Got Rust?

[Aircontroller]

Greetings,

I’m considering purchasing an MK4 kit but I’m debating to opt for not getting the powder coat and using an off-the-shelf antirust primer and then high temp paint. This is not necessarily because I’m trying to dodge the cost with a powder coat but because I can reapply at will with materials easily available to me.

Any pros or cons comments would be much appreciated! Thanks!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Can't do a pro/con because my experience is only with a powder coated chassis. Car kit delivered Feb 2014, NC tagged Mar 2015. Driven daily - 12,000 current miles & no chassis rust.

[GoDadGo]

Greetings,

IÂ’m considering purchasing an MK4 kit but IÂ’m debating to opt for not getting the powder coat and using an off-the-shelf antirust primer and then high temp paint. This is not necessarily because IÂ’m trying to dodge the cost with a powder coat but because I can reapply at will with materials easily available to me.

Any pros or cons comments would be much appreciated! Thanks!

Totally bad idea to NOT get the chassis powder coated.

If it gets scraped or peels, rattle can Rustoleum Black Primer matches the current powder coat pretty well.

[Aircontroller]

Why is it a bad idea?

What loss of protection is there by going with a rustoleum type of primer?


Totally bad idea to NOT get the chassis powder coated.

If it gets scraped or peels, rattle can Rustoleum Black Primer matches the current powder coat pretty well.

[Furrman]

I don't know about MK4 frames, but, my truck frame came powder coated. There were so many rough welds,mig wire sticks,welding splatter that there was no way they even wiped it off before coating. by the time I cleaned it up most of it needed a repaint.

[Avalanche325]

My car has 25k miles and I live at the beach. I am just now doing (literally on jack stands right now) some rustproofing and touch-up painting on my powdercoated frame. I am using Eastwood rust converter, rust encapsulator, and chassis paint. Basically, areas that face forward eventually get sandblasted.

I put swaybays on and decided to clean, prime, and paint with Rustolium. That didn't even last a year and they need to be redone.

Powdercoat is much tougher than regular paint.

I would not use high temp paint. That is made specifically for temperature resistance. You need something that is made for impact toughness. If I were going DIY, I would have a look at something like POR-15.

[GoDadGo]

Why is it a bad idea?

What loss of protection is there by going with a rustoleum type of primer?

When you add up all the rattle cans, you will be shocked at how much you will spend.

[Aircontroller]

It’s not a question regarding budget but more of practicality and material durability.


When you add up all the rattle cans, you will be shocked at how much you will spend.

[edwardb]

I personally haven't. But a number of build threads have been posted where guys painted the frame. Most have said it was more work than they thought and the factory supplied powder coat now looked like a bargain. Having said that, probably makes sense if (1) If you're planning multiple changes including welding, (2) If you want another color beside the current offering of satin black. Other than that, I'd go with it. I get that Factory Five doesn't go too overboard cleaning up welds, splatter, etc. But in my experience it's not bad and very unlikely would take away from the finished product. X2 on powder coating being more durable than nearly anything you could apply yourself. POR15 might be the closest, but still not as durable.

[cv2065]

I think the powder coating option was $300 when I bought mine. Not sure if its different now, but it's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. The amount of time and money that you'll spend with rattle cans sputtering, dripping and the ultimate finished product not looking smooth and silky, like you'd get from an FFR'd PC'd frame, I don't think is worth the trouble or the potential small savings...if any. The prep work will also need to be immaculate if you don't want peeling down the road...then you'll really have a mess. As has been mentioned, the durability will also be questionable with rattle cans. You are spending a LOT of dough on this kit...Now's not the time to start cutting corners...:)

[Aircontroller]

Cv2065,

I mentioned this on the first post and in a subsequent response, money is not a factor as part of this discussion.

However, knowing more about how each product handles in the long term IS.




I think the powder coating option was $300 when I bought mine. Not sure if its different now, but it's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. The amount of time and money that you'll spend with rattle cans sputtering, dripping and the ultimate finished product not looking smooth and silky, like you'd get from an FFR'd PC'd frame, I don't think is worth the trouble or the potential small savings...if any. The prep work will also need to be immaculate if you don't want peeling down the road...then you'll really have a mess. As has been mentioned, the durability will also be questionable with rattle cans. You are spending a LOT of dough on this kit...Now's not the time to start cutting corners...:)

[Aircontroller]

Thank you Paul! Very helpful.



I personally haven't. But a number of build threads have been posted where guys painted the frame. Most have said it was more work than they thought and the factory supplied powder coat now looked like a bargain. Having said that, probably makes sense if (1) If you're planning multiple changes including welding, (2) If you want another color beside the current offering of satin black. Other than that, I'd go with it. I get that Factory Five doesn't go too overboard cleaning up welds, splatter, etc. But in my experience it's not bad and very unlikely would take away from the finished product. X2 on powder coating being more durable than nearly anything you could apply yourself. POR15 might be the closest, but still not as durable.

[GoDadGo]

It’s not a question regarding budget but more of practicality and material durability.

It's all about building your dream, be it painted or powder coated.
If your mind was made up, why post the question.
I'm sure you'll be happy in the end.
Good Luck!

[Jeff Kleiner]

My apologies for offending anyone who ha done their chassis in POR, Rustoleum or similar but I've yet to see one that didn't look like crap. The FFR powdercoat is a bargain and durable---my own car is 13 years old and still intact and looks good. Same for a 15 year old orphan Mk3 that I'm building currently, even after spending the first 14 of those years in a barn. I built another orphaned Mk3 of 2005 vintage about 5 years ago and it still looked new. Of all the cars I've had come through my shop for paint I have yet to see one where the FFR optioned powdercoat was compromised. Now with that said, as has been mentioned if you want a different color you have to go elsewhere. Same if you want to clean up every bit of weld splatter, etc. but really unless you have plans of competing at the Grand National Roadster Show they are perfectly acceptable as delivered.

Just my sometimes not so humble opinion and what I've seen/experienced...in the end your choice and money.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Aircontroller]

Thank you for sharing your expertise!

I appreciate it if u sound humble or not.




My apologies for offending anyone who ha done their chassis in POR, Rustoleum or similar but I've yet to see one that didn't look like crap. The FFR powdercoat is a bargain and durable---my own car is 13 years old and still intact and looks good. Same for a 15 year old orphan Mk3 that I'm building currently, even after spending the first 14 of those years in a barn. I built another orphaned Mk3 of 2005 vintage about 5 years ago and it still looked new. Of all the cars I've had come through my shop for paint I have yet to see one where the FFR optioned powdercoat was compromised. Now with that said, as has been mentioned if you want a different color you have to go elsewhere. Same if you want to clean up every bit of weld splatter, etc. but really unless you have plans of competing at the Grand National Roadster Show they are perfectly acceptable as delivered.

Just my sometimes not so humble opinion and what I've seen/experienced...in the end your choice and money.

Cheers,
Jeff

[rich grsc]

It’s not a question regarding budget but more of practicality and material durability.
Well, simple fact, powder coating is vastly more durable that any paint. As for POR, I agree with Jeff, looks terrible, should be labeled POS.

[Jim1855]

I bought an unassembled kit, chassis in black powdercoat. Generally all good but:

I've also modified the chassis a lot and had to clean off the original powder either chemically or by disk sanding. Then had to paint the chassis, used a 2-part paint after the welding. Should have used rattle can POR-15 or whatever it is.

If I was to do it again I'd probably get it raw, clean up the original welds, make the mods and then paint it.

Jim

[Joecobr]

I opted for no powder coating thinking I could save a few bucks. Instead, I first tried applying POR 15 to a cleaned up frame but it would not adhere properly. I then had the frame sandblasted completely and then applied POR 15 and a top coat of Eastwood chassis gloss black. It all turned out very well and I believe it is as durable as powder coat, if not quite as good looking. Several times since I have dinged the frame and the POR 15 did not chip off at all. The down side was that it was very time consuming to do all of this and it turned out to be quite a bit more expensive than powder coating. I would not recommend it.

[Papa]

My chassis is powder coated in gloss black, not the new satin finish. It's very easy to touch up with POR-15 if it gets chipped or scratched. I suspect, as Steve pointed out, that there is a product that can closely match the new satin black PC. Unless you plan significant mods to the chassis that require welding, I think getting the PC from FFR is the way to go.

Dave

[mike223]

I took the bare frame because I wanted to be able to rearrange (cut / weld / etc) as necessary without cleaning off powder coat (PITA).

In less than 3 months I could not stand seeing every hand print I put on the frame rust (light surface rust).

Opted for rattle can black primer - which I've been very satisfied with - 10 years in.

But it's literally an 8-10 hour job.

1- Roll frame dolly into back yard.
2- Roll frame up on it's side + wipe down with naptha.
3- Spray everything you can get to.
4- Roll frame on other side, wipe down with naptha, spray everything you can get to.
5- Repeat as necessary until satisfied.

Expect 8-12 hours, half gallon naptha + bags o' rags, 15-20 rattle cans of primer to get it "well covered".


Actual "paint" on top of primer would require more extensive work.

[Sdonnel]

I chose the bare frame option knowing I was going to change a lot of little things and add others. I was able to take my time and clean all the weld splatter off and smooth/knock down some of the welds that were preventing panels from sitting squarely as well. When the mods were done, the car and all the aluminum went to the powder coater. My first car, a Mk 3.1, must have been the only one to have a bad powder coat. It was literally flaking off the bottom of the round tubes near the rear end. Wire brush and gloss black paint made it look like new. I paid $700 to have the frame and panels blasted and coated. Powder was additional, but not too bad. I also got to choose my own color.

Scott

[Aircontroller]

Thank you for sharing that experience....


I opted for no powder coating thinking I could save a few bucks. Instead, I first tried applying POR 15 to a cleaned up frame but it would not adhere properly. I then had the frame sandblasted completely and then applied POR 15 and a top coat of Eastwood chassis gloss black. It all turned out very well and I believe it is as durable as powder coat, if not quite as good looking. Several times since I have dinged the frame and the POR 15 did not chip off at all. The down side was that it was very time consuming to do all of this and it turned out to be quite a bit more expensive than powder coating. I would not recommend it.

[Aircontroller]

Thanks Papa....that was my concern about the powder coating. I won’t be doing mods to the frame unless it’s related to the weld points.

You hit some points that I needed info on as well. Thanks!


My chassis is powder coated in gloss black, not the new satin finish. It's very easy to touch up with POR-15 if it gets chipped or scratched. I suspect, as Steve pointed out, that there is a product that can closely match the new satin black PC. Unless you plan significant mods to the chassis that require welding, I think getting the PC from FFR is the way to go.

Dave

[Aircontroller]

Wow....I would have never thought of allotting that much time for using a rattle can paint process. Thanks for the heads up!


I took the bare frame because I wanted to be able to rearrange (cut / weld / etc) as necessary without cleaning off powder coat (PITA).

In less than 3 months I could not stand seeing every hand print I put on the frame rust (light surface rust).

Opted for rattle can black primer - which I've been very satisfied with - 10 years in.

But it's literally an 8-10 hour job.

1- Roll frame dolly into back yard.
2- Roll frame up on it's side + wipe down with naptha.
3- Spray everything you can get to.
4- Roll frame on other side, wipe down with naptha, spray everything you can get to.
5- Repeat as necessary until satisfied.

Expect 8-12 hours, half gallon naptha + bags o' rags, 15-20 rattle cans of primer to get it "well covered".


Actual "paint" on top of primer would require more extensive work.

[Aircontroller]

Interesting. Thanks!



I chose the bare frame option knowing I was going to change a lot of little things and add others. I was able to take my time and clean all the weld splatter off and smooth/knock down some of the welds that were preventing panels from sitting squarely as well. When the mods were done, the car and all the aluminum went to the powder coater. My first car, a Mk 3.1, must have been the only one to have a bad powder coat. It was literally flaking off the bottom of the round tubes near the rear end. Wire brush and gloss black paint made it look like new. I paid $700 to have the frame and panels blasted and coated. Powder was additional, but not too bad. I also got to choose my own color.

Scott

[Railroad]

This might be more expensive than powder coating, but I have used this on restoring firearms and very pleased with the product and results.
Not much of a choice for colors and after you activate the hardener the shelf life is dated.
If you have some smaller parts that need a good durable finish and cannot get to a powder coater, this might be an option.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/paint-finishes/air-cure-aerosol-paints/durablue-spray-on-blueing-12oz-aerosol-prod80323.aspx

[michael everson]

The unmentioned downside to not getting the FFR powder coating is you cant start building as soon as you get it home.
Mike

[mike223]

The unmentioned downside to not getting the FFR powder coating is you cant start building as soon as you get it home.
Mike

I did a lot of fitting up - but I did get tired of looking at the surface rust a lot sooner than I expected.

[rich grsc]

This might be more expensive than powder coating, but I have used this on restoring firearms and very pleased with the product and results.
Not much of a choice for colors and after you activate the hardener the shelf life is dated.
If you have some smaller parts that need a good durable finish and cannot get to a powder coater, this might be an option.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/paint-finishes/air-cure-aerosol-paints/durablue-spray-on-blueing-12oz-aerosol-prod80323.aspx
At $50 per 16oz, ya maybe 2x powder coating, plus the huge amount of labor. Yep that make perfect sense :rolleyes:

[Railroad]

At $50 per 16oz, ya maybe 2x powder coating, plus the huge amount of labor. Yep that make perfect sense :rolleyes:

I thought I put enough caveats in there, but I guess not.

[Jetfuel]

I will go un-coated and spray a marine or appliance 2K epoxy primer and the color of my choosing....rattle can is not an option for protection for the long run...

Jet...my 2

[RBachman]

This might be more expensive than powder coating, but I have used this on restoring firearms and very pleased with the product and results.
Not much of a choice for colors and after you activate the hardener the shelf life is dated.
If you have some smaller parts that need a good durable finish and cannot get to a powder coater, this might be an option.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/paint-finishes/air-cure-aerosol-paints/durablue-spray-on-blueing-12oz-aerosol-prod80323.aspx

Cerakote also has some very impressive air cure ceramic coatings and in a lot of colors. I'm considering one of their products for my factory exhaust pipes. They claim 1800 deg. F with an air cure product.

[Aircontroller]

Oooooh.....I didn’t know this material could be used for these applications. Thank you!


Cerakote also has some very impressive air cure ceramic coatings and in a lot of colors. I'm considering one of their products for my factory exhaust pipes. They claim 1800 deg. F with an air cure product.

[67 Car Guy]

Well I have a very sad tale to tell. I built my own custom steel tube frame around 2008. When it was all done I wiped it down with solvent and brushed it with POR15. The stuff is really tough. I then proceeded to use large ABS sheet to skin the bottom. I used the chrome-plated truss head screws from Home Depot. When the car was done it became my daily driver. I was living in NJ and they are quick to salt the roads in the winter. By 2017 one of the rear frame members actually separated in the middle, completely rusted through. I considered trying to repair it, but upon closer inspection I found that The entire lower part of the frame had badly rusted. Looks like wherever I put screws into it on the bottom just served as starting points for rust. The screws into the frame seemed to be the weak points. I sold the car for scrap this past March. One of the hardest things I ever had to do.

So now I'm planning an 818 build. My plan is to get the frame in bare steel, make all my chassis mods and weld on any new brackets. Once I have a "finished" chassis, the plan is to send it out to a local shop who will sand blast it to get a good surface finish and then powder coat it. It'll wind up costing me more than getting it coated from Factory 5, but I should not have to worry about "touching up" the powder coat wherever I wind up welding. I'm still wrestling with what to do about all the panel and body fasteners. I've been thinking about maybe using galvanized screws wherever I have to drill into the chassis. From what I understand, the zinc will prevent any rust where the screws contact bare steel. I'm also worried about the "sealed" insides of the frame tubing. Will they really stay sealed? Once I start drilling holes in them I'm thinking water will find it's way in, so I'm wondering how to prevent rust from the inside out. Any suggestions? Comments?

[Railroad]

https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-internal-frame-coating-14oz-aerosol.html

[AC Bill]

I thought I put enough caveats in there, but I guess not.

Don't mind Rich, he's snarky with everyone..:p:D

[rich grsc]

It's a nasty unappreciated job, but someone's got to do it. :rolleyes:

[67 Car Guy]

The Eastwood stuff may be the only solution. And it does have Zinc in it, which should help a lot. I used the exhaust version of it when I did my 67 Mustang exhaust system. The part I hate is that i'll be taking a "sealed" frame section and drilling maybe a 1/4 inch hole in it to snake the tube left and right, with no good way to inspect it (without drilling an even bigger hole). Some of the 818 frame sections are pretty small. I agree Rich, it's a nasty job that no one else would ever appreciate. I have a tendency to obsess over things like this.

[NAZ]

I've built several tube chassis cars and painted most with automotive paint. I've also had them powder coated. The best paint I've found that holds up to road hazards is the Eastwood chassis paint. But powder coat is more durable than any paint I've found yet.


But here's the biggest issue for me. Painting a tube chassis is a PITA like you can't imagine until you try it. Trying to get even coverage is difficult and if you start on the inner tubes you will get over-spray on them when you spray the outer tubes and ruin the gloss finish. If you start on the outer tubes you will lean on the fresh paint on the outer tubes when you try t reach across to paint the inner tubes. And you will get over-spray on the outer tubes anyway. Most of your paint will end up on the shop floor so you must buy more paint than what you expect you need. And I use a chassis rotisserie, if trying to paint a chassis without one you are going to struggle 10 times more.

So from my experience, powder coating is the best, easiest, and lest expensive way to coat a chassis.

[67 Car Guy]

Hi Naz;

I agree. I'm planning to powder coat the outside of my frame. I'm getting it bare from FF, going to do all my mods and weld my brackets, and then bring it to a local shop for media blasting and powder coat.

John

[JohnK]

I ordered my MkIV chassis uncoated because I wanted to make a couple mods and clean up the frame prior to PC, and I also wanted a color other than black. I ended up spending way more time cleaning up weld spatter than I expected. You don't realize how much weld spatter is on the frame until you see it on a bare frame and have to clean it off. :( All in all, I'm happy I ordered it uncoated but it was a lot of work to clean it properly and definitely more expensive to have it coated locally. All that considered, I'd still order my next one uncoated again.

[Briansshop]

I ordered my MkIV chassis uncoated because I wanted to make a couple mods and clean up the frame prior to PC, and I also wanted a color other than black. I ended up spending way more time cleaning up weld spatter than I expected. You don't realize how much weld spatter is on the frame until you see it on a bare frame and have to clean it off. :( All in all, I'm happy I ordered it uncoated but it was a lot of work to clean it properly and definitely more expensive to have it coated locally. All that considered, I'd still order my next one uncoated again.

Ordered mine bare for all the same reasons. Will blast and paint with brush on - no over spray probs - Rust-Oleum Hammertone. I've used it on roll cages and axle housings. Durable and easy to touch up if/when needed.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/1-Quart-Silver-Hammered-Rust-Preventative-Brush-Paint/859821431

[67 Car Guy]

I brush painted my home built frame with POR15: it was a bit of a PIA but not horrible. It's a bit pricey but you don't use a lot. I wiped down the smooth tubing with solvent, but I would have sandblasted it if I realized how must better the paint would adhere. I've never used the Rustoleum Hammered, but I suspect after blasting any good paint will adhere well. My issue was really rust which started at coating breaks.

[Hoooper]

I did POR15 on my frame after making a few frame modifications and cleaning up heaps of weld splatter from FFR. I knew what I was getting into since Ive used it on other pieces before, and it did not leave me surprised at all. Definitely NOT a product that results in a perfect finish unless perhaps you are a POR15 expert. I would have gone for powdercoat if I wasnt covering up all of the frame other than the little bit of tube you can see with the hood off which is already pretty obscured by the engine, electrical, etc. If you are not making changes to the car the $400 cost of powdercoat is a good price, the only downside being that if you are expecting a concourse quality job for $400 you will be disappointed.

[Jonny30]

Any of you tried KBS coating?? There's a lot of good reviews.

[67 Car Guy]

Thanks for the tip-
I had not used KBS coatings but I looked up their products. Very similar to the Eastwood Internal Frame coating product, including the long plastic tube applicator with the cute multi-orifice nozzle at the end. KBS seems to take a slightly different approach, their product claims to be a wax-type substance that wicks into the tiniest cracks to prevent rust. The Eastwood product seems to be a paint with a zinc additive. I know from my boating days that zinc has magical properties preventing rust (it becomes a sacrificial anode) and even if it gets scratched or nicked the proximity of the zinc protects the nearby bare metal. My worry is that I'll have to drill access holes in frame members, and those will let in moisture. I would love to use one of the metal etch products to passivate the inside of the frame, but I'm afraid I could never totally dry them out, and they're water based I think. I'm thinking they'd be ideal for the outside of the frame though, If I decided to paint the outside. I could almost convince myself that a metal etch followed by a good chassis paint with Zinc could be the best solution for the outside of the frame. There's no question powder coating is the toughest coating, but if you do manage to scratch it, the bare metal will rust. I'll probably stick with powder coating on the outside, but I could see doing the insides with the Eastwood product and then follow up a week or two later with the KBS product to find it's way into any nooks and crannys that the eastwood coating didn't reach. From what I can see in the videos, the KBS product goes in wet, and can be sealed in as a rust preventer.

[Duster]

If the satin black is unacceptable as a color that is a problem, but a solvable problem. As others have said get a bare chassis and take it somewhere to be coated with the powder coating color of your choice. The money you save plus a few bucks more should cover it.

If you have welding changes in mind that you feel will enhance the build then engineer your way through the changes on your bare frame. The cost to powder coat your new and improved frame isn't going to change a wit at that point unless you welded a trailer onto the car.

In the building process a scratch or a ding to the frame is frustrating regardless. I think from my experience that PC will do a better job of surviving it then any other applied paint coating. Only PC is a baked on finish. But regardless of your painted coating you will need to repair that scratch if it is truly that important and visable an area. Most of those repairs will not look very satisfactory long term. Besides, as I have completed more and more of my car I see less and less of the frame.

Good luck

[ggunter]

Powder coating is a must in my book, for $499 from FFR it’s a nobrainer . The time you spend painting and prepping you could be building the car plus it’s just a major PITA.

[F-5-R]

How about we ask FFR if they can give us a stainless steel chassis option? :D Kirkham does it... I would rather look at a SS chassis than painted steel anyway.

[rich grsc]

Go buy a Kirkham then.:rolleyes:

[GThompson]

”Instead, I first tried applying POR 15 to a cleaned up frame but it would not adhere properly. I then had the frame sandblasted completely and then applied POR 15 and a top coat of Eastwood chassis gloss black. It all turned out very well and I believe it is as durable as powder coat, if not quite as good looking. Several times since I have dinged the frame and the POR 15 did not chip off at all. The down side was that it was very time consuming to do all of this and it turned out to be quite a bit more expensive than powder coating. I would not recommend it.

I used POR on my Daytona and had it adhere VERY well. Did you use their cleaner and etching product first? The etch makes it look like it say in the ocean for a while but it gives the POR something to really bite into.

I went with POR because I added grounding nuts to the frame (2 in front and 2 in the rear for lighting grounds, one in front for the battery ground, and one under the dash for a grounding bar for the dash switches), modified the mounts for the fuel tank to raise it 1-1/2”, added some mounts to the frame for some eye-bolts to run the parking brake cables through, added a 1” square tube for a dead pedal, modified one of the tubes under the dash for better clearance for the brake pedal, and welded on new mounts for a modified Subaru console-mounted parking brake setup. If I had the powder-coat, all the patching woul have looked worse than the POR does.

Anyway, your car, your choices. Good luck on your build!!

[F-5-R]

LOL not an option ;)...but even Kirkham (https://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/price427kms.shtml) offers it as an option...its just under $5,000. Well worth it IMO. I'm sure Factory Five "could" offer that option in a cost effective way...maybe $3,500? Is it necessary, no but "necessary" is not why we build/own these in the first place. :D

[Straversi]

How about we ask FFR if they can give us a stainless steel chassis option? :D Kirkham does it... I would rather look at a SS chassis than painted steel anyway.

I've posted this before, but this is a one-off replica built by a guy in AZ (as told to me by the owner). Stainless frame all polished.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=98854&d=1544488644

Whatever makes you happy, I guess.

-Steve

[F-5-R]

:p oh yeah!