View Full Version : Side Pipe Cut-Outs - Normal?
Thought I'd check with the forum experts before I fire-up the saw to massage the side pipe openings.
Is it normal to have this much variance of where the headers exit?
The PS lines up well but the DS header seems high. I have the BBK headers included in the complete kit and am initially using the FF5 side pipes but will ultimately install Gas-N pipes.
The front and back quickjacks are installed and the body otherwise appears to be sitting well on the chassis.
Passenger side:
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Driver side:
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Edit: Sorry the pics posted 90 degrees off.
Thanks for the help.
michael everson
08-29-2019, 03:53 PM
I wouldn't cut that. You need to find out if the engine is sitting properly as well as the body. If everything looks ok, pull the header and see if there is anything on the mounting surface preventing it from sitting flat. If that all checks out I would call FFR.
Mike
I wouldn't cut that. You need to find out if the engine is sitting properly as well as the body. If everything looks ok, pull the header and see if there is anything on the mounting surface preventing it from sitting flat. If that all checks out I would call FFR.
Mike
Thanks Mike. The engine is sitting well seated on the motor mounts. What other way is there to see if the motor is sitting properly?
Ducky2009
08-29-2019, 04:12 PM
Measure from the floor up to the headers? Are both sides the same? Also measure from the lip of the front fender to the cutout on each side. Are they the same?
I have a Coyote with the 4 into 4 headers. I only have about an 1/8" difference from the fender well to the front of the headers.
NOTE" I did have to remove a little material to enlarge the cutouts, but nothing close to that.
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g
Measure from the floor up to the headers? Are both sides the same? Also measure from the lip of the front fender to the cutout on each side. Are they the same?
I have a Coyote with the 4 into 4 headers. I only have about an 1/8" difference from the fender well to the front of the headers.
NOTE" I did have to remove a little material to enlarge the cutouts, but nothing close to that.
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The DS header is 8 inches from the floor while the PS is 7.5 inches.
Can you confirm the header is flush along the bottom edge of the flange where it meets the head? A 1/6" gap there can easily equal 1/2" at the end where the side pipes connect.
OVCobra
08-29-2019, 04:57 PM
Had the same problem as I believe that others have...with the engine level (side to side) this results. It appears to be a design or fabrication flaw with BBK. While less than ideal, I fabricated a 7° plate to tilt the header down, problem solved. Unfortunately have to deal with 2 sealing surfaces but seemed like the least of evils.
I believe that others have cut and rewelded the header or used wedge plates at the "4 into 4" flange while others have installed the motor "off level"...then need to adjust the openings on both driver and passenger side.
Dave
Had the same problem as I believe that others have...with the engine level (side to side) this results. It appears to be a design or fabrication flaw with BBK. While less than ideal, I fabricated a 7° plate to tilt the header down, problem solved. Unfortunately have to deal with 2 sealing surfaces but seemed like the least of evils.
I believe that others have cut and rewelded the header or used wedge plates at the "4 into 4" flange while others have installed the motor "off level"...then need to adjust the openings on both driver and passenger side.
Dave
You know, when I talked to Gas-N pipes a few months back about ordering some sidepipes, he mentioned that I ought to see how the headers lined up first, that there was an issue with the kit supplied headers for the 302. Guess this might be it.
Can you confirm the header is flush along the bottom edge of the flange where it meets the head? A 1/6" gap there can easily equal 1/2" at the end where the side pipes connect.
Thanks Papa...it is flush.
If the BBKs are flawed, I think my way ahead is to ask FF5 for a refund and then order some GP headers.
Too me it looks like the cut outs are too far back, or at least need to be cut further forward. Mine cut right up to the back of the fender flares.
I have a 302 with the BBKs as well, I did my own cutouts but had to make them way bigger than the FFR templates.
mike223
08-29-2019, 08:05 PM
The engine is sitting well seated on the motor mounts. What other way is there to see if the motor is sitting properly?
Before you get too excited - loosen the motor mount + transmission mount bolts, lift the engine slightly - and "rock it around" to see if you can get it all to mate up a little better.
How exactly did you reach the conclusion that the engine + transmission are in there "perfectly"?
All the mounting surfaces / mounts have "play", and you're looking at very, very minor alignment adjustments to make everything line up considerably better.
It is exactly what you're going to have to do with any set of headers for this application - I don't care who made them...
BadAsp427
08-29-2019, 09:11 PM
You know, when I talked to Gas-N pipes a few months back about ordering some sidepipes, he mentioned that I ought to see how the headers lined up first, that there was an issue with the kit supplied headers for the 302. Guess this might be it.
This is exactly it... I have been working with GAS-n for the past several months because I had the exact problem with the BBK headers that I bought from FFR. I contacted FFR and Blueprint and they state there is/should be no problem. Well, there is a problem. However, working with GAS-n we have a set of headers that fit the Blueprint Aluminum Heads in the MK4. If all goes well, I can show photos next week as I should be getting the new headers installed along with the GAS-n Sidepipes. Check with Georgie....
... order some GP headers.
This is what I did. Very happy with the result.
edwardb
08-29-2019, 09:24 PM
1. The Factory Five cutouts are significantly undersized (purposely) and in my experience may not even be completely symmetrical from side-to-side. So don't draw all your conclusions from what you see there.
2. The side pipes will exit the body slightly below and behind the cutouts. You'll find that out when you actually start cutting to fit. So don't judge strictly from how they look straight on.
3. You describe the PS as higher than the DS. Very common to need to adjust the engine in the mounts. When installing, it will fall into place and pretty much jam where it drops. My approach: Loosen the big nut on the motor mounts, put a floor jack under the low header, jack up with moderate pressure (don't have to get carried away), and tighten while still under pressure. Release and measure. You may need to try a couple times but unless the pin is against the top of the slot, should be able to eliminate the difference. A small change can make a big difference.
4. You can also adjust the alignment by moving the tail of the transmission, again within reason.
5. Are your front splash guards installed? Can't tell from the pics. That too affects the pipe exit location. Don't trim or cut anything until those are installed.
6. I'm assuming your body is located in it's final and correct location, e.g. front-to-back, side-to-side, confirmed by proper fit of everything including doors, hood, and trunk lid.
In my experience, what you're looking at is not particularly unusual and can be adjusted to fit. I've used the BBK headers a couple times and found them to be good quality. I've used both GP Headers and Gas-N headers, both on Coyotes, and they worked well. But also not without some tweaking like I've described. There are so many variables with headers and side pipes, and just the smallest differences translate to improper alignment. Just have to work through them. The new Factory Five ball joint headers are intended to make this fitting process easier. Haven't seen any real world experience with those yet. Interested to see how it goes.
How exactly did you reach the conclusion that the engine + transmission are in there "perfectly"?
Thanks Mike. Perfect? What I can say is that as it sits now, there is good surface to surface contact between the motor mounts, engine block, and chassis mounts. The nubs in the motor mounts are aligned in the holes in the chassis. A level placed across the air cleaner has the bubble dead center level.
I'll give twisting the engine a shot, but it sure seems like it won't be enough - not sure the picture captured how off it is. And considering the above posts and their experience with the same issue...ugh.
In my experience, what you're looking at is not particularly unusual and can be adjusted to fit. I've used the BBK headers a couple times and found them to be good quality. I've used both GP Headers and Gas-N headers, both on Coyotes, and they worked well. But also not without some tweaking like I've described. There are so many variables with headers and side pipes, and just the smallest differences translate to improper alignment. Just have to work through them. The new Factory Five ball joint headers are intended to make this fitting process easier. Haven't seen any real world experience with those yet. Interested to see how it goes.
Thanks for sharing your detailed approach. I'll give it a try.
Much obliged!
Jeff Kleiner
08-30-2019, 05:43 AM
I'm going to back up a little and ask an obvious question which I haven't seen answered yet...have you actually tried to hang the pipes on it? Angles and curves come into play once the pipes get mated to the headers and you may find that things are closer than you think. Everything edwardb said is correct and as he alluded to you can't tell anything just by eyeballing it.
Jeff
CraigS
08-30-2019, 05:55 AM
Another option is to use spacer washers between the passenger side mount and the engine block.
I'm going to back up a little and ask an obvious question which I haven't seen answered yet...have you actually tried to hang the pipes on it? Angles and curves come into play once the pipes get mated to the headers and you may find that things are closer than you think. Everything edwardb said is correct and as he alluded to you can't tell anything just by eyeballing it.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff. Yes, the PS side went on easily although the opening will need some trimming. No luck for the DS.
brewha
08-30-2019, 07:00 PM
Mike223 hit right on the button.... everyone puts the engine and torques it down with excitement wanting to finish this major accomplishment. My original measurements were 8 inches and 6 inches per side. After loosening, prodding, and adjusting, both sides were exactly 7 inches.
When you get to putting the body on and adjusting the size of the exhaust cut outs.... you need to measure the distance between the tips of the bolt, or nut of the exhaust headers to the side pipes and how close it is to the body.... you want at least a 1/2 inch between the tip of the bolt and the body. Fiberglass will burn through if it gets too hot.....
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mike223
08-30-2019, 09:20 PM
Mike223 hit right on the button.... everyone puts the engine and torques it down with excitement wanting to finish this major accomplishment. My original measurements were 8 inches and 6 inches per side. After loosening, prodding, and adjusting, both sides were exactly 7 inches.
Thanks for the shout-out, let me add one of my own - edwardb's detailed approach was excellent.
Here's the key point:
When installing, it will fall into place and pretty much jam where it drops.
My particular case of OCD has required 20+ engine and transmission in + out installations, and 20+ body on and off installations (call it "eat up with the OCD", lol).
The body falls pretty much in the same place every time.
The engine wedges into slightly different angles every time due mostly to wedging between the diagonal motor mounts (frame).
So, in the context of in and out 20+ times, with the same stuff, here is my (OCD) procedure:
1 - Drop in engine + transmission, leave the bolts loose, leave the lift attached to the engine, and a (rolling) jack under the transmission.
2- Install headers + sidepipes + "rock it around" until the sidepipes are level + parallel + equidistant to the frame rails.
3- Now ease it in + torque it down + recheck.
No wedges or new headers required.
But know that the motor mounts will wedge themselves between the frame mounts in a new way every single time.
And it takes very minor alignment adjustments to correct this.
Mike223 hit right on the button.... everyone puts the engine and torques it down with excitement wanting to finish this major accomplishment. My original measurements were 8 inches and 6 inches per side. After loosening, prodding, and adjusting, both sides were exactly 7 inches.
When you get to putting the body on and adjusting the size of the exhaust cut outs.... you need to measure the distance between the tips of the bolt, or nut of the exhaust headers to the side pipes and how close it is to the body.... you want at least a 1/2 inch between the tip of the bolt and the body. Fiberglass will burn through if it gets too hot.....
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Thanks Brewha. Good info.
Thanks again Mike 223. All good info for us newbies.