Someone come up with a list of useable models.

[Cobra Cory]

Just a list of which model cars can be used as a donor. And model years of course.
This would help us potential looker/shoppers to figure out which is the best car to look for....
I know there is another post on this, I am just saying when the final chassis is done, put up a list so we can look for something to use.
Right now it is all just conjecture as to what is going to be usable. I don't want to buy something and it be no good.
:D

[PhyrraM]

This list is speculation, but if you looking for a list of cars that are basically the same from an engineering/swappability stand point...

'90-'94 Subaru Legacy, original chassis that debut the new Subaru 'corporate' chassis and the EJ series of motor.

'93-'01 Subaru Impreza, smaller version of the Legacy chassis. Almost 100% interchangable, just shorter wheelbase. The first WRXs were on this chassis, but never in USA.

'95-'99 Subaru Legacy, first major update, but still almost everything is interchangable. First adaptation of the Legacy to make the Outback.

'97-'02 Subaru Forester, A raised Impreza wagon. Based on the '93-'01 Impreza.

'00-'04 Subaru Legacy, The front half of the car is still on the corporate chassis, but the rear uses a new multilink setup. Making it the first in the line not 100% compatable.

'02-'07 Subaru Impreza, The bad boy. First USA WRX version and the first USA turbo since the '91-'94 Legacy SS model. Sedans have a wider track, wagons are the same as everything in the list above. STIs have a 6 speed trans and Brembos.

'03-'08 Subaru Forester, A new raised Impreza wagon. This time a turbo is available. Based on the '02-'07 Impreza.

'04-'06 Subaru Baja, Based on the '00-'04 Legacy, with the multi-link rear suspension.... and a bed.

'05+ Legacy and '08+Impreza, '09 Forester... total chassis update...the drivetrain should be useable, but not much else I would guess.


Footnotes:
There was an '92-'97 SVX with a 3.3liter 230HP H6. The motor has the same bell housing and motor mounts...bolts right up to any of the transmissions. The rest of the car was a departure and is likely unusable.
There are also 3.0 and 3.6 H6s from 200-260HP in newer cars that would also work.

[Imp]

Good list. I'll 2nd it. It really has been pretty much the same since the 90's with a few tweaks here and there.

--kC

[Kasmodean]

I love the idea of a Subaru based car. WRXs are fast and much cheaper than corvettes. However, I have a couple of concerns in regards to this donor list and design. I only have a minimum knowledge of Subarus so maybe my concerns aren't really that big of a deal, but here they are.

First, aren't all recent Subarus all-wheel drive? What transmission we going to be using to turn an AWD car into RWD? If a single donor is desired, this might shoehorn us into very few 2WD models. I would be aiming to get a 02-07 WRX as they have engines that can make tons of horsepower and aren't as expensive as the STIs. But this means I will need another car's transmission.

Second, I hope the design of the car that comes from this magazine contest takes performance into account. There needs to be a place to put intercoolers that allows adequate airflow for cooling. Running the intercooler piping from the mid engine to the front of a car would create a lot of turbo lag. How much air enters side scoops like the ones on the GTM? This car will definitely need large side scoops or F1 style rear intake scoop. Remember the stock hood scoops on the factory cars aren't good enough to adequately cool a modified engine's intercooler. Tuners move the intercooler to the bumper area.

[Dave Smith]

Jim will get annoyed with me, but I'll have him address this in the morning. Good questions and I dont know how much is already strictly configured.

Dave

[Kasmodean]

Looks like Subaru only released 2WD trannies for the impreza in the 1993-96 model years. Engines that mated with the 2WD tranny were non-turbo. Of course this is only for the impreza, not sure about the other cars. Looks like a bit of engine/tranny swapping might be in order.

Another question that comes to mind, not directly related to the FFR car but in general, is how much HP can the 2WD tranny handle versus the AWD and how much aftermarket support is available for these 2WD trannies? I am crossing my fingers cause I think I know the answer, but I will start searching now :)

[PhyrraM]

The AWD transmissions can be converted. There are already numerous companies that offer parts.

The basic gear train is the same in AWD 5speeds and FWD 5speeds. There have been upgrades, but most can be backdated to the FWD transmissions.

[Kc_Shane]

I am already looking for a Subaru donor. So if you could help us with exectly we are looking for that would be great. I'll get some mods done and be ready for the new kit.

[BrandonDrums]

Correct, Subaru 5MT's can easily be converted to "FWD" for a few hundred bucks. You can also spend less than 400 to get a LSD which is nice becuase the 5MT front diff is not limited slip which will hinder performance.

Any 2003-2007 Forrester and 2002-2007 Impreza with the 5mt can be a donor. GC series imprezas have slightly different suspension components which if used on the FFR chassis would require multiple bolt point options on the space-frame. That's assuming the FFR subie project utilizes lower control-arms and struts from the subaru donor.

Outside of that, ANY subaru dating back to 1990 with a 5mt has the same basic engine and transmission mounting points and dimensions. Brake components are also rather interchangeable.

That being said, I bet some of the suspension components will be used considering FFR's target price. 02-07 imprezas and 03-07 foresters will have to be used to standardize suspension mounting configurations to a 3rd party chassis. Strut tophats bolt configs, lower control arm mounting points and bushing brackets, spring perches etc. are the same on only those models.

Legacy-based subarus have different mounting configurations

Also, Impreza STI's would not be a good donor for this kit. The 6MT transmission's dimensions, weight, gear ratios and complexity would make it extremely difficult and expensive to convert into a 2wd transmission. The 5MT is much more available dating back nearly 20 years and more simple to work on from a home garage standpoint.

[Kasmodean]

The AWD transmissions can be converted. There are already numerous companies that offer parts.

The basic gear train is the same in AWD 5speeds and FWD 5speeds. There have been upgrades, but most can be backdated to the FWD transmissions.

Correct, Subaru 5MT's can easily be converted to "FWD" for a few hundred bucks. You can also spend less than 400 to get a LSD which is nice becuase the 5MT front diff is not limited slip which will hinder performance.

Any 2003-2007 Forrester and 2002-2007 Impreza with the 5mt can be a donor. GC series imprezas have slightly different suspension components which if used on the FFR chassis would require multiple bolt point options on the space-frame. That's assuming the FFR subie project utilizes lower control-arms and struts from the subaru donor.

Outside of that, ANY subaru dating back to 1990 with a 5mt has the same basic engine and transmission mounting points and dimensions. Brake components are also rather interchangeable.

That being said, I bet some of the suspension components will be used considering FFR's target price. 02-07 imprezas and 03-07 foresters will have to be used to standardize suspension mounting configurations to a 3rd party chassis. Strut tophats bolt configs, lower control arm mounting points and bushing brackets, spring perches etc. are the same on only those models.

Legacy-based subarus have different mounting configurations

Also, Impreza STI's would not be a good donor for this kit. The 6MT transmission's dimensions, weight, gear ratios and complexity would make it extremely difficult and expensive to convert into a 2wd transmission. The 5MT is much more available dating back nearly 20 years and more simple to work on from a home garage standpoint.

Sound like music to my ears. Any ideas of power handling capability when using a converted 2WD? I know the AWD are good for ungodly amounts of hp but that is spread to all four wheels.

Time to start watching the market for a subaru.

[Oppenheimer]

Any ideas of power handling capability when using a converted 2WD? I know the AWD are good for ungodly amounts of hp but that is spread to all four wheels.


Same transmission, but switched to 2WD, should handle more HP than when it was AWD. What puts stress on the drivetrain is all that AWD traction. Dump the clutch at revs, all 4 tires hook up, the trans and diffs are all taking a beating. Switch to 2WD, and you don't have the same traction, so less stress. Drop nearly 1.4K pounds, and its even less stress on the drivetrain.

I don't foresee any real trans issues with this kit (assuming yours is good to start with, which may not always be the case).

[spaceywilly]

2002 WRX transmissions are not that great for anything over stock power. In 03 they switched to wider gears. I'd stay away from the 2002 tranmission if possible. The other WRX transmissions are fairly reliable but not great for lots of hp, and of course have an open front diff. I think the STi 6 speeds would be the best option, they are rock solid and already have an LSD. Also, the DCCD center diff unit probably has some resale value. They also shift a lot smoother than the WRX transmissions. They are expensive though, and about 80lbs heavier, although removing the unnecessary center diff components should help with that.

[BrandonDrums]

2002 WRX transmissions are not that great for anything over stock power. In 03 they switched to wider gears. I'd stay away from the 2002 tranmission if possible. The other WRX transmissions are fairly reliable but not great for lots of hp, and of course have an open front diff. I think the STi 6 speeds would be the best option, they are rock solid and already have an LSD. Also, the DCCD center diff unit probably has some resale value. They also shift a lot smoother than the WRX transmissions. They are expensive though, and about 80lbs heavier, although removing the unnecessary center diff components should help with that.

True but only for folks that dump the clutch. I know plenty of examples of 02-03 wrx 5mt's still running with 350+ whp with well over 100k on them. It's how you drive them. Subaru never had a problem with broken transmissions on the pre USDM wrx's in all the other markets; Oceana, Europe, Asia etc. Once the WRX made it to the US in 02, people started drag racing and street racing them and were blowing transmissions left and right hence the wider gears in the following years. American's abuse their cars so much more than the bulk of the developed world, we love going fast in a straight line.

In 2wd fashion and shedding over 1000 lbs like in this kit no one need worry about shredding the gearset on a 5mt unless they are pushing 300+ whp, running race comps and are side-stepping the clutch at 5 grand on every gear change while missing shifts and grinding the cogs. The tires are just going to break loose with this configuration....which is incredible fun.


Sound like music to my ears. Any ideas of power handling capability when using a converted 2WD? I know the AWD are good for ungodly amounts of hp but that is spread to all four wheels.

Time to start watching the market for a subaru.

As it's been pointed out, the AWD systems actually go through more stress since all 4 wheels get torque. Early USDM wrx transmissions are notorious for failure when pushing more than stock power. Usually the result of abuse. Conscientious drivers don't experience these failures, even with more than stock HP. With fuel mods and a good turbo it's easy to get 300+ whp somewhat reliably out of a Ej20 or Ej25 engine. You'll just need high-quality oil and good engine management. 300 whp is usually where the OEM WRX tranmission starts to be at risk, in 2wd form for such a lightweight car, I'd estimate that "at risk" figure to increase to 350+ whp.

So if you want to look for a donor, given the availability of WRX's on the market, you could probably easily find a wrecked wrx and just purchase the required parts for cheap. www.car-part.com I have a 2.0L from a 2005 with just a spun rod bearing for sale. I'll ship it to you for $400 and you can just put in new internals and gaskets and be good to go. You can also troll the many WRX and Subaru forums for used parts. With an engine, tranny and harness you can get nearly all the suspension components you'd probably need from folks that are swapping them out for aftermarket stuff.

Subaru parts are CHEAP.

Anyone looking to stock up for their project, message me for 2005 WRX OEM Springs, intercooler, engine, sway-bars, exhaust, control-arm busings, brake calipers, rotors, wheels, side-view mirrors, boost control solenoid, injectors, fuel pump, and soon I'll have a 16g turbo available. You can get a head start on your Factory Fubaru.

;-)

[spaceywilly]

Yeah I drive an 02 that is at about 260 hp and 105k miles and the transmission is fine, but I have never launched it or done anything really stupid to it. It seems like with most of the stories that you read about people busting their transmission it turns out they couldn't drive or dumped the clutch on a regular basis. That being said I would love to have a transmission in my car that I knew could take a beating and handle whatever power I could throw at it. The 02 tranny will probably be fine but I'm just letting people know that it is known to be fragile and 03+ is a safer bet.

[Benji]

Not wanting to be rude but I completely and utterly disagree with the notion that 'dumping the clutch' or 'launching hard' is abuse.

I firmly believe that the gearbox should have been engineered to be able to withstand what I would deam as use for which this car (or whatever car) should be engineered for. It's a sports car, it has 4wd which is particularly great for getting off the line quickly with, are you saying I can't use it how for what it is supposidly designed for?

And no, doing the above is NOT a sign that you are unable to drive properly, provided the driveline survives I'd get off the line significantly quicker than you all the time every time if you subscribe to the other idea that you should be treating it with kid gloves all the time.

[PhyrraM]

Designed for quick launches, yes. Designed for drag launches, no.

It's no different than the american manufactures when they started phasing in overdrive automatics -- A few teething problems at first, but it was sorted out over the years. Like the AOD/THxxx-R4 series, you can get an earlier unit and take care of it, or you can $pay$ for a later unit.

[Steve91T]

Dumping the clutch is bad....even car shows that review them will say that.

Look at the Nissan GTR. It has a launch button. Push it and then floor it. Revs climb to a high RPM then off you go. But soon after they started selling them, cars were coming back with broken trannys. Then next year, Nissan realized it couldn't take the abuse and lowered the launch RPM.

Honestly though, light, rwd car.....it'd be pretty tough to break even the weak WRX trannys.

Steve

[Imp]

Not wanting to be rude but I completely and utterly disagree with the notion that 'dumping the clutch' or 'launching hard' is abuse.

I firmly believe that the gearbox should have been engineered to be able to withstand what I would deam as use for which this car (or whatever car) should be engineered for. It's a sports car, it has 4wd which is particularly great for getting off the line quickly with, are you saying I can't use it how for what it is supposidly designed for?

And no, doing the above is NOT a sign that you are unable to drive properly, provided the driveline survives I'd get off the line significantly quicker than you all the time every time if you subscribe to the other idea that you should be treating it with kid gloves all the time.Dropping a clutch is abuse. It introduces shock to all the components greater than they were designed for. The WRX is not a sports car and never was marketed as a sports car. It's an economy car with power and AWD. The STi? Closer. And that's built to handle the extra stock power.

I had a 1st allocation '02 WRX wagon that was autocrossed nationally for both Solo and ProSolo. ProSolo = drag tree launches. Header, Uppipe, Downpipe, single cat, 2.5" exhaust. Stock ECU, no tuning (wasn't really needed as I wasn't making more than 250ish HP). So if I were to say the car could take a launch, it could take a launch, but it was all sidestepped launches, never, ever dumped the clutch, unless it was on snow or sand where I *knew* the tires could all break free.

It was 2nd gear that was prone to most WRX 'tranny failures'. Again, hamfisting a shift too hard while full throttle was the issue in most of the cases. With too much traction, the grip of the tires would be almost 'too good' and with no way for the tires to slip, you have to start working back to find the weakest point. In this case... 2nd gear. All the shafts could take it, the differentials could take it, the clutch didn't even slip, so, what's left on the 1-2 shift? 2nd gear. All the power the car was making goes right back to it, and *pop*. 60k miles with about 150+ drag launches, never an issue.

The trannies got a bad rap.

--kC
Drive better.

[Calamity J]

True, they got a bad rap.. but thanks to all of the bad drivers there are a bunch of WRX transmissions out there with PPG hardened gears and/or dog boxes. One of those would make a terrific find for someone planning on building a wild track machine.

My '08 WRX was putting about 300ft-lbs into the gearbox without issue (and nothing more than a generic tune). That car would put me and 3 passengers squarely into the headrests below 3000 rpm. Can't wait to see how that turbo rush feels with half the weight.:D

[Kasmodean]

As it's been pointed out, the AWD systems actually go through more stress since all 4 wheels get torque. Early USDM wrx transmissions are notorious for failure when pushing more than stock power. Usually the result of abuse. Conscientious drivers don't experience these failures, even with more than stock HP. With fuel mods and a good turbo it's easy to get 300+ whp somewhat reliably out of a Ej20 or Ej25 engine. You'll just need high-quality oil and good engine management. 300 whp is usually where the OEM WRX tranmission starts to be at risk, in 2wd form for such a lightweight car, I'd estimate that "at risk" figure to increase to 350+ whp.

;-)

I thank you for your help, but I didn't get the answer I was looking for because I asked the wrong question. :) I'll try again, I realize the gearset will see much less abuse in a 2WD configuration as the gearset handles all the power all the time (less weight + less traction = less stress).

What I meant to ask is how is the front differential at handling 100% power? Usually the front and rear diffs split power 50/50. By converting to 2WD you are putting twice the power through only one diff if you remain at stock levels. I know of other cars that have differentials that run into problems with added power. Just curious how the subaru's diff holds up when you ask it to do twice the work. If you start modding the engine to 300 HP, than the diff is seeing almost 3 times the power it was meant for.

P.S. By no means am I trying to be a naysayer, I am just asking questions so I can form a clear picture in my head of the possibilities. I am already sold on the merits of this car.

[bauhaus]

Good point and well said Kasmodean - I was wondering this as well.

[PhyrraM]

The original trans was developed with a FWD model that had all the power going through the diff. I do not know, what the max power Subaru sent through a FWD model with a 5-speed.

However, Subaru did sell the SVX with a 3.3 liter 230HP H6 in a FWD model. This was with an automatic transmission, but the differentials are of very similar size and design. The SVX weighed about 3500 pounds.

It's not empirical evidence, but I wouldn't worry too much about the diff.

[BrandonDrums]

No problemo man, I see what your saying.

The Front diff will need to be replaced anyway if you want limited-slip abilities. You can pick your poison, there are quite a few front LSD's for sale for the 5MT ranging from about $350 to well over 2k.

Regardless, the front diff ring gear almost never fails first, it's the center diff or one of the driving gears more frequently unless the front diff gear backlash is set incorrectly or junk from another broken gear makes its way up to the front diff section. Putting all of the power through a single diff probably equates to only a little bit more stress on the ring gear and worm cog given the geometry of the situation. The ring gear and worm cog have MUCH larger teeth than any of the driving gears.

See below, the large ring gear in the bottom right of the transmission below is what is in question. Compare the width and thickness of the teeth compared to the remainder of the gears on the left.

No worries there.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/-R2uibRN3dc/0.jpg

[Benji]

I fully understand that it causes increased wear on the clutch and the why's of the stress on the driveline but to call it abuse/bad driving is where I have the issue.

When you brake really hard is that abuse because you are wearing out the brakes faster than normal?

The whole R35 GTR situation was completely absurd and is even the very point of what I am trying to say, their mistake wasn't having launch control, their mistake was not building it strong even to do what it was designed to do in the first place and then to deny people their warranties? I don't blame people being livid at Nissan, I would have been worse! I don't care what it said in the manual!

[BrandonDrums]

Maybe this will help. Here's a great thread breaking down how the subaru 5MT AWD transmission works in pretty significant detail.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1404869

Keep in mind the picture above shows the center diff laying face up on the floor mostly out of the shot to the left.

This picture shows someone removing the center diff off of a subaru 5mt
http://images.turbomagazine.com/features/0305tur_wrxgearset05_z.jpg

There are 2 ways to "lock" the center diff. You can purchase a 2wd conversion adapter that replaces the center diff. http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?parentid=3&parent2id=14&parent3id=31&productid=72

OR, you can take the diff out, weld a bead around the diff like drifters do to de-differentiate the output as explained here
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=104513

Not too bad.

[Imp]

I fully understand that it causes increased wear on the clutch and the why's of the stress on the drivelineYou don't understand correctly. There was no increased wear on the clutch. The clutch in that car is a very good clutch. If you re-read what I wrote, the clutch wasn't slipping in the shifts, therefore, it was gripping and not wearing, and transferred this power to the gears, which *aren't* wear items.

To fix/patch this issue of blowing gears, they put a clutch delay valve in the late 2002/early 2003 and on models to bleed off pressure to help eliminate the shock to the driveline. It was a patch, not a fix (and easily defeated by removing the valve in question).


but to call it abuse/bad driving is where I have the issue.

When you brake really hard is that abuse because you are wearing out the brakes faster than normal?Are you implying that a driveline/gears are wear items like brakes and clutches are? You can take issue with it all you want. It is what it is.

--kC

[C.Tree]

How are the ECUs to work with? Say I have a forester, impreza or legacy motor and trans (non-turbo); can that ecu be updated to a WRX turbo ecu? Whats needed to hack the ecu? Any kits available(turbo, intake, exhaust) to convert a non-turbo EJ to turbo? Thanks!

[Benji]

I'm not wanting to be arguementative but you've assumed I was referring to your situation/clutch specifically, I wasn't I was just infering that clutches in general will wear faster with harder starts, I think it would be stretching it even for me to consider the driveline a wear item :D

Brakes and clutches are fair game though, some people go 100,000 on one clutch.....

[Benji]

How are the ECUs to work with? Say I have a forester, impreza or legacy motor and trans (non-turbo); can that ecu be updated to a WRX turbo ecu? Whats needed to hack the ecu? Any kits available(turbo, intake, exhaust) to convert a non-turbo EJ to turbo? Thanks!

In regards to converting from non-turbo to turbo I imagine the guys in the know would suggest that it was probably cheaper to just start with a turbo donor than converting.

[PhyrraM]

ECUs and wiring are one of the areas that Subaru had tons of variations.

Generally speaking, if you want a turbo plan to either use a standalone or get a harness from a compatible turbo model. Adding a turbo, using factory parts will basically entail swapping over to a turbo harness anyways. So if you go the donor car path, there is really no issue. If you piece your parts together, get the harness/ECU with the motor.

The upside is that if you use a factory turbo harness/ECU from '02+ they are fully cracked. There are many tuning options using the factory ECU and generally no reason to consider a standalone. If you have the skills to tune, there are even free/open source tuning options out there.

There is one major exception..If your planning on going without a full donor, you can fairly cheaply get early Subaru turbo motors ('90-'96ish) as imports from Japanese wreckers. The harnesses from '90-'94 Subaru Legacies can be adapted fairly quickly to run these motors and ECUs. That's the only real exception.

[C.Tree]

Thanks PhyrraM. Not many WRX wrecks where I live so looks like I have to go the piece meal route. Who's that supplier that sells the early turbo motors? The 90-94 legacy harness: is that from a turbo or no-turbo legacy? I just don't think we have that much turbos in HI. Thanks!

[Hondaslayer]

ECUs and wiring are one of the areas that Subaru had tons of variations.

Generally speaking, if you want a turbo plan to either use a standalone or get a harness from a compatible turbo model. Adding a turbo, using factory parts will basically entail swapping over to a turbo harness anyways. So if you go the donor car path, there is really no issue. If you piece your parts together, get the harness/ECU with the motor.

The upside is that if you use a factory turbo harness/ECU from '02+ they are fully cracked. There are many tuning options using the factory ECU and generally no reason to consider a standalone. If you have the skills to tune, there are even free/open source tuning options out there.

There is one major exception..If your planning on going without a full donor, you can fairly cheaply get early Subaru turbo motors ('90-'96ish) as imports from Japanese wreckers. The harnesses from '90-'94 Subaru Legacies can be adapted fairly quickly to run these motors and ECUs. That's the only real exception.

Keep in mind the WRX went to a chipped key in 2006 (2005 for the Forester XT and Impreza STI) and in 2008 (2009 For Forester) they went to a very difficult to by-pass CAN system which would make those model years even less desirable.

Anyway, for the desirable models list, it would be very helpful to have a list of "planned to be needed" components. Will we be using the dash? What about seats, gauge cluster, HVAC etc....... For the largest availability I would plan on 2002 - 2005 WRX sedan. Earlier parts (and later) can work, though those years will give you the best results for the least money.

[BrandonDrums]

How are the ECUs to work with? Say I have a forester, impreza or legacy motor and trans (non-turbo); can that ecu be updated to a WRX turbo ecu? Whats needed to hack the ecu? Any kits available(turbo, intake, exhaust) to convert a non-turbo EJ to turbo? Thanks!

Non-turbo models probably don't have boost control maps in the ECU (I don't think). Some of the ECU's might be the same as turbo models which you can essentially re-flash them with the appropriate map which activates the otherwise disabled boost control features. There are so many variations though it's going to take some digging to know what's compatible and what isn't.

Also, depending on what non-turbo engine you have will also detrmine if it's a good idea to even try boost. You can easily bolt on OEM wrx or STI parts to make an N/A subaru flat 4 turbo since they all essentially are the same with some minor differences. However, cosed deck vs. open decking, rod strength, piston strengh, oiling systems, etc. etc. very and some subaru N/A engines just aren't strong enough to take boost without heavy modification. It will probably be much easier to buy a salvaged turbo longblock and rebuild it than to mess with converting an N/A engine given the availability of parts.

That being said, there are plenty of kits and other ways of making N/A subaru turbo. The ECU's are great to work with and can be fully accessed with less than 100 bucks worth of OBII to USB cables, adapters and opensource software.

ECU Flash can edit ROM files (ECU maps), RomRaider is better for editing ROM Files and tuning, it can't flash but it can data-log every value from the ECU for tuning. You can find links to both programs, tuning forums/recources and stores for cables/equipment at the Open ECU site below.

http://www.openecu.org

Here you can find a great tuning guide centered around Subaru open-source tuning methods and ECU systems.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1626520

Subaru's are such a great platform for a Kit car. The car's are pretty good but it's the community, resources, parts availability Etc. that REALLY separates Subaru from much of the competition.

[C.Tree]

Thanks Brandon for the info!

[TroyLynx]

Can someone till me if this will work. I have chance to get I think it is a 1998 Outback. Will this car be a good donor. 2345

[Mauricio]

Can someone till me if this will work. I have chance to get I think it is a 1998 Outback. Will this car be a good donor. 2345

Since the optimum car is the 02-07 impreza wrx, I would say that it might work, but it might not.

I am not sure of the actual parts that will be needed for the 818. without that, there is now way to know if a particular car makes a good donor, outside of what factory5 has already said.

This outback you are looking at might have the hoodscoop, but is NOT a turbo car. be aware that the only pre-02 cars that are possible turbo donors are the mid 90's legacy SS, but even they are shy'ed away from in the subaru community, for many reasons.

Also of note, is that the wrx had control arms that are approximately1/2" longer than anything before it, including this Outback. This might be an issue.

I would say, stick with the wrx if you want a 100% compatible donor. If not, I would wait to see exactly how much of the car will be needed.

[Mauricio]

Can someone at FFR tell us if the 02+ 2.5RS would make a suitable donor? Its about as close as you can get to a non turbo WRX, and would make a great option for those of us not wanting insane amounts of power. The biggest issues I forsee are the intake & exhuast components.

[Ks2]

personally instead of hunting for a single donor once i have the list of parts i can go to one of many parts suppliers and just buy new for alot of it from 1st subaru parts and subaru parts warehouse to name a few, as for the engine/harness and transmission that can be sourced off ebay quite easily (not sure if i want a JDM 2.0l or a 2.5l USDM STI)

2.5rs shouldn't be too much trouble to put in... exhaust will be a little different but shouldn't be too different

[TroyLynx]

The subaru I am looking at is a 2.5 non turbo. It has a 5 speed manual. 1 owner. Very clean And is very cheaply priced. Does run and drive perfect. I am really not needing the higher power turbo.

[Mauricio]

untill F5 posts a donor parts list, all I can say is look for a WrX. The 2.5i, and 2.5 RS I mentioned earlier are the only cars I would gamble on buying before I knew exactly what parts I need. If the 818 uses a wrx windshield, you will be stuck sittling on the Outback windshield, and stuck looking for a wrx part.
You can take a bare wrx shell, and put every part off of a 2.5 i or RS and bolt it in. You "should" be able to do the same to an 818.

[PhyrraM]

It's not as simple as saying "look for a WRX". WRXs ('02-'07, as so-far specified by FFR) have two distinct widths.

The 4 door sedan is wider by about an inch than the 5 door wagons. The front control arms are different lengths. The rear lateral links are also different lengths. BOTH parts are used on the prototype chassis.

If FFR has made accomodations for both chassis widths, alot of donor possibilities exist (basically anything '89-'07). HOWEVER, if FFR has not recognized or considered this difference then the only appropriate donors will be '02-'07 Impreza SEDANS.

[Ks2]

just in case anyone wanted to find a cheap donor

http://www.salvage-cars-for-sale.info/

i would still go out and look at the car myself... when something says hail damage and has obviously been wrecked rolled and then mauled by a bear from the pictures... so it is better then autotrader at least
http://www.salvage-cars-for-sale.info/salvage/for-sale-subaru-impreza-2004-MjQ4MTI0NDA
man thats one hell of a hail storm that this car drove through to do that....

[TroyLynx]

I hear 2 things. Yes the car will work and no the car won't. It's a 1998 outback with a 2.5 no turbo. other then the control arms. will the motor and 5 speed work. and maybe the hubs. 24582459

[Ks2]

yes, the motor and transmission will fit, with few exceptions (that phyrram can name off) most all subarus have the same mounts and dimensions, subaru isn't one to change what isn't broken

what the concern is, we don't know what else you will need from the car (a complete list) so if you do buy the car you may still be buying a ton of extra stuff you wouldn't have had to otherwise...

so to answer the concern the car will work if you don't mind sourcing (possibly) alot of other parts... if you want all your donor parts from one source it wont...

[PhyrraM]

I hear 2 things. Yes the car will work and no the car won't. It's a 1998 outback with a 2.5 no turbo. other then the control arms. will the motor and 5 speed work. and maybe the hubs. 24582459

Engine and trans have the same mounts and dimensions as a WRX, so that is all comptable. That car will also have a hydraulic clutch so whatever FFR comes up with for that will work. The shifter is very slightly different, but will work with whatever FFR comes up with. You might possibly need a $40 part from Subaru for the shifter.

The control arms are WAGON width, so if the FFR kit will work with a WRX wagon, your good there. Same applies to the CV shafts.

The knuckles are all compatable as-is.

The steering column and rack are basically the same, but small differences might need to be worked out. Shouldn't be anything unsurmountable though.

The wiring is completly different. It should be usable, as all the functions are there. However, any guide for adapting it wouldn't apply.

[TroyLynx]

Thank You PhyrraM for your information. I will get the car. I will drive the car for a year or so. If it won't work for the 818. I will baja it in the cotton fields of Tennessee.

[StatGSR]

^ thats what i was going to say, if you actually plan on using the car before ripping it apart go for it. the worst that could happen is that you could sell it if something changes, but if you were going to buy it to sit on it and rip it apart i would just hold out till we know more specifics.

btw, check out www.sl-i.net its a great forum for second gen legacys.

[wooward]

Since the optimum car is the 02-07 impreza wrx, I would say that it might work, but it might not.

I am not sure of the actual parts that will be needed for the 818. without that, there is now way to know if a particular car makes a good donor, outside of what factory5 has already said.

This outback you are looking at might have the hoodscoop, but is NOT a turbo car. be aware that the only pre-02 cars that are possible turbo donors are the mid 90's legacy SS, but even they are shy'ed away from in the subaru community, for many reasons.

Also of note, is that the wrx had control arms that are approximately1/2" longer than anything before it, including this Outback. This might be an issue.

I would say, stick with the wrx if you want a 100% compatible donor. If not, I would wait to see exactly how much of the car will be needed.

How do you know that 02-07 WRX is optimum? Was this posted somewhere by FFR. I haven't seen it anywhere. I'm starting to look for a donor and would like to hear what FFR has to say.

[PhyrraM]

How do you know that 02-07 WRX is optimum? Was this posted somewhere by FFR. I haven't seen it anywhere. I'm starting to look for a donor and would like to hear what FFR has to say.

Yes, it was posted somewhere - I don't recall exactly when or where, but it was a staement by FFR. The prototype donor is a '06 WRX sedan.

However, there has been no indication of what "width" car is ideal. The '02-'07 wagons and sedans have slightly different widths. FFR has claimed that both will make acceptable donors, but has not stated exactly how they are dealing with the differences. *I* theorize that fully adjustable upper control arms are acceptable and what they are most likely doing, but nothing from FFR themselves yet.

[Silvertop]

Yes, it was posted somewhere - I don't recall exactly when or where, but it was a staement by FFR. The prototype donor is a '06 WRX sedan.

However, there has been no indication of what "width" car is ideal. The '02-'07 wagons and sedans have slightly different widths. FFR has claimed that both will make acceptable donors, but has not stated exactly how they are dealing with the differences. *I* theorize that fully adjustable upper control arms are acceptable and what they are most likely doing, but nothing from FFR themselves yet.

Seconding your confirmation that the '02 to '07 WRX is the target donor, as stated by FFR elsewhere on this site. (I don't remember exactly where it is either, but I know it's there) By extension, because the WRX is really just a turbocharged Impreza, that means that ANY Impreza of that vintage will also serve, if the builder does not feel the need for a turbocharger, or would perhaps even rather have a naturally aspirated engine. A 2.5RS would thus be also a nice choice, though not quite "crazy fast".

I know that's not exactly front-page news, but it may be useful information to Wooward and others who have not yet read every post on this site.

[wooward]

Seconding your confirmation that the '02 to '07 WRX is the target donor, as stated by FFR elsewhere on this site. (I don't remember exactly where it is either, but I know it's there) By extension, because the WRX is really just a turbocharged Impreza, that means that ANY Impreza of that vintage will also serve, if the builder does not feel the need for a turbocharger, or would perhaps even rather have a naturally aspirated engine. A 2.5RS would thus be also a nice choice, though not quite "crazy fast".

I know that's not exactly front-page news, but it may be useful information to Wooward and others who have not yet read every post on this site.

It is useful information to me. Since this is my first kit car build, I'm hoping that the 818 will be very simple to build. I'm basically looking for a kit that is basically paint by numbers easy. I'm able to do basic maintenance to cars but have never removed an engine or transmission. I'm also hoping that my 2 car garage will be enough room to build this car.

Is it better to buy a wrecked WRX or a running one?

On a side note, What do I do with the donor car once I remove all the parts I need? It won't be on wheels so I'm not sure how I will move it... Finding space for this project is something I have not fully figured out.

[bromikl]

Based on other FFR kits, can anyone guess if we will we be reusing the donor's wire harness?

[crobin4]

Based on other FFR kits, can anyone guess if we will we be reusing the donor's wire harness?

My guess is, Absolutely we will be using the factory wiring harness. It will likely be modified for lighting and certain sections will be deleted ( power windows, mirrors, stuff in the rear doors ). But other than shortening I think the entire harness will used.

[Silvertop]

It is useful information to me. Since this is my first kit car build, I'm hoping that the 818 will be very simple to build. I'm basically looking for a kit that is basically paint by numbers easy. I'm able to do basic maintenance to cars but have never removed an engine or transmission. I'm also hoping that my 2 car garage will be enough room to build this car.

Is it better to buy a wrecked WRX or a running one?

On a side note, What do I do with the donor car once I remove all the parts I need? It won't be on wheels so I'm not sure how I will move it... Finding space for this project is something I have not fully figured out.

It is certainly "better" to buy a running car rather than a wreck. You know what you are getting. However, it will be significantly more expensive. Personally, I will shop for a rollover that still runs at least enough to determine the condition of the drive train and the major suspension components. But I know I'm taking a risk. A complete, running and drivable car is safer. But don't buy anything that has been in a fire.....

I worry about getting rid of the hulk after I've stripped all the components off, too. If there are no salvageable parts left, it will cost money to have it hauled away to a scrapyard. It will be necessary to find a tow service with tilt-flatbed unit (That is not hard, they're out there). They will just winch the car on. However, if there are still salvageable parts (body parts, windows, whatever wasn't used in the build -- one may be able to get it hauled away for free, or even get some money back. Depends on the car, obviously.

[Draco-REX]

SpecialStage.com to sell good condition shells. Rally guys always want straight shells.

I'm curious if FFR will post a list of the parts the donor car will give up. I'd like to know if I should get a complete car, or if I'm getting enough custom parts that perusing the part-outs on various forums will be enough. I have an engine source, a transmission shell is easy, aftermarket seats and gauges, etc...

[wooward]

SpecialStage.com to sell good condition shells. Rally guys always want straight shells.

I'm curious if FFR will post a list of the parts the donor car will give up. I'd like to know if I should get a complete car, or if I'm getting enough custom parts that perusing the part-outs on various forums will be enough. I have an engine source, a transmission shell is easy, aftermarket seats and gauges, etc...

They usually post a list of parts. The question really is when though. Hurry FFR. I want to get started!

[PhyrraM]

They usually post a list of parts. The question really is when though. Hurry FFR. I want to get started!

I'm sure they will as soon as everything is buttoned down. Styling wise, I bet they are still dealing with things like windshields and lights. Mechanical wise, I bet they still need to pin down CV axles, brake lines, wiring harness and such.

That being said, I'd love to see the partial list they must already have.

[crobin4]

I'm sure they will as soon as everything is buttoned down. Styling wise, I bet they are still dealing with things like windshields and lights. Mechanical wise, I bet they still need to pin down CV axles, brake lines, wiring harness and such.

That being said, I'd love to see the partial list they must already have.

+1 and I'm VERY curious about the Halfshafts.

[PhyrraM]

+1 and I'm VERY curious about the Halfshafts.

Yeah. I'm *guessing* they will either provide hybrid axles with the kit OR provide custom shafts to fit the front inner joints to the rear outer joints.

I'm also guessing that the "leftover" front outer joint will be reinserted in the front hubs to hold them together. However, simple bolts, nuts, and washers of the proper size would do that job just as well.