat similar path refreshing a 5.0 like narly1 and have been slowly working on it for almost a year now. I'm in no big hurry and I'm enjoying it!
I mean if the end product was the goal why would we be building a car? If we just wanted the car it'd be better to just go buy one...

Don't get wrong, I love seeing how stuff goes together too and the process involved of getting there, but when it comes to things like aluminum heads with tolerances / clearances, my old school intuition kicks in and it falls into the category of if it ain't broke don't fix it, and then my conscious kicks in (a miniature version of my wife sitting on my shoulder) and tells me I paid a s**t load of money for them to be professionally built, so I don't want to chance me screwing something up.

I figure if it bought as an assembly, leave it alone, otherwise if I want to take it apart, why didn't I just order all the various parts and do it from scratch myself.

just me, not saying there is a right or wrong answer.

[narly1]

The AFR heads have a great reputation of being correctly manufactured and assembled right out of the box. But like many things they are mass-produced so there is always some chance of something being not right.

My perspective is with all the time and dollars I've invested so far, why not double check them if it's not too hard to do. Other than removing/measuring the springs and checking the valve "feel", all the other checks can be done with simple tools and the heads intact.

[junglejim]

The AFR heads have a great reputation of being correctly manufactured and assembled right out of the box. But like many things they are mass-produced so there is always some chance of something being not right.

My perspective is with all the time and dollars I've invested so far, why not double check them if it's not too hard to do. Other than removing/measuring the springs and checking the valve "feel", all the other checks can be done with simple tools and the heads intact.
Absolutely! One would like to think that his hard earned dollars are well spent, and AFR products are well respected for a good reason, but as the saying goes, trust but verify.
narly1, I'd say you're on the right track with your inspection procedure, as far as filling the chamber with liquid and such. You never know when something can slip by even the best quality control, and the burden is on the end user.
I bought CHI heads and being, as you are, careful (suspicious), I had them shipped unassembled, so I would have that peace of mind. I found them to be exceptional in quality, as well as the Ferrea valves and Comp Cams springs that came with them. I vacuum tested the ports with the valves unsprung and they pulled 100 percent. I marked the seats with a sharpie and spun the valves on the seats and got a nice mark on the valve faces right where i expected them to be. The installed height on EVERY valve was within 3 thousandths of where they should have been. Point is, quality products should yield quality results, and I would expect your AFR heads will be the same, but you can't replace the peace of mind that comes from seeing it for yourself. Plus you can in clear conscience recommend these products to others.

[narly1]

I'd say you're on the right track with your inspection procedure......

Thanks Jim for confirming my thinking and such.

I figure that if my checks are for the most part "non-invasive" and easy to do, why not do them? The other reason for checking that I forgot to include in my justification was the possibility of shipping damage.

And spare time is in good supply right now, LOL.

I noticed that Summit has them back in stock now so I hope my local supplier here in Canada will be getting theirs in soon as well. I can hardly wait!

Earl

[narly1]

I should also mention that I found another test for checking valve seating where you still fill the combustion chamber with fluid, but then you take an air hose and blow air up into the intake/exhaust ports and observe for leakage (air bubbles) around the valve seats.

[narly1]

I'm pleased to announce that Mrs. Narly1 started a new job on Monday so the engine build project is officially restarted. Not that it ever stopped LOL, I'm still waiting for the new heads to turn up.

In the meantime I celebrated the good news by purchasing a few other things I will need: throttle/kickdown cable bracket, Thermostat, thermostat housing/filler neck, spark plugs (2 sets) and an oil pressure sender extension. They are not scheduled to be delivered until 3rd week of March. COVID seems to be extending the lead-time on everything these days!

[HotrodMike]

Yeah.... but some of us like the process. And there's nothing like doing it yourself for peace of mind, even if it's just "for the seeing".

I've been on a somewhat similar path refreshing a 5.0 like narly1 and have been slowly working on it for almost a year now. I'm in no big hurry and I'm enjoying it!
I mean if the end product was the goal why would we be building a car? If we just wanted the car it'd be better to just go buy one...

I agree with all of you, I have been preparing my drivetrain for the arrival of my Stage 1 kit in July. This is one of those rare moments in life when both the journey and the destination are rewarding...

[narly1]

So the delivery of my heads continues to drag out, I've been told that they should be delivered to me on the 22nd.

So in the meantime I decided to order this pulley and bracket set from CVF:

144340

As a side note I found these guy's telephone customer support to be nothing less than fantastic....they definitely earned my business because of it.

[HVACMAN]

So the delivery of my heads continues to drag out, I've been told that they should be delivered to me on the 22nd.

So in the meantime I decided to order this pulley and bracket set from CVF:

144340

As a side note I found these guy's telephone customer support to be nothing less than fantastic....they definitely earned my business because of it.

I used them for my LS and had a compressor making noise at startup. One phone call and I had a new compressor in a couple of days. Awesome customer service.

[Brastic]

I am running 195 in my 302. Mainly because this is the vehicle that I put the most miles on. If it were only a weekend, drive fast and put away, maybe I would go lower. Since I like to put miles on the car, I want to be in closed loop.

[narly1]

Dang, with COVID lead times being what they are on things these days I thought I should look into this:

144683

Sure enough delivery is currently being quoted as mid to late June.

So better safe than sorry I placed my order this afternoon....

[narly1]

Any suggestions/preferences as to a fuel pump and regulator to use with the ProFlo4 EFI?

The reason I ask is that the Edelbrock-reccommended 3604 system (which seems pricey IMO) is backordered into late June.

So there's that and I'm also thinking I won't use everything supplied in the "kit" when I finally get around to installing it on the car.

So far I've been looking at Walbro pump model GSL392BX and the Earl's Performance regulator model 12848ERL (How can I resist with a name like that....looks to me like all regulators of this style are just brand-labelled clones anyways, LOL).

[narly1]

Finally!

145096

[narly1]

Pre-install inspection of the cylinder heads started tonight.

I checked the valve to seat (head) sealing by filling the combustion chambers one at a time with soapy water and then blowing compressed air up into the intake and exhaust ports.

Zero bubbles which is good thing.

As a side note I tried blowing some air in around the sparkplug which was only tightened in loosely by hand and sure enough some bubbles...so the technique works.

[narly1]

Checking and double checking.

Went through this once before but thought I should post it up here for posterity.

Comp specify their pn# 986-16 springs for use with their pn# 35-349-8 (XE264HR-14 grind) cam. These are 322 lbs/in springs.

The springs as supplied with my AFR1399 are their pn# 8017. These are 360 lbs/in springs. So I'm good.

I might lose a bit of bottom end torque but shouldn't have any worries about high RPM valve float....even though I'll probably never rev that high anyways.

[narly1]

Yesterday afternoon. and this morning's exercise is checking piston to valve clearance.

Disassembled a couple of the lifters I will be using, took out the springs and added washers to essentially convert them into solid lifters. I found that it took 3 flat washers/lifter to make the top piece butt tight up against the wire clip.

I then went rummaging through my collection of springs and found a nice light one (why couldn't I find 2 the same, LOL).

Getting the supplied valve springs off turned into more work than I planned. My homemade compressor ended up being useless so ended up borrowing one. Thankyou Facebook for connecting me with a local lender almost immediately.

I found that the keepers were firmly wedged in the retainers, with a block of soft wood against the valve face, a light tap on the retainer face got them free.

So installed a couple of the new rockers that I bought back at Christmas time along with the stock pushrods that I saved from when I tore the engine down.

I then loaded the head onto the block and put a few bolts in (just slightly more than hand tight, not torqued) to hold it down.

Set everything at zero lash and used a dial indicator to find the position where the valve lift was the highest and thus the valves widest open. Set the indicator to read zero at this point. From there I pushed the rocker down by hand until the valves bottomed out in the reliefs in the piston top.

Measured values were .076" exhaust and and .075" intake. Note that these were taken without a head gasket installed. The AFR recommended Fel-pro 10111 has a compressed thickness of .041" so the clearances will be more like .117" and .116" respectively.

Next step is to re-install the actual springs and re-check the clearances using the Play-dough method.

145276

[narly1]

Using the Play-dough method I measured clearances of .131" and .116" So I think I'm good!

[narly1]

So now we wait for a new adjustable pushrod to arrive so I can check what length I need.

Turns out the one I have is far too long for the job.

[johnnybgoode]

Nice! What cam are you running with the AFR 165's? Scott (I'm in Ottawa BTW)

[narly1]

Comp XE264HR-14. Nothing crazy. This is my first car engine build. Ever.

[cv2065]

Just watch for the little things. My second build was a Chevy 383. Took my time building it and performed all of the clearances myself. Put it on the run stand, fired up and sounded awesome. Pulled the pan and had metal shavings in it. I was like...WTH? Blew it all back apart, but this time, took the block to the machine shop to be cleaned, and told them to set all of my bearing clearances. Got it rebuilt...placed back on the stand. Fired up and sounded awesome. Pulled the oil pan and it had metal shavings in it. I was like...WTH x2!!. Took the shavings up to the machine shop. Owner says..."That ain't bearing"..."Pull your timing cover"...Got home, and pulled the cover. Sure enough, the chain was gouging the cover. Little did I know that when I was ordering parts, the timing cover thickness changed and I had the wrong one. Went all back together again and it was a champ. $800 mistake. Just the little things that sometimes you take for granted...

[narly1]

Thanks for the hint on the timing chain/cover. I know for a fact that's one issue I don't have. The 302 cam is retained by a plate so it can't move very far in or out, and there's a spec for that clearance which I checked. The timing gear that goes on the end of the cam has a proud feature to set it out from the retainer, etc., so it should never touch anything on the back side. On the front side there is tons of room for a mechanical fuel pump eccentric which I deleted.

For sure the devil is in the details, especially when you're piecing together a project with parts supplied by different manufacturers. Not all combinations play well together.

[narly1]

On the subject of determining pushrod length to match the correct rocker geometry, I'm planning on using this method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5is9BsH5OU&t=1s

I have one question:

Previously for piston to valve clearance checking purposes I converted two of the existing hydraulic lifters into solid ones. I did this by using washers to locate the top internal moving part of the lifter (sorry not sure what it's called exactly) against the bottom of the retainer wire/clip piece.

Should I use the lifters in this condition for the geometry check/set-up or change them back to original first?

[johnnybgoode]

I've always seen it done using the sharpie method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmzbHgVY3cI

I'd leave it the same way you were set up to check PTV clearance myself since you want to make sure the lifter is in it's fully pumped up position. Scott

[narly1]

I've always seen it done using the sharpie method.

I think where the sharpie method really helps is when you are trying to optimally "clock" the rocker in relation to the top of the valve stem.

[narly1]

OK new pushrod length checking tool arrived yesterday (no holidays for Amazon.ca I guess.).

I've decided to wait until I have the head gaskets in place before doing this next step.

I ordered a pair from my local Carquest on Thursday, they're supposed to be here on Monday.

So in the meantime I went shopping for more bits to make up my engine stand and picked up these stock headers for $50:

145570

[narly1]

This is the contact pattern after setting up the rocker geometry using the previously referenced method followed by the sharpie technique as a double check:

145685

Beginner's luck or predictable beginner results based on following expert technique to the letter? I choose the latter...

The pieces of Gorilla tape are holding an Allen key flat on top of the spring retainer in order to establish/indicate the 90 degree angle plane relative to the valve stem.

[narly1]

In the FFR spirit of finding other things to work on due to POL, I decided to install the oil pressure extension and sender, CVF pulley set, and alternator while I wait for pushrods to turn up. The pulley set and alternator exercise was more of a mock-up, but at least it's keeping my eagerness in check. Other than the one alternator bolt being 1/2" too short everything fitted and lined up perfectly.

It's starting to look more like a complete engine.

145936

[33fromSD]

In the FFR spirit of finding other things to work on due to POL, I decided to install the oil pressure extension and sender, CVF pulley set, and alternator while I wait for pushrods to turn up. The pulley set and alternator exercise was more of a mock-up, but at least it's keeping my eagerness in check. Other than the one alternator bolt being 1/2" too short everything fitted and lined up perfectly.

It's starting to look more like a complete engine.

145936

Looks good; what are you waiting on from FFR for the engine?

[narly1]

Thanks. The CVF stuff is very good for the price.

My POL is with Edelbrock/Summit, not FFR LOL, but it's the same sort of situation. The EFI won't be shipping until late June so now I'm having to look for other things to do, even if they are out of sequence, just to keep pushing forward.

COVID has affected lead times on everything it seems.

I'm trying to be optimistic by looking at these delays as project / supply chain management training for when the kit comes, LOL.

[33fromSD]

Thanks. The CVF stuff is very good for the price.

My POL is with Edelbrock/Summit, not FFR LOL, but it's the same sort of situation. The EFI won't be shipping until late June so now I'm having to look for other things to do, even if they are out of sequence, just to keep pushing forward.

COVID has affected lead times on everything it seems.

I'm trying to be optimistic by looking at these delays as project / supply chain management training for when the kit comes, LOL.

Ah...I got it, I just saw the comment about the "In the FFR Spirit" and thought it was something on the engine FFR was supplying.

Jim

[narly1]

It's my birthday next Friday and I asked for pushrods!

[narly1]

It's my birthday next Friday and I asked for pushrods!

Sigh, even these are on backorder now...looking at early to mid June....

[narly1]

Getting desperate for things to do LOL. This oil pan that I picked up off of Kijiji was missing paint in a few spots and I had some engine enamel left over so...

146029

[johnnybgoode]

Sigh, even these are on backorder now...looking at early to mid June....

Wow. Is that from Summit? Really sucks to have to wait that long. I feel your pain in how tough it is to get parts in Canada. Scott

[narly1]

Yes, Summit. Funny thing is that the product page said 3 in stock but then when I went to place an order....backordered.

[narly1]

Found several eBay sellers who have the pushrods I need in stock. So cancelled my order with Summit. As soon as I get confirmation from them I place an order with one of the other guys. 7 weeks is too long to wait just for pushrods.

Either that or my cancellation will "motivate" them to free-up the ones only available for US customers to us Canadians.

[Mike DiGiorgio]

i really don't think so. and if you feel the need for an equally economical but more potent 302, look into a later explorer engine that left the factory with gt40 heads.

[narly1]

i really don't think so. and if you feel the need for an equally economical but more potent 302, look into a later explorer engine that left the factory with gt40 heads.

It's a little too late for that now, LOL.

[narly1]

As an afterthought I started researching what I would need in terms of a PCV valve for my build. I learned that PCV valves are not a one size fits all solution. They are all different in terms of their flow characteristics and vacuum transition points.

Found this fiendishly clever adjustable and rebuildable gem:

146263

http://mewagner.com/?p=444

I'm surprised that there isn't more discussion about this solution out there on the www.

IMO, using anything else is just guessing. I wonder how many of the low vacuum and oil leaking/venting issues we've seen posted here and elsewhere could be resolved with this valve.

Here's a good article on the subject and product: http://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ315_34-44.pdf

[Mike DiGiorgio]

It's a little too late for that now, LOL.

i just back-read and saw you had a set of AFR heads on order, which is awesome. AFR makes a great product

however i wonder about your choice with the pro-flow efi. The largest advantage to a multi-port system is either for it to be sequential. thus reducing fuel consumption at low loads. Or to use a dry manifold ( manifold that does not have fuel traveling though it) this allows the intake manifold to loose a lot of design constraints thus allowing better runner design. . using a wet intake manifold on a batch fire multi-port system will perform equally to a throttle body system. just with more complication. Have you already ordering the proflow system?

[narly1]

I already have the AFR's and I'm just waiting on the pushrods to arrive so I can finish the head installation process.

And yes the PF4 is already on order. One other advantage I forgot to mention is that it's a "turn-key" solution with the injectors, intake and distributor all included.

As a side note I just spoke with Gene at M/E Wagner and ordered the PCV valve. Highly recommend!!

[narly1]

My pushrods arrived Thursday afternoon. You would think they would be immaculate from the factory, but no.

This is the aftermath. Pipe cleaners soaked in WD-40 for first pass, brake cleaner for the second pass.

The external surfaces also got a wipe down with WD-40 there were brown stains on the rag I used for that.

Once done everything got a coating of 10W30.

146878

[narly1]

It's hard to tell by the photo but I made some good progress today.

Started off by fixing an alignment issue with the serpentine belt and shortening down one of the alternator bracket bolts that goes through the water pump, timing cover and into the block. (I hate bolts that are too long with exposed threads sticking out of the back side of the block.)

I then moved on to temporarily installing 2 of the new pushrods. The travel pattern on the valve tips (Sharpie method) was almost identical to what I saw previously with the checker rod, so good to go there.

I then re-checked the piston to valve clearance and we're still good there as well. (In theory nothing should have changed but now I know for sure.

I changed out the checker springs and put the regular ones back on. Again I checked the valve sealing using the chamber filled with soapy liquid/blow air through ports technique and no bubbles. Good to go.

Converted the 2 lifters that I had made into "solid" ones back to their stock configuration. Dunked them in 10W30 while they were all apart. The other 14 I had sitting in oil overnight. The lifters were then loaded into the block with lots more oil and assembly lube on the top cups and rollers.

I oriented the side vent holes in all the lifters so that they are facing inward.

The dog bones and spider were then installed. The spider bolts got tightened down. I couldn't find a torque spec for those 2 bolts so just went with "good and snug", LOL

A smear of 10W30 in each bore, head gaskets installed taking care to make sure that the "front" lettering was to the front, and then on with the heads.

All of the ARP head bolts and reducer bushings got a wash in Varsol followed by a rinse with brake cleaner.

Permatex 59206 sealant on all the threads and ARP lube under the bolt heads where they ride on the bushings.

All bolts torqued to 70 ft-lbs in 4 successive steps: 20, 40, 60 and then finally 70 ft-lbs, in the Ford prescribed pattern, starting in the center and working outwards.

I still have to install/torque/align the rocker studs and pushrod guides but first I have to get more thread sealant. I only had just enough for the head bolts.

After that I'll install the rockers. I'm going to start with a 1/2 turn (which is ~ .025") of pre-load beyond zero lash and see how that works. (Note that these are just the stock lifters which I'm re-using after being disassembled and a thoroughly cleaned.

146894

[johnnybgoode]

It's hard to tell by the photo but I made some good progress today.

Started off by fixing an alignment issue with the serpentine belt and shortening down one of the alternator bracket bolts that goes through the water pump, timing cover and into the block. (I hate bolts that are too long with exposed threads sticking out of the back side of the block.)

I then moved on to temporarily installing 2 of the new pushrods. The travel pattern on the valve tips (Sharpie method) was almost identical to what I saw previously with the checker rod, so good to go there.

I then re-checked the piston to valve clearance and we're still good there as well. (In theory nothing should have changed but now I know for sure.

I changed out the checker springs and put the regular ones back on. Again I checked the valve sealing using the chamber filled with soapy liquid/blow air through ports technique and no bubbles. Good to go.

Converted the 2 lifters that I had made into "solid" ones back to their stock configuration. Dunked them in 10W30 while they were all apart. The other 14 I had sitting in oil overnight. The lifters were then loaded into the block with lots more oil and assembly lube on the top cups and rollers.

I oriented the side vent holes in all the lifters so that they are facing inward.

The dog bones and spider were then installed. The spider bolts got tightened down. I couldn't find a torque spec for those 2 bolts so just went with "good and snug", LOL

A smear of 10W30 in each bore, head gaskets installed taking care to make sure that the "front" lettering was to the front, and then on with the heads.

All of the ARP head bolts and reducer bushings got a wash in Varsol followed by a rinse with brake cleaner.

Permatex 59206 sealant on all the threads and ARP lube under the bolt heads where they ride on the bushings.

All bolts torqued to 70 ft-lbs in 4 successive steps: 20, 40, 60 and then finally 70 ft-lbs, in the Ford prescribed pattern, starting in the center and working outwards.

I still have to install/torque/align the rocker studs and pushrod guides but first I have to get more thread sealant. I only had just enough for the head bolts.

After that I'll install the rockers. I'm going to start with a 1/2 turn (which is ~ .025") of pre-load beyond zero lash and see how that works. (Note that these are just the stock lifters which I'm re-using after being disassembled and a thoroughly cleaned.

146894

Looks good! Where were you able to source your push rods from? Scott

[33fromSD]

Hey Narly1.....

Word of caution on your 302. I have 302 as well and I needed to swing my alternator up in order to clear the frame....I think you'll need to do the same.

Jim

146943 146944

[narly1]

Hey Narly1.....

Word of caution on your 302. I have 302 as well and I needed to swing my alternator up in order to clear the frame....I think you'll need to do the same.

Jim



Hey Jim,

Thanks for the heads up!

This is what my set-up looks like if I rotate the alternator clockwise on it's pivot bolt and relocate the tensioning turnbuckle.

All I'll need is one extra spacer from CVF, a couple of additional fasteners, and a longer belt.

146950

[narly1]

Looks good! Where were you able to source your push rods from? Scott

I found them on eBay. They were about $10-$15 more than Summit but I wanted to keep working.

[33fromSD]

Hey Jim,

Thanks for the heads up!

This is what my set-up looks like if I rotate the alternator clockwise on it's pivot bolt and relocate the tensioning turnbuckle.

All I'll need is one extra spacer from CVF, a couple of additional fasteners, and a longer belt.

146950

Looks like you'll also either need a longer turn buckle adjusting rod since you'll want the alternator out further than you think, otherwise you'll never get the lower heater hose on the lower straight inlet nipple on the water pump, or you'll need to swap the current nipple for a right angle one (mine was pressed in so I needed to add a 5/8" right angle fitting).

Jim

[narly1]

Looks like you'll also either need a longer turn buckle adjusting rod since you'll want the alternator out further than you think, otherwise you'll never get the lower heater hose on the lower straight inlet nipple on the water pump, or you'll need to swap the current nipple for a right angle one (mine was pressed in so I needed to add a 5/8" right angle fitting).

Jim

Re the clearance between the heater hose and the alternator, ya I was looking at that. The turnbuckle length should be long enough. I may need to put a 45 degree street elbow into the water pump to make sure the hose doesn't rub up against the underside of the alternator though.

[narly1]

All I will say here is that CVF is a class act.

I told them about having to high vs low mount the alternator and they are sending me the extra bits of hardware needed to do the job for NOTHING!

I didn't even have to cover the shipping.:)

[HVACMAN]

You are right about CVF. I had an a/c compressor making noise on start up. I made a call to CVF and two days later a new compressor arrived. No charge.

[33fromSD]

Yup...when I hd to flip my alternator to the higher position, even though my engine came from BP with the CVF kit already installed CVF sent me the longer turn buckle & belt for no charge. I felt kind of bad since I didn't directly buy the original kit from them. I just explained my situation, they verified I bought the engine from BP (who bought the CVF it) and came back and said no problem, we'll take care of you.

Good guys / great customer service. Hard to find in this day and age.

Although, I have to throw out huge kudos for FFR too, I have never had any issues with getting replacement parts, and their responsiveness has been nothing short of awesome, even through the pandemic. I actually just got a one-off set of striker plates from FFR which we spent a few cycles back and forth after a couple sets of stock plate were not fitting.

Jim

[narly1]

One down and 7 to go or two down and 14 to go depending on your perspective LOL. Found the hardest part to be getting the push rod guide plates locked down in positions that best centered the rocker rollers on the tops of the valve stems (The clearance between the guide plates and the push rods allows them to wiggle a little bit, causing the rockers to rotate slightly on their mounting studs.)

147076

Mental note to self to measure rocker arm to valve spring clearance, minimum is .015".

[narly1]

Pushrods and rockers all installed. Now we wait for the EFI system and a few other remaining parts to turn up.

Sharp eyes may also notice a 45 degree street elbow installed into the water pump along with the stock straight barb fitting. This will allow the heater hose to clear the alternator in it's new high mounted position.

147126

[narly1]

Found this valve lash/preload setting tutorial on line and thought I would use it as a check against the method that I had used previously:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EGlb_VpTAw&t=2s

Sure enough I found a couple of valves that were way loose.

The above method is so simple and fool-proof, highly recommend!

[33fromSD]

Found this valve lash/preload setting tutorial on line and thought I would use it as a check against the method that I had used previously:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EGlb_VpTAw&t=2s

Sure enough I found a couple of valves that were way loose.

The above method is so simple and fool-proof, highly recommend!

I've used this method in the past...good process, my only suggestion to greatly improve it is.....once push rods are install in the engine take a rag with lacquer thinner and wiped down each push rod really well and then wear rubber gloves before starting the process. If you touch anything oily, swap out the rubber gloves.

Why?..... because I found if the push rods have the slightest bit of oil of them you'll get a false feel when spinning them so where you should have zero lash you may have slightly more because you trying to spin the push rod harder due to the oily surface. And then wearing rubber gloves takes out the variable of things like oily fingers, dry skin, sweaty skin, finger sensitivity issue (nerve problems, arthritis, etc.).

You need to be able to consistently "lightly" spin the push rod to be able to feel zero lash.

Jim

[narly1]

I've used this method in the past...good process, my only suggestion to greatly improve it is....
Jim

I hear you. I do think though that having some assembly lube on either end of the pushrod is partly key to consistency. If the pushrod shaft is a bit slippery to me the worst thing that can happen is that you are adding a bit more pre-load (ie going a bit past zero lash) than if it wasn't (slippery) as you tighten down the rocker which is not the end of the world.

[33fromSD]

I hear you. I do think though that having some assembly lube on either end of the pushrod is partly key to consistency. If the pushrod shaft is a bit slippery to me the worst thing that can happen is that you are adding a bit more pre-load (ie going a bit past zero lash) than if it wasn't (slippery) as you tighten down the rocker which is not the end of the world.

Fully agree...lube on the ends is fine, it's more about being able to spin the push rod consistently which is why I clean the push rod body (I should have clarified that, sorry).

Jim

[narly1]

No, no, I got what you were saying. But what I was saying is that if the shaft is slippery as long as you can spin it as you bring it down to zero lash the worst thing that can happen
is that you're going to add a little bit of pre-load.

[33fromSD]

No, no, I got what you were saying. But what I was saying is that if the shaft is slippery as long as you can spin it as you bring it down to zero lash the worst thing that can happen
is that you're going to add a little bit of pre-load.

Yup...agree

[narly1]

Sigh.....these parts delays due to COVID are killing me.

Nothing I can do on my engine build until late June now.

I guess this means I should apply myself to getting the build stand fabricated and ready to go.

One of our fellow FFR'ers said something to me that I think very much applies to these projects:

"Keep moving forward. Even if its only a little, do something every day."

[33fromSD]

"Keep moving forward. Even if its only a little, do something every day."

That is absolutely correct...on my build it wasn't full-time every day, every weekend, it was a couple hours here, a half hour there, 20 minutes in the morning before work and then I hit it hard on any open weekend when I had a longer window.

You can get a ton of stuff done in short periods of time with the right organization.

Jim

[narly1]

Getting closer...piecing together the fuel delivery system that will be needed for the run-up.

I doubt this piece is any different than any of the other regulators out there but for some reason it caught my eye LOL.

148955

[narly1]

Any issues with using this location for the ignition coil?
I'm not using a power steering pump.

149118

[33fromSD]

That's where I mounted mine on our 302 in our 69 Mustang and have had it like that for 5 years and never had any issues. Although mine is at ~70 deg cause at one point some old school mechanic told me the coil needs to be vertical or close to (no less than 60 deg) for the contents to be level. Sideways can lessen the life of the coil.

I think high vibration coils like MSD may be exempt from that rule but not sure.

Jim

[narly1]

That's where I mounted mine on our 302 in our 69 Mustang and have had it like that for 5 years and never had any issues. Although mine is at ~70 deg cause at one point some old school mechanic told me the coil needs to be vertical or close to (no less than 60 deg) for the contents to be level. Sideways can lessen the life of the coil.

I think high vibration coils like MSD may be exempt from that rule but not sure.

Jim

Ya, your right. Shame on me for not reading the install instructions more carefully. It does say for the coil that I have that it should be vertical. That being said I posted my question up to the Facebook SBF group and lots of guys say they are getting away with mounting it they way I have it now.

[33fromSD]

Ya, your right. Shame on me for not reading the install instructions more carefully. It does say for the coil that I have that it should be vertical. That being said I posted my question up to the Facebook SBF group and lots of guys say they are getting away with mounting it they way I have it now.

It will definitely work being horizontal, you may just get shortened life and some some have mentioned on the mustang forums that heat soak is more prevalant being horizontal than vertical.

Jim

[narly1]

I was working with what I had. The bracket is a 2-hole/ U-strap type and there re 3 tapped holes in the end of the head, hence the angle. I have since ordered one of the single hole P-type clamps. That way I can get the coil vertical on the head. I might also be able to pick up on the one water pump bolt location that you can see in the bottom of the photo and mount the bracket there. The other idea I had was an adapter plate on standoffs that I could attach to those holes in the head and then bolt my U-bracket to that. But that sounds like a lot of work, LOL.

[narly1]

So here's the improved version of the coil mounting.

Scott Drake stainless steel, single hole coil bracket mounted "backwards" off of one of the water pump bolts.

I'm lucky that I can get away with this as I don't have any other accessory drive components taking up that spot.

149328

[narly1]

I Just checked the order for my EFI and it has now been pushed out from shipping next week until the first week of September.

I can't tell you all how disappointed I am about this. I placed my order on March 18th....

Hopefully the delivery improves between now and then....

[33fromSD]

Bummer...... When does your 33 Kit arrive?

Jim

[narly1]

I haven't put in my order yet. Mortgage is paid off next spring so thinking maybe late next summer for spring 2023 delivery.

I'm kind of hoping that by the time I do order that a roadster version of the Speedstar is available.

[narly1]

So this the point I'm stuck at now until the EFI system shows up:

150490

[33fromSD]

So this the point I'm stuck at now until the EFI system shows up:

150490

That new intake looks outstanding!! :D

Jim

[Mike DiGiorgio]

not at all,. even with a mostly stock 302 these cars run in the 12s at the quarter mile. In no way is that " slow" if you want to do a really mild build pop a set of Gt40p heads off an explorer on it, and do a standalone ecu and you will pick up an extra 60-80hp.

[narly1]

In no way is that " slow" if you want to do a really mild build....

LOL, I'm way past that stage Mike. I'm Just waiting now on the Pro Flo 4 system to turn up.

Earl

[Mike DiGiorgio]

Nice! i am still not sure how i feel about the pro-flow system. I feel like one of the most important reasons to go multi port is that you can use a " dry" intake manifold with a single butterfly throttle body. whereas the pro-flow system basically uses a wet manifold with injector bungs. I would be really interested to see how it performs on a 302 compared to a Trick Flow: TFS-51511002 with a standalone ecu.

[narly1]

Mike,

My understanding is that a single point injection system sprays fuel in at the top of the manifold. Thus a fuel/air mixture is making its way down the manifold runners into the combustion chambers. So I guess one could call it a "wet" system.

My understanding is that in a multi-port system only air is flowing through the manifold runners up until the point where the injectors squirt some fuel into the flow path. On the Pro Flo 4 manifold this point is just at the 8 intake ports. So I guess you could say that the Pro Flo 4 system is a "dry" not "wet" system.

The other adavantage of the PF4 over the other systems out there is the fact that the electronics are off board from the engine, away from the heat & vibration and a lot easier to get at from a service perspective.

There's plenty of feedback out there that says that the PF4 works great with a 302.

I'm not concerned in the least.

Earl

[Mike DiGiorgio]

Correct, My inquiry is because a dry manifold can have much longer runners than a wet system. There is no need to have a throttle body top/center in an engine in a dry manifold. Longer runners is a good thing on a street engine. As for electornics off board, a standard Trick flow multi port manifold for a 302 with a stand alone also has this.

Basically, when i see the pro flow 4, i see a wet flow style manifold being used in a dry flow application. And i feel like if multiport/dry flow is the goal. Why not use the best manifold to work with that?

[narly1]

Correct, My inquiry is because a dry manifold can have much longer runners than a wet system. There is no need to have a throttle body top/center in an engine in a dry manifold. Longer runners is a good thing on a street engine. As for electornics off board, a standard Trick flow multi port manifold for a 302 with a stand alone also has this.

Basically, when i see the pro flow 4, i see a wet flow style manifold being used in a dry flow application. And i feel like if multiport/dry flow is the goal. Why not use the best manifold to work with that?

I don't know the answer. That would be a good question to ask Edelbrock. I have seen some commentary that a EFIs work best with single plane vs dual plane manifolds, perhaps that along with a more traditional "carb & manifold" appearance is why the design is the way it is?

[narly1]

Damn just learned today that Edelbrock has pushed out the delivery of the Pro Flo 4 out by another 5-6 weeks to mid- OCTOBER. :mad:

[narly1]

Recall from one of my earlier posts that I had decided to clean and re-use the old oil pump pick-up in my 302. Reason being that it only had 60,000mi on it and the new one that came with the pan did not fit very well (too high up off of the bottom of the pan).
But after watching an online video on the subject I had second thoughts and ordered a new one. I figured for the $50 (CAD) it wasn't worth taking a chance on a motor that will have almost $15,000 (CAD) into it once I'm done.
I then decided to peel open the pick-up to see for myself what it might look like inside. The housing itself was clean enough but look at the crap on the backside of the "cap" and the screen. Note that that this was after what I considered to be a thorough cleaning....

152796

152797

[33fromSD]

Recall from one of my earlier posts that I had decided to clean and re-use the old oil pump pick-up in my 302. Reason being that it only had 60,000mi on it and the new one that came with the pan did not fit very well (too high up off of the bottom of the pan).
But after watching an online video on the subject I had second thoughts and ordered a new one. I figured for the $50 (CAD) it wasn't worth taking a chance on a motor that will have almost $15,000 (CAD) into it once I'm done.
I then decided to peel open the pick-up to see for myself what it might look like inside. The housing itself was clean enough but look at the crap on the backside of the "cap" and the screen. Note that that this was after what I considered to be a thorough cleaning....

152796

152797

Good call Earl

Personally, I never reuse the old oil pump whether it has 1K, 5K or 50K miles on it. They are cheap enough for new one and provides a piece of mind on all the hard work that goes into an engine.

My rule of thumb on engine rebuilds is unless I can easily get to it after the engine is installed in the car, it's getting replaced, price isn't even a consideration if you factor in the PITA it is to have to pull the engine and replace a part that was reused and then reinstall everything.

Any updates on the rest of your parts you're waiting on?

Jim

[narly1]

Any updates on the rest of your parts you're waiting on?

Jim

Sigh, 1st-2nd week of Sept or middle of Oct depending on what info is accurate.

Farting around with a few things in an effort to keep my mind off of the delivery delays but damn it's hard.

I've pieced together everything needed for the fuel delivery system, AN fittings, hose, pre & post pump filters, pump, regulator, pump control relay.

Run stand is almost all done, just waiting on a couple of 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 adapters to come from China for that.

[33fromSD]

Sigh, 1st-2nd week of Sept or middle of Oct depending on what info is accurate.

Farting around with a few things in an effort to keep my mind off of the delivery delays but damn it's hard.

I've pieced together everything needed for the fuel delivery system, AN fittings, hose, pre & post pump filters, pump, regulator, pump control relay.

Run stand is almost all done, just waiting on a couple of 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 adapters to come from China for that.

Should be worth the wait, but I know it's tough.

Jim

[narly1]

So true to form on the day my order was supposed to ship from Summit I received an e-mail update from them that it will not ship until mid-Oct. You can't convince me that someone at Edelbrock or Summit didn't know of this delay before today.

[narly1]

So a couple of days ago I get an e-mail alert from Edelbrock that their 35930 system is back in stock and shipping. So I check with Summit and sure enough they have inventory. Note that this is the same system as the one I have on order (PN# 359300) except with the inclusion of an Android tablet and its ~ $100 more.

So I asked Summit if they could pull the tablet out of the box and fulfill my order as is, but no can do.

So I guess I will be offering up an Android tablet on FB Marketplace shortly.

Oh, and BTW the 359300 is on backorder until Dec 20th....how messed up is that?

Earl

[narly1]

After waiting patiently for the past 6 months this EFI system is finally on its way to me. Its the last major component I've been waiting on to finish my engine build.
To say that I'm excited is an understatement!

153617

[narly1]

So tonight we are leak testing the radiator on the run stand. The inlet and outlet hoses are two different sizes, 1-1/2"and 1-3/4".
So how to join them up? I found a hose adapter online meant for use when doing an LS swap. The cool thing is that they have a 1/8" NPT hole between the barbed ends. I found a Schrader (car tire) air fitting that would screw right in. So by joining the two hoses together I'm able to pressurize the rad. I took it up to ~20 PSI, so far no drips, especially around the transmission cooler fittings....recall one was missing from the rad when I got it. (What do you expect for a FB Marketplace $20 special, LOL).
The other cool thing about these adapters is that I need a really long lower hose as the rad is "backwards" in terms of where the lower hose inlet needs to be. No biggie I just bought two of the 1-3/4" hoses and a second hose adapter. The plan is to join the two hoses together to make one long one by using a short length of 1-1/2" hose between the two adapters...

153853

OK so 2 hours later no drips or puddles on the floor and a definite "phfffft" when I opened the cap.
So topped it off with more water and will check in the AM to see if it drops down any.

[narly1]

Getting closer. Lokar throttle cable bracket installed. PCV and breather hoses plumbed in. Drilling a hole in the bottom of a brand new air cleaner housing to accept a barb fitting was not my idea of a good time. Cobraearl style thermostat housing right angle adapter and filler neck installed with a new Fel-pro gasket and aviation gasket sealer on both sides. Need to switch out the hex head bolts holding the right angle adapter for allen socket head types as there is not much room there. Waiting on another pipe plug to block off the spare water temperature sensor location in the manifold. Manifold is sitting on locating dowels made from 4 long bolts with their heads cut off. That way I can drop it onto the heads and block valley without having to shift it around and mess up the wet silicone beads on the front and rear china walls.
Figure it will be sometime next weekend before I have the finished engine mounted on the stand and ready to run.

153968

[narly1]

Once again the devil is in the details.

So I prepped and installed the intake gaskets and tried bolting the fuel injection manifold down last night.

I couldn't get the bolts to come up to torque, they were "relaxing" between torquing steps.

This started to scare me as I was afraid that the threads in the aluminum cylinder heads were starting to let go. So I stopped and did some checking. The mounting holes are 2.5" deep but my bolts are only 2" long. So my set-up was missing out on "grabbing" an additional 1/2" of threading in the heads. I'm hoping it was just the bolts stretching, as (I am guessing) only 1/2" or so of the bolts were going into the head threads.

So now we wait for proper studs to arrive that will allow me to take advantage of the entire length of threading in the heads.

[33fromSD]

Once again the devil is in the details.

So I prepped and installed the intake gaskets and tried bolting the fuel injection manifold down last night.

I couldn't get the bolts to come up to torque, they were "relaxing" between torquing steps.

This started to scare me as I was afraid that the threads in the aluminum cylinder heads were starting to let go. So I stopped and did some checking. The mounting holes are 2.5" deep but my bolts are only 2" long. So my set-up was missing out on "grabbing" an additional 1/2" of threading in the heads. I'm hoping it was just the bolts stretching, as (I am guessing) only 1/2" or so of the bolts were going into the head threads.

So now we wait for proper studs to arrive that will allow me to take advantage of the entire length of threading in the heads.

If you used any type of silicon around the water passages or the ends of the manifold that could have been settling as you torque, but I agree, go with the longer bolts, especially on aluminum head.

Jim

[narly1]

If you used any type of silicon around the water passages or the ends of the manifold that could have been settling as you torque,

Jim

I don't think that was the case as the "relaxing" happened about 4 times at the 15 ft-lb level. That and there was one bolt where the torque actually started to go down (YIKES!) as I tried tightening it. When I replaced it with a longer bolt that I had kicking around I was able to get it to go above 15 ft-lbs and up to 20 ft-lbs. Per Edelbrock the spec is 23-25 ft-lbs. Rather than press my luck I left everything at 15 ft-lbs and things can stay that way until I change them out for the new studs.

Earl

[narly1]

The last piece of the puzzle needed showed up today; new manifold studs. The bolts that came with my hardware kit were on the short side and as a result they wouldn't tighten past ~15 ft-lbs. The few threads in the aluminum heads that the bolts were grabbing on were starting to let go. The new stainless steel studs engage with all the threads in the heads and as a result I was able to get up to 20 ft-lbs which I feel is a reasonable torque value.
Next stop is the run stand. S**t is getting real! (LOL)

154597

[J R Jones]

Conventional design criteria is 1.5 diameters of thread engagement of a fastener in steel/cast iron. Two diameters or more in aluminum. So a .5 diameter bolt needs .75 inch thread engagement.
Respecting fastener grade is critical. SAE requires grade five or better for automotive application.
A fastener s expected to stretch as it is torqued putting a load on the joint that will sustain through load and thermal cycles.
A poor fastener can yield during torque and feel soft, as if it is striping. Stop and remove the faster before it breaks. If you examine the threads you may notice that the thread pitch has changed where the bolt stretched. The threads are the smallest cross section so that is the area the bolt stretches and can yield.
jim

[narly1]

Thanks Jim for the detailed technical info.

My intuitive seat of the pants diagnosis went like this:

I took out one fastener and made some measurements as to how deep the hole was and the depth at which the threads started down in the hole. I then compared that to the length of the bolt and how far the threads went up the bolt. Based on this I maybe had only a 1/4 to 1/2" or so of thread engagement. I can't tell you why but this seemed like too short an engagement length given what I was observing and my gut instinct (Maybe past experience kicking in?). I then confirmed my theory by putting in a different fastener with a known, calculated longer thread engagement in and observed that I could achieve a higher torque value.

And that's where I stopped until the new studs turned up. I decided to go with studs so I could take advantage of all the threading available in the heads. Not very scientific, but practical and methodical.

[narly1]

Unlike TV shows it takes more than a hour to get things done. Lots of "shade tree engineering" over the last week of evenings and today to get the engine moved over from the build stand to its new home on the run stand.

One of the first issues was the interference between the legs on the hoist and the two stands. I wanted to make sure that I didn't have to reach out over the end of the stand legs and have everything tip over.

So in looking at things I realized that if the stands could move over top of the hoist legs I'd be golden. But how to do that? It turned out that the solution was simple. The hoist legs ride on casters and telescope out of the main frame. So I pulled them out, rotated them 90 degrees allowing the legs to sit flat on floor....problem solved!

The adjustable stanchions on the run stand worked great. Quite a bit of messing around with the rear part of the stand though to get it fitted right.

It's not pretty but it will work fine as the third mounting/levelling point for the bell housing which serves as the engine to stand adapter, flex plate guard and starter mount.

All in all a successful transfer with no moments where I thought anything would be damaged or I would get hurt by things dropping. ��

Alternator and fan belt are back on (they had to come off to clear lifting chains).

My throttle lever/cable linkage is connected and works, it doesn't go all the way to full, but close enough for now.

Rad hoses are hooked up. The swivel fitting on the upper made that part really easy. The two hoses joined together are long enough for the lower.

I thought that I might have some significant imbalance such that the whole apple cart might want to tip onto its nose but it seems to not be an issue. All the same I'm going to block it up at the front somehow just to be safe.

Still lots to do before first run-up, but its getting close.

154722

[33fromSD]

When I did a 302 for my 67 mustang a few years back, I did the lower half of the engine on the engine stand so I could spin the block, and once that portion was done (including oil pan) I moved the block over to the engine run stand and assembled the rest of the engine on the run stand. Worked out really nice and attaching the short block to the run stand with nothing else on the block was breeze.

Not sure what type of engine stand or hoist you have, but I had no problems getting my hoist legs to clear the engine stand.

Jim

[narly1]

The build stand has a 3 caster T style base but that wasn't the problem. The run stand is based on a more stable 4 caster U style base and sure enough the leg spacing of it and my hoist were the exact same. With the hoist legs all the way out I couldn't push the stand far enough into the inside of the V to be safe. Similarly with hoist legs all the way in the V was too wide for the engine stand to straddle them. But I made it work, just some head scratching, that's all, LOL.

FYI run stand is a Power Fist Brand from Princess Auto, the Canuck equivalent of Harbour Freight.

Earl

[narly1]

Just a few tricks over the weekend and one huge treat tonight.

Frankenstein's monster is alive!


https://www.facebook.com/earl.anderson.18/videos/306017537745450/

[33fromSD]

Sound Nice. did you do a break in as well?

Jim

[narly1]

Sound Nice. did you do a break in as well?

Jim

No, not per se. The one thing I learned through this process is that true break-in only occurs when an engine is under load. So in the absence of a dyno or car to put the engine in, all you're really doing are the very first steps: checking for leaks or any other odd behaviour, setting timing, idle speed etc.

It all feels a bit anti-climactic at this point. I just have to keep reminding myself though of how huge it is to just get the engine to this stage, especially given that it's my first build ever.

[johnnybgoode]

Sounds great! Congrats. Scott

[narly1]

Some of the "tricks" over the past couple of days before getting to the "treat".

Pipe flange on the passenger side header that I scrounged needed to have some material ground off of it to clear the starter.

The electric fuel pump is a "push-only" type and thus the fuel tank outlet has to be located above the pump inlet.

Setting regulator pressure to 43 PSI as required by the EFI is a must. I had it too low and the engine would starve for fuel off of idle and die.

Braided stainless steel sleeved line is a pain to use with AN fittings.

Getting the fuel delivery component chain (pre-filter - pump - post filter - regulator) leak tight was a pain.

Drilling a second hole in the bottom of the air cleaner for the EFI air temp sensor was not a fun time.

Earl

[narly1]

OK so tonight I was messing around with the IAC setting and got that to a nice average (per Edelbrock manual) reading of ~10. It seems a little counter-intuitive but you have to bring up the idle RPMs with the throttle stop screw to give the IAC enough RPMs to throttle back against if you get my meaning.

So some first nervous RPM pulls, I've had it up as high as 3500 so far and it's staying together.

[narly1]

Should I take it any higher RPM-wise or call the exercise good for now until it finally gets dropped into its new home.

Note that this is a no-load situation with just a flywheel bolted to the end of the crank and bear in mind that I'm standing right beside the thing when it's running.

Earl

[narly1]

I was concerned that (in my opinion) the noise coming from the valve train was a bit excessive.

Ended up adding another 1/2 turn of preload to the lifters. This seems to have quieted things down a bit but not to where I think it should be.

Some other factors:

1. I have learned that my chosen cam profile closes (slams?) the exhaust shut pretty aggressively and thus tends to be noisier than average.

2. Still running the 5W20 break-in oil. Going to leave that in it for now but suspect that going to thicker 10W30 will help quiet things down some more.

So after making the changes I took the opportunity to rev it up a little higher. Made it to 4500 before I called it a day.

I've temporarily drained the oil out so I could take the filter apart for inspection.

In the process of doing so I've noticed that I have a small oil leak.

It looks like it's coming from the oil pan rail on the one side. My theory is that the higher RPMS causes the oil to splash around a lot more inside the block.

EDIT: So did some research into "oil leakage at high RPM" and it looks like I might have to do some tweaking on my adjustable PCV valve.

So another little thing to fix, and an example of why I chose to run the engine on a stand first instead of in the car.

Earl

[narly1]

OK, so I cut the filter can open and found the odd shiny fleck (too small to be chips or chunks) of metal. Interestingly there seemed to be more of what looked like lint in the folds than anything....maybe from all the rags I used?

I also tossed a small but strong magnet into the drained oil, and swirled it around. I came out as clean as it went in.

So overall it looks like nothing is grinding up inside.