AAAAAAAARG so sick of set backs

[John Dol]

Well last year I had some engine issue where the car would not stay running. I did a complete reset of the Fast EZ hand held and then cleaned the spark plugs and O2 sensor. Once I started it up I adjusted the adjustment screw to allow for more air to come in. Then she idled good.
Last night I wanted to see how the lights work in the dark so started it up and it was idling at 2,000RPM. Got the Allan wrench out and adjusted once more to get back to about 1,000RPM.
engine was running nicely for a while so I got in, put it in reverse and backed out of the garage.
Halfway the drive way it just stalled out of no where again.:frown2:
Let it cool down, pulled all the plugs, cleaned them and put them back in.

Adjusted the adjustment screw to allow more air again and she started up so I could get it back in the garage (it's now after 10pm)

This morning it started up again without issue so I pulled it outside to let it idle for a good long while. After adjusting a little more she ran nicely at 1,000RPM at idle.

Still the exhaust is very black and is leaving a mark on the driveway.
As I was filming that to get opinions from you guys I wanted to rev it a bit but you can hear it just stalls out again. Now the car had been idling for probably a good 30 min no problem.

Then when trying to re-start the car just doesn't want to catch. You can also see smoke coming from the breather cap while trying to start.


Then when you pull a spark plug they look like the attached pic.


What in the Sam is going on?

https://youtu.be/cDNLbWi7nH4

https://youtu.be/J5JzoBfJcXI

[GoDadGo]

John,

Man that thing is dumping some serious fuel.

Does the FAST-EFI System hold it's flash (program) should the power source get disrupted?
If it doesn't then did you disconnect the battery lately or could this possibly a bad constant hot and/or grounding issue?
I'd contact the manufacturer if you can't locate a forum member who is an expert on your system.

Good Luck & Hope You Get The Answers You're Looking For!

Steve

[RickP]

Where exactly do you have the 02 sensor installed? I ask because I had the exact same symptoms as you are having and it all came down to where the sensor was located.

[Gromit]

With it running that rich you might want to watch out that you are not diluting the engine oil. raw gas will leak past the rings and reduce the engine oil lubrication... Ask me how I know.. ok don't I'll tell you. One of my very early home garage engine rebuilds included a used improperly rebuilt carb. after shutdown it dripped just a couple of drops of fuel from the boosters.. well over a short time all that gas diluted the oil and spun a bearing.

Bottom line get that mixture fixed before it causes other problems.

Chris O aka Gromit

[Papa]

My FAST acted the same way to the point of fouling several plugs. I fought with it and after getting nowhere, BPE sent me a Holley Sniper to swap it out with. I'm very happy with the Sniper, and never found out what the issue was with the FAST XFI Street.

[John Dol]

Where exactly do you have the 02 sensor installed? I ask because I had the exact same symptoms as you are having and it all came down to where the sensor was located.

108063

Passenger side header

[wallace18]

John that is a poor location for the O2 sensor. It needs to be with the bottom of the sensor facing between 9 and 3. That is with 12 being straight up. Also check if the sensor data is correct. I had the same problem and it ended up being a bad o2 sensor telling the computer the engine was lean when it was really over rich. Good luck.

[John Dol]

John,

Man that thing is dumping some serious fuel.

Does the FAST-EFI System hold it's flash (program) should the power source get disrupted?
If it doesn't then did you disconnect the battery lately or could this possibly a bad constant hot and/or grounding issue?
I'd contact the manufacturer if you can't locate a forum member who is an expert on your system.

Good Luck & Hope You Get The Answers You're Looking For!

Steve

Steve,

I assume it would. As I was working on the car I tended to remove the negative from the battery to save it. Then when I want/need to run the car I'll re-connect the battery.
Lately I've been keeping it in place and just keep the trickle charger on it. I know I need a new battery but once it runs it should stay running no problem.
I agree it dumps too much fuel but not sure how to adjust/regulate that.


Thanks,

John

[John Dol]

John that is a poor location for the O2 sensor. It needs to be with the bottom of the sensor facing between 9 and 3. That is with 12 being straight up. Also check if the sensor data is correct. I had the same problem and it ended up being a bad o2 sensor telling the computer the engine was lean when it was really over rich. Good luck.

It is located on the down side of the 2 in 1 collector. So it seems that it is between 9 and 3, but I think what your saying is that it should be on top?
I'm just going to get anew O2 sensor because the unit says its good, but what does it know!!:rolleyes:

[John Dol]

With it running that rich you might want to watch out that you are not diluting the engine oil. raw gas will leak past the rings and reduce the engine oil lubrication... Ask me how I know.. ok don't I'll tell you. One of my very early home garage engine rebuilds included a used improperly rebuilt carb. after shutdown it dripped just a couple of drops of fuel from the boosters.. well over a short time all that gas diluted the oil and spun a bearing.

Bottom line get that mixture fixed before it causes other problems.

Chris O aka Gromit

Yikes, don't want that!!
Thanks for the warning

John

[RickP]

John -

your not going to want to hear this but I agree with Wallace18 in that you have the 02 sensor in a bad spot. If you can somehow locate the sensor to sample 4 cylinders instead of 2, all the better. I found one pic on your photo bucket that shows right where you have your bung which is marginal at best. Your sampling 2 cylinders (partially).

I am not familiar enough with the coupe to advise where to locate the sensor but I highly suggest moving the sensor to the far most aft location beyond the collector. I had the very same issues as you are having with my sensor located in the header tube (albeit not laterally aligned such as yours) on my Roadster. Car ran like dirt! I ended up (on advice from FiTech) to move the sensor to the side pipe after the collector. It was a major pain in the butt to do but the payoff was a smooth running engine that doesn't run rich. Night and day difference. Your motor is running "scary rich" and I would not run it again until you rectify the issue. As Wallace18 advises, look at the sensor data first to see if your O2 sensor is ok or not. And I know your EZ is different than my FiTech but the concept is the same. Your sensor needs to send back information to the ECU as accurately as possible. I suspect your simply not reading enough cylinders OR your reading back pressure from one cylinder while trying to sample the other. Move the bung 2 more inches closer to the side pipe from where you have your bung and you would have a solid 2 cylinder sample. 4 is optimal.


If these symptoms sound familiar, zone in on the 02 sensor:


1. Engine initially fired right up on base tune.
2. Idles rich (black smoke from side pipes, either one or both)
3. Advancing/retarding timing makes no difference.
4. Engine runs at idle then stalls, with no ability to restart.
5. EZ is getting fuel
6. EZ is sending spark
7. Reverting back to a base tune repeats all the symptoms above. One step forward, two steps back.



RickP

[Houdini]

after you find the problem throw those plugs they are ruined nowdays when fouled out

[Joel Hauser]

any chance you could have a vacuum leak? That can cause the O2 sensor to compensate by enriching the mixture.

[Marv]

Had to recam my Ford long block to make my FAST system work in my 33HR to little vacuum for the system to work with the 303e ? Cam. Plugs looked just like yours. Switched to a Holley sniper on my 35 truck and it’s better but not great. Idle surge issue but not fouling plugs.

[John Dol]

108085

Well I moved the O2 sensor and got a brand new sensor too just in case ($185 later...).
Started the engine and it ran really nice, just too high in RPM again. No black smoke from any of the pipes. Started down adjusting and she ran nice at 1000RPM. Then when revving stalled again.

No re-start possible.

Cleaned all plugs, charged the new battery up a little more. Started again and now all pipes but the top driver are clean. That one though is blowing white smoke. Engine runs raspy too when revving. Just ran it enough to get it back into the garage.

I don't understand why it ran so nice and then reverted back to crap!

John

[RickP]

John. What are you adjusting to bring the idle down?

[John Dol]

There's an adjustment screw on the side of the housing that opens or closes the butterfly valves inside.

[RickP]

Ok, so your Messing with the idle adjustment. I’m going to assume you have your idle RPM set yet it’s still idles higher than what you prefer when the car is warm. Yes?

[John Dol]

Correct
idling at 2,000RPM, So I turn it down to 1,000 and it start to bog. In the unit its set for 900.
Should I increase that?

[John Dol]

Had to recam my Ford long block to make my FAST system work in my 33HR to little vacuum for the system to work with the 303e ? Cam. Plugs looked just like yours. Switched to a Holley sniper on my 35 truck and it’s better but not great. Idle surge issue but not fouling plugs.

I have an Edelbrock top end kit with a different cam. Not sure though if the vacuum is enough with that one

[John Dol]

any chance you could have a vacuum leak? That can cause the O2 sensor to compensate by enriching the mixture.


Not sure where to begin to check on that

[RickP]

Correct
idling at 2,000RPM, So I turn it down to 1,000 and it start to bog. In the unit its set for 900.
Should I increase that?

How long are you giving it to wam up (it will idle high naturally for a bit) before it settles back to your set idle RPM. Sometimes forcing these things to run how you want them too right out of the gate only complicates matters. They do best by learning on their own to be honest. I do think you have resolved your rich run problem though. Do you happen to have fuel gauge inline with the EZ? Could you simply be starving for fuel at this point. Also make sure you have your vacuum lines where they are supposed to go. And 900 rpm is a solid place to be at this point.

[RickP]

I’ll also mention. There was a recent thread where EFI users were having issues with ignition signal interference. Even states that in the FAST EZ installation instructions.

[John Dol]

Maybe I'll get some new sparkplugs tomorrow.
Do you think the white smoke from only one side pipe is a concern?

Yeah maybe I have to be more patient and just drive it and see how it learns.

[RickP]

Is the white smoke consistently pouring out the pipe and does it smell sweet? Like a candy store kinda sweet?

[John Dol]

Don’t know about the smell but it is constant
I’ll have to see tomorrow after I get the new spark plugs in

[Joel Hauser]

I did a cigar smoke vacuum leak test on mine using a harbor freight hand held transfer pump. In my case, it revealed a crack in the underside of my plastic intake manifold.

this is the pump I used https://www.harborfreight.com/multi-use-transfer-pump-63144.html

Here is a 4 minute YouTube video on how to do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOhl4r0GSiE

[John Dol]

I did a cigar smoke vacuum leak test on mine using a harbor freight hand held transfer pump. In my case, it revealed a crack in the underside of my plastic intake manifold.

this is the pump I used https://www.harborfreight.com/multi-use-transfer-pump-63144.html

Here is a 4 minute YouTube video on how to do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOhl4r0GSiE

Thanks Joel, about to start the car with the new plugs. Fingers crossed....

[John Dol]

New plugs, new battery, new tune and she started right up settled fairly quickly to 900-1000 RPM too. NO SMOKE, yahoo!
Back her out of the garage to keep the exhaust outside. Then I hear this sucking noise under the hood. When revving you hear popping from the engine/exhaust and then it died again:mad:
For full disclosure the timing has not been set properly for this engine.

Idea's?

Thanks,

John

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apuFg5zfFbI&feature=youtu.be

[Papa]

New plugs, new battery, new tune and she started right up settled fairly quickly to 900-1000 RPM too. NO SMOKE, yahoo!
Back her out of the garage to keep the exhaust outside. Then I hear this sucking noise under the hood. When revving you hear popping from the engine/exhaust and then it died again:mad:
For full disclosure the timing has not been set properly for this engine.

Idea's?

Thanks,

John

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apuFg5zfFbI&feature=youtu.be

Vacuum leak! Check all the ports on the intake and that the intake is fully seated and sealed.

[John Dol]

No vacuum leak.. As it appears its the closing of the butterfly inside the throttle body.
Idles really nice but if you want to rev it, it starts to pop and wants to stall. Which happened as I was trying to get it back into the garage so now I have to wait for cool down again.


https://youtu.be/XHWpspVorjs

[John Dol]

Fast EZ tech said idle adjustment was to far open causing the sucking sound.
Have a few thing to look at for values to see if we can get within range

[David Williamson]

got to get the timing set, it will make a big difference if it is way off.
David W

[RickP]

Fast EZ tech said idle adjustment was to far open causing the sucking sound.
Have a few thing to look at for values to see if we can get within range


Your close John. Stick with it and it will settle in. Mucking with the idle adjustment screw...... well …... screws things up. Bogging when under revved throttle can be resolved by adding/removing fuel. In Fitech world, its under ACEL/DECEL settings. But like I said before, these things want to build their own fuel map based on learning. And the only way to do that is to allow it to learn.


RickP

[John Dol]

Back to running fairly clean at idle but still bogs and eventually stalls. Does that mean its not getting enough fuel then? There is a set point to influence the fuel to air mixture I believe.

John

[John Dol]

got to get the timing set, it will make a big difference if it is way off.
David W

David,

I bought an after market billet pointer but it doesn't seem to fit. Will probably go and get the standard fox pointer to be able to do that.

Now You tube learn me how to do that!

John

[John Dol]

When it does bog down and stalls and I look in the throttle body its soaked in fuel.

[RickP]

When it does bog down and stalls and I look in the throttle body its soaked in fuel.

Does the Fast EZ have a built in fuel regulator? How much fuel are you delivering to the unit?

[John Dol]

Yes it does, and it asks for a minimum of 43 PSI, then you also set the value that's regulated on the regulator in the hand held to match.

[RickP]

just seems your getting TOO MUCH fuel when the FAST is asking for it. OR, it doesn't know what to do with it. Do you have a return line and is the pump in the tank?

[John Dol]

I talked to tech support again this morning. Have a few things to look for in the dash boards, and then some ways top change fuel set point to alter the behavior of the injectors.
I do have a return line and an in tank pump. Th.e O2 correction % is way to high currently
I also learned that you can override a flooded bowl by keeping the pedal down all the way. This over rides the injectors and will clean it out for a restart. Before I was blowing the bowl out with compressed air to speed things along.
I got the instructions out and I'm going through them step by step on Monday to make sure everything is as it should. Hopefully this will help getting a better result by the end of it.
Also have to buy the timing pointer and set the timing. That should help too.
Tech did say that it would work better if the O2 sensor could read 4 cylinders which in the Coupe is impossible unfortunately.

John

[CraigS]

I wouldn't waste anymore time on the efi til you get the timing set. Timing is always the first thing to get right in any tuning scenario. And since you are getting a new pointer you need to check it's calibration to be sure TDC is actually TDC. Do that w/ a rod of some type (I use a piece of 1/4 inch wood dowel) going into the #1 plug hole. The passenger side front most plug. Search youtube for instructions. Once timing is correct, be careful about adjusting the idle speed. I am not familiar w/ your efi but a couple of times it seems as if you adjusted it down while the engine was still cold. Generally speaking idle speed would be adjusted at the throttle plate when warm and the efi would have another system to provide a higher idle when cold.

[GoDadGo]

John,

Do you have any friends with an old Holley or Edelbrock carb lying around that you might be able to borrow?
It would need to be regulated down to about 6-7 PSI, but you might be able to get your timing spot on before going back to sort out the F/I system.
Just a thought from the Peanut Gallery located down here in the swamp.

Steve

[Jeff Kleiner]

I'm with Craig; if you haven't properly set the timing you're just chasing your tail. Flooding a fresh engine repeatedly will assure that it is short lived.

Good luck,
Jeff

[John Dol]

So what timing do I set it too?
My cam info is:

Intake duration 224 degree
Exhaust duration 234 degree
Intake lift 496"
Exhaust lift 520"
Lobe separation 112 degree
Vacuum 11"


Thanks,


John

[GoDadGo]

So what timing do I set it too?
My cam info is:

Intake duration 224 degree
Exhaust duration 234 degree
Intake lift 496"
Exhaust lift 520"
Lobe separation 112 degree
Vacuum 11"


Thanks,


John

On similarly cammed SBC, some place between 10-14 is good for the initial set up with the the vacuum advance disconnected if you have one.
I'm assuming it would be in the same for a SBF; however, like Jeff said "Flooding a fresh engine repeatedly will assure that it is short lived."
I wish I could help more, but I'm not a fan of after market Fuel Injection simply because I've never messed with them in any shape or form.

[John Dol]

Thanks gents sound advice as usual!

John

[Jeff Kleiner]

Yep, 10 before is a good starting point.

Jeff

[John Dol]

Just for further clarification, the engine was timed by Mark Dougherty without the pointer so just by ear, so it wasn't completely blind.
I ordered a TDC indicator and stop so I can get proper TDC. Also got a timing tape from MSD. Won't be here till Thursday so the wait is on.

[John Dol]

108298
108299

Wish I had done this when Mark was there many moons ago. Maybe I wouldn't be having these issue now, but alas I got my timing indicator installed today. Had to cut of the square block for the indicator to fit. But now its adjustable for when I find TDC some time this week.


John

[John Dol]

Talked to tech support again today, and their reply was that the self tuning systems have a hard time with the short exhaust system drawing in false air. Will never work according to him.
Recommended changing the brain to a XFI street computer that then has to be tuned with a laptop. $630 later...

So continue with this or invest in a carb (about similar investments), that is the question!


:confused:

John

[Joel Hauser]

I feel for you; it took me over a year to finally get my 1996 4.6L SOHC engine to run correctly. And it's still not perfect.
Call me skeptical, or just ignorant, but I can't believe that running side pipes could cause all this trouble. Could you test the theory by stuffing some baffles into the exhaust pipes or header, creating more back pressure? I actually installed spiral baffles in my side pipes to soften the exhaust bark. I think it sounds much better.
Good luck

[GoDadGo]

Talked to tech support again today, and their reply was that the self tuning systems have a hard time with the short exhaust system drawing in false air. Will never work according to him.
Recommended changing the brain to a XFI street computer that then has to be tuned with a laptop. $630 later...

So continue with this or invest in a carb (about similar investments), that is the question!


:confused:

John

Tough Decision For Sure!

The problem is nobody can tell you for sure if you will be throwing good money after bad.

For What It Is Worth In My Line Of Work Your First Lost Is Your Best Or Smallest Loss!