Safety Mod’s

[CFranks]

I think I’m like several people who recently parted with $150 thanks to the driveshaft loop thread. Given I never heard of a driveshaft loop before yesterday, I wonder if there are any other key safety mods us new builders should be considering?

[phileas_fogg]

Separate, independent reservoirs for the front & rear brakes.

I don't know if things have changed, but when I bought my complete kit in 2015, F5 provided only a single reservoir and the instructions showed how to "T" the hoses to feed each brake cylinder. This means a failure in one brake system leads to complete loss of brakes. With independent reservoirs, at least you'll have half a system to get you stopped.


John

[Dave Howard]

Either a neutral safety switch or a clutch safety switch...or both. Prevents you from starting the car in gear and having it take off.

[GoDadGo]

Consider adding an adjustable rev-limiter because these cars can spin the heck out of the tires if you have a peppy motor under the hood. You can set things low as you learn how to drive your car. Also, over revving can easily land you in a ditch or possibly throw the rods out the bottom if things get out of hand with your right foot.

[mike223]

I think I’m like several people who recently parted with $150 thanks to the driveshaft loop thread. Given I never heard of a driveshaft loop before yesterday, I wonder if there are any other key safety mods us new builders should be considering?

You mention the driveshaft loop thread - so I guess you didn't miss the recommendation of at least considering a steel (not cast) flywheel + bellhousing (again, steel, not cast) - too close to knees and major arteries to risk a catastrophic failure.

Consider high back seats (and study to mount them as recommended by the manufacturer / NHRA rulebook / etc) - if anything strikes the back of the car hard (your fault / my fault / nobody's fault), you're simply not going to survive with low back seats - this includes traveling backwards during a spin / loss of control (it can happen).

[RickP]

Separate, independent reservoirs for the front & rear brakes.

I don't know if things have changed, but when I bought my complete kit in 2015, F5 provided only a single reservoir and the instructions showed how to "T" the hoses to feed each brake cylinder. This means a failure in one brake system leads to complete loss of brakes. With independent reservoirs, at least you'll have half a system to get you stopped.


John

This suggestion just happens to be one of several winter projects I am working on. Should have done it when I was building the chassis but what I know now is definitely not what I knew then.

RickP

[1932]

Yes to needing head rest protection if using low back seats, and harness to hold you and seat in place. Roll bars(i have cage) made right and need to not have head hit them!

[Derald Rice]

Kill switch.

Either killing the fuel pump or the ignition, or both. And then put the switch where either the passenger or the driver can reach it while strapped in.

[MisterAdam]

Separate, independent reservoirs for the front & rear brakes.

I don't know if things have changed, but when I bought my complete kit in 2015, F5 provided only a single reservoir and the instructions showed how to "T" the hoses to feed each brake cylinder. This means a failure in one brake system leads to complete loss of brakes. With independent reservoirs, at least you'll have half a system to get you stopped.


John

Not true. The hose to the single reservoir has enough volume so that each master is independent.

[Jeff Kleiner]

It's not a mod but something too many builders skip---the harness 5th point "sub strap". It is sometimes thought that it's purpose is to catch you right in the "you know where" in the event of an impact but that isn't the case in our upright seats. The real purpose is to keep the lap belt across your hips rather than allowing it to rise above the waist. What happens without it is that when you fasten the lap belt then snug the shoulder straps the lap belt comes up, then the shoulders are loose so you pull them and it moves up farther. With the fifth point adjusted correctly all the belts stay where they belong. About those shoulder belts---you're using them aren't you? If not START NOW! EVERY TIME YOU LEAVE THE DRIVEWAY! As my good friend and veteran FFR builder & owner John Phillips said to me about 15 years ago "I looked around the cockpit and didn't see anything I wanted to hit myself in the face with". Smart man! Unfortunately over the years there have been several instances where drivers or passengers have had injuries with even minor fender bender type accidents because they were using only the lap belts. Happened to another good Cobra buddy and his lovely wife a couple of years ago. Thankfully their injuries were minor.

Be safe!

Jeff

[GoDadGo]

We all forgot this, the most important safety feature:

Engage Your Brain Every Time You Get Behind The Wheel!

These cars do something to us all so remember to: Engage Your Brain Before You Do Anything!

PS: It is tougher than you think!

[NAZ]

These cars are home built and neither the design nor the finished product is required to pass destructive testing.

Most of the safety items on my build were required by NHRA but even if I were building a car for the street only I would have added them. As it was, I exceeded the minimum NHRA requirements as being older now and more experienced I have come to realize how quickly you can get into trouble and your chance of survival is dependent on your preparation. Good judgment comes from bad experiences and I’ve had my share of those.

My short list of minimum safety items:

Minimum of three-point restraint system – five-point is significantly better. Simple lap belts are not enough. As a SAR pilot I flew with a former Air Force doctor /mechanical engineer that in the 60’s headed up an Air Force program to develop better restraint systems in aircraft. The learnings from this program migrated to the automotive industry and that is why three-point belts were mandated by the Fed. Discussing his findings made a true believer of me that a lap belt is not nearly enough. And if you drive a roadster you should at least consider what happens to your arms if you should roll it and become unconscious. I’ve seen this enough times to scare me. This is why NHRA requires arm restraints in dragsters, altereds, and other open bodied cars.

Effective roll over protection. “EFFECTIVE” being the operative word here. I’ve been on my top twice and I can’t emphasize too much the violence of a rollover and a single roll bar is not enough margin for me. And with a roll bar or cage you must also have effective padding to prevent your head from being crushed – otherwise, you really haven’t mitigate the risk. The best-designed roll over protection is a system that your head cannot contact but that is sometimes not practical in our little cars.

Drive shaft safety loop. I’ve experienced two drive shaft failures and have seen first hand the destruction this results in – it’s more like an explosion. NHRA requires a safety loop on the front of my car within 6” of the u-joint. I have two loops, one at each end and a containment shield covering the entire length of the driveshaft. Been there; done that – won’t risk a catastrophic injury over a few extra pounds of weight.

If running a clutch I use a scattershield type bellhousing even on the street. Take a look at where you and your passengers’ legs are in relation to the clutch.

Side impact protection. My roll cage is NHRA certified but in addition to the minimum door bar requirement I added extra tubing to strengthen the side impact protection and minimize the chance of a bumper penetrating my door bars.

Dual independent brake system – either dual M/Cs or a single OEM style M/C with dual pistons so that if one system should fail the other provides a way to stop the car. And the M/Cs should be installed so that you have full travel – don’t think that because travel is limited when the system is properly bled that you don’t need the other 75% of travel. Hot boiling fluid, or a slight leak can cause you to need all of the travel and then some as you panic pump that short stroke you created by incorrectly installing the pedal or M/C. In the early 60’s cars and trucks typically had just one system and any failure would result in no brakes. I had this happen once in a VW Bug and I blew through a busy Tee intersection between cross traffic (two 18-wheelers) pulling as hard as I could on the parking brake handle. I finally stopped just before the ditch on the other side.

This is the short list – and what I consider must have for my builds. Your mileage may differ.

[phileas_fogg]

Not true. The hose to the single reservoir has enough volume so that each master is independent.

And what happens if the hose between the reservoir & the cylinders fails? Or, the T-fitting or the fitting at the bottom of the reservoir fails?

Low probability events to be sure, but there's a reason the NTSB required independent front/rear brake systems BEFORE they required seat belts.


John

[CFranks]

Thanks all, great list! Keep ‘em coming. So far from this list I’m adding a kill switch, clutch safety switch, 5th harness point and head rest protection to my build. Also have the loop already on it’s way.

[mike223]

and head rest protection to my build.



I was going to let the head rest comments go, but since that track seems to be picking up steam, here goes:


The back of my Kirkey drag seat is 5.25" in front of the front edge of the Mk4 roll bar.


*Most* of the roll bar installed head rests are too far back and too small to reliably catch your head (not to mention, probably too soft, until the impact suddenly turns that into "too hard" / ran out of padding).

And then there's the area between your shoulder blades and the base of your skull, which gets no support whatsoever from a headrest (your average headrest).


In the end, it's all about (knowledgeably) deciding what risks you're willing to accept.



If anyone has come up with a (neat) presentable way to incorporate something like a Kirkey 99212 support in a Mk4, I'd love to see some pictures.

Incorporated in a way that doesn't present more hazards than benefits.

[Avalanche325]

*Most* of the roll bar installed head rests are too far back and too small to reliably catch your head (not to mention, probably too soft, until the impact suddenly turns that into "too hard" / ran out of padding).


Here is an option to modify the lowback seats. They are headrests designed for a 65 / 66 Mustang. I copied John4337 and did them on mine. The nice part is that they don't look out of place. No one even notices them.

Look down around post #24.

https://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/413801-another-seat-thread.html

I agree with the previous posts. 5 point harness and USE IT, every single time. scatter shield, neutral safety or clutch switch, driveshaft loop, two roll bars.

Here are a couple of my own pet peeves.
1. Put serious tires on your car. A Cobra with anything over 300hp and tires over 300 treadwear is an accident waiting to happen. Tires are the the single most important thing in your suspension system.
2. Learn to handle your car. Do at least 3 autocross events. If you think you have driven your car to the limit on the street, you are mistaken.

[65 Cobra Dude]

Fire suppression system. I put one in all my cars!

Thx,

Henry

[JohnK]

Fire suppression system. I put one in all my cars!

Thx,

Henry

Do you mind providing some details on what you did? Thanks!

[Jeff Kleiner]

...If you think you have driven your car to the limit on the street, you are mistaken.

And if you drive one of these cars anywhere close to the limit on the street you are a fool. No, wait, that was wrong...make that an irresponsible fool.

Jeff

[mike223]

Here is an option to modify the lowback seats. They are headrests designed for a 65 / 66 Mustang. I copied John4337 and did them on mine. The nice part is that they don't look out of place. No one even notices them.

Look down around post #24.

https://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/413801-another-seat-thread.html



That looks great! (and looks like it should function as well)




1. Put serious tires on your car. A Cobra with anything over 300hp and tires over 300 treadwear is an accident waiting to happen. Tires are the the single most important thing in your suspension system.
2. Learn to handle your car. Do at least 3 autocross events. If you think you have driven your car to the limit on the street, you are mistaken.



Agree completely.




No, wait, that was wrong...make that an irresponsible fool.



Agree completely.

[Sdonnel]

Having recently started a build, I noticed some areas on the car that I felt needed improvement. The first thing I did was weld a vertical support between each set of seat belt mounts located in the trunk. It simply goes from the 2x2 tube and is welded to the bottom of the tube across the trunk. I used 3/4" x 1/8" tubing. Much stronger in my opinion, as the horizontal tube will no longer flex by pushing on it. The next area I beefed up was the gap between the seat pans and the forward, lower 2x2" tube. A piece of plate steel on each side, now has both floors protected. When the car is done, I will add 1/4" diamond plate to the lower floor. This will add another layer of protection for our feet as well as allow me to not worry about getting a floor mat stuck under the gas pedal like we saw in London a few years ago.

I agree with every comment made in this thread. Common sense. Please be safe.

Scott

[totem]

Not true. The hose to the single reservoir has enough volume so that each master is independent.

I never tought about that. Let’s check:
. 12in of 5/16 hose volume is 0.9 ci.
. Master stroke 1.12in, 0.75in dia, volume is 0.5 ci.

Hose volume is enough, provided you have enough length between the master and the T. If the T is at the master, as the instructions show, it will not be enough.

[NAZ]

Shouldn't determining how much reserve capacity of brake fluid be based on how many times you think you need to pump the pedal to the floor given a small leak? You can consider that when the pedal is fully retracted the fluid in the M/C will allow for one full stroke. After that it all depends on your reservoir capacity (that capacity includes all the plumbing to the inlet of the M/C). So by the above calculation you have slightly more than two full pump strokes. Is that enough?

I only throw this question out there to stimulate the thought process. This is really a personal decision of how much margin you feel comfortable with and I think it's good to think about these things during the build process. Having dealt with leaking brake systems before I'm personally not comfortable with just a couple strokes of margin but that's my personal bias based on my experience and risk tolerance.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Jim's comments RE: the single reservoir---


The extra volume of the reservoir serves 2 functions, first to ensure that as the pads wear down and pistons extend, filling the calipers with fluid, there is enough fluid in the system to replace what is no longer in the master cylinder. The second is to provide backup fluid to the remaining side in case of a failure on one end of the system. Having one reservoir with enough volume accomplishes this just as well as two reservoirs so long as there is a small amount of fluid left to prevent air from entering the remaining functioning side of the system during an emergency stop. Most OEM master cylinders have one tank with a low divider built in to accomplish this. In a system with a single remote reservoir and a Tee in the lines the volume is provided by the section of line after the T. On the Willwood reservoirs the smaller ones measure approx 2.5"x2"x1.75 or roughly 8.75 cubic inches of volume each. The larger reservoir is approx 2.25x2.25x4.75 or roughly 24 cubic inches, more than the volume of two of the smaller reservoirs and plenty for the entire system. Having 2 separate reservoirs doesn't hurt anything but having just one large one is as safe as it is on an OEM master cyl.

Jeff

[Mark Reynolds]

See and be seen:
Paint your car a bright color (not black or gray)
Wear a Carhart dayglo colored beanie on the highway
Get shorty helmets for driver and passenger - esp. if no headrest (no I have not done that yet)
Install an actual automotive rear view mirror on the windshield
Billet side view mirrors are great too!
LED headlights
Or you can do what most people do - don't drive the Roadster much (not recommended :) )

[davekp]

Always turn on headlights.

[1932]

On the harness with fifth strap i had both seats fixed with hole in bottom seat for proper fitting. Read the instructions and do them!

[mike223]

Get shorty helmets for driver and passenger - esp. if no headrest (no I have not done that yet)



It's the inertia of your head that's certainly going to kill you - it will not matter (at all) if you hit the rollbar with it.

Check the pictures from the news reports on this tragedy - especially the drone footage (no roll bars needed - I choose not to link the images).

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?31150-33-Crash&highlight=crash





Or you can do what most people do - don't drive the Roadster much (not recommended :) )



All too true.

[65 Cobra Dude]

I use the Safecraft Fire Suppression System with 3 nozzles, 1 in the engine compartment, 1 on the fuel tank and 1 in the cockpit. I use Safecraft model LT5JAB. Thankfully I have never had to use it in any of my cars but always good to know its there if needed

Thx,

Henry

[Itchief]

Don’t forget the exhaust heat shield to save your legs from a serious burn

Rick

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Not a mechanical fix. Never ever say "Watch This"

[RandyF]

So glad I found this thread prior to my kit showing up. Great recommendations here to consider. Thank you contributors!

[TexasAviator]

Here are some of the safety features I installed


Separate Wilwood Brake reservoirs installed.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4779/40605514822_e010e9a1b1_z.jpg (https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4779/40605514822_1f415af069_h.jpg)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4786/40647191261_1b74c32372_z.jpg (https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4786/40647191261_f4c18fd855_h.jpg)



Clutch safety switch installed. Its capable of 16 amps and I used it between the starter solenoid mini starter and the key on the FFR key switch. The clutch must be depressed all the way to the floor for the car to start. Love the simplicity and ease of install.


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4741/40605520202_33d56a5607_z.jpg (https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4741/40605520202_8c7909bd95_h.jpg)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4785/39937530144_8959e77676_z.jpg (https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4785/39937530144_bf4b6f0dce_h.jpg)


Thank you to BOB LLOYD and the MRS for this sweet treat.

Snake Bite blanket made from welding mat material for the wife.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4654/40647188991_9720bdb7b9_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24VRtai)20180305_214658 (https://flic.kr/p/24VRtai) by Brandon Fertig (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158928436@N07/), on Flickr


High mount center brake light LED, its chrome and subdued into the roll over bar (Stealth)
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1816/43119375684_6f78f8d2fe_b.jpg (https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1816/43119375684_02f6b50339_h.jpg)


Fuel Tank wiring and inertia cutoff switch
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4651/26085778348_f3952d0af4.jpg (https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4651/26085778348_5f434fa776_h.jpg)

texas aviator

[Gumball]

Dang - compared to all you guys, 7074 is an accident waiting to happen. Totally old school with not much in the way of safety measures.

And, honestly, I wouldn't have it any other way.

[David Williamson]

Not a modification but good tires are critical for safety on all cars and with the high power to wieght of these cars it is even more important. How old are your tires??? many of these cars are not driven much so the tires don't wear out.
Check the age of the tires and get new ones if they are more than about 7-8 years old. A tire shop is going to like me, 3 cars including my mkll will need new tires this Spring.
David W

[CFranks]

.... The next area I beefed up was the gap between the seat pans and the forward, lower 2x2" tube. A piece of plate steel on each side, now has both floors protected. When the car is done, I will add 1/4" diamond plate to the lower floor. This will add another layer of protection for our feet as well as allow me to not worry about getting a floor mat stuck under the gas pedal like we saw in London a few years ago....

Scott

Hi Sdonnel, do you have a build thread or any more details about this? It's always been on the back of my mind to better protect the cockpit floor.

[walt mckenna]

I track my car, so in addition to items already mentioned, I use: braided flexible brake lines, high temp brake fluid, battery kill switch, and HANS device. Until I got a little more proficient at high speed braking, I wished that I had installed ABS.

[Scott Zackowski]

My list of safety features (some have already been mentioned):

1) You most likely have never driven anything like this. Respect it at all times or it will kill you. Best advice another FFR roadster owner once gave me.

2) Sticky tires. Critical to maintaining rear traction as much as possible.
These cars have a lot of horsepower relative to their lightweight and easily lose rear traction. I prefer AVON tires – street legal radial race tires. Expensive but gives me piece of mind.

3) Power brakes – modern drivers are not use to regular brakes and may not respond or react appropriately in a pinch. For me Power Steering was not critical, the cars are light.

4) Battery and Alternator kill switch. Remember once the car is running, it runs off the alternator. Most fires will occur in the engine bay or behind the dash. If you can’t get to the ignition switch or it is melted, you are screwed. Well you are screwed either way but just more so. For that reason, I put the “true kill switch” between the seats.

5) HalGuard fire extinguishers – One between the seats and one in the trunk.

6) Inertia kill switch – comes with kit.

7) Clutch safety switch with wired in over-ride switch on the dash, just in case the main plunger switch fails.

8) LED Headlights – Used Streetworks. Standard headlights just not bright enough.

9) Drive shaft safety loop – used METCO’s.

10) 5th point on the Safety Harness both sides. For reasons mentioned, to get proper position of the lap belts across the pelvis and not over the abdomen, which would result in internal abdominal injuries.

11) Roll Bar Cross Bar – to attach the shoulder harness at the proper angle. The FFR standard attachment puts the harness too low, which could result in pushing down on your shoulders on impact and crushing the shoulder girdle.

[Big Blocker]

Unfortunately, I'm in Gumball's court too - not much in the way of safety stuff. I DO run a driveshaft loop, I DO have the 5th belt installed (and use it on the highway), The battery cut off switch disconnects my alternator stator line so no more charging / powering car when deactivated and last but not least, inertia switch connected in-line to EFI pump. To counter all that; NO clutch switch, NO neutral safety switch, old style "Jeep" dual master with separate reservoirs (built as one casting with MC), NO windshield wipers, nothing to keep me from burning my leg (or any passenger) when getting in or out, NO power steering, NO power brakes, single roll bar.

Just a pure race car, legal for street driving.

Best safety equipment I have is my brain . . . fully engaged whenever I get in the car with the intention of starting her up and going out on public roads.

Doc

[Mark Eaton]

Best safety equipment I have is my brain . . . fully engaged whenever I get in the car with the intention of starting her up and going out on public roads.

Doc

This should be number one on everybody's checklist

[cnutting]

Also in the Doc and Gumball court. I have a metco loop and use the fifth belt, use it every time. But that's it.

I keep my brain engaged and maintain good situational awareness. Yep, accidents happen. But, that's what I signed up for when I traded my STI with all the safety gear for this adventure.

[mike223]

Also in the Doc and Gumball court. I have a metco loop and use the fifth belt, use it every time. But that's it.

I keep my brain engaged and maintain good situational awareness. Yep, accidents happen. But, that's what I signed up for when I traded my STI with all the safety gear for this adventure.


I'm closer to you three too.

No loop - I'm of the opinion that any driveshaft failure I experience will likely be on launch, or on the shift to second - relatively low energy events that just don't worry me that much.

On the other hand, clutch / flywheel / pressure plate failures are likely to be near rev limiter - lots of energy in that situation - too close to my knees.

No clutch or neutral safety switches - simply not something I'll forget.

Typically lap belts only - could bite me if someone crosses center line - otherwise I have pretty complete control of where the front of the car is going, and how fast - comfortable enough with that.

Not real comfortable sitting (trapped) at a red light - getting rear ended (hard) would be a death sentence in lowbacks - and I prefer the improved side support of the Kirkeys anyway.

[UnhipPopano]

Not long ago, two people were killed in a F5 car. The one thing that could have been added to the car so that they would be alive today is not on anyone's list. It is easy to believe that you are a good enough driver that you would never loose control in a turn or at the wrong time and this driver probably felt the same way. If he had put traction control into his build, the thread about the event and the related news would never have been.

For those that wish to see what driving a light weight and high power car without traction and stability control is like, get on Forza or something similar, choose a light weight car and select the maximum power of build. Then turn off all of the assists and try any of the tracks with changing weather. I have tried this and would not feel safe or comfortable driving such a car in traffic.

[mike223]

The one thing that could have been added to the car so that they would be alive today is not on anyone's list.

If he had put traction control into his build, the thread about the event and the related news would never have been.



I respectfully disagree.

If we are referring to the same incident (and I think we are), traction control (as opposed to stability control - such as Porsche - which is currently pretty unachievable in a home built car) will not save you from a "sloppy lift" off the throttle.

Most of these total loss of control incidents / accidents / crashes are the direct result of getting the car out of shape and stepping off the throttle (and maybe onto the brake) - and traction control will not save you from that mistake.

However, the rearward impact I'm referring to was completely unsurvivable in lowback seats.

Would it have been survivable with some sort of headrest? - maybe, maybe not.


But traction control will not ever save you from transferring a bunch of weight off the rear tires in a bad situation - you're going for a ride you're probably not going to enjoy.

And that's exactly how most people end up traveling backwards in the wrong lane in these sorts of vehicles (Corvette, Viper, Porsche, etc included).

[Avalanche325]

Best safety equipment I have is my brain . . .

Too bad it's not standard equipment for most people.

[caesarmascetti]

well this thread inspired me, as a person with cervical vertebrae issues (deg disk disease, herniation, and stenosis), I just pulled the trigger on a Kirkey hi back series 55 seat, if I got rear ended with the current FFR seats it would be very very very bad. I think high back seats are probably a valuable safety addition for everyone but critical in my case

[TexasAviator]

Unfortunately, I'm in Gumball's court too - not much in the way of safety stuff. I DO run a driveshaft loop, I DO have the 5th belt installed (and use it on the highway), The battery cut off switch disconnects my alternator stator line so no more charging / powering car when deactivated and last but not least, inertia switch connected in-line to EFI pump. To counter all that; NO clutch switch, NO neutral safety switch, old style "Jeep" dual master with separate reservoirs (built as one casting with MC), NO windshield wipers, nothing to keep me from burning my leg (or any passenger) when getting in or out, NO power steering, NO power brakes, single roll bar.

Just a pure race car, legal for street driving.

Best safety equipment I have is my brain . . . fully engaged whenever I get in the car with the intention of starting her up and going out on public roads.

Doc


Everyone says that then they choose to strap on a 2200 lb car with 4,5,600 hp and tell people they are safe. Ohhhh kay...

[mike223]

then they choose to strap on a 2200 lb car with 4,5,600 hp



Because it's one of the few things that can reliably make a grown man giggle.

Naturally, there will always be hazards...


102332

[Avalanche325]

No loop - I'm of the opinion that any driveshaft failure I experience will likely be on launch, or on the shift to second - relatively low energy events that just don't worry me that much.

Typically lap belts only - could bite me if someone crosses center line - otherwise I have pretty complete control of where the front of the car is going, and how fast - comfortable enough with that.



I am only lighting you up because this is a safety thread. I am pretty sure that this will not change your mind one little bit. But maybe someone else will ponder it.

A Cobra at full throttle in 1st gear is very far from a low energy event. A 1-2 rapid shift at redline is downright violent and can be a parts tester. I saw a 69 Camaro, on the street with crappy street tires so not a race situation, break a driveshaft about a second after launch. It vaulted the rear of the car a good 4 feet in the air. Also, you can have damage that you don't know about, and the shaft lets go at highway speed. You don't get to chose when a part fails.

The lap belt only thing.
On the other forum, one of the members had a crash with only lap belts. He and his wife both had facial injuries. If you think you can keep your face off the steering wheel at anything over 25 mph, you should seek out a ride in one of these. https://www.seatbeltconvincer.com/ I did it many years ago, and convincer is the correct name <10mph and it jars your guts.

I completely agree with you that most people really seal their fate with an abrupt lift like you stated in another post. The fact that you even know about this makes me scratch my head that you would make the "pretty complete control" so you don't need shoulder belts statement. Hey, maybe you are really Ken Block. Nope.....he wears his shoulder belts.

[mike223]

I am only lighting you up because this is a safety thread.




All fair enough.

Regarding the driveshaft being low energy - I was referring to the fact that the driveshaft is not spinning that quickly on launch / shift to second, and additionally mine's only 10.5" long - it really doesn't worry me much but I will probably end up working a loop in there anyway (catch the front? / catch the back? / catch the middle?).

The high energy I do worry about is the 157 tooth flywheel / pressure plate / clutch spinning at 6000 rpm - that's far more explosive potential than a 4" diameter driveshaft that will never be spinning at 6000 rpm. !!! Oh yeah - wait - mine would be doing that at 140 mph if I ever go there (at a race track, naturally) - another good reason to work that in !!!


On the shoulder belts - of course you're correct on the seat belt convincer - but the 3" shoulder belts coming through the high back seat are pretty much unbearably tight (to the point of "cut") against my bare neck without a collar. May have to look into pads or something - I do wear the shoulder belts for autoX and such, and if I don't wear them I simply make it a point to keep the car under (*my*) positive control at all times (again - certainly could get burned on a lane crosser - but that whole situation starts quickly heading toward "unsurvivable" in a small convertible anyway).



In general I consider myself only slightly safer in the roadster than I would be on a Harley - and that's the level of operator attention + respect I think it demands out on the big road.

Perhaps we should discuss "reasonable expectations" in this (or another) thread.

Be safe out there.

[Windy City Boys]

THANKS GUYS... life has thrown many curves my way and greatly delayed my order... but its coming sooner than later...and your wisdom and experience is not only appreciated.. but amazed at how on top of everything you are... so like many others.. Im in your debt for your contributions.

[Itchief]

I really liked the no air bags we die like real men post

I try to keep reminding myself that this car has all the safety features of a motorcycle minus the helmet but that may be the reason I enjoy the ride so much

[davekp]

Yes, the Cobra is basically just a 4-wheeled sport bike, with slightly more protection but less maneuverability.
Drive like everyone is out to get you!

[Railroad]

102412
Talk about being unprotected. I had a guy pull up next to me in his BMW convert and ask, is that thing safe? I told him, safer than a motorcycle. It did not even have lap belts, when I got it. Talk about driving conservative!

[mike223]

In general I consider myself only slightly safer in the roadster than I would be on a Harley - and that's the level of operator attention + respect I think it demands out on the big road.

Perhaps we should discuss "reasonable expectations" in this (or another) thread.



This isn't meant to discourage anyone from wearing harnesses - rather to encourage people to think about mistakes you don't get to make (twice), and mistakes you can't allow another vehicle to force on you.

But I look at racing harnesses in a street roadster and see this:

102416

[edwardb]

Have to say I'm more than a little surprised, maybe disappointed, that there's any debate about wearing the full 5-point harness in these cars. Lap, shoulder, and 5th point sub strap. If you do, great. If you don't, please reconsider. Down the street or on a long cruise. Doesn't matter. Could say more but will leave it at that.

[Avalanche325]

Well, admittedly, these are only going to be so safe no matter what you do. Upping your odds is always a good thing if you can.

mike223,
You generally want to catch the front of the driveshaft, so you don't do the pole vault . I have the Metco loop. Easy to install. It bolts right up.

[mike223]

Have to say I'm more than a little surprised, maybe disappointed





My point is more along the lines of better operate with the care + caution you would use on a motorcycle.

Because you're not really far removed - even in a harness.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Since this seems to have turned into a discussion where some seem to feel that (paraphrasing)---"I don't use my belts because I am a good/safe/cautious driver" I'll just interject that my friend and his wife who I mentioned in post #10 that got banged up when they didn't have belts on were hit when another motorist ran through a stop sign. Kinda' hard to be a good/safe/cautious enough driver to keep that from happening. Just sayin'...

Jeff

[edwardb]

Since this seems to have turned into a discussion where some seem to feel that (paraphrasing)---"I don't use my belts because I am a good/safe/cautious driver" I'll just interject that my friend and his wife who I mentioned in post #10 that got banged up when they didn't have belts on were hit when another motorist ran through a stop sign. Kinda' hard to be a good/safe/cautious enough driver to keep that from happening. Just sayin'...

Jeff

Dare I add it's also the law in all states as far as I know. Riding around in an open top car without being fully belted in is an open invitation to getting pulled over.

[mike223]

Since this seems to have turned into a discussion where some seem to feel that (paraphrasing)---"I don't use my belts because I am a good/safe/cautious driver" I'll just interject that my friend and his wife who I mentioned in post #10 that got banged up when they didn't have belts on were hit when another motorist ran through a stop sign. Kinda' hard to be a good/safe/cautious enough driver to keep that from happening. Just sayin'...

Jeff

Ok, let's try this.

For every example we can come up with where the harnesses did or could have made any significant difference in a not at fault accident...

We can come up with ten more examples where the only thing that could have likely saved anyone anything was if the driver had exercised due care and caution.


10:1 ratio, easy - probably closer to 20:1.


Please tell me if you think I have that wrong.

[edwardb]

Ok, let's try this.

For every example we can come up with where the harnesses did or could have made any significant difference in a not at fault accident...

We can come up with ten more examples where the only thing that could have likely saved anyone anything was if the driver had exercised due care and caution.

10:1 ratio, easy - probably closer to 20:1.

Please tell me if you think I have that wrong.

What's wrong is it's not either or. I don't think anyone would question the exercise due care and caution part. I also suspect most of us would agree not doing so is a major contributor to the accidents we see reported on here. But using that as a reason for not wearing the full harness is unwise, unsafe, and as I mentioned illegal. Just plain bad advice. How about we keep it simple. Do both. Wear the harness and drive with care and caution. It's not complicated and I remain surprised this is even a debate.

[RickP]

Please tell me if you think I have that wrong.

Oh my is my first reaction .....

Hey, to each there own I suppose but since you asked and referred a sport bike to a roadster, I will stick with that analogy. And yes, I do ride.

If you don't wear a helmet 100% of the time, you will increase your risk of a head injury 100% of the time, regardless of rider error or a no fault incident. I'm not saying a helmet will prevent ANY type of head injury in the event of an accident, it only lessens risk or chance. The same holds true when in an open cockpit roadster. Jeff mentioned an accident where the fault was due to another driver. Have you considered an equipment failure? Driveshaft letting loose (pole vault) or striking a curb in a turn and flipping the car? Tire failure, brake failure? If for whatever unforeseen scenario and the car comes to a complete stop while your body is still in motion, you will have wished lap, shoulder, and fifth strap were on.

I want to further add, I would not want to sit in the passenger seat of one of these cars where the driver takes a "whatever" attitude with safety features. If he/she does not consider their own safety, what does he/she think about mine? Passenger roll bar, 5 point harness strapped in, fire bottle accessible, and all the other mentioned safety ideas mentioned in this thread.

As Jeff K says "Just say'n"

[RickP]

Oh wait, I'm not done.

I will further the further....

There are some who think their actions/inactions only effect them. Not the reality at all. Our actions/inactions effect us, our significant others, and loved ones and many others. My personal nightmare would be having someone other than me having to wipe my a.. for the remainder of my life due to negligence on my part. How selfish.

[NAZ]

I've never seen where a properly worn 5-point restraint system created a safety issue. But you don't have to look very hard to see where they have saved lives. Been on my top twice -- you will never convince me that wearing a restraint system is not required.

Nothing will eliminate ALL risk but incorporating and properly using proven risk mitigation devices will increase your chance of survival and lower your risk of injury. Debating that fact is an exercise in futility. Using good judgement is the most important risk mitigation and good judgement begins before you even start the car. Using the safety devices available is an example of good judgement.

[mike223]

I've never seen where a properly worn 5-point restraint system created a safety issue.

Using the safety devices available is an example of good judgement.




Agreed.


Let me give you a different example of sound judgement / advice.

If somebody wants to take you for a ride *on the street* and insists that you need a race seat, harness, roll bar and fire bottle in the name of safety - politely decline.

[RickP]

If somebody wants to take you for a ride *on the street* and insists that you need a race seat, harness, roll bar and fire bottle in the name of safety - politely decline.

Yikes man!

[mike223]

Yikes man!

That is exactly the advice I would offer my kids / anybodies' kids.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Let me give you a different example of sound judgement / advice.

If somebody wants to take you for a ride *on the street* and insists that you need a race seat, harness, roll bar and fire bottle in the name of safety - politely decline.

So using that logic I can conclude that if someone asks me to put on a helmet before getting on a motorcycle with them it indicates that they plan to do something stupid.

No need to reply further because I won't...I'll just agree to disagree and check out of this conversation. :rolleyes:

Cheers,
Jeff

[mike223]

I don't really recommend getting on motorcycles with anyone either.

[JohnK]

It's interesting to see this argument play out here. Various versions of this debate play out endlessly on motorcycle forums. I never would have expected there to be any debate about the use of shoulder harnesses (for example), but then again I'm an ATGATT type on the motorcycle (all the gear, all the time). The arguments that folks come up with to rationalize their choices to not use available safety gear are some of the most fascinating mental contortions of logic and confirmation bias you'll run across anywhere.

[NAZ]

Here in AZ we don't have a helmet law. I wholeheartedly support that - don't want the guberment telling me what to do. I believe you should use your own common sense (although sometimes common sense is not so common) and I really don't care if you choose to risk it all -- it's your choice and I truly do respect that. You won't find me supporting laws that regulate personal safety -- the key word is "personal" and that is up to each individual to cover their own @$$. I'm not the nurturing type -- not my responsibility.

But when I ride I'm in the ATGATT camp -- helmet, gloves, and full leathers and I really don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks of how I look -- too old to care. And I ride a cruiser not some high performance corner carver so I don't wear that protective gear thinking that I might push the limit too far -- I like to think those days are behind me. I wear the safety gear because statistics show that I am at greater risk of injury riding a bike. I choose to mitigate the risk in a sensible manner. I raced motorcycles and have unloaded from the bike many times and sometimes it was not my own doing. I have broken bones, separated joints in a most painful way, and cut my self up bad and I really don't like the way that feels. When I see bikers ride in a t-shirt, shorts, and Jesus boots I just shake my head because I know there was a time that would have been me.

So for those that like the wind in your face minimalist approach (car or bike) and nothing between you and the guardrail -- rock on brother. You'll find me strapped in and hunkered down under a plethora of safety devices designed to save my bacon in the unfortunate event I crash and burn once again. It's a whole lot more fun to survive and tell stories about that big crash than to lay in the ER while your family wonders why you were such a dumb@$$ taking these stupid risks. Yea, been there & done that too.

[mike223]

I'm an ATGATT type on the motorcycle (all the gear, all the time).



That's perfect.

Exactly what I was trying to say about "reasonable expectations".


If I were in any way an ATGATT guy, this simply isn't the car I would be in - I don't really understand it at all in this car.

[JohnK]

That's perfect.

Exactly what I was trying to say about "reasonable expectations".


If I were in any way an ATGATT guy, this simply isn't the car I would be in - I don't really understand it at all in this car.

Put simply, it's about mitigating the risks you can and then deciding if you can live with the ones you can't. Using the fact that these cars are inherently less safe than a DD as some sort of rationalization to not use basic safety features like shoulder harnesses is, well... just dumb. Sorry to be so blunt but your "logic" is anything but.

[JohnK]

NAZ I'm with you 100% on helmet laws. I'd never imagine getting on a motorcycle without one but I'm not a fan of legislating common sense. That said, I do resent having to pay for people's stupid life choices when my insurance premiums go up because someone exercised their right to feel the wind in their hair (coupled with their "right" to not have any health insurance)

[mike223]

Put simply, it's about mitigating the risks you can and then deciding if you can live with the ones you can't. Using the fact that these cars are inherently less safe than a DD as some sort of rationalization to not use basic safety features like shoulder harnesses is, well... just dumb. Sorry to be so blunt but your "logic" is anything but.


No worries - the harness issue was just a side track to what I couldn't get straight in my head.

I was more trying to figure out how completely people thought they were mitigating their risks - or at least pose that question as food for thought.


As soon as I saw the concept of ATGATT I figured out we weren't all thinking about exactly the same things.

[Avalanche325]

First of all, I want to thank all of you. Usually conversations like this on forums goes south in a hurry. It is fun to have a nice debate about this stuff.

Mike, here is what I think about your ratio theory.
Any time that a lap belt is actually needed, the shoulder belts are needed. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. Front impact and you chew the steering wheel. Side impact and your torso is going to fly sideways which can cause a head impact, back damage, or internal injury. So, shoulder belts needed to lap belt needed 1:1.
Of course a lap belt is better than nothing, but if you need one you are in desperate need of the other.

Here is what I think of motorcycle helmets.
If a person decides not to wear one that should make them take on extra liability. Here is how I think it should work:
1. Motorcycle rider decides not to wear a helmet.
2. Car driver is a fault in an accident. Let's say runs a red light.
3. Motorcycle rider dies of a head injury.
4. The car driver SHOULD NOT be charged with vehicular manslaughter. They should be charged with running a red light and causing an accident, the same as if the motorcycle rider got up and walked away. The mistake of the car driver should not elevate from a traffic violation to a life changing event, because the motorcycle rider made a decision to not use what is known to be correct equipment.
With freedom comes responsibility.

[Boydster]

I have my roadster, not done yet, but getting there. And I ride a Triumph Rocket 3. I like vehicles with punch. Full face every time w/ long clothes, full belts all the time. No good reason not to, except you wanna be a cool rebel.

[mike223]

First of all, I want to thank all of you. Usually conversations like this on forums goes south in a hurry. It is fun to have a nice debate about this stuff.

Mike, here is what I think about your ratio theory.
Any time that a lap belt is actually needed, the shoulder belts are needed. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. Front impact and you chew the steering wheel. Side impact and your torso is going to fly sideways which can cause a head impact, back damage, or internal injury. So, shoulder belts needed to lap belt needed 1:1.
Of course a lap belt is better than nothing, but if you need one you are in desperate need of the other.

Here is what I think of motorcycle helmets.
If a person decides not to wear one that should make them take on extra liability. Here is how I think it should work:
1. Motorcycle rider decides not to wear a helmet.
2. Car driver is a fault in an accident. Let's say runs a red light.
3. Motorcycle rider dies of a head injury.
4. The car driver SHOULD NOT be charged with vehicular manslaughter. They should be charged with running a red light and causing an accident, the same as if the motorcycle rider got up and walked away. The mistake of the car driver should not elevate from a traffic violation to a life changing event, because the motorcycle rider made a decision to not use what is known to be correct equipment.
With freedom comes responsibility.


I'd like to thank everyone too - and offer apologies to any and all who found my thoughts too far out of bounds to further discuss.

I could not, for the life of me, figure out why it was complete heresy to question (at all) the overall effectiveness of harnesses in these cars.

Frankly, I had written it off - if you actually ever need the lap belt, you've already gotten off into something I don't think there are any acceptable answers for (in street car).


But it makes complete sense in the context of an ATGATT policy.


And your lists regarding the ratio theory and motorcycle helmets shows me that our thought processes are somewhat similar.

[Windy City Boys]

I cant help but comment on the helmet thought... as a teenager who raced motor cross... I took my bike out on a local dirt site.. one of the only times ever without a helmut.. it was just a cruise dont you know?.. just for a casual ride... after the fact they were pretty amazed and said there was less than a 5% chance I lived, could walk, or wasnt a vegetable ... I crashed at over 100 at daytona road racing a few years later with a helmet.. and walked away with several layers of my butt cheek worn away even with protective gear, new leathers and essentially a near totaled bike... wear your helmet... and if you are pushing your car.. put one on... a top rated race helmet...with your five point harness... you can put almost anything back together.. but not your brain pan... and believe me... the stresses of accidents at speed are tough to get thru as a young bullet proof man... let alone most of us...

[Driver_WT]

Automatic day time running lights are required in Canada. You can buy the DRL module to turn on your headlights automatically each time the car is started (or wire in a relay). https://www.amazon.com/Mobilistics-Daytime-Running-Universal-Control/dp/B01IFWNSFI

[Arch]

I always keep the passenger belt/harness buckled. If an accident should happen, I don’t want the buckles flying around the cockpit.
Arch

[GThompson]

I have to admit that I am absolutely STUNNED that no one has talked about DRIVER MODS!!! GO TO DRIVING SCHOOL WITH YOUR CAR!!! Get as many non-street miles as you can! Learn how to drive it!! Learn how it feels to go sideways. The last place you want to find out how quickly it’ll swap ends is onthe street around other cars.

IMHO, these cars can be quite dangerous and, if you don’t know how to react when the turn on you, you maybe should be in something more predictable (and over-engineered) like a Corvette, Mustang, M3, or STI.

[mosh1999]

The driveshaft safety loop and seat belt usage are mandatory.

I will never forget what my father told me the first time I buckled up as the 16 year old driver in the car, we were on our way to my first driver's permit class.

"Son there are always two accidents for every accident. The first is the car hitting an object and the second is you hitting the car."