fletch's question thread

[fletch]

I thought it might be a good idea to sequester my questions here rather than clutter the build thread. I'll give it a go and we'll see how it works.

Question 1: When should I buy wheels and tires?
I'm thinking it would be valuable to have them now as I'm sorting out suspension, steering rack, ride height, clearance. On the other hand, I'd rather not have to store them and I'd prefer to buy the tires nearer to the time they'll be used. What do you guys say?

[Ajzride]

If you don’t want to buy them now, you can cut plywood circles to diameter of your desired tire size to set ride height. Just don’t roll it around much. That also won’t help you with checking clearances.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I thought it might be a good idea to sequester my questions here rather than clutter the build thread. I'll give it a go and we'll see how it works.

Question 1: When should I buy wheels and tires?
I'm thinking it would be valuable to have them now as I'm sorting out suspension, steering rack, ride height, clearance. On the other hand, I'd rather not have to store them and I'd prefer to buy the tires nearer to the time they'll be used. What do you guys say?

I would wait until you really need them.
1. good summer tires rubber get harder with age.
2. you may change your mine on wheels and tire between now and when you really need them.
3. As you find out how tight tire clearances are. You my change you mind on tire wheel size.
4. wheel offset is real important. easy to start with a 48mm stock subie wheel and play with spacers.

I mount a set of stock Subaru wheels, while my good summer tires are in warm storage.

115851 115852

[DSR-3]

Another vote for wait until you need them. 'Not sure where you are in your build, but I didn't even put suspension on my car for 2 years- it just gets in the way in my tight space and when doing other assembly.

[sgarrett]

I also say wait. They get in the way. I ordered FFR wheels with my kit but they are in the basement. I'm using the donor wheels while doing the dirty work. If you aren't going to vary greatly from the recommendations in the back of the manual then just wait.

[aquillen]

I too bought tires sooner than I should have, they were on sale so.... and who knows how many times I moved the wheels and tires around to get them out of the way, and I have a lot of space. Until the car is almost drivable they are just in the way on it.

[lance corsi]

I had to buy tires & wheels first since I cut off my suspension mounting points in order to provide a clean slate for my c-4 Vette suspension. Preferably work from the outside inward when designing suspension pickups. I needed wheels & tires to check for clearances. I hope my tires don’t get too old before I finish. Today marks 4 years since I received my kit.

[fletch]

Thank you all for the input on wheels & tires. I'm still early in the build and will definitely keep the stock donor wheels for playing with until nearer the end.

Question 2: Many of you have used type N engine mounts to keep the powerplant from moving around too much. What mounts did you buy and where did you get them?

[Hobby Racer]

Thank you all for the input on wheels & tires. I'm still early in the build and will definitely keep the stock donor wheels for playing with until nearer the end.

Question 2: Many of you have used type N engine mounts to keep the powerplant from moving around too much. What mounts did you buy and where did you get them?

Group N mounts work very well. I got mine at Flatiron Tuning but they are available from most any Subaru performance shop. Find the best price and go for it.

[fletch]

Last week I got a look at Frank818's blue beauty. One thing I really liked about his car were the seats that hinge forward. These were from his 1992 VW Corrado, a two door car. For him, this feature has proved very useful since he's had to troubleshoot fuel sender issues several times. :( In each instance, he didn't remove the seats; he just tilted them forward. :D

Our car will have an empty space behind the seats since we're using a front mount gas tank. I'd like to be able to use that space for stoarge - a laptop bag or other small items should fit just fine.

Can anyone recommend a seat that might be suitable?
Our constraints:

I'm 6'1". My son's 5'10" and still growing. We need a seat that sits low.
We're on a budget. Think "something that can be found in a junkyard."

We've already spent considerable time trying to lower the OEM WRX seats as AZPete did. But I'd gladly chuck those seats and that work out the window for seats that hinge. Thoughts?

[Ajzride]

BMW e21 if you can find them.

[fletch]

AJ, thanks for the suggestion. I've put a ton of hours into making the Subaru seats work and I think I may have done it, even retaining the sliders. More to report in a week once I confirm.

[fletch]

Got both OEM seats mounted with factory sliders...
Still too tall. :(
More work to do. Might still be possible, or I might have to ditch the sliders.
Either way, I did find a way to get the OEM seats to tip forward much farther for access behind.

[sgarrett]

After many many many many many hours of trying to perfect the use of the factory sliders in the 818 I gave up. Now that I have the OEM seats in (I wanted the comfort of a real seat rather than the performance of a racing seat) I realize that they are the optimal location for someone of roughly average height. Maybe around 5'8" or so. And that is with them pushed as far back as they can go. The sliders would only move the seat forward. That is not the adjustment I need so I just ditched the sliders since they won't provide any value to me. Also helped the seat sit a lot lower.

I have a daughter who is only 5'1" and she can easily drive the car by just putting a pillow behind her when driving...but she doesn't have a license yet and at the rate I am going she will be married with kids of her own living somewhere else by the time I am done with the car!

[Frank818]

Ha! What a bummer. :( All those conclusions are exactly what I mentioned when you came by and we exchanged on seats stuff. Even for me the sliders I used for registration pass could only work fwd! And I'm 5.6.

I know you loved my Corrado Recaro seats, but since that style is probably impossible to find these days, what's next for you? Are you just ditching the sliders and that's it? Are the sliders required for inspection?

[fletch]

Ha! What a bummer. :( All those conclusions are exactly what I mentioned when you came by and we exchanged on seats stuff. Even for me the sliders I used for registration pass could only work fwd! And I'm 5.6.

I know you loved my Corrado Recaro seats, but since that style is probably impossible to find these days, what's next for you? Are you just ditching the sliders and that's it? Are the sliders required for inspection?

Hey Frank! Yes, I know you mentioned all that when we talked. It probably wasn't clear to you how stubborn I am! :-)

After lots of hours, some off-forum whining to AZPete, numerous beers and a few adult words, I decided to ditch the sliders entirely. Afterward, my wife even offered her condolences. Still using the OEM seats, just with much less metal underneath. I suppose the silver lining is I probably saved ~30 lbs - no joke.

Where I live there is no requirement for sliders. In fact, there's a requirement for seatbelts, but none for seats. I'm not making this up.

[sgarrett]

Welcome to the club. Don't ditch the slider bits and pieces quite yet though. I've discovered that there are some very handy metal pieces in there. Especially the steel tubes.

[Frank818]

Brian, I can't say for in da house, but in da garage it's great to be stubborn, it's a highly praised quality when building such a car! Keep it going!

[fletch]

Anyone have an MR2 shifter they’d like to part with?

[Ajzride]

Anyone have an MR2 shifter they’d like to part with?

Yes. I’ve even sandblasted and powder coated it.

[fletch]

Yes. I’ve even sandblasted and powder coated it.

PM sent

[fletch]

Two questions:
1) Does anybody have a pair of sedan seat belts from their donor they’re willing to part with? The wagon belt mounting position interferes with my seat backs.
2) Where is the hip belt anchor point? Not the one with the buckle/latch, but the fixed location on the outboard side of the seat.
Thanks.

[autostang]

The seat belts were a big frustration for me. I had wagon seat belts to start and also wasnt happy with the mounting location. I then got a set of sedan belts. They fit the build much better, but because of the way they mount had issues with the belts locking up frequently. The only way to get them to retract far enough to release was to undo the shoulder mounting point. After dealing with that for a summer I ended up switching to a harness and have been much happier. I think there are some threads about modifying the seat belts, but I didn't want to go down that path. Bottom line is I would recommend looking at harness options before spending a ton of effort on the stock belts.

[Ajzride]

I used these in my mustang, intend to use them again:

https://www.seatbeltsplus.com/product/310PPB.html

[fletch]

autostang, thanks for the feedback. Just to clarify, when you say the belts locked up frequently, do you mean that they would get into “retract-only” mode and would have to be fully retracted before extending again? If so, are you also saying you had to unbolt the shoulder mount point to complete the retraction? If so, that’s a big problem.

AJ, thanks for the suggestion. I was hoping not to spend more money on seatbelts, but if I’m understanding autostang correctly, that seems like a good option.

[flynntuna]

autostang, thanks for the feedback. Just to clarify, when you say the belts locked up frequently, do you mean that they would get into “retract-only” mode and would have to be fully retracted before extending again? If so, are you also saying you had to unbolt the shoulder mount point to complete the retraction? If so, that’s a big problem.

AJ, thanks for the suggestion. I was hoping not to spend more money on seatbelts, but if I’m understanding autostang correctly, that seems like a good option.

This thread might help. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?25460-818S-Seatbelts

I seem to remember that there were other threads too, but they might be buried in a build therad.

[autostang]

Yeah. I would have trouble with them going into the retract only mode. I dont know if everyone has had that problem, but I remember a few others having similar issues when I was at that stage. The aftermarket 3 point belts could be good option.

[Scoobs]

The only way to get them to retract far enough to release was to undo the shoulder mounting point.

I also encountered this problem. My fix was to get a seatbelt extension, basically a foot long piece of belt with metal plates on either end (~$10). This allowed the belt to retract further and unlock the mechanism.

Next step is to get a 4 point harness and bar.

[redbudrr]

There was a post 11/16/2014 by BuzzSkyline "Sedan Seat Belt hack: Tilt sensor delete. I don't know how to copy it and paste so you can search it. I used this method and it solves the problem.

[redbudrr]

Sedan seat belt hack: tilt sensor delete (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16273-Sedan-seat-belt-hack-tilt-sensor-delete) Search this and it should solve your problems.

[sgarrett]

Posts 48 and 49 in my build show what I did for my belts.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?31093-Massachusetts-818C-build/page2

[Scoobs]

Sedan seat belt hack: tilt sensor delete (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16273-Sedan-seat-belt-hack-tilt-sensor-delete) Search this and it should solve your problems.

I needed mine to still function for registration, so that is the work-around i did. Digging into the seatbelt mechanisim probably isn't the safest way either, stuff is there for a reason.

Per regulations 8-15 excerpt
Confirm the operation of each seat belt latch and retractor at driver O.E.M. and CMVSS required seat positions.

c) retractors
Buckle each seatbelt assembly and extend the belt to
test the belt retractor.

[fletch]

Everyone,
Thanks for the links and suggestions. Very, very helpful stuff. I'm curious to know if anyone has a spare set of sedan belts lying around.

Scoobs,
I'm interested to know more about the extender you used. Was it something like this? https://www.seatbeltsplus.com/product/12-EXT.html

[Scoobs]

Everyone,
Thanks for the links and suggestions. Very, very helpful stuff. I'm curious to know if anyone has a spare set of sedan belts lying around.

Scoobs,
I'm interested to know more about the extender you used. Was it something like this? https://www.seatbeltsplus.com/product/12-EXT.html


Yes, exactly that. I just bolted the one end to the other to Lengthen it.

[fletch]

Yes, exactly that. I just bolted the one end to the other to Lengthen it.

Did the bolted section lay on your hip when the seat belt was in place?

[Scoobs]

Did the bolted section lay on your hip when the seat belt was in place?

Not overly, it sits a few inches above the seat. Nothing that was getting in the way. I was not able to notice it.

120099

[fletch]

I'm planning to relocate the brake & clutch reservoirs. Is there any reason I can't use a single remote reservoir to feed both the brake & clutch systems? They use the same fluid so I'm wondering why they might need to be separate. Is there a safety aspect I'm missing? Thoughts?

[Hobby Racer]

It's a safety thing. Say your clutch slave cylinder poops out and leaks all the fluid out. Now you also have no brakes! Having said that, since these are not high mileage daily drivers, you would be fine, just check the fluids and watch for leaks.

[AZPete]

I used a single reservoir, as did others. I've got a Porsche with a single reservoir for clutch and brakes.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I'm planning to relocate the brake & clutch reservoirs. Is there any reason I can't use a single remote reservoir to feed both the brake & clutch systems? They use the same fluid so I'm wondering why they might need to be separate. Is there a safety aspect I'm missing? Thoughts?

The reason today cars have dual master cylinders is redundancy in the brake system. By using one tank for both brake circuits, takes away that redundancy. I would not do it.

Mitch had the best setup using a triple Tilton tank. 120226

Also, make sure the hose from the tanks to the MC does not go uphill anywhere. You will be inviting an air bubble to get into your brake system.

[Mitch Wright]

I believe the Porsche reservoir that Pete is using uses a single cap but has divided compartments. Tilton also makes a smaller version of the reservoir that I used.

[fletch]

Looks like I ventured into an area of varying opinions! Let me say, I appreciate hearing both/all sides of the issue. It helps inform decision making to know what others have thought and done. So, thank you. I'd like to put a few of my thoughts out there for further consideration. I'm not hoping to change anyone's mind, except maybe my own.

Seems to me that Subaru made a smart choice in splitting the braking system into RF/LR + RR/LF. This maintains some sort of balance under compromised braking. In failure situations, compromises must often be made. They also put the redundancy where it mattered - splitting the pressurized side in its entirety, while still using a single brake reservoir. The pressurized side is far more complex and is... wait for it... under pressure! The low pressure portion of the OEM brake system is minimal, consisting of the tank and its connections to the MC ports. Certainly, relocating the reservoir results in additional opportunities for failure - custom adapters, hose connections, etc. Anecdotal evidence from a few forum searches indicates leaks in the low pressure portion are possible.

My planned solution is to relocate the OEM brake reservoir and construct custom hose adapters for mating with the MC and the reservoir. Given my remaining build time there would be months (years?) of time for static testing of the relocated reservoir and hose connections. I plan to retain the OEM fluid level sensor so that during operation I’d get an indication of low brake fluid.

Initially I thought I’d just leave the clutch reservoir alone - buried under the dash - since it’s much less likely I’d need to fill/bleed that system. Then I thought about combining the reservoirs. Hence my initial question.

Having thought it through a bit more I’ve decided that the one condition I’d like to avoid is having the car locked in gear with only the e-brake available. I’m not confident the drum brakes will be able to bring the car to a stop in a controlled fashion when it’s in gear.

Which leads me to the conclusion that I’ll be keeping the brake and clutch reservoirs separate. I might or might not relocate the clutch reservoir and still don’t know if I’ll choose one or two reservoirs for the brake system. Anyway, those are my thoughts at this point. Thanks again for yours.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

They also put the redundancy where it mattered - splitting the pressurized side in its entirety, while still using a single brake reservoir.

If one side of the Subaru system fails, it will totally drain the reservoir that feeds it. The Subaru brake master cylinder has a divider in the reservoir to maintain the redundancy through the low-pressure side.

Bob

[lance corsi]

I doubt a single reservoir with no separator would pass inspection in Ohio. I wouldn’t run mine without discreet chambers. Had a clutch slave cyl leak down once, far from home. Made it home clutchless but at least I had brakes!

[fletch]

The Subaru brake master cylinder has a divider in the reservoir to maintain the redundancy through the low-pressure side.

Wait. Really!??! I did not realize that. Now I'm wondering how the level sensor works with the split chamber. I'll have to look it over more carefully tonight.

[fletch]

It's very difficult to tell, but looks like there is a vertical divider in the OEM brake reservoir that extends from the bottom about 1/3 of the height of the tank. Also the level sensor is a float style and only sits inside the (fore|aft) portion of the tank. (I can't remember which, but will update this post when I look it over again.) I'll probably end up cutting apart one of these to see what's inside since I've got two and one of them is super dirty.

UPDATE:
The OEM reservoir has two structural ribs that connect to the float retainer, but allow fluid to flow between all 3 sections of the tank. The ribs and slots are pretty easy to see in the top view. There is also a divider in the OEM reservoir. It sits below the MIN level in the tank, just forward of the rear structural rib. This is easier to see in the side view.

120996
120997

Thinking I'll relocate the factory reservoir and preserve the separation between fore/aft sections by using separate hoses to the MC. Still unsure about relocating the clutch reservoir, but I am convinced I won't combine it with the brake reservoir.

[fletch]

I know these are the bee's knees, but I'd rather not spend $200 on a tool I'll use once or twice. Does anybody have one they want to loan, rent or sell?

[fletch]

I know these are the bee's knees, but I'd rather not spend $200 on a tool I'll use once or twice. Does anybody have one they want to loan, rent or sell?

Gonna ask once more before I pull the trigger and just buy one.

[DSR-3]

I don't know what tool you are referring to, but if it's bender, I have one for loan. If it's a flare tool, they can be had for less I think. You can get good pre-made lines in a variety of lengths, in fact I have some "leftovers".

[Hobby Racer]

Gonna ask once more before I pull the trigger and just buy one.

I've used many other flare tools, and they were all terrible. Just get the Eastwood one, you won't regret it. I've never had a bad connection using it.

In fact its on sale right now for $179!

[fletch]

I've used many other flare tools, and they were all terrible. Just get the Eastwood one, you won't regret it. I've never had a bad connection using it.

In fact its on sale right now for $179!

Just bought it.
https://www.eastwood.com/professional-brake-tubing-flaring-tool.html

[fletch]

Having just pressed my replacement rear wheel bearings into the hubs, I realized I may want to have longer studs. Did I just waste a set of wheel bearings?
Who's installed longer studs and under what circumstances should I plan to do likewise?
As ever, thanks for the insight!

[Mitch Wright]

I use my Eastwood tool often on projects money well spent and by far the best I have used for brake and fuel lines.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Having just pressed my replacement rear wheel bearings into the hubs, I realized I may want to have longer studs. Did I just waste a set of wheel bearings?
Who's installed longer studs and under what circumstances should I plan to do likewise?
As ever, thanks for the insight!

I installed Longer ARP studs without disassembling the hubs. (I think M12 x 1.5 threads) I might have gone through the ABS sensor hole to install them.

I used https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-100-7717


121920

PS: I think better studs are essential for any autocross or track driving. While autox our donor Impreza the front aluminum rims would get hot from brake rotor heat. This expanded the rims and stretch the studs. This would cause the lug nuts to seize as the thread pitch didn't match the lugnut. The only way to remove the wheel was to snap off the studs. After this happened 4 or 5 times. I went with the arp studs. no problem ever since.

[fletch]

I installed Longer ARP studs without disassembling the hubs. (I think M12 x 1.5 threads) I might have gone through the ABS sensor hole to install them.

I used https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-100-7717


121920

PS: I think better studs are essential for any autocross or track driving. While autox our donor Impreza the front aluminum rims would get hot from brake rotor heat. This expanded the rims and stretch the studs. This would cause the lug nuts to seize as the thread pitch didn't match the lugnut. The only way to remove the wheel was to snap off the studs. After this happened 4 or 5 times. I went with the arp studs. no problem ever since.

Oh wow. Good to know. I never would have guessed.

[fletch]

Anybody have trouble aligning the rear lower trailing arms (from the donor) to the spindles? The two "ears" on the trailing arm are nearly parallel to the centerline of the car, while the spindle mount points are canted inward. We wrestled them into place, but this doesn't seem optimal.

[fletch]

I've been thinking a bit about the heater lines and have an idea that makes sense to me but is different from what others have done. I’m wondering if I’m missing something and wanted to run it by you all.

In AZPete's write up, for example, he ran the Subaru heater loop up to the front of the car to supply his Vintage Air heater core instead of using the FFR loopback hose. I’m thinking that we’ve already got lots of hot engine coolant up at the front of the car, namely the main coolant loop to the radiator. Consequently, I’m thinking about installing the FFR heater loopback hose and teeing off the main radiator loop to supply the heater core. Basically piping the heater core in parallel with the radiator with an on/off valve in the heater loop.

In that arrangement we won’t even need a “bypass” valve to maintain coolant flow since the radiator loop will always be flowing. Like I said, I’m wondering if we're missing something in our proposed design. The only thing we can think that might be an issue is insufficient flow through the heater core since the radiator pathway may be lower “resistance” (pressure drop).

What do you guys think of this approach?

[Ajzride]

I'm not too sure of the dynamics of it, if the heater core would pull enough flow out of the radiator line to do any good. But if you do what you are talking about you would definitely not have any flow through the heater core until after the engine was completely warm and the thermostat opened up. Using the dedicated heater lines you start getting flow as soon as the engine fires up and it gets warmer with the engine.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I've been thinking a bit about the heater lines and have an idea that makes sense to me but is different from what others have done. I’m wondering if I’m missing something and wanted to run it by you all.

In AZPete's write up, for example, he ran the Subaru heater loop up to the front of the car to supply his Vintage Air heater core instead of using the FFR loopback hose. I’m thinking that we’ve already got lots of hot engine coolant up at the front of the car, namely the main coolant loop to the radiator. Consequently, I’m thinking about installing the FFR heater loopback hose and teeing off the main radiator loop to supply the heater core. Basically piping the heater core in parallel with the radiator with an on/off valve in the heater loop.

In that arrangement we won’t even need a “bypass” valve to maintain coolant flow since the radiator loop will always be flowing. Like I said, I’m wondering if we're missing something in our proposed design. The only thing we can think that might be an issue is insufficient flow through the heater core since the radiator pathway may be lower “resistance” (pressure drop).

What do you guys think of this approach?


I'm not too sure of the dynamics of it, if the heater core would pull enough flow out of the radiator line to do any good. But if you do what you are talking about you would definitely not have any flow through the heater core until after the engine was completely warm and the thermostat opened up. Using the dedicated heater lines you start getting flow as soon as the engine fires up and it gets warmer with the engine.

Like AJZride said. In the OEM setup, the heater core loop flows before the thermostat opens. The heater in an OEM Subaru work great as the heater get all the heat and doesn't send hot water to the radiator until the heater core can't cool the engine enough. If you plan on driving it in the cold, I would plumb oem. But I would add a small (1/8") bleeder hose from the top of the heater core to the degas tank to prevent air pockets in the heater system.
Bob

[fletch]

AJ, Bob,
Thank you for the comments. I'll use the OEM heater loop.

AZPete, curious to know if you used a bleeder hose for your heater loop. I know you had a bleeder valve, which I assume you only used during first fill of the coolant loop. Bob's bleeder hose would operate continuously.

[AZPete]

You are correct that I only used my bleeder valve in the heater line during the initial bleed. Bob's suggestion to run a hose shows what we all knew previously - that Bob has more experience and probably more brain cells! :)

[fletch]

Alright, my 818 brain trust... :D
When our donor arrived from the auction, the bleeder port on the radiator (passenger side top) was snapped off. We need somewhere to connect a bleeder hose and are considering options.
1) Drill out the hole & JB weld in a hose barb.
2) Seal the hole and tap a hole for a hose barb somewhere closer to the cap.
3) Seal the hole and replace the cap with a non-pressure relieving one for a cap that always flows through the overflow port.

We like #3 because it's easy to seal the hole and our chances and getting a decent tap elsewhere in the radiator seem pretty low. Is there a problem with removing the pressure relief cap since we always planned to use a 1.3 bar cap, cap the overflow port, and retain the 0.9 bar cap on the degas tank?
Thanks everyone for the input.

[Ajzride]

can You restate #3, I’m not quite clear on your intent.

[fletch]

can You restate #3, I’m not quite clear on your intent.

Sure. Sorry to be confusing.
The hose barb off the top passenger side of the OEM radiator has been snapped off. For #3, we'd seal that hole. Then replace the OEM pressure relief cap on the radiator with a cap that flows continuously and has no pressure relief function. The coolant that flows through that cap will exit the radiator through the normal overflow port. We would repurpose the overflow port on the radiator for the bleeder hose. The engine coolant loop should still be protected by the pressure relief cap on the degas tank. Hope that's clearer. If not, say so.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Sure. Sorry to be confusing.
The hose barb off the top passenger side of the OEM radiator has been snapped off. For #3, we'd seal that hole. Then replace the OEM pressure relief cap on the radiator with a cap that flows continuously and has no pressure relief function. The coolant that flows through that cap will exit the radiator through the normal overflow port. We would repurpose the overflow port on the radiator for the bleeder hose. The engine coolant loop should still be protected by the pressure relief cap on the degas tank. Hope that's clearer. If not, say so.

I am doing #3 right now and it is not working out very well. All the "blanking caps" I can find don't seal well enough.
My radiator is aluminum, so I'm going to weld on an aluminum bung like this one.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220071

[fletch]

I am doing #3 right now and it is not working out very well. All the "blanking caps" I can find don't seal well enough.
My radiator is aluminum, so I'm going to weld on an aluminum bung like this one.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220071

Thanks, Bob. In principle, there's nothing wrong with #3, but execution might be a challenge. I'm working with the OEM radiator and was planning to modify the OEM cap. It sounds like I might end up having the same issue as you. Especially since the overflow portion of the OEM cap is only designed to seal against atmospheric pressure. One would think the aftermarket blanking caps would be better at that. If we proceed with option 3 and our cap leaks, we may need to epoxy our own blanking plate in place. We'll probably go ahead with 3 and keep in mind that we might need to find an alternative later.

Just a curiosity... Given your experience, would you expect the leakage problem to show up during go-kart stage, or only after a long stretch of driving, or only under hard driving, etc.?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Thanks, Bob. In principle, there's nothing wrong with #3, but execution might be a challenge. I'm working with the OEM radiator and was planning to modify the OEM cap. It sounds like I might end up having the same issue as you. Especially since the overflow portion of the OEM cap is only designed to seal against atmospheric pressure. One would think the aftermarket blanking caps would be better at that. If we proceed with option 3 and our cap leaks, we may need to epoxy our own blanking plate in place. We'll probably go ahead with 3 and keep in mind that we might need to find an alternative later.

Just a curiosity... Given your experience, would you expect the leakage problem to show up during go-kart stage, or only after a long stretch of driving, or only under hard driving, etc.?

WIth all the connection in the cooling system, I recommend pressure testing the whole system before go kart stage. I have one of these testers, but I don't know if there is an adaptor that fits the degas tank. https://www.amazon.com/Radiator-Pressure-Tester-Vacuum-Cooling/dp/B00WLE6FIO/ref=sr_1_17?crid=3R4PMEOXXION1&dchild=1&keywords=radiator+pressure+tester&qid=1586703581&sprefix=radiatorr+pr%2Caps%2C137&sr=8-17

I learned the hard way, I blew of a 1-1/4" hose at a track day that killed the rest of the day. I would test too at least 30 psi.

[fletch]

What are folks doing for their AWIC loop? Are you using a degas tank + overflow reservoir w/ dip tube? Fully closed system?
We're working on the plumbing of pretty much everything over the next few weeks and want to be sure we don't miss anything.

[grabera7]

I was just talking to someone on Facebook that Y branched their AWIC lines into their turbo and AWIC and then Y branched them back after. I’m curious if this is common?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

What are folks doing for their AWIC loop? Are you using a degas tank + overflow reservoir w/ dip tube? Fully closed system?
We're working on the plumbing of pretty much everything over the next few weeks and want to be sure we don't miss anything.

My AWIC System in NON-Pressurized. I will start at my bosch pump, located at the bottom of the firewall, in front of the right rear wheel. It is down low in the system to make it self priming.
Out of the pump, I ran a 3/4" hose to bottom port on a sirocco radiator in the front of the car. Keeping the hose even with the bottom of the car the best I could.
I went into the bottom port of the radiator so the pump would push any air out the top radiator hose. That 3/4" radiator hose runs back (right side) to the AWIC cooler on the engine.
The output of the AWIC cooler runs down to the input of the bosch pump.

To get any air out of the system, I have 2 small 1/4" hoses connect to the AWIC cooler. One at the high point and on at the lowest point. Then I have a 1-quart reservoir tank mounted a little higher than the AWIC Cooler.
Top of cooler goes to top of the tank to take any air out of the system. The bottom of the tank goes to the bottom of AWIC cooler to replenish fluid. I run standard antifreeze solution to prevent freezing and corrosion.

Do not connect awic system to the engine coolant system. The engine system is around 200 degrees. The awic is below 100 degrees.

126736 126737 126738 126739

[Frank818]

Brian you've seen mine, hopefully you took pix of it.

I have a 3-gal tank up front and the cooler at the rear. The cooler is slightly higher than the tank, which is not very good when you put water in the system, it's more complicated but the tank helps a lot to push the water up.
I have no pressure issues, been using that exact setup/parts since 2006!

[fletch]

Wondering if - no, deeply, sincerely hoping that - we can run heater & A/C hoses here. Can anyone confirm this is OK?
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[Ajzride]

I think that will be in the way of the door, but I'm not positive.

[aquillen]

Here is an image of that area with the door in place from one of my posts. The arrows and circle were for purposes explained there, not for your question. But you can see what is in that area. I don't think you can get hoses where you have them, have to stay to the left of the main chassis square tubing and get under it, not over it.

https://res.cloudinary.com/aq007/image/upload/v1584757779/Door_-_seal_front_inside_00_xlnbcz.jpg

[fletch]

Ack. Thanks Art. Better to fix it now.

[Ajzride]

For the AC, I used a pair of 90 AN fittings to come out of the unit and go straight into a bulkhead in the firewall. Once you get past the firewall there is much more room to work.

Grab a 10-pack of 5/8" 90s, it will make your life much easier routing in that area (at least for the heater).

https://smile.amazon.com/Eldon-James-L0-10BN-Black-Degree/dp/B017VNGSXQ/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3ES7OV3P5YTLF&dchild=1&keywords=5%2F8+90+degree+elbow&qid=1589427700&sprefix=5%2F8+90%2Caps%2C154&sr=8-4

I'm also working on a modification to the heater circuit and the radiator return circuit that I hope will make it tremendously easier to fill and bleed the system with a heater core in place. Even with a vacuum system I'm struggling to get it to fill and burp the radiator, block, and heater core all at the same time. I should have it complete in the next 10 days and will let you know how it worked out. It wouldn't affect the routing near the firewall where you are now.

[fletch]

Thanks AJ. I'll look forward to what you have to say about bleeding the coolant & heater loop. We do have a front mount gas tank so space on the other side of the firewall is also at a premium. Once you get through the firewall are you routing down through the mousehole?

[fletch]

Here is an image of that area with the door in place from one of my posts. The arrows and circle were for purposes explained there, not for your question. But you can see what is in that area. I don't think you can get hoses where you have them, have to stay to the left of the main chassis square tubing and get under it, not over it.

Art, where's your coolant loop? I don't see it in that picture.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I have 4 lines going through the right side mouse hole. 1.25" tube to the radiator. Two 3/4" hoses to my AWIC exchanger ane on 5/16" hose that bleeds air from the top of the radiator. Where you have the hoses, it will block the side sail from going on.

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[Ajzride]

Once you get through the firewall are you routing down through the mousehole?
Yes, through the mouse hole.

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[aquillen]

Art, where's your coolant loop? I don't see it in that picture.

H6-3.0 and I kept both hot lines from the engine separate all the way to the radiator. Easier to bend the smaller lines, combined pipe cross section area a bit larger than the single FFR pipe. But you just want to see the routing in general, I know.
.
https://res.cloudinary.com/aq007/image/upload/v1530320585/AQ818_coolant_lines_rt_side_02_z63uvd.jpg
.
https://res.cloudinary.com/aq007/image/upload/v1521936688/016_1_inch_lines_to_radiator_bq9zzw.jpg

Like Bob-n-Cincy there is room for heater lines here too. I had them one time, but changed to a tap up front that just uses hot from the top of the radiator (longer to heat up but OK with me). Back at the engine I used the heater line to feed an EGR cooler, if someone is wondering...

[fletch]

Does anyone have a Subaru manual A/C control panel? Looks kinda like this.
130223

I've got the Vintage Air heater & AC setup and would like to use the OEM console. I've got the auto AC control panel which isn't as easy to deal with. Thanks!

[Ajzride]

I have one that I got from the pick and pull for $15. I will be mounting the pots for my restomod air controls inside it.

[fletch]

Long time no post. Forgive me. We're weeks away from our first start... which we'll certainly document and post up. So there's the teaser.

Here's the question... I can't for the life of me find the torque value for the shock tower brace bolts. I've searched the manual and the forum. I'm sure it's here, but I've spent long enough looking. Can someone help?
Thank you!!

[Frank818]

There's a page at the end of the manual, at least it's there in my old manual, that lists various SAE and METRIC bolt lenghts along with their associated torque figures, both on alu and steel.

Check the size/thread of the bolt you want to torque and match it within that chart/table. It's useful for a couple of other bolts here and there.

If your bolt is the one I'm thinking, it should be 75lbs.

[fletch]

Thanks Frank! Perfect.

[Frank818]

Confirmed, all four 1/2-13 bolts of the rear shock tower brace are 74lbs.

[fletch]

<sigh> My question thread is twice as long as my build thread. I'll try to do better at posting progress. Planning a few posts to go into detail on various aspects we've already completed... after I mop up all the coolant leaks that have appeared since getting the engine running. :rolleyes:

Here's the question. Since Gator seems to have solved the transmission overheating issue, should we bother making a similar mod to our 818? We've got the 2.5L turbo engine with the 5MT from a 2006 WRX.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?26054-Gator-s-818R&p=418279&viewfull=1#post418279

I know this is likely not a simple answer, but I find I benefit from the back-and-forth of the discussion. We won't do anything more than some autocross events, however I do plan to drive it regularly on the interstate at > 70 mph for 20-30 minutes.

We just got to go-kart stage and I'm reluctant to tear into the frame, but I know this mod will only get harder the longer I delay it. Maybe we install a transmission temp sensor and start collecting data while still at go-kart? What would folks advise?
Thanks!

[lance corsi]

Hello Fletch. I would tend to think you do not need a transmission cooler since your wot time on the street or the autocross track will be nothing close to the conditions Sgt Gator puts his cars through. The 6 spd trans has provisions for adding a cooler easily and the 5 spd doesn’t without some work.

[Hobby Racer]

I agree with Lance. Road racing puts an extreme strain on components due to the high amount of time spent at WOT, generating lots of heat. A street car w/ occasional autocross events will be fine. I would leave it alone.

[AZPete]

Fletch, from a street car point of view, I agree with Hobby and Lance that a trans cooler is not needed. My 818C (#25) has a 2.5L turbo engine with the 5MT from a 2006 WRX, like yours. I did not mod the frame and had no cooler, but I made a higher mark on the trans dip stick and kept it filled. I did no autocross but drove it on 2 trips to Huntington Beach which were each 900 freeway miles round trip and lots of other city and freeway miles. It had 5,800 miles when I sold it last October still doing fine. March on.

[fletch]

Thanks for the replies. My thought was not to add a trans cooler but to cut the frame and drop the tail of the trans to match the OEM angle. I have to admit, those videos with the lexan diff plate made me concerned about our tilted transmissions.

[roadrashrob]

I'm with Fletch. While I've not even received my kit yet, seems like if there is a benefit (more like problem avoidance) to setting the transmission at the angle Subaru intended it to be at, it's easier to do it sooner rather than later. Especially given the scare I just had with mine and seeing how much even used ones are running.

[lance corsi]

I made 1.25” taller engine mounts to achieve the correct attitude for the engine/trans. I believe this incorrect angle as received is the main contributor to oiling problems associated with the engine as well as the transmission.

[aquillen]

My 818C with 3.0 motor turning 98' Forester 5 speed - at ~70MPH for ~2 hours, three different trips now like that, hit about 170F and held, outside air was about 70F. Takes about 45 minutes to climb up to that and hold there. No cooler or other special air flow.

[fletch]

As we've been putting some go-kart time in, we've discovered that it's very hard - nearly impossible - to downshift to 1st or 2nd. Getting into 1st is easy when stopped. Moving from 1st to 2nd while rolling is similarly easy.
However, going from 3rd to 2nd or 2nd to 1st while rolling is really tough.
Any thoughts on what might be wrong or where to look to resolve this issue? Is it in the transmission or maybe the shifter linkage?

[aquillen]

Mine doesn't like to go down to 2 or 1 until moving slowly (or stopped). Especially into 1st I wait until nearly stopped to try for it - goes right in. If moving above a crawl it fights 1st for sure. 2nd not so fussy.

[fletch]

I hear you Art, but that can’t be the way these transmissions work in the Subarus, can it?!? I’d be very unhappy in a WRX that couldn’t downshift easily to 2nd.

[Ajzride]

I don’t have any issues with 2nd. 1st has to be almost stopped, typical of every stick I’ve driven.

[lance corsi]

This sounds like worn synchronizers. As Art said, it isn’t uncommon to have trouble downshifting into first while rolling, but second gear shouldn’t be a problem, provided you aren’t carrying too much speed. The 1-2 synchro and the 2-3 synchro get used most, so I would suspect them. I’d replace them all if you have to tear into the transmission. I’m doing them all on mine.
Another possibility would be your cable slop if you are using cables.

[fletch]

Art, Lance, AJ, thanks for the feedback. And apologies all for my uninformative post. The trans is a 5MT from a 2006 WRX. We have the Zero DB bell crank installed with an MR2 shifter and 8’ cables that route pretty tightly under the engine. It’s easy to get in and out of 2nd when stationary, though a little tougher than other gears. Maybe that indicates it’s the synchro? Lance, I’d like to hear more about how cable slop or adjustments in general might have an impact here.

[lance corsi]

The ease of static shifting means little in terms of synchro wear since the transmission shafts are not spinning. The synchro uses a tapered friction area to spin the associated gear up or down in rpm. With small teeth on the periphery, which engage with the mating gear teeth to accelerate or decelerate the cluster to match rpm. The actual synchronization happens as pressure is applied to the shift lever, forcing the synchro onto its tapered seat, thus inducing spinning. It’s really a simple device but susceptible to wear. Most 1-2 synchros are usually first to show wear.
I’m not a fan of cables, am not using mine, so I cannot be specific, only that cables suck.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Fletch,
I agree with others that say it could be the synchronizers. But I also think the problem could be that the clutch is not completely releasing. I had to play with the clutch pedal rod length to get the clutch to function properly. Make sure there is a little bit of free play in the clutch rod.
Bob

[fletch]

Lance, that's the best description of synchros in text form I've ever seen. They never made much sense to me until I saw a few Youtube animations, but your description is fantastic. I see your point that synchros may be the issue. I'm going to deal with the other easier to address possibilities first... and will cross my fingers that I don't need to rebuild the transmission. We'll see!

Bob,
Can you tell me more about your suggestion regarding the clutch pedal? I think you're saying that the shaft on the clutch MC should have some play when the pedal is not depressed. Is that right? If so, how does that have any impact on clutch operation when the pedal's depressed and we're trying to shift? Sorry if I'm dense here.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob,
Can you tell me more about your suggestion regarding the clutch pedal? I think you're saying that the shaft on the clutch MC should have some play when the pedal is not depressed. Is that right? If so, how does that have any impact on clutch operation when the pedal's depressed and we're trying to shift? Sorry if I'm dense here.

When the clutch pedal is all the way released and there is play in the master cylinder rod, this opens the port between the reservoir and the master cylinder chamber. This makes sure you are pushing a full load of fluid to completely release the clutch.

Any air in the clutch line will also cause the clutch not to release completely.

You can check this by putting the back end up on blocks and starting the engine, put it in gear with the clutch depressed. The rear wheels should not turn.

The synchronizer job is to bring the trans input shaft (and clutch disk) to the same speed as the gear teeth on the output pinion shaft. If the clutch is dragging it is very difficult for the synchronizer to do that.

Clear as mud now?
Bob


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bqs-oHBBQk&feature=emb_logo

[fletch]

When the clutch pedal is all the way released and there is play in the master cylinder rod, this opens the port between the reservoir and the master cylinder chamber. This makes sure you are pushing a full load of fluid to completely release the clutch.

Any air in the clutch line will also cause the clutch not to release completely.

You can check this by putting the back end up on blocks and starting the engine, put it in gear with the clutch depressed. The rear wheels should not turn.

It appears the clutch pedal travel is not the issue. Although there was no play in the clutch MC rod, the wheels did not spin in gear. I adjusted the rod anyway. I haven't had a chance to drive the car, but I suspect downshifts to second will still be an issue. Perhaps I should have mentioned that shifting into 1st and 2nd even with the engine off has always been difficult. 3rd, 4th & 5th are easy compared to 1st & 2nd. Not sure what this means, but would appreciate any input.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

It appears the clutch pedal travel is not the issue. Although there was no play in the clutch MC rod, the wheels did not spin in gear. I adjusted the rod anyway. I haven't had a chance to drive the car, but I suspect downshifts to second will still be an issue. Perhaps I should have mentioned that shifting into 1st and 2nd even with the engine off has always been difficult. 3rd, 4th & 5th are easy compared to 1st & 2nd. Not sure what this means, but would appreciate any input.

If the rotation on the shifter rod is not enough. It could be trying to push the 1-2 and 3-4 slider at the same time.
The transmission has a mechanical interlock that only lets one slider move out of neutral at a time.

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[fletch]

Thanks Bob. I’ll look at the cables tonight with special attention to the rotation range of motion.

[aquillen]

If you have enough cable range, then maybe...

Disconnect the shift cable ends back at the transmission. Have a helper "resist" the cable ends sliding while you shift up there at the console. Rather subjective but if you take turns at each end you probably will concur if you have - or not - a binding issue in the cable/linkages. Eliminate that then move on to the transmission...

I'm using 98 Forester in the car, but also have a couple others in the corner (one of which I just tested recently as I'm working on a "power assist" mechanism that makes shifting a fingertip proposal.... just to tinker)

Anyway, the one I tested recently is an '02 NA Impreza. In the image of shift rod ends that Bob posted/circled, each shaft, push or pull to move from neutral needed the following force, with a crummy fish-scale to pull and a postal scale to push. The transmissions were empty, and the 98 had been fully disassembled and put back together with just a thin coat of trans lube. And my push-pull testing was directly at the back end of each of the 3 individual rods inside the case, not the main shift shaft out the back of the fully assembled trans. I need to try this on the outside shaft sometime, but in this cold weather the results would be hard to make sense of - it definitely shifts harder in the winter.

Thinking back to over a month ago when I last drove it - downshifting into 2nd is same as any other downshift selection, only 1st gear is hard to get until nearly stopped (lots of Suby forum people report this is normal).

98 Forester ~ 28# and each shaft would pop out and move to the next position
02 Impreza ~ 18# required.

No clue why so much difference but that is what these two examples need. Each shaft in one unit would take roughly the same effort with 2# or 3# variation, above numbers was the average. So figure between 18# and 28# should shift a gear and whatever the transmission does on one shift shaft the others would be similar. Now is this a realistic conclusion from just transmissions, one of which I don't know the history? Not much better than no reference for you maybe.

The main shift shaft out the back runs on a collection of ball bearings that allow slide and rotate. If the seals and bearings are good in that part, it should not add much more than a couple #'s of effort to any of the motions. But you can't know unless you pull the back case and verify it is not binding.

Looking at this picture, the three wide head screws trap a spring and ball that is the detent for each shift rod. I believe the springs are all the same tension, and they do set a good part of the effort normally needed to pop the shaft out of position, and the associated ball/shaft detent for each shaft is what holds the selected gear. If you remove the screws, then all detent action should go away and you better feel how much effort the shaft, fork, syncros and such require to move the internals. As I recall vaguely from 4 years back each shaft was very easy to move without the detent springs, and they moved with simlar effort. Since sometimes the teeth on the syncro/balk ring parts have to move a bit, then the force to get a gear will vary, but back and forth on a single gear to neutral should settle out once the teeth are aligned and you don't go to some other gear to cause that alignment to change.

I'm also guessing a trick might be if a transmission has wear and is having trouble popping out of gear, someone might put in a stiffer spring than should be, to keep it working for a while ? (nothing read on that but what if that had been done to yours?).

https://res.cloudinary.com/aq007/image/upload/v1609903844/Left_case_side_view_01_e98lkk.jpg

[fletch]

Thanks Art. Lots to think about there. I'll get back to that shifter issue at some point and will try to assess the force needed for each gear in some way.

Now a different question...
I think we may have the wrong door parts. Here's what we have.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141280&d=1611438468
These are from Bob's 818S kit originally. We bought the hardtop which includes windows, regulators, and various hardware, but did not include new doors. The manual shows these:
141284
and several photos with the style of door we have. I presume FFR made a change to the door design at some point. Will our doors work when it comes time to add all the window hardware? AZPete, others? Maybe you've done the coupe conversion and used the older style doors?

[lance corsi]

Fletch, yes the 818C door frames are different than the “S” door frames.
However, with the massive amount of work needed to make the window mechanism work, I’m not so sure a wholesale redesign wouldn’t be quicker/easier. Given what I know now, I should have redesigned them already, but I was able to get mine to work with lots of toil. Chevy s-10 window tracks are key to making them work, but you need to add tabs to bolt them in with. The tabs as supplied aren’t in the correct places when you do this mod.

[lance corsi]

Throw away the shower door rollers and install tracks.

[AZPete]

Thanks for asking, Fletch. I got the new door frames from FFR when I got the hardtop, so I used those and not the "S" door frames. I got my windows to work with the "shower door" rollers but it took many hours of trial & error. Having seen the quality of Lance'swork here on the forum, I yield to his expertise. Be sure to look carefully at his build with window tracks.

[fletch]

Well, it's embarrassing but relieving to report that we've solved our downshifting issues. After checking the cables for proper amounts of play & travel, confirming adequate travel in the clutch pedal, and rebleeding the clutch line, we decided to take a few trips around the neighborhood to enjoy the go-kart a little bit more. We've had several difficult months with various family challenges and losses and thought it would be good to just have a little fun going 30 mph. It was therapeutic for sure.

Lance said the culprit might be worn synchros and we were beginning to think that was going to be the issue. Of course that would require disassembling the transmission or replacing it - neither of which we were eager to do. Admittedly, it's been hard to get much motivation up to do anything on the car and fixing the transmission felt like it would be a huge step backward.

I read somewhere that you can live with worn synchros for quite a while by double-clutching. So when Isaac got cold enough to take a break from driving around the neighborhood, I took a turn at the wheel and decided to try the double-clutch downshift to test the worn synchro theory. Lo and behold, downshifting 3rd to 2nd worked! I thought to myself, "Oh crap. Now we've got to tear the transmission apart." I let that idea settle in pretty deep for a few minutes while attempting to enjoy the breeze flowing through my ever-growing COVID hair. During my reverie I had an epiphany. "Maybe I just need to rev match a little better." So I gave it a shot. Just a simple straight-line, non-double-clutched, rev matched downshift. And --- holy cow it worked! I tried it again, and again. I heel-toed a few low speed corners. It all worked!

I was dumbfounded... (and pretty dumb, of course.)... yet also elated as the realization gradually dawned on me - "WE DON'T NEED TO PULL THE TRANSMISSION!!!!"

So, I feel embarrassed and delighted at the same time. I'm guessing some of you can relate.

While I'm at it, I'll share two other moments of stupidity during our build.
1) I brought my tuner friend over to help us through our first start. We stumbled for a while with the issue of needing to put the immobilizer in circuit (it's an '06 WRX donor). Fixed that issue, then got no spark. What to do, what to do? After pulling a plug and checking 15 other things, my friend walks around the engine and checks all the engine harness connectors. Three of them were plugged in, but not to the point of "clicking." He seated those plugs and the engine started right up. Pretty dumb mistake, but an easy fix... so I'll take it! [ASIDE: We never got our first start on video because we were so confounded by all these issues. In fact, our first start was only on 3 cylinders because we had pulled an ignition wire to check for spark.]
2) After a fairly long stretch of not running the engine, the battery had died. We jumped it and got it running. We drove it around the neighborhood a few times attempting to diagnose an overheating issue. Eventually, we parked it outside to let it cool off. An hour later I went out to move it into the garage and it wouldn't start. I then proceeded to call the entire family outside to help push it up the driveway incline. As they were following me outside I had another sudden realization. I sat in the car, put the clutch in and started it right up. ------ Yep, I had been trying to start the car without putting the clutch in. Again a dumb mistake with an easy fix.

All this reminds me of something my father used to say. "I'd rather be lucky than good." Which of course is of no comfort when you realize you're driving around in something you built yourself. Here's hoping we're lucky and good!

[aquillen]

Kudos for all your truthfulness. Sometimes I do stupid things, sometimes I share too... if it wasn't too silly. Perseverance, however, is always rewarded as you know.

[lance corsi]

I’m almost ashamed to admit how many mistakes I make. It almost seems like I’ve built 2 cars! I don’t feel bad about it tho, since so many issues were baked into this cake from the beginning. I feel that the launch of this model was extremely premature given the amount of engineering work needed to address the many problems. All this and FFR has moved on to introduce other new models. I can only imagine the issues others will be facing as they try to build their cars. I prefer quality over quantity. When I buy something such as this kit, I’m buying more than just raw materials. It’s called engineering.

[lance corsi]

If I had to put a grade on the 818 it would only be a C minus.

[fletch]

I have an '06 wrx donor which has the push-style clutch. In trying to resolve our downshifting issue I'd like help with a bit of info. Can anybody verify for me the travel distance of the slave cylinder rod? Trying to figure out if the master cylinder/pedal aren't moving the slave far enough or if the issue is inside the transmission/clutch itself. Thanks!

[fletch]

Our 2006 WRX donor has an exterior temperature sensor with a dedicated LCD in the cluster. However, the LCD is out. Completely non-functioning, no display whatsoever. At times past, the display used to illuminate and show "--- F", but now it's completely dead aside from the backlight. Moreover, the 5V were supposed to see on the cluster output to the exterior temp sensor is pinned at 0V. Perhaps the microcontroller is fried? Any help or questions for clarification would be appreciated. Thank you.

[AZPete]

Fletch, check that the rod from your clutch slave cylinder is seated all the way into the "bowl" of the clutch release lever. I know this sounds elementary, but I was puzzled for weeks why my clutch wasn't fully engaging. For weeks, I stupidly tried other solutions until I finally pushed the slave rod a little so it seated itself into the center of the recessed bowl. Duh.

[aquillen]

Maybe check your connector pins - see if you have one not fully inserted. Dead power on that board is likely something simpler than the microcontroller chip.

[aquillen]

Maybe check your connector pins - see if you have one not fully inserted. Dead power on that board is likely something simpler than the microcontroller chip. If you're convinced it is on the board, send it to me for a have-look if you like.

[Kiwi Dave]

I have an '06 wrx donor which has the push-style clutch. In trying to resolve our downshifting issue I'd like help with a bit of info. Can anybody verify for me the travel distance of the slave cylinder rod? Trying to figure out if the master cylinder/pedal aren't moving the slave far enough or if the issue is inside the transmission/clutch itself. Thanks!

Hi Fletch

I have an 07 WRX donor, so same setup as you. The slave cylinder rod on my car travels about 20 mm. I adjusted the top of the pedal stop by about 2 mm to allow more fluid to enter from the reservoir, so I'd say in stock travel is ~18 mm.

With regards your outside temp LCD, I can't comment on your issue but you might consider it a blessing it is not working as it annoys me to have a gague there that is completely uninformative. It does take several seconds to show the "--- oF" reading. It isn't supported by iWire, so I would like to eventually wire it in - I think it is used by the ECU for coolant temp errors.

Cheers

Dave

[fletch]

Pete, Dave, thanks for the suggestions and info. Just before you posted, Pete, I double checked how the slave cylinder rod mated with the lever and all looked well. I also removed the dust boot from the housing & greased the pivot ball as well as the slave cylinder seat in the lever arm.
After thinking on it a bit I decided that the problem might be insufficient travel of the slave cylinder so we lengthened the master cylinder pushrod and retested. This moved the engagement point to near the top end of the clutch pedal's travel. We overdid it, so we adjusted it a bit more to center that in the clutch pedal's travel. The result was very easy downshifts from 4 to 3. However, getting into 2nd is still impossible without enthusiastic throttle blips. I will check out slave cylinder travel against the 20mm you provided, Dave.
I'm thinking we're kind of stuck at this point with having to crack open the transmission to assess the problem better. My fear is that I have no idea what I'll be looking for and won't be able to come to any conclusions.

I'd welcome any more suggestions on how to diagnose the problem further as well as thoughts on what to do/not do if we open the transmission. Much appreciated.

[fletch]

Well, the problem isn't the LCD.
Our donor had the auto-AC option installed which means the exterior temperature sensor was wired into both the gauge cluster and the AC control module in the console. Apparently the AC module provided the stimulus (presumably a current source?) for the resistive temp sensor as well as a 5V reference to the cluster. I wired this mess into the cluster and the LCD turned right on. At one point or another, the sensor actually read the proper ambient temperature, but then got "stuck" at that value. So, we've got a display but it's not responding to changing temperatures. More troubleshooting soon...
I suspect there may be a power application sequence of some sort necessary to get this all to work. Both the cluster and the AC module have power inputs from battery, ACC, and IG. So perhaps we've got to get those all sequenced to reliably enable the temp sense circuit. I ran out of patience last night playing with it and needed to take a break. Hopefully more tonight.

Ideally, I'd like this all to be self-contained in the cluster so we can leave the AC module out of the build. I'm pretty sure I can locate a 5V reference on the cluster itself, but have no idea how to find or generate a current source for the temp sensor itself.

[aquillen]

Try putting a test meter set on current (probably will be no more than a few milliamps at most) in series with the sensor, see what current is has when working. Check voltage on it too. From that you might work out a supply circuit. That would be my next step. Whether CAN bus nonsense is going on along with all this - between the modules - is another potential roadblock, but maybe they didn't get that fancy.

[mcamera]

I'll be watching for your clutch updates. I have an 06' donor and similar problems. My clutch pedal is extremely stiff and won't push down all the way. I unbolted the slave last night and the rod moves freely when I push the clutch pedal. So like you, I'm worried something is wrong inside the trans or the rod on the master is traveling too little or too much. I'll let you know if I find my issue to see if it helps you too.

[mcamera]

It looks like bleeding the clutch again fixed my issue. I'm not sure why my pedal was rock solid and wouldn't press all the way down/move the slave though. I vacuum bled it the first time so maybe some valve in the system got stuck from the vacuum? This time I had a friend pump the pedal and I bled it the old fashioned way. I will say that it still took a couple tries. I think I was bleeding too much per pump and not keeping pressure in the system. The final bleeding I pumped the pedal by hand and could hear fluid being squirt through the lines. Once it built pressure I cracked open the bleeder valve 3 times, only letting a small amount of fluid out each time, and felt a couple of air pockets release. I extended the rod to the master cylinder to take some slack out of the system and everything is moving well now. I haven't started or driven the car yet to verify though.

Since your car starts and shifts well in other gears I don't think we have the same issue. But if you've been relying on a vacuum bleeder or have had varying results during several bleedings, that may be worth looking at again. Keep us in the loop and good luck troubleshooting.

[DSR-3]

Do ensure that there is some free play in the system, as in no load on the clutch when released. Pre-load, even if not enough to cause slippage, can eventually lead to wear on the crank-thrust surfaces and, well more bad things (at least on some engines). That was a hard lesson for me way back when...
Sounds like you are making good progress.

[Kiwi Dave]

. But if you've been relying on a vacuum bleeder or have had varying results during several bleedings, that may be worth looking at again. Keep us in the loop and good luck troubleshooting.

Ditto on the vacuum bleeder - I found the two person method worked much better for me also.

Cheers

Dave

[lance corsi]

I converted a caulking gun to pressurize the system from the slave towards the master. Just fill the ample sized cylinder, connect to the slave cyl via a modified bleeder fitting and start squeezing.

[fletch]

No news really. We bled the line again (manually, no vacuum used) being sure not to let all the pressure out each time. No obvious air bubbles and no improvement in second gear. I hear the concern about preload and suppose we will need to figure a way to assure there's no preload happening at the slave cylinder. It's clear we need to apply some preload at the master cylinder to get the pedal operational. By preload here I mean, we need to press the MC pushrod forward while inserting the pin in the clevis in order to make the engagement point near the middle of pedal travel. I'm not sure this preloading actually results in any movement of the slave cylinder, but we'll need to check at some point. Right now the biggest issue continues to be an inability to downshift to second without rev matching. I'm perplexed why this would be the case because the donor car was clearly loved and in good shape, before the roll-over that is, and I can't imagine the owner living without any easy downshift.

Oh well. I've got a line on a local who knows these transmissions and may be able to come advise. It's probably time to reach out to him.

[fletch]

Hit a bit of a wall with this one as well, so sorry for this post. It's a bit of stream-of-consciousness. Here's how we've wired in the Auto AC module to the cluster:
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There are also 3 power feeds to it that we've wired in (Batt, ACC, IG).
When I powered it on tonight, the display showed an entirely reasonable 64F. I put the sensor in an ice bath and watched the display drop all the way to 34F. Then I took it out of the ice bath and put it in a warm water bath. It never moved from 34F. I measured across the temp sensor and could see the voltage decreasing with increasing temperature, increasing when going colder, but the display was stuck at 34F. Then I decided to disconnect the sensor.A few seconds after disconnecting the sensor, the display showed ---F. Reconnecting the sensor made no change to the display. Power cycling the ignition & ACC caused the display to show 34F again.

I then pulled all power from the car for a bit and switched everything back on with the sensor in air. Display showed 71F. Put the sensor in the warm bath, saw the voltage across the sensor change, but the display stayed at 71F.

I just verified for a second time that the display will decrease with temperature, but not increase. This is a really weird behavior.

I haven't been able to measure the drive current due to meter issues, but will do that by measuring voltage across a known resistance in the near future. It's a bit pointless now since the display doesn't seem to consistently track the change in sensor resistance.

And it's spring break for my kids so I'll be off the grid & away from the garage for a bit. Any suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

[JimLev]

Fletch, sure sounds like synchro problems.
I’ve got a few spare meters and a Motive pressure bleeder if you want to borrow them. The pressure bleeder uses a screw-on cap with a standard 1/4” quick disconnect fitting so you could cobble something together if my cap doesn’t fit on your reservoir.
I also have a vacuum bleeder, but need to check if it’s still working OK.
When I bleed I usually have the vacuum on the caliper and the pressure on the brake reservoir.
Text me if you want.
My ‘33 hotrod is about 90% done, hope to have it registered this summer.

[fletch]

I just completed a long consult with a local transmission specialist who basically confirmed the synchro is likely shot. As a short-term fix he recommended using GM synchromesh oil. But I'm leaning heavily toward just fixing the problem. Crappy shifting in traffic and during spirited driving will substantially decrease our enjoyment of the car. So, now we're looking into tearing down the transmission. I would welcome any wisdom you have to share on:
1) This plan
2) Parts sources
3) How-to guides or videos
4) What else to inspect or replace while we're at it.

For background, as far as we can tell it's a completely OEM setup from a 2006 WRX with just over 96k miles on it.
As ever, we're grateful for your help.

[fletch]

Anybody got any words of wisdom before we yank the transmission out?
(Once we commit to a plan of action we tend to go all in. It’s the whole “burn the ships” mentality.)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

here is a of thread on this forum. Much more on youtube.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?9909-THE-Transmission-Thread-2-0-Now-with-Pictures&p=97663&viewfull=1#post97663

[STiPWRD]

Here's my experience with taking the trans apart, man I can't believe it's been 7 years! Time flies! The link at the end of the post goes into much more depth, I found it very helpful. Don't forget to torque the 4 bolts on the inside when putting it back together - they're on a flange that ties the two halves together, right inside the transfer case.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13462-NoVa-818-Build&p=143142&viewfull=1#post143142

[fletch]

here is a of thread on this forum. Much more on youtube.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?9909-THE-Transmission-Thread-2-0-Now-with-Pictures&p=97663&viewfull=1#post97663


Here's my experience with taking the trans apart, man I can't believe it's been 7 years! Time flies! The link at the end of the post goes into much more depth, I found it very helpful. Don't forget to torque the 4 bolts on the inside when putting it back together - they're on a flange that ties the two halves together, right inside the transfer case.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13462-NoVa-818-Build&p=143142&viewfull=1#post143142

Always humbling to be pointed to pre-existing threads on the forum. I'm grateful you didn't provide instructions for how to use the forum search box, as would be the case on so many other forums.

Armed with those links, the service manual, and YouTube, we're planning to pull the transmission out this weekend.

[Sgt.Gator]

While you have it in pieces consider adding a -AN port on top for a future trans fluid cooler install.

[Jetfuel]

Always humbling to be pointed to pre-existing threads on the forum. I'm grateful you didn't provide instructions for how to use the forum search box, as would be the case on so many other forums.

...and that’s what makes this place a class act...

Jet. Thank you all

[fletch]

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Now we can say we’ve torn apart a transmission. Hopefully soon we can say we put one back together. Because I don’t know what I’m looking for, everything seems ok. But I sent some pictures to an acquaintance more familiar with these who says he sees some parts that need replacing. Should know more Monday when he stops by.

[JimLev]

How do the teeth on the synchros look, are the worn or chipped?
When you drained the fluid were there any metallic specs in it?

Have you got the powder you ordered yet?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Fletch
I added an arrow to your picture that points to the second gear synchro.
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Here is a good video on what to look for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4osHqh70PWc
Bob

[fletch]

Jim, Bob - Thanks for the questions and pointers. I'll post up later tonight what I learn after giving things a closer look.

The blue powder should arrive today. I might wait to coat the parts until after the transmission situation is resolved or we might do some of them in between. I actually wondered how the trans case would look powdercoated... Not sure it will fit in the oven... and pretty sure I didn't order enough powder for that.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Fletch,
I didn't have the luxury of splitting my transmission. Here is a picture of mine. The front half is rattle can Alumiblast from Eastwood and the rear section was just cleaned.
Powdered would by nice, Make sure you tape off all the mating surfaces, tolerances are pretty tight.

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[fletch]

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Rob T is sending me the gear set from his old transmission. Kinda fitting since that was the transmission that lost the pinion gear, blew a hole in the case, and spread gear oil all over Sandia Motor Speedway here in Albuquerque. In some sense, those gears are heading back home! Hopefully, I'll get to run them at Sandia once again.

[fletch]

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Looks like a good time to get a new clutch as well. Any suggestions on what to buy would be welcome. The choices on Rockauto range from $150 to $900. This will be a street driven car with a few autocross sessions each year.

[JimLev]

Did you order 2 lbs of powder or was it just one pound?
If the 1/2 case will fit in the oven go for it. It will take longer to cure as the mass is much greater that the small parts you want to do. Do you have an IR temp gun? If not you can use mine.

Those gears will make good paper weights and garage wall art!
The stock clutch, PP, etc should be OK and the 818 is lighter than the car the drivetrain came out of.

1 Lb of powder will go a long way. You can put a plastic sheet in the bottom of the “spray booth” to collect the powder that falls to the bottom. It can be used again.

[fletch]

1 lb of powder was ordered. We decided against powdercoating the trans case because we think it will look a bit weird. I like Bob's approach of painting it silver. We may do that.
Regarding the clutch plate, I think it's in need of replacement. Also the throw out bearing. Not sure about the other parts.

[JimLev]

The clutch disc has seen better days. The pressure plate may be ok if there are no cracks in it, clean up the heat marks and see what it looks like, same for the flywheel.
The throw out bearing and pilot shaft bearing should be replaced. They aren’t expensive, you don’t want to pull everything apart in a few years to replace them.

[fletch]

We've been thinking about trying to get road-legal ASAP. Eventually, we expect to paint the car, but we'll probably run just the gel coat for a period of time. The question is: what might we regret about running in gel coat before painting the body?
Seems like we might need to remove the windshield to properly paint the body. Also, the headlight lenses - this is a coupe with the new nose. Are these concerns valid? Are there other aspects we're not thinking about?
Thanks.

[Ajzride]

The biggest down side in my opinion is that it is almost impossible to get all the dust out of a complete car that you do body work on. My mustang has been painted 10 years and I still have dust shakes out of cracks into the engine bay and trunk today.

[idf]

We've been thinking about trying to get road-legal ASAP. Eventually, we expect to paint the car, but we'll probably run just the gel coat for a period of time. The question is: what might we regret about running in gel coat before painting the body?
Seems like we might need to remove the windshield to properly paint the body. Also, the headlight lenses - this is a coupe with the new nose. Are these concerns valid? Are there other aspects we're not thinking about?
Thanks.

We dealt with the same question 5 years ago and decided to go with putting the car on the road and painting later. The biggest downside to that decision? We're still in gel coat. We have just enjoyed driving the car and have not wanted to take it apart to paint. One of the obstacles has also been the dust referred to by AJ. We buffed the gel coat and while there are rough edges the average person looking at the car remarks on how good it looks. We still plan to paint some day. As we say every year, maybe next winter.

[fletch]

The biggest down side in my opinion is that it is almost impossible to get all the dust out of a complete car that you do body work on. My mustang has been painted 10 years and I still have dust shakes out of cracks into the engine bay and trunk today.

Thanks for the reply AJ. I'm not certain I understand your comment about dust. Are you referring to dust that would be caused by sanding the body while it's installed on the car? We would plan to remove the body completely from the car for sanding & painting. But maybe I'm misunderstanding...

[fletch]

<big sigh>
Looks like this was another learning experience of sorts...
The good news: According to my new friend Ryan, the synchros in the transmission we tore apart look spectacular. Not only that, the main shaft, the shift fork inserts, several bearings, and a few gears appear to be very new. Although the engine had 96k miles on it, the transmission looks like it was rebuilt recently.
The bad news: The poor downshifting issue was probably caused by incorrect gear oil. Another embarassing situation. I bought the wrong weight oil several months ago when I found what I thought was the right stuff at a store that was going out of business. I never double-checked and didn't catch my mistake. Also, we damaged some bearings during the disassembly. Those suckers are pricey - roughly $100 each, and one of them is $230.
Some more semi-good news: The clutch certainly needs replacing. Two of the gear sets are chipped and need replacing. These were probably not replaced during the recent rebuild. The gears likely would have come apart rapidly during future use.
Awful news: All told, we're looking at almost $1800 to fully rebuild this thing.

So, we're crossing our fingers that we can make a complete transmission using parts from our main & driven shafts + the gear sets Rob T is sending our way. We'll still need to buy a couple bearings and several seals, but hopefully that will do it. Oh, and I also bought the right gear oil... This was a tough one. Just one of those stupid mistakes.

[Ajzride]

We’ve all been there.

[Sgt.Gator]

IMHO the only right gear oils for Subaru manuals is the OEM Subaru gear oil or Redline 75W90NS.

Note: Do not put Redline Shockproof in a Subbie trans.

[fletch]

Went to my local dealer who said they don’t sell it anymore. Gave me specs of GL-5 80w-90. My local guy said to buy that in synthetic and include 1 qt of GM Synchromesh in the fill. I suppose by posting this stuff I’m encouraging the back and forth, but really would welcome insights.
Gator, does the “NS” at the end of the Redline PN mean not synthetic? Or something else?
Thanks for the input.

[STiPWRD]

+1 for 75W-90. I use Motul gear 300.

Also, regarding the rebuild, it you're at $1800, why not just find another used 5 speed? I found one in my area last year on FB Marketplace for $300 from an 03 wrx. Just a thought.

[JimLev]

Went to my local dealer who said they don’t sell it anymore. Gave me specs of GL-5 80w-90. My local guy said to buy that in synthetic and include 1 qt of GM Synchromesh in the fill. I suppose by posting this stuff I’m encouraging the back and forth, but really would welcome insights.
Gator, does the “NS” at the end of the Redline PN mean not synthetic? Or something else?
Thanks for the input.

How are you making out on the transaxle?
Info.....
https://www.redlineoil.com/75w90-ns-gl-5-gear-oil

[Hobby Racer]

does the “NS” at the end of the Redline PN mean not synthetic? Or something else?
Thanks for the input.

It means "no slip" This is for gear boxes that do not have clutch type LSD's.

I ran Red Line 75W90NS GL-5 Gear Oil (https://www.redlineoil.com/75w90-ns-gl-5-gear-oil) in my 5MT and it was great, shifted very nice. I have 6 qts left I can sell you for a good price, new never opened. if your interested

[fletch]

Thanks for the explanation Hobby. I’m interested in the Redline. PM me with your price, please. My zip code is 87124.

StiPWRD, a replacement transmission is definitely a possibility. At the moment, I’m waiting for a replacement gear set from Rob T to see if I can drop it in to my case. If that works, then I think we’ll be done. If not, I’ll be looking for other solutions.

Jim, no progress on the trans yet. Lots of clean up of electrical wiring, though. Pics soon.

[fletch]

I swapped in Rob T's complete main shaft assembly along with his driven gear shaft, but retained the old pinion shaft because his pinion gear was broken. The differential is also from our old gear set.
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We did not move the differential side retainers during disassembly - these are the adjusters in the case halves. I presume since the same differential is being used, we don't need to measure or adjust backlash on the diff. Anybody know if this is true?

I am a bit concerned that there may be another backlash adjustment I'm missing. In the manual, the only adjustment for the pinion shaft is the thrust bearing preload. I believe this is obviated by the use of the double-splined center differential lockout adapter from FFR. Though, honestly I'm not sure. I'd appreciate any help you all can offer.

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[Hobby Racer]

You should not have to adjust the pinion backlash as it has not changed. There is another backlash adjustment on the pinion shaft, the stack of thin shims between 5th gear and the case bearing but it should not need changes. I did not need to change mine when I swapped some gears in my 5MT.

[aquillen]

You have put enough effort into this - I'd suggest you consider checking the pinion backlash anyway. If for nothing more than (a) bragging rights to yourself that you did it (b) not relying on whether it was all that correct before you came along (3) it will not seem like all that much of a hassle once it is half done and for that matter all done (4) now you are a pro (or closer).

I rather dreaded it thinking it was above my pay grade, then did it (and I had about 3 or 4 adjustment cycles - open the case, adjust it, close the case and check it) and really felt like a hot shot when I was done. Transmissions like toasters, are complicated and MUST be serviced by professionals, not hackers. But if you can follow instructions and do careful work maybe you can become a pro instead of a hacker.

In my case my pinion and crown were replaced by me (so had to check it) due to a rather large bit of other gear tooth that had gotten between the two before I inherited the trans.

[fletch]

I hear you, Art. And I'm thinking I may follow your suggestion and just do it myself. The problem for me is that I'm not sure which set of instructions to follow for setting the driven/pinion shaft in its proper fore/aft position. Hindsight did me a huge favor in showing how to set the left/right position and preload on the differential here https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16706-Limited-slip-installation-instructions-with-pics.

But I've looked through the FSM for the 06 donor and can't find anything more about the driven/pinion shaft aside from the "thrust bearing preload" I mention in a post above. Am I missing something there, or is that shaft just fine where it is and the diff procedure handles all the backlash adjustment?

[aquillen]

I've got an 06 manual and will look it over to see if there is a gem in there.

[fletch]

OK. I re-read the whole FSM portion on the transmission today and see that I can perform the backlash setting on the differential per Hindsight's guidance, including measuring with the dial gauge. After that, I can perform the hypoid gear tooth contact test to confirm or correct the pinion shaft shim thickness. Would appreciate the double check. Would also like to hear what others have used as a gear contact witness in place of the FSM's "red lead."

[aquillen]

Glad you found it, knew it had to be in there. I used Permatex "Prussian Blue" in tube paste. Item# 80038. Napa or Autozone, either or both have it, don't recall which.

[fletch]

Can we install this aluminum panel now, or do we need to wait until the hardtop is in place so we can snug it up properly?
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We would like to put it in and tidy things up a bit wiring-wise.

[Santiago]

Can we install this aluminum panel now, or do we need to wait until the hardtop is in place so we can snug it up properly?


So that's where that thing goes...

=)

Sorry, just a little R-to-C builder humor. They sent it with the kit, but I didn't use that panel (until I cut it up and found new life for it).

[FFRWRX]

Can we install this aluminum panel now, or do we need to wait until the hardtop is in place so we can snug it up properly?

Good question. I’d like to know that too. Not sure about the order of hardtop, dash, that piece, windshield.

[STiPWRD]

Can we install this aluminum panel now, or do we need to wait until the hardtop is in place so we can snug it up properly?
I'm building the S but the wind shield cowl is very similar underneath to the coupe. I'd suggest waiting until you have the roof in place. You may either have to trim that sheet later or end up with a gap.

[Dave 53]

I would wait until the windshield trim is in. If you're anxious, just do a rivet on each end, but wait to drill the rest of the rivet holes until you have the windshield trim installed.

[fletch]

Thanks for the several responses. Very helpful.
I’ll wait to secure it with two rivets (probably Clecos, tbh) until after we spend some time at our local track ironing some things out. We won’t tie it down completely until we get the hardtop aligned properly.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I spit that aluminum piece in the middle and trimmed it to go around my wiper motor.

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