Phase I: Planning - The first set of (many) questions

[Traveller]

Quick background: I have been thinking about building a roadster for many years, even to the point when, about 20 years ago, I started accumulating parts / rebuilt a 302 and was about to pull the trigger on a kit order when kid #3 came along and the project got shelved. I ultimately sold off the parts and delayed the dream indefinitely as my time and money was consumed with the kiddos. But NOW, the last one leaves for college in the fall, and my oldest promised to get his ultralight project out of my third garage stall by the end of the summer. In other words, now is the time!

I've been scouring the forum and starting to plan out my build. I plan to go with the complete kit with a coyote engine.

While starting to rough out the details, I have several questions that I have not found clear answers by searching the forums, or that I would appreciate the feedback of the community:


1) Kit pickup vs. delivery: I understand that FFR now charges MA sales tax if you pickup the kit yourself. I see on the Michigan vehicle registration page that one must pay sales tax when you title the vehicle unless "it was paid at time of purchase". Anyone from MI (Paul...) have experience with this? Will I get a credit for tax paid to MA and therefore not be taxed again in MI?

2) MI Registration: I reviewed the requirements to register assembled vehicles in Michigan and see no mention of catalytic converters. Are cats required in MI for a roadster? No mention on the TR-54 checklist form from the state that I could see.

3) Complete Kit Ordering: There are a few things that I may upgrade from the complete kit, for example GAS-N sidepipes and headers. Does FFR allow exclusions from the complete kit order and provide credits for those exclusions (Yes I will be asking them, just curious what experience people may have had).

4) Coyote: Any significant installation differences / challenges with the gen 2 vs. gen 3 Coyote? I realize you get more power with the gen 3 for a bit more cost, but that isnt worth it to me as the gen 2 seems to provide more than enough power for a street cruiser. Just curious if one is notably easier than the other to install or maintain.

5) Seats: I love the look of the leather roadster seats and have seen conflicting info on this. I am 6'2" and have seen some mention that the vintage low backs would be better for leg room. At what height does the low-back vintage seats really matter?

6) Power Steering: I was going to go old-school and stick with manual steering, thinking I'm strong and remember the days of manual steering at parking lot speeds not being a big deal, but then I saw a few posts that indicated PS makes a big difference in smoothness at cruising speeds and it is stupid not to get it. Thoughts?

7) Sale: I see the current summer sale is still going with $3k in options - is this a good deal or are there better sales typically throughout the year?

Well - that's it for now. Sorry that my first post is a brain-dump of questions, but I am very excited to get going and trying to refine my overall plan so I can get the kit ordered.

- Jason

[KDubU]

I can reply to #3 and 6.

3 - yes you can. I did not want the FF pipes and they credited those. Went with GasN and they are great.

6 - PS is a good option and fairly easy. The only thing is make sure you get the right connectors from the hoses to the rack otherwise expect leaks.

[skidd]

My contribution:

5: I'm 6'0", and while the low backs are nice, they were too tall for me, and lacked side bolstering. I had them mounted right to the floor with a slight angle back, and my eye line was only just below the top of the windshield. I could see fine really, but it always annoyed me how near the top of the windshield my vision was. That, and the lack of "hold" on hard corners wasn't great either. I switched out for Kirkey LowBacks. Added a single layer of 1" foam, and love it. Eye line is much better now. A bit stiff on hard bumps now though.. but.. IMO worth it. I'm contemplating putting softer rear springs to soften the ride, but that's a different conversation.

6: PS was easy to add (already had a PS pump on my motor) and is pretty nice to drive. Actually, I need to do the cut-spring mod in my pump as it's too light. I can't comment if it was "worth it", but I don't regret it.

[Traveller]

Thank you, Kyle.

[Ponymedic]

1. I picked up my kit this Feb and did not pay sales tax. I am assuming I will pay when I reg in NY
3. I deleted the sidepipes to go with Gas-N (love them ...Thanks Georgie who delivered to my house) and FF credited me $200

[TMartinLVNV]

What is this summer sale you are referring to? I don't see anything on their webpage.

Terry

[edwardb]

My contributions:

1. I've only done one factory pickup. That was in 2015, and there wasn't any MA sales tax collected. The announcement about collecting MA tax was sometime after that. Now it seems they may not be again. Best to ask Factory Five to be sure. Many states have a reciprocal tax agreement with other states, but I've never checked MA and MI because it never came up for me. Hopefully Michigan SOS could answer the question. Not a deal breaker, but last I checked MA was 6.5% and MI is 6%. No credit for that.

2. No catalytic converters required for MI assembled vehicles. What you see on the TR-54 is the complete list. With that form completed, the SOS office won't ask anything else about the car. They only want to see receipts, the certificate of origin, and taxes paid. Then the title application is sent to Lansing.

3. Factory Five seems to be a little more flexible about giving credit for unwanted parts than they used to be. Just one comment though. Sometimes the amount credited is quite low, and you could sell the NIB parts for more. Maybe you don't want to bother, but something to think about probably only for bigger ticket items. Example: I knew I wasn't going to use the standard Roadster seats in my Coupe build and also knew I'd be buying my seats elsewhere. But I did want them for initial fitting and mock-up. Since they were essentially unused, sold as new for more than I would have gotten credit for.

4. I've installed both. My Gen 2 has 5,000+ miles on it and has been great. The Gen 3 is in my Coupe build and still in process. There are a couple of differences. I talk about them in my Coupe build thread, link in my sig line. Main items: (1) The Gen 3 has a different oil pump and requires a different pickup tube than the Gen 2. At the time I did mine, nothing was available including from Moroso which is the most common retrofit pan. Maybe they have something by now. (2) The Gen 3 has a different flywheel due to the new dual disk clutch. Not usable with currently available bell housings and commonly used transmissions, e.g. TKO and T-56. It's an easy fix to remove the supplied flywheel and install the previous version plus pilot bearing. (3) The Gen 3 engine cover won't fit without modification and most including me don't like the look of it. I've come up with a mod that I'm happy with. But did require some fabrication. The Gen 3 Control Pack has some differences, but I wouldn't consider it any more difficult than the Gen 2. The Gen 3 is a pretty big upgrade both in power (by all accounts it's very conservatively rated) and technically. I'm happy I worked through the issues and looking forward to getting it on the road. I wouldn't dismiss it. Also not sure of your timing, but the Gen 2's aren't going to be around forever. They are no longer in production and when the current supply is gone that's it. Have no idea how long that might be though. One other comment about a Coyote build: Do the long tube headers. They're bullet proof and give the best performance. Factory Five sells them. Also available from Gas-N and GP Headers. Your choice. Don't mess with J-pipes.

6. I'm a huge power steering advocate. Have had both and there's no comparison. The KRC setup which Factory Five offers for the Coyote, or you can buy it yourself directly (same thing), isn't cheap but it's first class and fits the Coyote perfectly. Strongly recommend you make that part of your build plan. You won't regret it.

Hope that helps. Where are you located in Michigan? You're more than welcome to drop over to my corner of the world any time. Finished Mk4 and Gen 3 Coupe build in the garage.

[cfriedman67]

I'm 6' 2" and strongly recommend the Kirkeys. I even had a seat builder massage the frame and padding of the FFR leather seats and still not enough room.

[Traveller]

What is this summer sale you are referring to? I don't see anything on their webpage.

Terry

I saw it here:
https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-new/factory-five-summer-sale-2019/

It doesn't specifically list an end date, but it's still up and visible from the home page of the website.

[Traveller]

5: I'm 6'0", and while the low backs are nice, they were too tall for me, and lacked side bolstering. I had them mounted right to the floor with a slight angle back, and my eye line was only just below the top of the windshield. I could see fine really, but it always annoyed me how near the top of the windshield my vision was. That, and the lack of "hold" on hard corners wasn't great either. I switched out for Kirkey LowBacks. Added a single layer of 1" foam, and love it. Eye line is much better now. A bit stiff on hard bumps now though.. but.. IMO worth it. I'm contemplating putting softer rear springs to soften the ride, but that's a different conversation.



I'm 6' 2" and strongly recommend the Kirkeys. I even had a seat builder massage the frame and padding of the FFR leather seats and still not enough room.

Thank you both! I dug into a few of the build threads that talk about the Kirkeys - definitely appears to be the way to go. Are the "low back vintage seats" on the FFR order page the same as the Kirkeys? They appear to be the same, but don't specifically mention the manufacturer (that I saw).

[Traveller]

My contributions:

1. I've only done one factory pickup. That was in 2015, and there wasn't any MA sales tax collected. The announcement about collecting MA tax was sometime after that. Now it seems they may not be again. Best to ask Factory Five to be sure. Many states have a reciprocal tax agreement with other states, but I've never checked MA and MI because it never came up for me. Hopefully Michigan SOS could answer the question. Not a deal breaker, but last I checked MA was 6.5% and MI is 6%. No credit for that.

2. No catalytic converters required for MI assembled vehicles. What you see on the TR-54 is the complete list. With that form completed, the SOS office won't ask anything else about the car. They only want to see receipts, the certificate of origin, and taxes paid. Then the title application is sent to Lansing.

3. Factory Five seems to be a little more flexible about giving credit for unwanted parts than they used to be. Just one comment though. Sometimes the amount credited is quite low, and you could sell the NIB parts for more. Maybe you don't want to bother, but something to think about probably only for bigger ticket items. Example: I knew I wasn't going to use the standard Roadster seats in my Coupe build and also knew I'd be buying my seats elsewhere. But I did want them for initial fitting and mock-up. Since they were essentially unused, sold as new for more than I would have gotten credit for.

4. I've installed both. My Gen 2 has 5,000+ miles on it and has been great. The Gen 3 is in my Coupe build and still in process. There are a couple of differences. I talk about them in my Coupe build thread, link in my sig line. Main items: (1) The Gen 3 has a different oil pump and requires a different pickup tube than the Gen 2. At the time I did mine, nothing was available including from Moroso which is the most common retrofit pan. Maybe they have something by now. (2) The Gen 3 has a different flywheel due to the new dual disk clutch. Not usable with currently available bell housings are commonly used transmissions, e.g. TKO and T-56. It's an easy fix to remove the supplied flywheel and install the previous version plus pilot bearing. (3) The Gen 3 engine cover won't fit without modification and most including me don't like the look of it. I've come up with a mod that I'm happy with. But did require some fabrication. The Gen 3 Control Pack has some differences, but I wouldn't consider it any more difficult than the Gen 2. The Gen 3 is a pretty big upgrade both in power (by all accounts it's very conservatively rated) and technically. I'm happy I worked through the issues and looking forward to getting it on the road. I wouldn't dismiss it. Also not sure of your timing, but the Gen 2's aren't going to be around forever. They are no longer in production and when the current supply is gone that's it. Have no idea how long that might be though. One other comment about a Coyote build: Do the long tube headers. They're bullet proof and give the best performance. Factory Five sells them. Also available from Gas-N and GP Headers. Your choice. Don't mess with J-pipes.

6. I'm a huge power steering advocate. Have had both and there's no comparison. The KRC setup which Factory Five offers for the Coyote, or you can buy it yourself directly (same thing), isn't cheap but it's first class and fits the Coyote perfectly. Strongly recommend you make that part of your build plan. You won't regret it.

Hope that helps. Where are you located in Michigan? You're move than welcome to drop over to my corner of the world any time. Finished Mk4 and Gen 3 Coupe build in the garage.


Paul - thank you for sharing your experience / insights. Your Anniversary Roadster build thread has been receiving a LOT of reading time by me over the past few weeks. Awesome work.

I am in the Grand Rapids area but have family on the East side of the state. I will take you up on your offer and try to connect when I get a trip that way scheduled. It would be a real treat to see your car(s) in person!

[Traveller]

1. I picked up my kit this Feb and did not pay sales tax. I am assuming I will pay when I reg in NY
3. I deleted the sidepipes to go with Gas-N (love them ...Thanks Georgie who delivered to my house) and FF credited me $200

Thank you, Ponymedic. Good to hear about the credit given, although that's lower than expected. Maybe best to just receive them and sell later as edwardb suggested.

[Ponymedic]

Thank you, Ponymedic. Good to hear about the credit given, although that's lower than expected. Maybe best to just receive them and sell later as edwardb suggested.

Agreed i was a little disapointed with the credit in hindsight should have just bought them and change out if i wanted the roar

[TMartinLVNV]

Thanks. Looks like I put in my order 2 days before that sale started. I emailed my contact at FFR and an keeping my fingers crossed that they will honor it in my case.

I purchased the 17" Kirkey seats. I've been told by others here on this forum that the low back vintage seats are the Kirkey 16" (width) seats. I'm 6'6" tall at 275 lbs and can set in the 17" ones comfortably. I deleted the seats on my FFR order and received a $220 credit. I ordered the 17" seats on Amazon.

Terry

[silver_pilate]

I did the big and tall leather seats from FFR. I'm 6'2" and 240, and I fit fine with the seats mounted on Breeze wedges all the way back. Not as much room as my F250, obviously, but it works for me.

I also deleted the side pipes and headers from the initial order from FFR, and I have the Gas-N pipes and 4 into 4 headers. You will love them.

--Nathan

[CraigS]

I am w/ EdwardB on PS. I would not even consider manual steering. PS reduces effort which is it's primary benefit. But it also allows you to run any amount of caster you want. Usually 6-7 deg which helps the car track straighter. I also think there is a safety aspect to it. A kid running out in front of you-could you make a correction quickly enough w/ manual steering? Don't even hesitate- get the kirley or the vintage seats

[Jeff Kleiner]

I am w/ EdwardB on PS. I would not even consider manual steering. PS reduces effort which is it's primary benefit. But it also allows you to run any amount of caster you want. Usually 6-7 deg which helps the car track straighter....

Yes, yes, yes!

Jeff

[Traveller]

I am w/ EdwardB on PS. I would not even consider manual steering. PS reduces effort which is it's primary benefit. But it also allows you to run any amount of caster you want. Usually 6-7 deg which helps the car track straighter. I also think there is a safety aspect to it. A kid running out in front of you-could you make a correction quickly enough w/ manual steering? Don't even hesitate- get the kirley or the vintage seats


Yes, yes, yes!

Jeff

I'm convinced. Power steering it will be. Thank you!