Project 818 Design Submissions

[Mad Dog]

Hi everyone,

We will be posting entries from the Project 818 Design Contest into an album so people can see all of submissions. We're going to be starting out with ones most of your have seen, but will be adding to the gallery on a regular basis as we get more of the photos web friendly (they were all submitted in hi-res). I have contacted one of our forum members to help so that will help speed up the process. So stay tuned to this thread and the album as there will be new content added often.

Click here to view the complete album of Project 818 submissions. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)

[Oppenheimer]

Cool! Can you include which one were the design contest winners?

I know its asking a lot, but would it be possible to add the alternate views for the submissions? Maybe when you click on the thumbnail, you get all the available views? Maybe we just do this for some of the more popular ones? Especially the ones we haven't seen before? (obviously that means we have to wait and see which ones people want to see more of, as you won't know which of the never-seen-before are going to be popular).

[Mad Dog]

Not sure I'll be able to group them quite as you described, but will try to post as many views as we can of the different submissions, especially if they're one of the winners. The photos that are in the gallery right now are the various winners and I will try to add more ASAP.

[kach22i]

Cool.

[Mad Dog]

More designs have been posted. Again, this round is from ones you may have already seen, but we're working on getting others ready to post. Should have some more ready for tomorrow.

[kach22i]

I think with a little bit of work, that some of these designs can be inhabitable by normal sized humans.

I like this one, enough to do a overlay of it at least.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/JimmeyFogolini-overlay2.jpg

[PhyrraM]

I like this one. I have never seen it before. Reminds me of the classic, pre ultra exotic, Ferrari 308.

I'm not sure if it's the overlayed material or just the basic design, but it looks tiny - as I think the 818 should.

Scott Bradford's semi-retro, semi modern coupe is also one that I think should get more attention, I'm hoping it's the super secret #5.

Marc Senger's designs, while controversial in styling, were also some of the best.

Really looking forward to seeing some more we haven't seen yet.

[D2W]

I had not seen this design either. Retro but not old looking, I like how he thought out different options for the top/door/windows.

[Oppenheimer]

[QUOTE=PhyrraM;31637]Scott Bradford's semi-retro, semi modern coupe is also one that I think should get more attention, I'm hoping it's the super secret #5.[QUOTE]

There was also another early fan fav, the one that had a little 'FiberFab' 70's kit to its profile, but was killer otherwise. Expected to see more of that one, too. Can't recall whose it was, too tired and lazy to look it up (still at work, long day). But I hear I got power back on at home!

[Mad Dog]

We've uploaded 25 new images to the Project 818 Design Contest Submissions gallery (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160). Here's a few of the new uploads.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4016&d=1315405726

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4007&d=1315405719

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4020&d=1315405730

[kach22i]

I still really like Team KT's design, wish I had a side view though.

I picked a few designs to get a better measure of what I was looking at, template wise.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OVERLAY-AlessioMinchella2.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OVERLAY-AndreasVanSpeybroeck.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OVERLAY-SachaSoulie.jpg
DID THIS ONE TWICE...................
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OVERLAY2-SachaSoulie.jpg

Some curious things happening. One thing I've seen time and time again is the TEMPLATE challenge making this look like a mid-engine car, quite a few look like front engine cars to me, some are rather nice despite it all.

Alex's design is a good example of this front engine look.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160&attachmentid=4002

[mekeys]

Glad to see the posting has begun..

[BipDBo]

I know its asking a lot, but would it be possible to add the alternate views for the submissions?

I would first like to thank Mad Dog for doing this. It's fun to look at all of these great designs.

It's a lot of work to delete the contact info for each drawing and then post it when you have 700 submissions to work with. I think, therefore, we should be happy with one view per submission. Each designer can add more views in the comment thread of the picture if he/she wishes.

[Mad Dog]

Some submissions only have the one entry and in the cases where there are several views, I'm trying to pick a 2 or 3 views. I should have some more submissions posted later on today. I edited/sized down a bunch more yesterday afternoon and plan on getting some more ready this morning before posting.

[Mad Dog]

Got a few more images posted and have a few things to figure out with the gallery before more are posted. Here's a few of the additions to the gallery...

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4047&d=1315492461

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4051&d=1315492469

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4049&d=1315492463

Click here to view the complete album of Project 818 submissions. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)

[Mad Dog]

Got some more posted. 100 images are now in the gallery. Dave H. is helping make it possible so that all submissions can be in one gallery so I have a few more ready to post, but we've already maxed out the limit. Will see what we can do for options to include the rest.

Here are some more samples from the gallery.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4093&d=1315496672

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4089&d=1315496669

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4077&d=1315496653

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4087&d=1315496667

Click here to view the complete album of Project 818 submissions. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)

[mekeys]

Thanks for posting the first 100..
Now on to the next 100..
Mel

[kach22i]

These latest additions really are in stride with the concept of "a wide range of variety" which I have been waiting for. Some really clever stuff in there, thanks for posting.

[shinn497]

I am really liking ashley lewin`s design.. It is super exotic and head turning

[D2W]

(Please note that I am including myself in the following category)

Although there are a few good designs in the gallery, I now realize why most of us are not car designers:)

[kitcarj]

Even if you have a great idea in your mind, without the skill to put it on paper or in the computer, you can end up with something that looks like you could have drawn in the 4th grade. I know that is how mine turned out.
Hey, I thought you "can (could) do anything with enough time and money." :)
(Please note that I am including myself in the following category)

Although there are a few good designs in the gallery, I now realize why most of us are not car designers:)

[PhyrraM]

It must be very hard to stay away from the "heavy haunches" look on a mid engined car. That seems to be a very common problem (IMHO) with most of the submissions so far. Maybe it's the common use of extremely large wheels in the drawings/renders that steers the size of the back half of the car?

Of course, I can't draw, or I might have likely fell into the same trap.

Not too concerned, as the cars are already being modeled, but something I noticed and find interesting.

[kach22i]

I am really liking ashley lewin`s design.. It is super exotic and head turning

The perspectives and use of color are very dynamic on A.L.'s presentation. The side view is hunky, which as others have noted is hard to avoid. However, it's not the fact that it's mid-engined, (the Boxster fits), I think it's more the fact that the rear overhang cantilevers the rear mass in an unflattering manner.

Overlay to show what the heck is going on.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OVERLAY-AshleyLewin.jpg

[D2W]

Even if you have a great idea in your mind, without the skill to put it on paper or in the computer, you can end up with something that looks like you could have drawn in the 4th grade. I know that is how mine turned out.
Hey, I thought you "can (could) do anything with enough time and money." :)

Yes I agree, I know exactly what I want, but I have no way to communicate that idea. And yes I "can" do anything, but in this case the time would be years, and the money needed would be enormous for the best design teachers available:)

[flyboy2160]

I think with a little bit of work, that some of these designs can be inhabitable by normal sized humans.

I like this one, enough to do a overlay of it at least.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/JimmeyFogolini-overlay2.jpg

so far, kach's overlay is the only side view i really like. but i didn't see any other views of this design. does anybody have them?

i don't like the winning car at all. i agree with whoever said its front looks like a catfish. and i'm sick of those throwback driver headrest humps as a styling gimmick.

[kach22i]

any other views............

i don't like the winning car at all..................... and i'm sick of those throwback driver headrest humps as a styling gimmick.

Don't expect any other views. If you can hunt down this person's user name and send them a PM or e-mail you might get something out of it. I tried that with the team out of Greece a few months ago and got nothing back, so there is no guarantee.

About the wining car, I'm pretty sure that a fastback coupe alternate will be the high gas mileage version of the 818, if true then there are no humps to worry about.

[Silvertop]

i don't like the winning car at all. i agree with whoever said its front looks like a catfish. and i'm sick of those throwback driver headrest humps as a styling gimmick.

I hate to split hairs, but the the car some feel looks like a catfish is actually the contest third-place car, not the winner. But most of us like it anyways.............

[Mad Dog]

Got a some more designs added to the gallery this morning. Will try to get more posted soon. Here's a couple of the new submissions:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4144&d=1315838094

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4146&d=1315838096

Click here to view the Project 818 Design Contest Submissions gallery. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)

[vozproto]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4146&d=1315838096

Looks like an Aston Martin and a Bugatti had a few too many at the hotel bar and had a love-child.
ME LIKEY

[VTX]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4093&d=1315496672


That's pretty cool and exotic looking. I wonder if it would fit the template or not?

[shinn497]

Man I'm loving the above two. Low to the ground with lines that are both sweeping and elegant and edgey angressive. It really makes me wonder about the winners, they seem so plebian by comparison. Do you tthat FFR chose them because they would be easier to manufacture?

[D2W]

Man I'm loving the above two. Low to the ground with lines that are both sweeping and elegant and edgey angressive. It really makes me wonder about the winners, they seem so plebian by comparison. Do you tthat FFR chose them because they would be easier to manufacture?

Maybe, but I'm more inclined to agree with your earlier thought that the winners were chosen because they were more pedestrian and more likely to be liked by a larger group of people. Xabier's design while nice looking is not super aggressive, but it does seem to be the most universally liked out of all the designs. I think I liked Rodney Olmos design more (the second place winner) because it was a little edgier.

[shinn497]

Well there will be five designs and I think they will cover a range of tastes. Dave claims to make it really dramatic and the community will respond. I wonder why there is so much claimed love love for xabier however. I did a search and there will only a couple of posts in praise in the design winners thread but I did not search them all. I bet there is more I missed during the actual contest. Again I think the three that one were picked for their practicality as well as their beauty. Something like Ben Hermance's is complicated and would increase the difficulty to produce and paint. The price of this kit is a mere 10,000$. It will be their cheapest yet.

Also I can't help but wonder what the demographics of this forum are. I wonder if anyone else is a fresh out of college young'n living in socal like me. One thing about the 818 is that it will chart new territory. It features a japanese donor car, is very affordable (Its completion price is less than a GTM kit price), and FFR's second unique design. I could see this car appealing towards the tuner/touge/drift crowd. That is what gets me so excited. While many of my compadres boast about their integras, evos, WRX's, miatas, and even GT-R**s. No one can pull up with a mid engine ROCKET (unless they have a lotus). This car has a potential to really stand out in a world where uniqueness is everything but it can't do that without a really head turning design.

**The existence of the GT-R begets my obsession with a sub 3s 0-60 esp since this car can't be modded easily. Call me crazy but I think anyone would be to aspire to drive something I built ><

[Niburu]

Shinn I can only speak for myself on Xabiers design, I loved it because it wasn't overdone, it had some fairly realistic proportions, and also what it doesn't have; a high belt line, straight edges everywhere, and big blocky shapes.
Basically I found a much more elegant design than most of the other entries.
As to the demographics, I'm sure the price point will push this down an age bracket or 2 but it'll still be us 30+ guys with a house and garage.

[Silvertop]

Shinn I can only speak for myself on Xabiers design, I loved it because it wasn't overdone, it had some fairly realistic proportions, and also what it doesn't have; a high belt line, straight edges everywhere, and big blocky shapes.
Basically I found a much more elegant design than most of the other entries.
As to the demographics, I'm sure the price point will push this down an age bracket or 2 but it'll still be us 30+ guys with a house and garage.

I like Xabier's design for pretty much the same reason as Niburu. If you check the other project threads, you will probably pick up on the fact that it is overall the most universally liked design. But there are a lot of folks who like some of the edgier, more extreme shapes. I suspect that age and background may in fact have something to do with design preferences. I'm sure it is one of the reasons FFR is going to offer multiple bodies for the 818. Hopefully, there will be something for everybody.

No one has put together a forum poll yet to figure out what our demographic composition is (might be a fun one to do!) but I suspect that Niburu is right. We are mostly 30+ with houses and garages -- though I would add that some of us might be more accurately described as 30+++.

I'm 62. Doing an 818 project car is going to be my way of easing into retirement. And the release of the first version is likely to coincide very nicely (late 2012). Hopefully, the version released will be the one I want to build. Otherwise, I'll have to wait..............

[kach22i]

That's pretty cool and exotic looking. I wonder if it would fit the template or not?
Based on having overlaid close to a dozen of these cars so far, I'd say it does not fit the template. However it's not a "super cheater" and can be made to fit much in the same manner as I illustrated with Jimmey F's design.

[kach22i]

Again I think the three that one were picked for their practicality as well as their beauty.
Not to open old wounds, but I think "pre-picked" would be the appropriate wordage here because all three were posted in the forum prior to the contest deadline.

In fact none, or maybe just one of the cars receiving an award or honor award pick had not been posted in the forum before. For what ever unknown roll of chance, your odds improved ever so slightly if you posted it in the forum before the deadline. Odd, but true in my opinion, until proven otherwise.

[shinn497]

Yeah I read somewhere that most FF Owners are retired. But I rather like that. This is one of the most well composed, well spoken, and informative forums I visit. And it gives me HUMONGUOUS reassurance that I'll have a suportive community when undertaking a build.

@ Nibiru I think the things you mentioned are what I admire in some of the non picked designs. I wonder do you feel like some of these elements are gimmicky? Like what flyboy sead about the headrest humps.

[VTX]

Based on having overlaid close to a dozen of these cars so far, I'd say it does not fit the template. However it's not a "super cheater" and can be made to fit much in the same manner as I illustrated with Jimmey F's design.

I'm curious, is the template that you're using still the original one posted for the contest?

I seem to recall Dave saying that they moved the gas tank behind the seat to make the driver position lower. I'm wondering if that changes the template a little and will allow for a little lower car.

[Silvertop]

I'm curious, is the template that you're using still the original one posted for the contest?

I seem to recall Dave saying that they moved the gas tank behind the seat to make the driver position lower. I'm wondering if that changes the template a little and will allow for a little lower car.

Moving the gas tank will allow the seat height to be lowered. But I'm guessing that they have no intention of making dramatic changes to the chassis. Keep in mind that there are five 1/4 scale bodies very nearly ready for reveal. Changing the overall height of the car would (I think) require a complete re-do on the modeling. Probably something they don't really want to do.

Of course, my opinion could be clouded by the fact that I personally don't WANT to see the car become significantly lower than it already will be -- It may become too difficult for my aging bones to get in and out..........

[bromikl]

If I recall when the design competition began, the gas tank was still under the seats. That would imply the roll bar was higher in the template than it would need to be now. Most of the cars "not fitting the template" offended it in roll bar height.

I assume that since the concept design competition, slight changes were made to the frame before modeling. This way they can accurately model all potential bodies on a frame that will be very close to production dimensions.

[Niburu]

@ Nibiru I think the things you mentioned are what I admire in some of the non picked designs. I wonder do you feel like some of these elements are gimmicky? Like what flyboy sead about the headrest humps.
the cars I liked designwise for this contest were the ones that were realistic builds with smoth flowing lines and curves
I am not a fan of the staight edge design thats been prevelant for the last decade - at all
I saw alot of design features for the sake of design and no other reason
I have nothing against the headrest humps and the looked good on some of the cars, some looked like an afterthought
Some of the oddball design also grew on me as the contest went on, there was quite a bit more originallity than I expected

[kach22i]

I'm curious, is the template that you're using still the original one posted for the contest?

I seem to recall Dave saying that they moved the gas tank behind the seat to make the driver position lower. I'm wondering if that changes the template a little and will allow for a little lower car.
I am using a modified FFR template. I added a 90 Percentile male (6'-0" tall) I found on-line. He barely fits as you can see, leading me to believe that there never was any room under the seat for a gas tank. Some kind of in-house miscommunication I suspect.

[Mad Dog]

36 new images have been uploaded to the gallery. Here's a some of them. I'll try and get some more posted tomorrow.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4242&d=1316101810

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4225&d=1316101790

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4238&d=1316101802

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4232&d=1316101796

Click here to view the gallery of design submissions. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)

[PhyrraM]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4225&d=1316101790


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4232&d=1316101796



These two are of my liking. LIGHT looking, like the 818 itself. NO heavy rump. No wanna-be exotic styling.

One is a bit plain and the other takes a few too many chances, but I like them both.

[kach22i]

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/ChristianPalladino-Overlay.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/ChrisErickson-Overlay.jpg

Just a few more studies. Trying to figure out what works, or don't works, and why or why not.

[olpro]

Your first overlay in the last post looks close but the guy's WHEELS are about twice a realistic size. I can understand a cheated perspective drawing but a dead side view that is SO far off is just ridiculous.
If I were handling the judging, I would precheck all the side views and TOSS OUT any entry that cheated. They wouldn't even make it to the judge's desk for review. Final selections would be made solely on the (qualified) side views. If this kind of policy was made clear early on, the end results would be usable.
Those of you who compete on the track or course wouldn't stand for cheating - it shouldn't be allowed in this contest either.
As it was, I don't know how they handled this issue so I guess I can't criticize.

[rsmith]

If I were handling the judging, I would precheck all the side views and TOSS OUT any entry that cheated. They wouldn't even make it to the judge's desk for review. Final selections would be made solely on the (qualified) side views. If this kind of policy was made clear early on, the end results would be usable.Thankfully you weren't involved with the judging.


Those of you who compete on the track or course wouldn't stand for cheating - it shouldn't be allowed in this contest either.Since it was clearly specified from the beginning that the contest was quite wide open - even to the point of templates being optional - I would say "cheating" doesn't even begin to apply. And to throw that word out there regarding specific entries is really too much.


As it was, I don't know how they handled this issue so I guess I can't criticize. So what exactly was it you were doing - if not criticizing? I can understand that you're opinionated and clearly have all the answers but it would be helpful if you became a little more informed about the rules of the competition before spouting such negativity. It's clear you don't like the way the contest was organized, run, handled or even the end results. That's fine. Try not to bring everyone else down to your level though.

[olpro]

I don't remember anything about the templates being 'optional'. A lot of entrants treated it that way and the contest management seemed pretty loose on that issue although who knows how the final designs were actually evaluated. For all I know they did eliminate the cheaters. I don't recall any of the money winners being way cheated so probably they did.
There was plenty of discussion on this issue so I'm sure they were smart enough not to be fooled. I wish they would have spelled it out early though, to get the contestants to try harder to make their proposals fit the package, and be more usable.
My criticism extends to some of the entrants' work and not further to the actual judging process. Learn to read. As to bringing everyone "down to my level", that would be considerably higher than yours, apparently.

[GUNS]

Yea I don't really get all these guys upset about the designs not being absolutely perfect to the dimensions. IMO, the design competition was just to basically spark inspiration for this thing, not to be 100% accurate. I don't know, I just don't see it as that big a deal. Maybe for you guys that do this for a living it is, but in the end, who cares?

[olpro]

I guess my standards, and expectations, are higher than yours.
"In the end", Factory Five has to produce a feasible product.

[GUNS]

I guess my standards, and expectations, are higher than yours.
"In the end", Factory Five has to produce a feasible product.

Yea I agree, but that doesn't mean that they can't take a design that isn't exactly up to specs and tweak it to meet their goals.

[rsmith]

I don't remember anything about the templates being 'optional'. A lot of entrants treated it that way and the contest management seemed pretty loose on that issue although who knows how the final designs were actually evaluated. For all I know they did eliminate the cheaters. I don't recall any of the money winners being way cheated so probably they did. Actually if you read the rules it does not say anything about the templates being required. And here are a few quotes from Dave back on March 1st:


We might be able to put some landmark add-ons to the templates (bumper heights, rear deck min etc), but for right now the full-on CAD files are not going to be released, it's just simply too early in the work despite the fact that the guys are building the go-kart right now. Also, the body shapes that guys come up with MAY drive changes to the chassis and we dont want to curtail design work that can be adopted. This is a tough chicken-egg thingy... and


We had wanted to get the mechanics of the site and contest functioning first before doing press releases (probably tomorrow or the next day) on the design contest. One more detail on the chassis, more clear instructions (like submit ANY drawing, you dont have to do three images)...

Templates sound optional to me, even if they did provide useful information. Feel free to disagree though.


There was plenty of discussion on this issue so I'm sure they were smart enough not to be fooled. I wish they would have spelled it out early though, to get the contestants to try harder to make their proposals fit the package, and be more usable.
My criticism extends to some of the entrants' work and not further to the actual judging process. Learn to read. As to bringing everyone "down to my level", that would be considerably higher than yours, apparently. I read and comprehend quite well. I'm not the one who's grumbling and complaining about "cheaters." I think the contestants did a great job from what I've seen and should be congratulated for their efforts. So you go ahead and continue to be negative while the rest of us appreciate the results from a great contest. Maybe tomorrow you'll feel better.

[rsmith]

Yea I don't really get all these guys upset about the designs not being absolutely perfect to the dimensions. IMO, the design competition was just to basically spark inspiration for this thing, not to be 100% accurate. I don't know, I just don't see it as that big a deal. Maybe for you guys that do this for a living it is, but in the end, who cares?
I think you're right and that Dave has made it very clear throughout the contest that inspiration was more important than perfect accuracy. I don't think he cared if the dimensions might be a little (or more) off, especially if the end result rocked.

[rsmith]

I guess my standards, and expectations, are higher than yours.
"In the end", Factory Five has to produce a feasible product.

Your "standards, and expectations" are not what the contest was about. They're also not relevant or applicable. "In the end" it wasn't up to the contestants to produce the "feasible product" and Factory Five seems quite willing to work from the design inspirations to produce the end result they need. See what Dave says below:


BUT what if someone comes up with a rockin cool twin rear duct style body shape. We might want to change the design to use that cool feature/look. I guess the point is that we dont want to constrain creativity. Chassis details (small as opposed to wheelbase, track etc) can be changed where there is a good enough reason. We use CAD and make everything on the screeen first anyway, so sometimes mods are easier than you might think, so the decision to either provide all the details and hurt design freedom was balanced against the value of having final drawings which are the actual, down to the tenth car body... we decided to lean towards more open design paramenters. Hope that explains it.

Plus, the judges we have assembled are from ALL different walks of professional life. Our goal was to pick the most exciting, inspiring, and cool designs... then the hard work is set forth for the engineers to bring that to life...
Maybe I'm just misreading this and Dave really wanted the contestants to limit themselves to production ready concepts and drawings. Nah, Dave just isn't saying that. Perhaps your standards and expectations are just higher than Factory Five's? Perhaps but I'd rather buy their products I think. They don't have the same frustrations and negative energy you keep displaying so openly. So lighten up and try to see the bright side of things for a change. Might even do you good.

[bromikl]

rsmith, thanks for researching that. And you are absolutely correct. There really were very few, if any constraints on the concept completion. Dave encouraged anyone with a pencil and an internet connection to make an entry.

The pros, on the other hand, felt there were rules for acceptable work. While they had a distinct advantage in the contest with well-honed skills, experience and software, they felt the entries that weren't realistic were somehow inferior. But it would be silly to expect professional level work from amateurs. So, kudos to the pros in being able to spot a cheated design, but that's not what the contest was about.

[Imp]

Look what I (they) just found.

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/ford-gt70-pic-2011-09-15?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=ongoing


Not the Frankfurt show: Ford GT70
Blue Oval releases pic of 1970s motorsport rarity. As you can see, it’s quite yellow

http://www.topgear.com/uk/assets/cms/da854b82-fa70-4b02-9c73-a6289b7068e3/Large%20Image.jpg

The story goes like this. Two gentlemen were returning home from the 1970 Monte Carlo Rally. They went by the names of Stuart Turner, Ford competitions director, and Roger Clark, a Ford works rally driver.

These two men of Speedy Things were discussing their failure at the rally, and decided what Ford really needed was a light, simple, mid-engined car with the ability to host a range of engines.

The spawn of this discussion is the cheery little yellow sportscar currently jostling for your attention above. It is the Ford GT70, and that very model is just one of six ever built. Ford drivers Hannu Mikkola and Timo Makinen put forward ideas for the interior, while one of the brains behind the GT40 helped design it.

Sadly, the arrival of the Escort and WRC rule changes made the GT70 redundant. It was put into a big box in 1973 and was only recently unpacked, undergoing a full restoration in 2002, complete with a 2.0-litre BDA engine and Hewland gearbox.

The reason for the pic? Ford is celebrating 100 years in Britain and is sifting through its picture archive. It's also nothing to do with the Frankfurt motor show. Click the link below for a bigger image.

Imagine if this was out last year when FFR was developing the idea for the 818... and it's a Ford. I'd just say "Make it look like that".

--KC

[Oppenheimer]

I'd just say, 'make it look better than that'. That looks great for 1970, but I'd want something a little...more for the 818.

I'm just glad you appear to have successfully changed the topic at hand.

[PhyrraM]

That's very cool. Like a second, much better, attempt at the mid engined Mustang concept from the 60s. I see alot of Lotus in the front, someone Ford was working well with at the time. I wonder what the frame looks like? wouldn't suprise me to see a Lotus inspired backbone under it.

I think it's cars like that Ford, the Dino, Stratos, etc. that Scott Bradfords design pays homage too, but also makes them modern again.

[Mad Dog]

57 new images uploaded today. Really starting to make a dent in getting all of the submissions posted. The gallery now has 202 images in it. Here's some of the new uploads.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4308&d=1316187853

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4310&d=1316187855

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4302&d=1316187847

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4298&d=1316187843

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4286&d=1316187830

Click here to view all of the Project 818 Design Contest entries (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)

[VTX]

These two are of my liking. LIGHT looking, like the 818 itself. NO heavy rump. No wanna-be exotic styling.

One is a bit plain and the other takes a few too many chances, but I like them both.

I agree. These are both nice designs.

[Silvertop]

I think it's cars like that Ford, the Dino, Stratos, etc. that Scott Bradfords design pays homage too, but also makes them modern again.

And the Porsche 904 and several others as well. That's probably what made the Scotty B design so appealing. I'm still a little surprised that one didn't make the Judges top 15 list......

[kach22i]

I guess my standards, and expectations, are higher than yours.
"In the end", Factory Five has to produce a feasible product.
I'm with olpro on this one. I think people read far too much into comments made and tossed out the rules. They did so at their own risk, which is fine. However it's kind of frustrating for me to see an interesting design, only to find out that only midgets could drive it.

Think of it this way, I'm clothes shopping and all the pair of pants are mis-marked or not marked at all, and all tossed into a big bin in the middle of the store. There are no mirrors around, no sales people to assist, and no dressing rooms to try the cloths on. This is how the results of the contest are to me. Some interesting clothes in the bin, but at some point I'll just decide to shop elsewhere and save myself the headache.

The template was difficult but not impossible to follow. I just can't imagine what was going through someone's head submitting something which was completely impractical. I can see being off here and there on purpose with things like a different radiator location in mind. Some of the alterations just boggle my mind. And I say this in awe of the hand drawing and computer illustration skills involved. The disconnect just blows my mind. Why waste your own time like that? Is that the the sort of thing you really want in your portfolio? A non-functional design?

I'm old and grumpy, so what.

[D2W]

I'm with olpro on this one. I think people read far too much into comments made and tossed out the rules. They did so at their own risk, which is fine. However it's kind of frustrating for me to see an interesting design, only to find out that only midgets could drive it.

Think of it this way, I'm clothes shopping and all the pair of pants are mis-marked or not marked at all, and all tossed into a big bin in the middle of the store. There are no mirrors around, no sales people to assist, and no dressing rooms to try the cloths on. This is how the results of the contest are to me. Some interesting clothes in the bin, but at some point I'll just decide to shop elsewhere and save myself the headache.

The template was difficult but not impossible to follow. I just can't imagine what was going through someone's head submitting something which was completely impractical. I can see being off here and there on purpose with things like a different radiator location in mind. Some of the alterations just boggle my mind. And I say this in awe of the hand drawing and computer illustration skills involved. The disconnect just blows my mind. Why waste your own time like that? Is that the the sort of thing you really want in your portfolio? A non-functional design?

I'm old and grumpy, so what.

I've got to agree also. I think it was FFR's fault for leaving the contest so wide open, because a design that is too low, with impossibly big tires and other "cheats may look incredible on paper, but will never look as good when actually built with reality in mind. If FFR would have said this is the wheelbase/tire size/minimum passenger compartment size from the beginning they may have gotten more designs that were actually buildable. I don't understand the non-functional disconnect either, maybe the difference between an artist's mind, and an engineer's mind.

[PhyrraM]

The template was only provided at the request of forum posters here and at GRM. It was likely cobbled together at the last second, and begrudgingly, by Jim at Dave's request. It was also released well after the contest was announced. It was very clear from Dave that the template was not required and was completely optional.

Dave was very clear to not constrict yourself in the design. It was the Forums (myself included) that longed for, and lobbied for, something more realistic and buildable.

We can quibble about the what-should-haves and such all we want, but the goal that Dave had in mind was very clear and never in question.

[olpro]

PhyrraM, I don’t want to belabor this side issue but I don’t think that is accurate. When I joined this group on 3-14-2011, the templates were a solid part of the contest description. See the cached page at:
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/infotext.html >>>Click here to enter the design competition.
You will notice the templates and their importance mentioned several times on this lengthy page. There is no mention as to how much weight they would carry in the judging but there is nothing that would indicate they were ‘optional’.
It was ONLY on this particular little newsgroup about the 818, with its multitude of threads, that Dave’s qualifying comments were to be found. Anybody entering the contest but not joining this complex discussion group would automatically assume the templates were important.
Dave and FFR are very good at many things but this is the first such contest they have held. I think they did pretty well but one thing they didn’t get right is the waffling and confusion about the templates. There may have been statements (but only on this newsgroup) downplaying their importance but none of that ever made it to the rules and entry pages, where interested participants would go to get their information, even shortly before the deadline. Another problem is the fact that the templates were not well done at all and invited creative “interpretation”.

Kach22i, I really like your clothing analogy.

[Oppenheimer]

I am under the impression the design contest was intended to be more of a 'concept car' design competition than a 'design the next FFR kit' competition. I think anyone would agree that they did not do a good enough job at making the intentions clear.

For the clothing analogy, it was a runway model competition. Normal people don't wear those clothes, and they are not very manufacturable, but they have a significant influence on the coming seasons fashions, on the clothes people do make and buy. The extravagent runway also gets a lot more attention than the new wearable fall fashions arriving at Macy's.

Oldpro you are right that someone that didn't pour through the whole history of the board and went just on what was posted about the contest could easily have been misled and think they had to conform to something very buildable, that strictly meet the template, etc. Then be disgruntled when they see some of the winners and lauded designs seem 'cheated'.

You are also correct that this is FFR's first attempt at such a contest. If the Mk I to Mk IV evolution is any indication, they will continually improve if they do something like this again.

[PhyrraM]

True, if you were going just off what was presented on the contest page you would miss the history and developement of the templates and might assume that they were to be adhered to.

However, the "cheated" talk started here in these forums and well before the end of the contest. So most of use here, in these forums, discussing this now, should be well versed in how emphatically Dave said numerious times that he was after design ideas and every submission was to be considered. Dave even restated that exact point when the first few weekly winners were catching heat for not being "buildable".

So, to have a fresh forum member come in here - and wonder why some of the winners are what they are - is understandable. To have a few long standing forum members that are still stuck on this.......?? confused

[olpro]

That Ford GT 70 reminds me of the Monza GT, one of the most elegant designs ever done at GM. It is one of my favorites and to think that this thing was done so long ago...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvair_Monza_GT

[thebeerbaron]

To have a few long standing forum members that are still stuck on this.......?? confused

Gotta have something to talk about.

Now how about that roof? (I kid, I kid)

[Mad Dog]

Posted some new images into the gallery. Here are a few of them:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4461&d=1316532184

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4454&d=1316532179

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4457&d=1316532181

Click here to view all of the Project 818 Design Contest entries (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)

[kach22i]

Some more pants that don't quite fit, but are very interesting indeed.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-EzekielWheeler.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-DetlevMagerer3.jpg
The David Story design has potential.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-DavidStory.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-DavidNealII.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-DavidHankala-Template.jpg
I really like Colin Bonathan's design below.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-colinbonathan2.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-ErnestoFreitas3.jpg

[kach22i]

On the topic of the Ford GT-70, it's design has aged well, but would have to be updated somehow.

This Russian site is not real accurate, but close enough for this overlay study.

Source:
http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/cars/ford/38114/view/ford_gt70/

Overlay
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-ford_gt70-38114.jpg

It fits pretty well.

There are 3 or 4 versions of the GT-70 floating around the Internet, this is one of them.

Rotated from original image, I had issues trying an overlay but should fit pretty well.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-Ford_GT_70_1971.jpg

[kach22i]

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/EdwardShih1.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-EdwardShih1.jpg

If anyone who entered the contest with a non-compliant design wants try and to answer the question I have for Edward (and all the others), please do so.

So far I think I've only heard from people who did not submit. If you did not submit, you can contact me via a PM or e-mail.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but don't feel I have a definitive answer from actual participants.

[mekeys]

Kach22i you have one hell of a photobucket album.I like no.41 out of the 788,all tho it needs to have an overlay done too..It's yellow.

Mel Keys

[kach22i]

Kach22i you have one hell of a photobucket album.I like no.41 out of the 788,all tho it needs to have an overlay done too..

Mel Keys
Do you mean the yellow car? I did not draw that, must have liked it for some reason. If you click or right click, the original information should be there.

A-Lotus_concept_by_Morfiuss.jpg

If you mean the black Ferrari in the rain, then yes I think you or someone else in the forum already asked why a more cab-forward (and lower) template was not being offered. I remember the image well, a wire diagram of some sort.

Edit Note: changed cad to cab, as in cab-forward.

[Mad Dog]

More entries have been posted in the gallery. Will try and get even more posted this afternoon. Here's some of the new designs:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4606&d=1317050522

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4601&d=1317050518

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4592&d=1317050510

Click here to go to the gallery. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)

[Mad Dog]

Some more submissions have been posted in the gallery. Here's a sample:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4665&d=1317155672

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4682&d=1317155691

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4656&d=1317155664

Click here to go to the gallery. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)

[David Hodgkins]

The template was only provided at the request of forum posters here and at GRM. It was likely cobbled together at the last second, and begrudgingly, by Jim at Dave's request. It was also released well after the contest was announced. It was very clear from Dave that the template was not required and was completely optional.

Dave was very clear to not constrict yourself in the design. It was the Forums (myself included) that longed for, and lobbied for, something more realistic and buildable.

We can quibble about the what-should-haves and such all we want, but the goal that Dave had in mind was very clear and never in question.

This is accurate. The template showing a driver, rollbar and engine wasn't part of the original contest rules and was created by request. The original templates only showed wheels (wheelbase and track). Anyone who says otherwise unfortunately is mistaken.

HTH,

[olpro]

From my comments on post #66, which I still stand by:
>> When I joined this group on 3-14-2011, the templates were a solid part of the contest description. See the cached page at:
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/.../infotext.html >>>Click here to enter the design competition.
You will notice the templates and their importance mentioned several times on this lengthy page. There is no mention as to how much weight they would carry in the judging but there is nothing that would indicate they were ‘optional’.
It was ONLY on this particular little newsgroup about the 818, with its multitude of threads, that Dave’s qualifying comments were to be found. Anybody entering the contest but not joining this complex discussion group would automatically assume the templates were important.<<<
>>> There may have been statements (but only on this newsgroup) downplaying their importance but none of that ever made it to the rules and entry pages, where interested participants would go to get their information, even shortly before the deadline.<<
In other words, to the VAST majority of people entering this competition, the templates - sketchy as they are - were part of the deal.

[kach22i]

From my comments on post #66, which I still stand by:
>> When I joined this group on 3-14-2011, the templates were a solid part of the contest description. See the cached page at:
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/.../infotext.html >>>Click here to enter the design competition.

Five days before you joined olpro I looked at the contest rules and templates, even asked questions and got answers back. Once again I have to agree with you, did we miss the kool-aid party? Here is what I posted in another forum on 03/09/11.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/595839-like-918-how-about-818-a.html

They answered all of my questions, and it's only been a couple of hours.

1. Yes you can include additional views (front and rear) on extra template sheets.

2. If you have a clay model or fiberglass model you may include photos of it.

3. Be sure to put your contact information on every sheet.

They seem to be very flexible, in the FAQ section they said you could even exclude views (one gesture sketch could win?).

Link:
Factory Five Sportscar Design Contest - Frequently Asked Questions: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine (http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/f5faq/)

At this point my current theory is; give them an inch and they will take a mile.

However this theory does not address international aspect, maybe it's; give them a centimeter and they will take a kilometer?

I have a second theory about this being a generational thing, a generation thing spanning borders with no concept of limits, reality and which places no value on compliance. However, this would be unfair to all those younger people who took the effort to comply (like Xabier Albizu) and provided an inhabitable/occupiable vehicle.

I know that for myself as a registered architect, one trained in code and ordinance compliance it is difficult for me to throw away experience and the responsibility I have carried for over 30 years in the profession. One thing I'll tell you all, the test for architects has nothing to do with design creativity or aesthetics. The tests have to do with problem solving and compliance, and weighted towards following the rules, if it does not comply, it will not even be considered. That's my world, don't even consider architecture if you cannot follow some rules, lots of rules.

Design is about making decisions, I see that in this contest far too many people made poor decisions in my opinion. I can still admire the talent and creativity, but it saddens me in some fundamental way.

[thebeerbaron]

It's pointless to beat a dead horse, unless that horse is filled with whoopie cushions. If that's the case, have at it!

Glad to see you back olpro!

What I'm seeing in these galleries are a few interesting, distinctive ideas that maybe weren't as fully baked as the winners yet which had a lot more style and punch. Can't wait to see the four 1/4 scale models.

[rsmith]

From my comments on post #66, which I still stand by:
>> When I joined this group on 3-14-2011, the templates were a solid part of the contest description. See the cached page at:
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/.../infotext.html >>>Click here to enter the design competition.
You will notice the templates and their importance mentioned several times on this lengthy page. There is no mention as to how much weight they would carry in the judging but there is nothing that would indicate they were ‘optional’. There is also nothing to indicate which templates were being referred to here. As Dave Hodgkins points out, "The template showing a driver, rollbar and engine wasn't part of the original contest rules and was created by request. The original templates only showed wheels (wheelbase and track). Anyone who says otherwise unfortunately is mistaken."


In other words, to the VAST majority of people entering this competition, the templates - sketchy as they are - were part of the deal. Which templates were those again? Still you have a point that probably the vast majority of people who entered did eventually become familiar with the rollbar/engine template during the course of the competition. Clearly there is no way anyone is going to convince you that the actual rules (which are listed on the page you cited as Rules 1 through 11) did not require entries to slavishly follow that one particular template so perhaps we should just let this aspect of the thread die. Let's enjoy the submissions instead as Mad Dog posts them. Thanks Mad Dog!

[bromikl]

I think it's great that some people designed with professional eyes; and I think those that did had a much better chance of winning prizes. But those skills were not required for entry into the competition. Some of the concepts look great when "cheated," and I have no doubt they would flop as a real car. But it's up to the ones developing the 818 to pick those out: the pros at FFR.

[Niburu]

they could pick the top 100 designs and have them made into matchbox cars, whole new market segment for FFR

additionally I'd like to see Xabier sign a few body shells of the actual 818
maybe I'll send him a tshirt to sign

[Silvertop]

...............maybe I'll send him a tshirt to sign

Now THERE'S a neat idea.

[kach22i]

I think it's great that some people designed with professional eyes; and I think those that did had a much better chance of winning prizes. But those skills were not required for entry into the competition. Some of the concepts look great when "cheated," and I have no doubt they would flop as a real car. But it's up to the ones developing the 818 to pick those out: the pros at FFR.
RE: winning prizes...........
I proved earlier with template overlays that about half of the winning entries (judge's choice etc...) were "cheated", the other half were only slightly cheated, and nearly all had been posted in the forum prior to the end of the contest. X's was not cheated at all, although a little more head room and higher windshield would have been nice from a roll-over perspective.

I do like the Hot Wheels/Matchbox idea, somebody is thinking fun here (Niburu), and I like that.

thebeerbarron is right, it's a dead horse, but like anyone else I like to get the last word in. Therefore I'll clarify that to the best of my memory (which is not perfect) the templates I first saw on 03/09/11 included the driver and transaxle.

EDIT:
A picture for fun.................

Classic Car Photo Gallery: 1973 Maserati Bora: Engine 2 View
1973 Maserati Bora: Hatch View (http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/photogallery5/1973-maserati-bora-hatch.cfm)
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/photogallery5/1973-maserati-bora/1973-maserati-bora-hatch.jpg

[xabier]

Niburu you really made me laugh with your comment! hahaha! It makes me feel really happy and proud to see people likes what I did and that you feel so excited about it, I am very excited too with this project!

[Silvertop]

Niburu you really made me laugh with your comment! hahaha! ..............

Actually, I think he was serious. I was!

[xabier]

Well, in that case, I´m really glad to hear that Silvertop, if I could do something, you know I would love to help if possible!
Thank you very much!

[Mad Dog]

Got some more submissions posted. Had more but having some trouble getting them posted so working on that right now. Should have them posted tomorrow. In the mean time, here's a few of the new additions and click here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160) to view all of them.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4770&d=1317322424

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4775&d=1317322429

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4767&d=1317322422

[16g-95gsx]

Some of these look great, but to me they lose the entire concept behind the body shape that a mid engined car has. They all look like FR cars.

[kach22i]

J Powell's submission................nice, would love to see a side view of that.

Ivan Ma's submission - View 2...........like it, gotta template it.

Ian Rothwell's submission............clean, simple, I'll template it too.

Hal Mintun's submission - View 2...............the front 3/4 view line drawing has some potential, not the same design as other's with his name.

Goran Bundaleski's submission.................I like his many many many submissions, and no need to template his stuff either. Good job bro.

Jim O'Day's submission................nice hand drawings, I think he should have spent a little more time on the side view though.

Jeremy Rice's submission.................I'm happy to see that he turned it in, I remember it from the forum.

Jeff Teague's submission.................I'd love to see Jeff re-scale this to fit people better, and not limit himself to the 8-foot wheel base (see RUF CTR3). http://www.ruf-automobile.de/en/RUF-CTR-3.29fe7.php

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-IvanMa2.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Overlay-IanRothwell.jpg

[Niburu]

Actually, I think he was serious. I was!
I was quite serious on all accounts.
And on further thought FFR should do a limited run of the GTM and 818 in those collectable 1/24 scale size.
Maisto is the big manufacturer for those, would love to swing by Costco or BJ's around Christmas time 2012 and pick up a few.

[Silvertop]

I was quite serious on all accounts.
And on further thought FFR should do a limited run of the GTM and 818 in those collectable 1/24 scale size.
Maisto is the big manufacturer for those, would love to swing by Costco or BJ's around Christmas time 2012 and pick up a few.

I have a fairly sizable collection of 1/24 scale cars (way cheaper than collecting the real things)-- mostly Franklin Mint, and mostly sports cars and sports sedans from the 50's, 60's & 70's -- and I'd be buying 1/24 scale FFR cars in a heartbeat if they were available............

[Oppenheimer]

I was quite serious on all accounts.
And on further thought FFR should do a limited run of the GTM and 818 in those collectable 1/24 scale size.
Maisto is the big manufacturer for those, would love to swing by Costco or BJ's around Christmas time 2012 and pick up a few.

Funny, last time I was in BJ's and saw the scale model cars I was thinking how cool it would be if we cuold get some FFR models.

[Drew2.0]

just started this sketch, its just a ruff idea... I wasn't impressed with the design winners so I figured if I'm gonna talk smack I might as well have a concept... please let me know what you guys think!

[Colvindesign]

As to the comments about "cheating"; that is the reality of automotive design. Look at publicly released teaser sketches of prototype or production models, and they are almost always exaggerated with larger than realistic wheels and smaller greenhouse than would be acceptable by any motorist who would drive it.

example: http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/1184/Pontiac-Solstice-Roadster-Concept.html

To those who are taking offense or upset by it, that's how this field actually works. Sometimes the parameters are established, then the designers comes back and negotiates with the engineers to make compromises after they figure out the car "looks" rear end heavy, top heavy or narrow. Sort of how the gas tank location changed at some point in the contest. However in the industry a design team may work daily on the same project for months. This was a mix of designers working on their own with their own specific feedback in a shorter time frame. For what was accomplished, this contest was a success. Beating the dead horse about "cheaters" or those who chose to exaggerate the characteristics of their designs will not change how things are done.

I do have a suggestion for future contests, allow more time and encourage teams to develop. Designs often come out better when done as a collaboration of efforts.

[kach22i]

I went to what I think is your Facebook page Colvindesign, you have a lot of talent, nice work. However, we have already had an expert explain the proper and professional process. The gas tank issue is just another example of the inexperience of the person who generated the template (a 95 percentile American Male figure would never work with anything more than a seat under it), I once called it an "in office miscommunication" to be kind.

Do you have a website Colvindesign? There seems to be a NYC architect using the same name which makes finding your work that much more difficult.

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/pic/1184/Pontiac-Solstice-Roadster-Concept_6.html
4864
© 2011 General Motors

I can see Colvindesign's point when I see the image above. I'm pretty sure this sort of concept is not just thrown over the wall to the engineering department to make work. Not after they went through the effort of setting up a template with design parameters.

[Colvindesign]

I'm not a pro. However being someone who has read numerous books by people currently in the industry, and knowing what internal sketches look like, a pro from 30 years ago VS a pro from today, are two entirely different things. No offense to anyone in particular, it's just how things actually are these days. The styles used in the past were more focused on the body, with small wheels (which were more realistic), tall greenhouses and thin looking bodies. Today, the pros who work in the industry today, use two methods, underlays of current vehicles which may be up for redesign or a complete free hand sketch with no boundaries. The above sketch was a teaser from general motors and was used during the design development phase of the Solstice as an "Approved" design. Granted it does not fit the Solstice design almost at all technically, you can still tell unmistakably that it is in fact a Solstice. This is where the disconnect is here on the Forum. While designers use these type of sketches to fine tune their "ideas" or design language, the actual process takes weeks or sometimes months to morph from a stack of ideas (from numerous designers) into more ideation sketches and eventually into several realistically proportioned designs. So in essence anyone who asks for a realistic production ready design in a matter of weeks from amateur designers (including myself) are expecting too much. Also, many of the entrants are full time students or work full time and do not have the time to dedicate to this 100%. The design for the next Mustang began before the 2010 redesign was released. It's not done yet.

I think everyone harping on the "it doesn't fit the template" theme should sit back and enjoy the fact that Dave Smith and company has given the public the opportunity to influence and perhaps completely design the next product from factory Five. I've enjoyed the contest and appreciate my work being shared. I am defensive about criticism that is based on unfounded presumptions that a design proposal needs to be 100% production ready. Kachi, architecture is a completely different animal. However, even the most interesting and inspiring architectural "designs" challenge reality;
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/35/97435-050-FB919E6E.jpg

[David Hodgkins]

Great post.

:)

[kach22i]

time...........

100% production ready..........

I've enjoyed the contest..............
I guess time is relative, some people submitted 17 designs, others could not finish one up. It's like that at school, people fail all the time. It's like that at work, they get themselves fired.

I don't think the templates mandated a 100% production ready car, but their were a set of rules.

I enjoyed the contest too.

[Colvindesign]

I guess time is relative, some people submitted 17 designs, others could not finish one up. It's like that at school, people fail all the time. It's like that at work, they get themselves fired.

Well, I've never been fired. I found time to do a few sketches, but still managed to work more than 40 hours a week, take care of my disabled wife and my 5 year old. I guess that means I am a failure because I didn't churn out 30 sketches worth submitting? It was a contest where payment was only guaranteed to the winner. Had I been commissioned and paid to design a car for FFR, I would have devoted more than 50 hours to it a week, and I would have been able to offer up far more than 30 different design ideas had that been the case. But I had to deal with reality and had to find time to do this.


I don't think the templates mandated a 100% production ready car, but their were a set of rules.

Which is why the argument is completely moot. There were flaws with the original template. Had the designers stuck entirely to the template to a "T", then everyone would have had the driver sitting on top of the gas tank, and how many people in the real world would not buy the car for that very reason? I know I wouldn't. Some people (like myself) saw a problem with the template, and chose to change it by moving the gas tank before FFR did. I also challenged the idea that the transmission needed to be so long because the rear drive portion could be removed without affecting the performance of the FWD portion that would drive the wheels on the 818, and would actually lighten the vehicle with it's removal. Sometimes it's better to work WITH the designer rather than keeping the two completely separated. If engineers never had feedback from designers, no one would want to be a designer. Had the designers not consistently pushed back on the gas tank location, it would not have changed. I think the change was good. While yes 30 inch wheels and a three inch tall windshield are unrealistic and would never reach production, an inch off the rear or an inch there can make or break a design.


I enjoyed the contest too.

Good, I'm glad to hear it. But take a step back and understand these are two very different disciplines. You are applying Architectural expectations to automotive design. Which is not a bad thing because it gives you a unique perspective, however that does not make others wrong because they do not share your view.

[Colvindesign]

Going through the design submissions gallery, I do not see several of my submissions. The initial entry I sent in and received positive feedback on was not posted. Altogether I sent in nearly 20 different views of 2 different designs. I didn't expect to see the ones that were very similar but I thought I would see the ones that were unique and showed different variations.

Oh well. :o

[thebeerbaron]

Going through the design submissions gallery, I do not see several of my submissions. The initial entry I sent in and received positive feedback on was not posted. Altogether I sent in nearly 20 different views of 2 different designs. I didn't expect to see the ones that were very similar but I thought I would see the ones that were unique and showed different variations.

Oh well. :o

My entry isn't up yet. It's a lot of work for Mad Dog to get these things up, and he's got a lot of other work to do besides. I've tried to help, but without access to the source materials I had trouble trying to automate the process. We're just going to have to be patient as the rest trickle in...

[olpro]

>>>> Good, I'm glad to hear it. But take a step back and understand these are two very different disciplines. You are applying Architectural expectations to automotive design. Which is not a bad thing because it gives you a unique perspective, however that does not make others wrong because they do not share your view.
I would say that kach22i’s ideas and standards are far closer to the actual automotive studio experiences and criteria I have experienced, as recently as 2006 when I retired.
You can read all you want about something but that is not the same as actually being there.

I am sure that Mad Dog is doing all he can with all the diverse file sizes, etc. - it will eventually get done. I am enjoying seeing them as they are posted.

[PhyrraM]

...I am sure that Mad Dog is doing all he can with all the diverse file sizes, etc. - it will eventually get done. I am enjoying seeing them as they are posted.

I agree. Taking the time to look at more than 50 or so at a time would consume my day if they were released any faster.

[kach22i]

There were flaws with the original template. Had the designers stuck entirely to the template to a "T", then everyone would have had the driver sitting on top of the gas tank, and how many people in the real world would not buy the car for that very reason? I know I wouldn't. Some people (like myself) saw a problem with the template, and chose to change it by moving the gas tank before FFR did. I also challenged the idea that the transmission needed to be so long because the rear drive portion could be removed without affecting the performance of the FWD portion that would drive the wheels on the 818, and would actually lighten the vehicle with it's removal. Sometimes it's better to work WITH the designer rather than keeping the two completely separated.
1. Tranny
I'm glad you clarified your thoughts and position on the transmission. I followed the template in good faith, however looking at the "go-cart" you can see that rear overhand allowance was generous, even without the modification you speak of. In fact, looking at the full sized body they are working on, the rear overhang appears to be much less than they asked us to provide.

2. Gas Tank and human figure
FFR must have used a 30% Female figure or something other than a 95 Percentile American Male mannequin figure to obtain the template placing. There was in fact never room for a gas tank under the seat, and no room for seat track adjustment rails either. This faulty template confuses people to this day, despite me posting a corrected template dozens of times. Even in the corrected template you can see that the eye level will have to be raised (and arse level). This has been proven beyond reasonable doubt with the David H. (aka the wookie) 4" underside of seat photos.

My faith in FFR's ability to deal with basic ergonomics has been a wait and see thing. It's always right the second time around as they say.

Given time I'm sure they can make it right, but time and money are always a problem for any venture, right?

[Mad Dog]

Hi guys,

I have about 25 or so more photos to post, but keep getting an error message every time I upload them. However, it doesn't tell me what is wrong exactly...same file type and size as all the other photos posted. So, trying to figure that out.

I appreciate any one that has offered to help. Going through and editing is going well and there are close to 300 images posted right now. Going in alphabetical order at this point as an easy way to remember where I left off. Will try to get some more posted today or tomorrow. If you're anxious to see your design posted or if I missed one that one perspective you really like, please PM me.

[David Hodgkins]

Dave, email sent...

:)

[Mad Dog]

Going through the design submissions gallery, I do not see several of my submissions. The initial entry I sent in and received positive feedback on was not posted. Altogether I sent in nearly 20 different views of 2 different designs. I didn't expect to see the ones that were very similar but I thought I would see the ones that were unique and showed different variations.

Oh well. :o

Just got more of your entries posted. Sorry for only getting a few up earlier. Was trying to get as many people's entries posted as quickly as possible. Hoping to get more posted this afternoon.

[kach22i]

Cool, some more nice stuff in there. Did some overlays to see what was really going on with some of my favorites.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-BrianColvin19.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-BrianColvin15.jpg

I would actually fit in this car at 5'-4.5" tall, so would most women.

[VTX]

Cool, some more nice stuff in there. Did some overlays to see what was really going on with some of my favorites.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-BrianColvin19.jpg




I like that one too.

[Drew2.0]

yea I like that!
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/
the lines are nice...

[Drew2.0]

http://www.tumblr.com/photo/1280/11055699336/1/tumblr_lsl53bRZLP1r2i8u5

I hope this links works... I cant seam to be able to post up pics... This is my ruff ruff draft... your opinions are welcomed!

[kach22i]

I hope this links works... I cant seam to be able to post up pics... This is my ruff ruff draft... your opinions are welcomed!
Do you have a view with a template overlay?

Please don't break my heart, it's beautiful. More masculine than pretty though.

[Justen]

http://www.tumblr.com/photo/1280/11055699336/1/tumblr_lsl53bRZLP1r2i8u5

I hope this links works... I cant seam to be able to post up pics... This is my ruff ruff draft... your opinions are welcomed!

Very lambo-ish. i like the hard lines and forward cab

[crackedcornish]

kach22i, just out of curiosity, have you put your overlay on any pics of the actual chassis yet??

[kach22i]

I did my best to give this design the template treatment and a full windshield, not bad but a pretty big loss of character in the process.

Drew2.0, if you have a street version please post it, I'm sure that I did not do your design justice.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-drew.jpg

[kach22i]

kach22i, just out of curiosity, have you put your overlay on any pics of the actual chassis yet??
I'm no ergonomic's engineer but that sounds like a good idea.

You will have to adjust for perspective (see red cross-hair NTS) and follow the white dashed lines. In general it fits, however as pointed out before the rear overhang is about 5 inches too generous (just a guess, not based on an actual measurement). Also the seat height needs to be raised to get adjustable slide rails in there. Track versions may bolt a seat right to the floor or floor structure.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-818frame-1.jpg

[crackedcornish]

I'm no ergonomic's engineer but that sounds like a good idea.

You will have to adjust for perspective (see red cross-hair NTS) and follow the white dashed lines. In general it fits, however as pointed out before the rear overhang is about 5 inches too generous (just a guess, not based on an actual measurement). Also the seat height needs to be raised to get adjustable slide rails in there. Track versions may bolt a seat right to the floor or floor structure.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-818frame-1.jpg

thanks, the template looks closer in the drivetrain department than I thought it would. I thought the engine/transmission were way too high in the template, but now I see it's off a couple inches (at least without the weight of the body/interior on the suspension) at most.

[D2W]

all this image shows is the evidence that the template is a rough approximation of the preliminary components (apart from wrong perspective lines - look at the wheels on the photo). nothing else. what`s the point in putting that generic dummy + sideview template into all of those submissions? what does it show? would it be production ready by changing a few inches? ok, actually there is two basic options in ergonomics:
1. offering a specific size for every user (like it is done in clothing, helmets...)
2. offering possibilities to adjust the ergonomics to match the user (like it is done in car seats, adjustable steering wheels...)
therfor you have the same options here. putting one silly puppet into one position only will prove nothing and lead nowhere.
and i`m not getting into details like what happens when the car flips over. do you really want to fasten the seatbelts like in an f1? so that you wont be able to reach the glovebox and hardly be able to breathe? what happens to all the width issues for the driver? why haven´t i seen any corrections/"overlays" in topview? this is much more of a problem in real life and actually ffr provided a topview template, too. you might know the uhlenhaut coupe that was hardly accessible due to the position of the seats and camshaft tunnel and doors and dashbord and and and? nevertheless it was awesome and among the greatest cars ever built.
i think it`s a big mistake to design cars by looking at the "Sunyside" sideview only. as if they were planets.
in real life you almost never see any object from 100% isometric view.
anyway, apart from all of that: how come you that you`re able to keep finding nice submissions and do not wonder that they should not exist/be submitted/accepted since they apparently do not match the/your rules?

I think the reason Kach22i has done the template is to get a quick idea of whether or not a design is actually feasible. If you go back a few posts you will see a great example of this. A really cool design was posted, but when the template was over-layed you could see that there was no way the original design would work. Kach22i made a few "reality" changes and the design no longer look that good. Yes you are right that all dimensions need to be taken into account, but Kach22i's overlays give a quick way to see how close a design already is.

[Drew2.0]

Kach my comp rig is falling apart... my all in one printer quit the other day imagine that ishh... so no scanning or printing for the time being... The street version is pretty straight forward its like a targa top that snaps right in place flowing from back to front... Also I think if you scale the template down and back a bit and I slightly move the front wheel arch back it might work with my design (she's rocking dubs might have to fit some 18s on her ;) ) , I couldn't use a template due to my "limitations".

[Mad Dog]

New designs have been added to the gallery! Figured out an issue on why a bunch weren't uploading (I think) and will get more posted tomorrow or Friday. Here's some of the new designs and click here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160) to see all of them.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4948&d=1317828965

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4921&d=1317751886

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4930&d=1317828947

[crackedcornish]

all this image shows is the evidence that the template is a rough approximation of the preliminary components (apart from wrong perspective lines - look at the wheels on the photo). nothing else. what`s the point in putting that generic dummy + sideview template into all of those submissions? what does it show? would it be production ready by changing a few inches? ok, actually there is two basic options in ergonomics:
1. offering a specific size for every user (like it is done in clothing, helmets...)
2. offering possibilities to adjust the ergonomics to match the user (like it is done in car seats, adjustable steering wheels...)
therfor you have the same options here. putting one silly puppet into one position only will prove nothing and lead nowhere.
and i`m not getting into details like what happens when the car flips over. do you really want to fasten the seatbelts like in an f1? so that you wont be able to reach the glovebox and hardly be able to breathe? what happens to all the width issues for the driver? why haven´t i seen any corrections/"overlays" in topview? this is much more of a problem in real life and actually ffr provided a topview template, too. you might know the uhlenhaut coupe that was hardly accessible due to the position of the seats and camshaft tunnel and doors and dashbord and and and? nevertheless it was awesome and among the greatest cars ever built.
i think it`s a big mistake to design cars by looking at the "Sunyside" sideview only. as if they were planets.
in real life you almost never see any object from 100% isometric view.
anyway, apart from all of that: how come you that you`re able to keep finding nice submissions and do not wonder that they should not exist/be submitted/accepted since they apparently do not match the/your rules?


what the...? All I said is that the drivetrain in the template is closer to the actual running chassis than I thought it was by several inches.

[crackedcornish]

i`m sorry. the reply originally referred to kach22i`s post.

it's OK, I just thought I missed something. thanks for the clarification

[David Hodgkins]

Guys, this thread is getting out of line. Please tone it down. I've deleted the last two posts.

Perhaps now would be a good time to review this post:

Community, and the 818 forum. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3543-PLEASE-READ-Community-and-the-818-forum&p=33581#post33581)

Thanks,

:)

[thebeerbaron]

Guys, this thread is getting out of line. Please tone it down. I've deleted the last two posts.

C'mon Chewy, at least leave them up for long enough that us regulars can see the action! You're so fast with these edits, I never get to read the really juicy bits! ;)

[kach22i]

my all in one printer quit the other day
I bought one of these 11x17 scanner/printers last year, a great deal.
http://www.brother-usa.com/mfc/modeldetail.aspx?productid=mfc6490cw

[David Hodgkins]

After that last post I decided to clean up this thread some more, so if your post is gone, you know why.

Let's try to keep this thread on track please...

:)

[kach22i]

After that last post I decided to clean up this thread some more, so if your post is gone, you know why.

Let's try to keep this thread on track please...

:)
Thank you David, I was just about to send you a PM about this situation.

.................................................. ..................

Anyone ever do this sort of contour grid over a surface to help explore and show curved surfaces?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160&attachmentid=4939

I still do this sort of thing once in a while. Started as a kid drawing aircraft, showing panels, rivets and things.

I think now-a-days it's thought of as a computer grid sort of thing, but for me it's much more than that.

[kach22i]

checked it out thing looks great, I like size... how is quality of prints vs a lets say epson? I had a hp, was a wireless version...
Brother - MFC-6490CW Professional Series

I bought the All-In-One as a scanner, when I want good hard copies and lots of them, I go to Kinkos.

My wife's HP (expensive ink) blows away the Brother (cheap after-market ink available) quality wise but she cannot do 11x17.

The scanner tends to bleach things out a little, Kinkos does better scans for only $1.00 these days.

The set-up is quirky, I had to call for assistance, but tech support was very good.

Good but not great scanner, fair quality copies, affordable ink, and I've never used the fax. Still, for only $300 (not $3,000) the convenience of having something in your own home studio cannot be beat in my opinion.

I do a lot of pen and ink drawings on Mylar at 11x17, I run a B&W copy and wash the bond paper with some watercolor. I then scan the artwork and e-mail it to my client or take the file to the printers to get blown up.

I should warn you that after a year of use it got picky about the paper in the 11x17 drawer. I switched to 32lb paper ($25 a pack) and the jambing stopped, and the quality of the prints went up a little with the better paper.

I bought mine at Staples, but all the big box stores carry this model. There is nothing else like it on the market.

EDIT: The quality of the prints is at least equal to my 12 year old 13x44 Epson 1270 printer, which was top rated in it's day.

[VTX]

New designs have been added to the gallery! Figured out an issue on why a bunch weren't uploading (I think) and will get more posted tomorrow or Friday. Here's some of the new designs and click here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160) to see all of them.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4921&d=1317751886



I really like the front and rear views of this car, but the side view could use a little tweaking IMHO. However, I have to give the designer credit, because it looks like he stuck to the template pretty well as far as the driver height goes. I wonder if the transmission will fit behind though?

[Idesign]

Fits to the T.. and not with the trumped up homemade template that has been floating around but to a real 95th % male form used in other real automotive development projects accounting for helmet clearance and elbow room no less. The official templates only called out hard dimensions for ground, front and rear track and wheelbase with a loose, non-dimensioned radiator, rear crush bar and roll bar. To me, the scale and placement of those items can float based on occupant packaging and layout and material selection and innovation. The way I believed the template was originated was to lock in a consistent, realistic platform but open it up for interpretation enough to elicit some cool fun and designs which have the chance to make it into the the next FF roadster. I liked how it was loose enough for designers, artist and dreamers to have fun with it and I love that it gives the opportunity for car nuts to have a shot at getting their creation brought to life.

49664967

[olpro]

I'm impressed with those drawings, and your design process.

(On the other hand, if you are referring to Kach22i's ("homemade") template, I must say that he is to be commended on his work to add some specificity to the FFR template)

[kach22i]

Fits to the T.. and not with the trumped up homemade template that has been floating around but to a real 95th % male form used in other real automotive development projects accounting for helmet clearance and elbow room no less. The official templates only called out hard dimensions for ground, front and rear track and wheelbase with a loose, non-dimensioned radiator, rear crush bar and roll bar. To me, the scale and placement of those items can float based on occupant packaging and layout and material selection and innovation. The way I believed the template was originated was to lock in a consistent, realistic platform but open it up for interpretation enough to elicit some cool fun and designs which have the chance to make it into the the next FF roadster. I liked how it was loose enough for designers, artist and dreamers to have fun with it and I love that it gives the opportunity for car nuts to have a shot at getting their creation brought to life.
Nice drawing.

For the record I never claimed that my revised template was perfect, in fact I've mentioned many times that the butt needs to be raised (2-"-4") for use of standard adjustable seating. I lined up the eyes with the FFR template, 6-foot tall male I used might be a 95% male, no one in the forum has been kind enough to confirm this for me.

I did this overlay below just to see how different the two templates are. The upright "German" seating position of my template (did my best to match FFR) can of course be angled back to a somewhat "Italian" (long arms and legs) seating position Idesign choose to work with.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-Idesign-template-match-side.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-Idesign-template-detail.jpg

I say in the whole scheme of things the templates are pretty close. The reclined angle of the back being the biggest difference. The wire car will make a snug "European" fit. I think any car designed for American's should include a couple more inches of headroom. However, that is just my opinion.

NOTE: All dimensions in red are approximate.

EDIT: This is where I get the suggested 7" butt height, an old Porsche 911..............I think that a Ferrari of similar vintage is just over 1-inch lower. Someone needs to measure and photo a Subie seat for us.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/seat-7.jpg

[Inthenameofweez]

I agree, that concept is gorgeous. Very nice work. I enjoy the front and rear very much.

I can't find a complaint. It's perfect.

[Colvindesign]

Cool, some more nice stuff in there. Did some overlays to see what was really going on with some of my favorites.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-BrianColvin19.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-BrianColvin15.jpg

I would actually fit in this car at 5'-4.5" tall, so would most women.

I actually used a porsche 911 as an underlay on the top one, lowering the greenhouse as I wanted it to be more exotic, which would make the driver use a more laid back position. However if the scale was messed with, and the wheel base grown a little, a lot could be done to make it workable. However the short wheelbase does make for good handling.

The yellow/ black one was and is a WIP still. I want to design it as a single model with multiple possibilities. It would have the main underbody, which could be driven without a windshield, (where legal) without fenders, etc. Or it could be dressed up with full fenders, a windshield and hard top. Something that could be a blank canvas and other designers could make their own exterior body panel designs.
http://imageshack.us/f/16/ffrspider5.jpg/ is the same vehicle as
http://imageshack.us/f/638/ffrspider4.jpg/

If something like this was made by FFR, it could launch a large amount of home-built designs. But I digress.I was hoping my designs would place, but was glad to participate regardless.

Mad Dog, I was not saying you didn't do your job, I just thought all of my sketches would be placed together, so if only some were posted I thought maybe they were not received. Thanks for all your work!

[Idesign]

You also have to take into consideration seat foam crush in your measurement. The H-point isn't sitting up on top of the foam as shown rather it is buried a little bit in. For comparison purposes I have brought in a 914 schematic to scale and aligned it to the floor. It appears that there is adequate room for a seat and track using a similar packaging constraint and in fact the 914 is smaller in most respects. I would go with a 13mm composite sandwich honeycomb floor panel to get the occupant CG as low as possible and reduce roll moments and I may be able to take some of the roof crown out to reduce overall frontal area.

4970

[VTX]

Fits to the T.. and not with the trumped up homemade template that has been floating around but to a real 95th % male form used in other real automotive development projects accounting for helmet clearance and elbow room no less. The official templates only called out hard dimensions for ground, front and rear track and wheelbase with a loose, non-dimensioned radiator, rear crush bar and roll bar. To me, the scale and placement of those items can float based on occupant packaging and layout and material selection and innovation. The way I believed the template was originated was to lock in a consistent, realistic platform but open it up for interpretation enough to elicit some cool fun and designs which have the chance to make it into the the next FF roadster. I liked how it was loose enough for designers, artist and dreamers to have fun with it and I love that it gives the opportunity for car nuts to have a shot at getting their creation brought to life.

49664967

Very nice! I like it even more after seeing this. In fact, I think it should have won an award and I'm quite surprised it didn't.

Did it actually get entered in time?

[olpro]

Keep in mind that these manikin locations you are both showing are rather extreme. Even a 911 has a much more lenient seating position because it has to deal with a lot of old farts who can actually afford that car.
This image shows a 90% American Male in a fairly low seating position, with a dimension of about 282mm from H-point to heel hard. Personally, I don’t think I would want to spend much time in a seat with a lower position than this.
You can see the seat cushion depression on this image too.
Where it fits to the GROUND, I don’t know in this case. That does become an issue for entry and exit however.
4971

[Idesign]

Yes


Very nice! I like it even more after seeing this. In fact, I think it should have won an award and I'm quite surprised it didn't.

Did it actually get entered in time?

[VTX]

Yes

Wow... I can't believe it didn't win something. It's a very nice design.

[Mad Dog]

Got more designs posted this afternoon. Click here to visit the gallery. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160) As always, here's a sample of some of the new uploads.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5013&d=1317930928

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4992&d=1317930811

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4972&d=1317930688

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4998&d=1317930845

[Idesign]

My design is 4.25" taller in height than a Ford GT and 3" shorter than a 2011 911 so I would say that it is right in there as far as a competitive analysis with similar cars. How the driver is positioned in this envelope is a matter of engineering the interior volume but this was a little beyond the scope of this contest. I guess this is why new car designs rarely go from drawing board to full on production. There is an intangible to sitting in a space and reaching for gloves, turning knobs and examining ingress/egress. Something like sill height and depth can turn even the most optimal side view seating position into an ergonomic issue. Anyone who has climbed into an original GT-40 can attest to that. One last question.. should a sports car be practical and convenient in every way or just a little impractical. If it needs to be a one size fits all, a better debate would be departure and approach angles. And where does the golf bag go?


Keep in mind that these manikin locations you are both showing are rather extreme. Even a 911 has a much more lenient seating position because it has to deal with a lot of old farts who can actually afford that car.
This image shows a 90% American Male in a fairly low seating position, with a dimension of about 282mm from H-point to heel hard. Personally, I don’t think I would want to spend much time in a seat with a lower position than this.
You can see the seat cushion depression on this image too.
Where it fits to the GROUND, I don’t know in this case. That does become an issue for entry and exit however.
4971

[kach22i]

How the driver is positioned in this envelope is a matter of engineering the interior volume but this was a little beyond the scope of this contest.
From what I see, you are planning on re-engineering the drivetrain and steel tube structural system to save a few inches in height. Was this your original intent?

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-Idesign-template-detail-blueseat.jpg

Seating alternates including selection of carbon fiber seats with no padding bolted to the floor are of course options for the track guys, or really big guys who need the extra room. In my opinion, it's best to design for the norm, not rely on an extreme condition or example to make a clean sheet design work.

I've been taking measurements of cars and using human templates to design cars, hovercraft, and aircraft for over 35 years. This was done for fun, for school projects and out of plain curiosity, feeding a thirst for knowledge. I'm not a seating engineering, an ergo-engineering or anything like that. I do however professionally deal with building programs, packaging/integration of building systems, room layouts, building layouts, form, function and space planning.

It's nice to have the latest tools, but experience and the ability to made sound design decisions based on that experience cannot be beat. Computers do not think for you, never will, at least not for a couple more years. In the end, I think oldpro once again trumps the conversation with a real world example. Looking at a 35 year old LeMans race car for space planning is rather silly in my opinion, even when Ford redid the GT-40 as the new Ford GT it was larger in almost every dimension to make it a livable street car.

You can look at the FFR GTM supercar for super low Ford GT/GT-40 type seating. It was my understanding the 818 would not attempt to replicate the GTM packaging, human or otherwise. The 818 would be a car one would feel safe to drive in traffic. The Ford GT owners I've spoken with feel that others cannot see them because they sit too low. However, the cops always seem to be able to see them, and keeping up with traffic can be a problem without being singled out for a speeding ticket.

[Idesign]

I'm glad you brought up the Ford GT. Since I worked on that program it is very near and dear to me. In fact there was a vintage GT 40 in studio so that we could pull key dimensions off of it and draw inspiration from its heritage, not copy any one thing. There were also a lot of Ford Taurus, Focus and Murcury Cougar parts laying around.

"I think oldpro once again trumps the conversation with a real world example." I wasn't aware this was a competition.

Now I'm going to get off this train because it is silly and I refuse to be drawn into such inane banter any further. You win!

[kach22i]

I'm glad you brought up the Ford GT. Since I worked on that program it is very near and dear to me. In fact there was a vintage GT 40 in studio so that we could pull key dimensions off of it and draw inspiration from its heritage, not copy any one thing. There were also a lot of Ford Taurus, Focus and Murcury Cougar parts laying around.

"I think oldpro once again trumps the conversation with a real world example." I wasn't aware this was a competition.

Now I'm going to get off this train because it is silly and I refuse to be drawn into such inane banter any further. You win!
I've met a couple of people who worked on the Ford GT program before, it takes a village.

MOD EDIT: Removed beligerant post.

[kach22i]

This is nicely balanced, not too aggressive or pretentious for a 4-cylinder car. The mass reduction in the hind quarters without being too reminiscent of a Porsche is commendable.
5025

[kach22i]

I like this Audi R8 meets Lotus Elise with a pinch of Mazda RX8, but the sad face of the rear distracts from the rest of it. The rear valance can be fixed, I wonder what other rear end treatments were explored.
5026

[Idesign]

MOD EDIT: Removed insult. Infraction given

[kach22i]

A little high in the rear, but a fine hand drawn entry.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-JoshuaWilliams4.jpg

Sorry about the typo Josh, it's near lunch and I need food.;)

[Mad Dog]

Some more designs are now posted in the gallery. Click here to check them out. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160) And always, here's a little sample of the new additions...

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5059&d=1317999644

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5049&d=1317999634

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5032&d=1317999615

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5055&d=1317999640

[David Hodgkins]

Folks, it seems that further action is needed in this thread.

2 members have received infractions. If this thread cannot continue without conflict, we will have to take further steps to make sure it doesn't go off track.

[thebeerbaron]

This was a poor attempt at humor. Don't upset the Wookie :)

[skullandbones]

This is like a riot at an MMA convention. Solution: modulation valve to reduce egoboost (good work speaks for itself). IMHO. WEK.

[kach22i]

Fits to the T.. and not with the trumped up homemade template that has been floating around but to a real 95th % male form used in other real automotive development projects accounting for helmet clearance and elbow room no less.

An offensive and inaccurate statement.

[BipDBo]

An offensive and inaccurate statement.

Wow. You offend more easily than a taliban reading the comics.

[kach22i]

Wow. You offend more easily than a taliban reading the comics.
Real funny, but did you see how many posts and time has past since that leading quote was made.

I let it pass, but now need to point it out because of what's happened.

I'm somehow the belligerent one now, go figure.

[BipDBo]

5060

There's a lot of good looking submissions, but this is one that stands out to me. I'm not crazy about the big mouth, but that seems to be a popular style. To each his own. Everything else about this car, I love. It would look so good sitting in my driveway that I can hear the neighbors saying, "Why can't that guy spend less money on his cars, and more to fix up that POS house?" This particular design looks to be well thought out and totally doable.

[BipDBo]

Well, everything's going to offend someone, I guess. There's probably some Taliban car nut hoping to build himself a sweet looking 818 car bomb so he can go out in style. He probably read my post, and said, "Hey! I KILL you!"

Seriously, though, (MOD:EDIT) loosen up. It's a forum. Also, you may want to chill out a bit with the template criticisms. People spent a lot of time on their submissions, and they don't want to hear you point out how they may be off here or there. Dave warned about straying from the template and guess what, the top three submissions all fit pretty close.

I think part of me is testing to see what I have to say before Dave Hodgkins issues me an infraction.

[kach22i]

5060I'm not crazy about the big mouth, but that seems to be a popular style. To each his own.
There might be a way to add function to that form if that helps.

Air Curtain
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/air-curtain-17418.html
5062

[BipDBo]

There might be a way to add function to that form if that helps.

Air Curtain
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/air-curtain-17418.html
5062

Yeah, but that just uses a small inlet. If you take only the size of inlet you need for the radiator, some ducts to blow fresh air onto the disks, and some air for this air curtain, you are left with much less intake area than what is desired by popular style. To solve this, many manufacturers use matte black plastic to give the illusion of a larger intake. Take this Camaro for example:
5065
Personally, I find that practice kind of cheesy.

[kach22i]

Yeah, but that just uses a small inlet.
I'm pretty sure that in that eco-thread the receiving face area (blocked-off or black area) can be larger than the actual inlet area.

Anyways, good design ideas are never waisted, they often get recycled for the next project in one form or another.;)

http://www.abcbusinesssupplies.com/aboutus.html
5067

[BipDBo]

Yay, I got an edit! It's no "infraction," but I'll take it. Treasure the simple things in life.

[kach22i]

Yay, I got an edit! It's no "infraction," but I'll take it. Treasure the simple things in life.
Infractions are like getting a black eye in High School, it looks a lot cooler than it feels.:eek:
.................................................. .................................................. .................


EDIT: Okay boys and girls, here is the new deal; DO NOT click the link below if the whole template thing bores you.

CLICK the link below if; you are curious about how some of the contest designs would look with a non-perfect but based on the FFR template overlay.

Link:
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/

Statement: I do these overlays to address and quench my own curiosity, and to learn what works, what does not, and why. All this in theory should make me a better designer or at least develop a sensibility beyond the initial "wow factor" some of these designs are able to provoke.

I'm guessing that I'll do more overlays, if I bother to do so, I'll just post them in the same Photobucket album and not announce it. Unless someone is curious about a specific design, or someone else in the forum makes some outlandish claim contrary to what I can prove, I will not post an image in this thread. Of course I cannot foresee all future situations, so I'll play it by ear, nothing is written in stone.

As far as I know no one has complained about me doing an overlay of their design. If that ever happened you can be sure that I would remove the image upon request of the artist. I will not remove any images where the person has lied about their own accuracy or attacked me under false pretenses. To the best of my knowledge the people who have complained either never submitted a design, made misleading statements or thought they were defending someone else.

That is all.

[mekeys]

I don't see anyting wrong with overlays.I rather ejoyed them..

Mel

[flyboy2160]

I don't see anyting wrong with overlays.I rather ejoyed them..

Mel

++1

[BipDBo]

Infractions are like getting a black eye in High School, it looks a lot cooler than it feels.:eek:


If I get 3 infractions, am I issued a warning?

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, it's just that a lot of nasty arguments seem to be happening over these template overlays. You can feel free to overlay mine, but I know that it was designed dead on the template.

I think that we should just stick to one rule that's not usually used in this media: While discussing on a forum, say only what you would if you were speaking to a person face to face. And for this forum, you might want to pretend that your mom is also in the room.

[yeahmaha]

MOD EDIT: Insulting post removed. Infraction given.

[D2W]

I sure hope this forum doesn't turn into one of those forums where personal attacks become the basis of arguments instead of on-topic exchange of information and ideas.

[LuckyWinner]

That's pretty cool and exotic looking. I wonder if it would fit the template or not?
Thats my choice!!!!

[kach22i]

I don't see anyting wrong with overlays. I rather ejoyed them..

Mel
Thanks Mel, it is nice to hear from you.

[David Hodgkins]

I sure hope this forum doesn't turn into one of those forums where personal attacks become the basis of arguments instead of on-topic exchange of information and ideas.

It won't.

:)

[Colvindesign]

I like a lot of elements and a lot of the style in these entries. I really would have loved to be involved in a an open source shared design team with a lot of the talent here. I think many of the entrees are phenomenal but could have been that much better had we worked together!

[thebeerbaron]

I like a lot of elements and a lot of the style in these entries. I really would have loved to be involved in a an open source shared design team with a lot of the talent here. I think many of the entrees are phenomenal but could have been that much better had we worked together!

I agree with you to a point - without a unified theme and direction, teamwork can become "too many cooks spoil the broth". You get a mish-mash of compromises that don't look good at all.

What I think would be awesome would be teams doing revisions on the 1/4-scale models. These designs have never been revised, "simply" popped into 3-D. I've never had an art project that was perfect on the first go-around. I think that after the models are revealed, the designs would benefit from individuals or teams presenting revisions and enhancements to the current designs. Given the pool of talent that has been established by the design contest, I think that further input from designers would have a profoundly positive effect on the final body.

[D2W]

I agree with you to a point - without a unified theme and direction, teamwork can become "too many cooks spoil the broth". You get a mish-mash of compromises that don't look good at all.

What I think would be awesome would be teams doing revisions on the 1/4-scale models. These designs have never been revised, "simply" popped into 3-D. I've never had an art project that was perfect on the first go-around. I think that after the models are revealed, the designs would benefit from individuals or teams presenting revisions and enhancements to the current designs. Given the pool of talent that has been established by the design contest, I think that further input from designers would have a profoundly positive effect on the final body.

This is a very interesting idea, and probably could really refine the end products. There are aspects of all the designs I think could be improved upon. Kind of like a second chance.

P.S. Thanks for all your work David H.

[Idesign]

If you look at the Local Motors approach, everyone competes in a design contest within a given theme. The beat ones are chosen and teams work to iterate on it and phase in the engineering. It is a long process as it should be. it would have to be somewhat formal to be able to vet the poor ideas without offending people. I liked some of the comments that came up during this contest like how members weighed in on how they used their cars and what was important to them. The track and autocross guys had specific things they needed over the hobbiest that likes to tinker and gets off more on the build. I think it is a unique group of auto enthusiast that if channeled could concieve something great.

[olpro]

.. The beat ones are chosen and teams work to iterate on it and phase in the engineering....
I realize that is just a typo but nonetheless it highlights an actual problem with the 'group' design process.

[Idesign]

I realize that is just a typo but nonetheless it highlights an actual problem with the 'group' design process.

Haha, more like a Freudian slip. Yes, design by committee can be a nightmare without strong leadership.

[Colvindesign]

I was thinking of teams of 3-4 at the most. Too many in the process make it too many captains and no one steering the ship. It could be a huge failure, or a huge success.

[Mad Dog]

35 new images have been added to the gallery. 465 photos...it's growing. Probably reaching the halfway point of all the entries. Click here to visit the gallery (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)

And always, here' a sample of the new designs that have been added...

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5187&d=1318357501

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5174&d=1318357490

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5165&d=1318357482

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5180&d=1318357495

[Arrowhead]

I've been following this project loosely all along and am curious. Will the side bars make entry/exit difficult? They look to be near the shoulder and running down by the knee.

[mekeys]

Thanks for adding all the new photos to the gallery.I have looked at them all (465)...

----------------Mel------------

[Oppenheimer]

I've been following this project loosely all along and am curious. Will the side bars make entry/exit difficult? They look to be near the shoulder and running down by the knee.

There is speculation that this aspect of the prototype chassis will be revised.

[kach22i]

There is speculation that this aspect of the prototype chassis will be revised.
That is news to me.

I posted a couple of yellow and red line mark-up studies here: http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/


http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OVERLAY-PORSCHE-TRACK-ACCIDENT.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/side-bar-818.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-818frame-redbar.jpg

From my rough study, the main diagonal bar might be as much as 5" above the 911 track car example.

Please note that last time I tried to do a study in perspective it was sort of a mess and pretty much a waste of time.

Comparing one car, to another only makes it more difficult, but it was a context thing I was trying to sort out in my mind, not much else.

[David Hodgkins]

That is news to me...

I stated in the original spy shot thread that the chassis was going to be revised and that the side bars would probably be moved.

:)

[Hiryu]

35 new images have been added to the gallery. 465 photos...it's growing. Probably reaching the halfway point of all the entries. Click here to visit the gallery (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)



What all needs to be done to get the photos ready for upload? If it's a resizing, I've written a program that takes all the images in one directory and resizes them to a specific width (maintaining aspect ratio). It also renames and creates thumbs for them....I created it for the images on my website. If this might help and expedite the progress, let me know.

That said, thanks for all the work you've done getting these up!

Mike

[mekeys]

I'd like to see the photos posted like www.designerspace.com does theirs it would easier to see more at a glance.


Mel

[Mad Dog]

Mike - Another forum member has also written a program to help resize the photos. The reason I am not using it is I am going through each photo any way to make sure people's personal information (address, phone number, e-mail address) are also removed. Thanks for offering to help! We'll get the rest of the submissions posted soon.

Mel - Just checked out www.designerspace.com and that's a pretty cool way to organize them. Unfortunately, I haven't seen a way to do that on this forum besides creating a separate gallery for each designer. I opted to keep all of the designs together so that there'd be one location to see all of the submissions. Helps keep the forum galleries a little bit more organized. But having the drop-down menu withing the design gallery would be cool. Dave H. - can we write some code to make that option possible?

[kach22i]

I stated in the original spy shot thread that the chassis was going to be revised and that the side bars would probably be moved.

:)

Link to that thread?
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3671-SHHH!-I-m-at-FFR-today-10-01-2011-WITH-A-CAMERA!

Do you mean this thread in the general section? I was the first one who provided the link from the General section to it in the 818 section. This means I read all of your comments and not just the cut & paste of images as others have done. I've gone back and re-read, I still see no mention of side bar or frame changes.




Here are some shots of the 818 chassis mule #1. Dave told me that the seat floors are going to be cut out. The early design had the tank under the seats, but FFR is currently designing a custom gas tank:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4828&d=1317494618

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4827&d=1317494617

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4826&d=1317494616

David, if you are thinking about another thread, or if I somehow missed your comment please take the time to point it out to me. I'm far from perfect and do miss things once in a while, and I forget even more.:)

[thebeerbaron]

David, if you are thinking about another thread, or if I somehow missed your comment please take the time to point it out to me. I'm far from perfect and do miss things once in a while, and I forget even more.:)

here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3678-Lastest-pics-trying-to-see-the-light..&p=35079&viewfull=1#post35079)

[kach22i]

here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3678-Lastest-pics-trying-to-see-the-light..&p=35079&viewfull=1#post35079)

From that link:

I do know that the chassis is being reworked pretty substantially in an effort to hide the outer diagonals. I don't know if it is in the plans to lower the center diagonal but it looks to me like it's a "load bearing" part.

The word hide must be intended to mean revised and moved.

I guess that explains how I missed it, I thought they were just going to put doors on the car or employ some other form of concealment.

The more I read it (chassis is being reworked pretty substantially), the more I get the feeling the whole frame is a start over.

I did not think the 818 frame was all that different from other FFR efforts, and maybe it is still not.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?825-Ingress-and-Egress/page2

FYI: FFR GTM frame for reference.

http://www.cicenet.net/showthread.php?p=194839
http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/images/rollingchassis/C1.jpg

http://kitcar.automotive.com/26631/0611kc-factory-five-gtm/photos10-0.html
http://image.automotive.com/f/featuredvehicles/9193936+soriginal/0611kc_14_z+factory_five_gtm+chassis_rear.jpg

EDIT: I've marked-up a photo to examine and compare the steel tubing of the two cars.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Frame-gtm_03_z-1.jpg

If anyone views this as an attack and not an attempt to learn and create an intelligent discussion then I'll just leave the forum. Design is about making decisions, and it helps to compare or have a choice to verify that you have made the correct decision. If you have not, then you go back to the drawing board and make it right. It's like that in all design professions, it's not a straight line, its all circular, backwards and eventually you come out on top of the problem. It's hard work, many times you have to leave your ego at the door, not easy to do (and I know this first hand). And yes, sometimes you have to start over, but it's all part of the design game.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-GTM-profile.jpg

EDIT-2: This should make it more clear, photo to photo.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GTM-profile-818-overlay-photos.jpg

[olpro]

"...And yes, sometimes you have to start over, but it's all part of the design game."

So true.

[kach22i]

"...And yes, sometimes you have to start over, but it's all part of the design game."

So true.
Speaking of starting over, and as a spill-over of some of oldpro's comments in the Interior thread, I've developed a new template for myself (and my own projects). Mind you it might be unfair to apply it to contest entries, as it is an attempt at some ergonomic accuracy beyond those rules.

In the interior thread oldpro outlined how a large automobile company typically does not start a seating layout from scratch, that it develops an interior typically on a similar vehicle and refines it. With this approach in mind, and knowing that the Porsche Boxster came amazingly close to fitting the FFR template, I choose the Boxster as my starting point (and I know the Boxster fits my small frame well, and fits taller people too).

I first used my 6-foot tall manikin from the modified FFR template I've been using, and raised the seat as expected (dropped the legs at the knee). I kept the eyes and head in the vertical all lined up, and did not alter the arm reach or angle the seat back. Overall it worked out, I even tested in on a recently posted design as a test.

One tiny change worth noting is the tire deflection from the weight of the car; was zero on the FFR temple, 1" on my modified template, and is now 1-1/2" on "Template-3" (based on what the Boxster drawing looked like).

I tried to label the automobile's cowl, and kept the Boxster lines in as reference points, because I want to avoid super long viewing distances (windshield to eye) in the future.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Template-3-overlay-base.jpg

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Seating-detail-3.jpg

Here is the Boxster, I'm not sure the ribbing depth and coolant lines running under the car really take up a full 4 inches in depth, I drew the FFR 818 composite floor structure (steel tube and floor panel) depth to just 2 inches (hope this is not a mistake).
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Boxster-Template-more-notes.jpg

In conclusion, I think the overall height will have to be 4-5 inches higher than given in the original contest FFR/818 template. Because of the liberties I took in the floor structure the 818 might be 4" lower than the Boxster, only FFR can tell us for sure.

EDIT:
If your design worked before, it should be real close to working again, no need to worry. Below is my 7th design, requires little modification to fit Template-3.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay3-GKA-7-.jpg

EDIT-2: These templates take a step further and look at elbow room for the center shifter with respect to the center brace condition.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay3b-GKA-TEMPLATE-elbow-sidebar.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/DETAIL-3b-GKA-TEMPLATE-elbow-sidebar.jpg

Of course, if the seating is more like the Lotus Evora (posted before), then the template I was using still stands.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Template-3-LOTUS-EAGLE-VS-FFR-TEMPLATE.jpg

[kach22i]

MadDog, would you say that around 25% of the entries have been posted?

I've estimated at close to 500 images have been posted, rough average of three images per entry, gives us almost 25% of 700.

I sent in eight designs, all very different from each other. Any chance more than the one already posted will go up on the wall?

[Mad Dog]

I'm a little more than half way through the folders that I have from Grassroots Motorsports and presently working through the M's (sorted by first name).

If I've by chance missed a design that you submitted, or if you wish to not have your design be a part of the gallery, please send me a PM with your first and last name.

I'm trying to edit some more designs right now (removing name, phone, and e-mail address) and will have the additions posted shortly.

[Mad Dog]

Didn't get to edit as many as I had hoped today but will try to get more up by the end of the week. Click here to see the new additions to the Design Gallery. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160) And as always, here's a sample:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5351&d=1318968788

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5354&d=1318968791

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5347&d=1318968784

[Mad Dog]

Another 52 images have been added to the gallery. Click here to check them all out. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160)

Here are a few of the new additions:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5431&d=1319044896

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5410&d=1319044866

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5381&d=1319044841

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5418&d=1319044881

[kach22i]

Some really interesting rendering techniques in this batch.

The Midas touch of Matthias Doare's golden car is memorable.

For some reason the computer planes of Matthew Skinner's project appeals to me. Maybe it has fabric car covering potential written in it's DNA.

[riptide motorsport]

there are some great submissions there! Some are very intricate, too intricate to affordably produce but very nice none the less

[olpro]

Kach22i,
This is an attempt at a more refined seating package, over the FFR template that the folks used in this contest.
The template is rough, not really designed for this level of engineering, so I needed to make a few interpretations.
First, the template didn’t specify a wheel or tire, or allow for tire squish, so I modeled a real wheel and tire (8”x18” with 45mm offset – 225x18”-40 series tires) with a proper static load rating to establish an actual ground plane. These choices are realistic but slightly larger than the lines on the template. On the other hand, this approach resulted in ground and floor locations very close to the template’s intention. I would probably place a larger wheel and tire on the rears but for this study, that is jumping ahead – so this drawing has a level ground and floor. I did hold the FFR wheel centers, letting the ground and floor float accordingly.
The pinkish line is an accurate tracing of the FFR template, so you can see how things line up.
My forward manikin is a 50% American Male, the rearward is a 95% American Male. The H-point is established by the 50% figure but the seat track would typically slope downward to the rear (to lower the seating position for the long legged guy). Nonetheless, the torso length of the larger man would cause problems with headroom so, in that case, the seat would have to be mounted directly on the floor which would drop the guy about 50mm and bring the headroom into the acceptable range. I didn’t show that position on this drawing however. It does represent a viable approach for the wookie sized people but at some loss of flexibility.
The template gives a general location for the back angle but nothing for foot pedals - so I made some guesses on this. I am not totally convinced the feet are in the best position and would like to move them forward, in order to give a little more angle between the thighs and back angle. I think the seat height from H-point to heel is reasonable for this class of vehicle.
The cowl would have to be positioned for reasonable downward vision and windshield and roof should also be designed for the final seating package.
The grid is metric, if anyone wants to measure anything. I placed the grid “zeros” at the front wheel centerline for easier reference.
5439

[olpro]

This shows a 95% American Male lowered 50mm, which gives him about the same headroom as the 50% guy. Now however, the seat is probably not on a sliding rail and certainly wouldn’t fit a smaller or even average sized driver.
Also, at this point the legs are pushing the pedals forward a couple of inches. This may not be a problem, or it could be a big one depending on the chassis design.
5441

[xabier]

Hi guys!
I have just read an article I thought would be interesting for all of us, 818 followers ;)
Hope you like it and it may even give someone a better image of what this great car will be able to do!

Top 10 Superlight roadsters:

http://www.diseno-art.com/news_content/2011/10/top-10-superlight-roadsters/

[kach22i]

Also, at this point the legs are pushing the pedals forward a couple of inches. This may not be a problem, or it could be a big one depending on the chassis design.
I'll have to see how this compares to my earlier attempts, looks comparable at first glance.

I have no idea how FFR will decide to construct the floor, a floor which will have to support an adjustable seat on street models. My Template-3 allowed for 2" of structure, assumed 1-1/2" steel tube supporting an inlaid tube flush with bottom side frame, and 1/2" or 1/4" of perhaps honeycomb panel for a flush aerodynamic under-belly of car. If they use steel angles in lieu of tubes for seat support for the rails, then it could be lower, right? Heck, now that I think about it, a simple steel plate about 24"x24" under each person welded to the tubes would do, not sure about the weight though.

For reference the Lotus Eagle/Evora drawing showed a single line, maybe a composite, or a sheet metal, I don't know for sure. The Boxster was about 4 inches in floor depth, I made Template-3 at half that. In any case reusing the stock Subie seats should help hold costs down, and those have a fairly upright and elevated seating position. I don't have enough experience in this area to predict the final outcome, just too many variables.




http://www.diseno-art.com/news_content/2011/10/top-10-superlight-roadsters/

All of them are "open wheel", interesting.

[xabier]

Well, that´s true, but look at their weight too, they are quite a lot lower. And then is the practical aspect... sure they all are great fun, but if the 818 mantains its characteristics, it will be just as great, and with a propper body!

[kach22i]

Well, that´s true, but look at their weight too, they are quite a lot lower. And then is the practical aspect... sure they all are great fun, but if the 818 mantains its characteristics, it will be just as great, and with a propper body!
Yea, the range is about 470-700 kgs, 875 for the V8 Elfin Clubman (a lot of that weight must be engine). The closest comparables leave only about 100 kgs for a more generous enclosure/body. Going to be tight, but not impossible.

This is hot.
http://www.diseno-art.com/encyclopedia/vehicles/road/cars/donto_p1.html
5447

Not on the list, but I have a weight for it, KTM X-Bow at 790 kg / 1742 lbs.
http://www.diseno-art.com/encyclopedia/vehicles/road/cars/ktm_x-bow.html

[kach22i]

This shows a 95% American Male..............

Thank you for posting these templates. Looks like the 95 percentile male I have been using is a little taller in the torso, about a full inch. The legs seem okay, but might be a tad longer, fractions of an inch though. Is an 95% american male an even 6'-0" tall standing up? I still don't know, but it's very close.

I did a series of overlays, with ground planes lined up, my driver is 1" higher (Template-3), which is the torso (body trunk) discrepancy. With the interior of the floors lined up my manikin in Template-3 actually sits 1" lower than olpro's wookie.

So at this point it's plus or minus 1" variance either way you look at it, and is splitting hairs on the top of the manikin's head.

Template-2 .............overlay
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-olpro-FFRman.jpg

Template-2 ..........wookie overlay
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-olpro-lowwookie.jpg

Template-3 ...........floor plane the same
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/template3-olpro-FFRman.jpg

Template-3 .............ground plane the same
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/teemplate3-at-grade-overlay-olpro-FFRman.jpg

[olpro]

When I measure my 95% Am.Male in a vertical position, he is about 73 ¾” tall. The 50% Am.Male is about 69” tall. Of course the SAE manikins come without heads, so when they are added, there is opportunity for some error.
The bottom line is that these manikins are only useful to a point, and can never really represent the entire population. They are better than nothing and a great starting point toward a measurable physical seating study.

Kach, your manikins are essentially as valid, and as useful as my SAE versions. The important thing it to try to be as systematic as possible and never assume the seating is “okay” - without testing it by some means. Of course it is good to keep in mind that I am a designer, not a seating engineer. My interpretation of the manikin is therefore subject to additional error.

Another lesson is that the folks who take huge liberties with the package height (what I would call “cheating”) are being foolish and very misleading - and their results, though maybe exciting and cool, are not to be trusted at all.

[kach22i]

The important thing it to try to be as systematic as possible and never assume the seating is “okay” - without testing it by some means.

Way back when I was in High School I designed a hovercraft for my drafting class. The teacher said it was okay with him that I design it just for myself. Taking measurements of myself I designed a craft no one else in the class could fit in (I was the shortest kid in the class). I got an "A" in the class, I could not replicate that perfect lettering to this day. I then realized after I was finished that the plans had no commercial value. After that experience of being selfish to a fault but having perfectly drafted plans I swore off such acts (for life).

In fact later on in college hearing stories of Frank Lloyd Wright with his narrow hallways with low ceilings leading to the bedrooms (he was short and scaled it to himself) left me unimpressed with that aspect of his designs. All of my Industrial Designs after the hovercraft used a template called "Oscar" (a name given by one of the Big Three design studios), I glued paper to cardboard and used straight pins at the joints. I stabbed myself so many times with those pins in my college years I must have lost a pint of blood to "the cause".

I once built a full sized mock-up made of foam core board to represent a segment or section of a memorial which I helped design (Michigan State Police - Fallen Officers). I was trying to get the human scale right, including the sight line angles. I even printed some lettering, to make sure it was large enough for most people to read. The two head designers above me thought I was a little nuts, but gave me some rope. Based on the attention it got in the office they knew the client might react with an equal level of excitement, so they had me do even more sections. As crazy as this may sound, it's really nothing. An architect in Boston in the early 1970's had two full sized apartment mock-ups built in a warehouse so the client could walk though them (and confirm cross-flow natural ventilation), and then give final approval for the sizable project.

EDIT-1: Found this doing a Google search on Oscar.

Oscar, GM's Metal Mannequin, Helps Develop Comfortable Cars
http://www.autotrader.com/research/article/car-news/111265/oscar-gms-metal-mannequin-helps-develop-comfortable-cars.jsp

[Mad Dog]

Sorry for the delay in getting more designs added to the gallery, but 30 new images have been added to the gallery. Will try to get more uploaded later this week as well. Click here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160) to view the full gallery and here's a sample of the new designs.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5875&d=1320690880

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5867&d=1320690873

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5855&d=1320690863

[olpro]

Mike Druchunas's images really suffer from a way-too-wide-angle-lens but are strangely interesting nonetheless.

[05xtsy]

I haven't seen a single one of my designs in the gallery. Im confused because I submitted a lot, hope you're not finished with the gallery.

[Hiryu]

It's being processed alphabetically, and it's at the "Michael"s or so. if your name comes before that, then they might have missed you. Otherwise, you should still be coming (I'm still waiting for mine).

Mike

[kach22i]

It's being processed alphabetically, and it's at the "Michael"s or so. if your name comes before that, then they might have missed you. Otherwise, you should still be coming (I'm still waiting for mine).

Mike
I did not realize this.

Just 1 of 8 designs I sent in has been posted, I asked MadDog to try and post the others after everyone has at least one of their designs posted.

[mekeys]

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc465/mekeys/img323_1.jpgI guess my design want get posted,I didn't know until after the contest was over that it should have been posted on the grassroots web site.

Heh Mad Dog would it be possible to add mine to the group ?????

Mel

[Olimk2]

Still waiting for mine too...

[kach22i]

Mel, I sent you a PM, did I attach the wrong file?
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/Mel-Keys-Modified-Targa-Kach22i.jpg

There were some Maserati and Spyker influences, right?

I added some Jaguar XJ-13 with the Targa look, what do you think?

[mekeys]

Looks good to me.I like the windshield and the targa top both.The "M" shape of the grill is for Mel

Mel

[Mad Dog]

More photos have been added to the gallery. Here's a few samples and click here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160) to check out all of the entries.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6249&d=1321633052

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6236&d=1321633041

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6238&d=1321633043

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6226&d=1321633033

[Olimk2]

Ahh, thanks a lot, even if it's not that important now i'm very happy to see my designs there!!

[kach22i]

Ahh, thanks a lot, even if it's not that important now i'm very happy to see my designs there!!
I like your design, but the rear view lost me. Did you work on any alternate rear ends?

[Olimk2]

Speaking of the red one? Yes i've made different things, but i choose this in the end. Had a third design as well but didn't make it in time...Takes me ages to make decent photoshop renderings....

[kach22i]

I spent about 45 minutes on this, I don't have Photoshop but did my best to imagine a less squishy rear end. What did your alternates look like?

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OlivierFranceschi61.jpg
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/kach22i-modified-OlivierFranceschi6.jpg

I think a slightly rounded out version of this, not so rigid and angular and rendered better would look pretty good. Rounding out and softening the corners no more than found on your side intake vent would be more sympathetic to your original.

[crackedcornish]

I spent about 45 minutes on this, I don't have Photoshop but did my best to imagine a less squishy rear end. What did your alternates look like?

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/OlivierFranceschi61.jpg
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/kach22i-modified-OlivierFranceschi6.jpg

I think a slightly rounded out version of this, not so rigid and angular and rendered better would look pretty good. Rounding out and softening the corners no more than found on your side intake vent would be more sympathetic to your original.

George, can you try just putting a low wing or spoiler on the original versions tail to visually break up the falling lines at the rear please

[kach22i]

George, can you try just putting a low wing or spoiler on the original versions tail to visually break up the falling lines at the rear please
No, I used up my computer time for the day.

A big arse wing would certainly sport-up the rear, and function pretty well as far as I understand aerodynamics.

It may sound weird, but when ever someone besides Porsche/VW/Audi does a slope-away tail I don't like it. I do sort of like the Chrysler Crossfire, but it's a near miss at best.

For example, this designer (link below) does nice work, but many of his cars just look melted or squished to me.
http://www.emilbadal.com/2010/01/22/eb-48s-concept/

[Olimk2]

Well well, i see what you mean, needs some rounding!!

[kach22i]

Well well, i see what you mean, needs some rounding!!
I'm thinking a little more softened/rounded than this Corvair (and other examples), and maybe add a decrete mini wing attachment, built-in wing, or rear spoiler.

http://www.corvaircorsa.com/brekke01.html
6343

http://www.autotita.com/chevrolet/chevrolet-corvette-indy
6344

http://www.lamborghini-tuning.com/bilder/imsa-tuning-lamborghini-gallardo-red-aerodynamic-and-body-kit-complete-rear-im4000101.html
6345

[Fast818]

Hi Mad Dog any new photo's of 818 entries ?

Thank you :-)

[Mad Dog]

I have a few more photos edited from one designer ready to post, but was going to try and get some more together before uploading them. We've been busy with other projects here at FFR, but I'll try to get a new batch of photos uploaded this week.

[BipDBo]

I have a few more photos edited from one designer ready to post, but was going to try and get some more together before uploading them. We've been busy with other projects here at FFR, but I'll try to get a new batch of photos uploaded this week.

I'm sure that you have had much bigger fish to fry. Now Dave wants you to whip up a t-shirt. Thank you for humoring us.

[kach22i]

Narcis Mares's designs are interesting, but difficult to evaluate with the induced perspective of the side views.

[Mad Dog]

Some more photos have been added to the design submissions gallery. 37 to be exact (37!). Here's a sample and make sure to check out all of the submissions in the gallery (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160).

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6609&d=1323198324

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6605&d=1323198320

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6590&d=1323198306

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6597&d=1323198312

[Hiryu]

Now I'm a bit curious...I thought they were being posted in alphabetical order by first name, but it looks like we're on the P's and I haven't seen any of mine (Michael P) save for the one that made a monthly winner. I had about 14 designs and several images and videos of each....I'm guessing that it's not a strict alphabetical posting?

Thanks
Mike

[Mad Dog]

Hi Mike,

I'll double check the folder I have with all of the submission folders. There's a chance I might've missed yours.

[JAE]

I have also been waiting to see my submission posted. Although I only did one design, the PDF file was quite large as it included variations for a roadster, coupe and spec. racer as well as other details and layouts. I did try to post in into an album, but to date I have been unable to successfully upload it (kind of new to posting thing on a forum). It would be great to see it up.

Thanks
John E

[kach22i]

I had about 14 designs and several images and videos of each....
Mike I really like your work, I counted 17 in the "family" shot of all the cars.

I had a terrible time trying to decide which one or ones I liked best.

[Hiryu]

Thanks for the compliment. 17 models? I did waste a lot of time on this, didn't I? :)

Maybe if my submissions can't be found, then I can at least tell myself that's the reason why they didn't get anyplace in the contest. :P

Mike

[kitcarj]

Maybe if my submissions can't be found, then I can at least tell myself that's the reason why they didn't get anyplace in the contest. :P
Mike
That was my thought. I couldn't believe they passed up on a great design(s) where they could have used the same base car with multiple looks by switching the front and/or rear clips. Increase flexibility with less development time, money and energy.

[Mad Dog]

Added a bunch of images from JAE and Hiryu. Click here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160) to see all of them and I hope to get some more designs posted during the week.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6737&d=1323707993

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6727&d=1323707983

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6721&d=1323707978

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6714&d=1323707972

[RM1SepEx]

I'll have to see how this compares to my earlier attempts, looks comparable at first glance.

I have no idea how FFR will decide to construct the floor, a floor which will have to support an adjustable seat on street models. My Template-3 allowed for 2" of structure, assumed 1-1/2" steel tube supporting an inlaid tube flush with bottom side frame, and 1/2" or 1/4" of perhaps honeycomb panel for a flush aerodynamic under-belly of car. If they use steel angles in lieu of tubes for seat support for the rails, then it could be lower, right? Heck, now that I think about it, a simple steel plate about 24"x24" under each person welded to the tubes would do, not sure about the weight though.

For reference the Lotus Eagle/Evora drawing showed a single line, maybe a composite, or a sheet metal, I don't know for sure. The Boxster was about 4 inches in floor depth, I made Template-3 at half that. In any case reusing the stock Subie seats should help hold costs down, and those have a fairly upright and elevated seating position. I don't have enough experience in this area to predict the final outcome, just too many variables.



Was catching up on threads... found this interesting, If I understand the layout correctly, I think these assumptions take up too much space.

I've found that if the rails are relatively close to the tubes running the length of the car and you have a center piece of tubing you simply bond and rivet .050 -.060 aluminum as the floor and just weld 1/8 " thick tabs with the seat rail holes in them to the 1.5" square tubes, flush with the bottom, sitting on top of the aluminum. Some prefer a sheet of more resilent steel under your butt for safety. I think that is how the GTM does it, a sheet of steel...

This is how many Seven clones are made. In my reverse trike I did this, the tabs are 1 1/2 inches sq. 1/8 " steel, and have seat rails that are only about 3/4 of an inch thick. Purchased my seats and rails from Cerullo http://www.cerullo.com/sportsSeats.html in CA. The entire assembly leaves the bottom of the seat about 1 inch above the lowest portion of the chassis, the flat floor panel. Use a very thin bottom on the seat (perhaps that Aeron stuff from office chairs) and you could really maximum headroom for a "wookie". At 5'8" that's not one of my problems, I can't see very well out of the F5 GTM Demo!

[kach22i]

I think that is how the GTM does it, a sheet of steel...
Great information, this is one of the ways I attempted to describe how it could be done. Nice level of detail and clear examples - good stuff.

This type of design only accounts for sheer, that is to say the front to back forces experienced upon rapid acceleration/deceleration.

If I'm not mistaken there can be large moment forces throwing any body of mass upward (people strapped to seats, and the engine) in the event of an accident. In the old Ralph Nader book "Unsafe at any speed" he describes this in the documented seat rail failures of rear engined VW Beetles. People were ejected from cars while still strapped to their seats because of weak seat rails.

For a Kit Car already on the "edge", I'm sure doing what other designs already follow will be fine.

[kach22i]

Added a bunch of images from JAE and Hiryu. Click here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160) to see all of them and I hope to get some more designs posted during the week.
I like that someone else did a clay car.

Thebeerbaron and myself now makes three clay cars that I know of.

[JAE]

I like that someone else did a clay car.

Thebeerbaron and myself now makes three clay cars that I know of.

I actually enjoyed making the clay model. It has a wood foundation based on the 1/12th scale template. most of the time was taken up by loading the photos of the model into PowerPoint and adding color and detail (not the best program for this, but thats all I had). I would like to thank Mad Dod for posting the pictures.

[tjojohnson]

VERY rough. I think you might like it if you overlook my ugly drawing skills....:roll eyes:
6847
Thank you.;)

[kach22i]

VERY rough. I think you might like it if you overlook my ugly drawing skills....:roll eyes:
Can you trace?

Can you do your own mark-ups?

Can you modify and or change an existing design?

Please see post #309
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2180-Vantage-Design-Project/page8

[Niburu]

how does it stand up to the template Kach?

[kach22i]

how does it stand up to the template Kach?
Not well; with wheels 24" high you can visually double the height to get a 48" at roof peak car.

I think his car is about 36" high, and that is just the start of the problems.

About all I can get out of this doodle is an idea of headlight shape, and a concept of flat glass planes. Maybe the drawing "tricks, tools and methods" I posted will help him with his expression of form.

There were "drawing templates", working out the ortho views first (side, front, back, top), then trying a perspective is highly recommend (by me).

If all else fails you can carve up a bar of soap, or mix flour with water and get a workable dough, or just buy a few slabs of clay and get working.

I guess you could also carve up rigid foam then cover it in clay, that's what I do when I feel inspired. The nice part about working up a model first is you can change your mind as you go along. You also end up with an object which can be photoed. The photo can be printed out and traced over for a 3D drawing. The drawing can be colored or tone added for B&W artwork.

[olpro]

I think drawing well is integral to designing. The most talented designers always draw extremely well - it is just part of being able to visualize a design.
On the other hand, anyone can learn to draw if they are willing to work at it. I would recommend the Betty Edward’s books (“Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain” is the main one). I have seen people who never drew before learn to do it with amazing results using her methods.
One of her later books covers drawing things from the imagination rather than just drawing what is in front of you. This is the very essence of creative design. Otherwise you are just recreating things you have already seen, perhaps reassembling them differently at best. If you can't draw it, you really can't conceive it mentally.

[mekeys]

68626863

These two pictures are from some early threads..These look somewhat like Rodney O's...I like this design a lot..I think this should have been one of the judges choices..

Mel