Go Kart Fail: Transmission not mating with clutch/Flywheel

[jdavis500]

I have had first start on the Gen3 Coupe with Gen 2 Coyote and all checks out ok after several rounds of tracking down issues. I have progressed to gokart(or at least tried to). Since I mated the engine and transmission and installed them, I noticed that the shifter will go thru every gear yet it is independent of the clutch pedal. No resistance to put into first gear without using the pedal. At least, that is what it feels like. I never attached any harness connections to the TKO600 FWIW. Today I started the motor and attempted to put the transmission into gear and see if I could get motion and nothing, not even a vibration or sound. No gears provide motion. I am using Forte's hydraulic clutch with slave fork. I think I am saying that right. I installed per his instructions from what I could tell. When I press the clutch pedal, I clearly get good movement of the fork. Clutch system was installed with the forkslightly past 90 degrees to the drivetrain and toward the rear of the car. Anyone have any thoughts? I am assuming that I am going to need to pull the transmission. I am not sure how to make that happen at this point. I was hoping to 100% of the work myself, but that might need to be done in a shop. Thank you for any input.

[mike223]

Hard to answer well without knowing what you know.

There is a clutch plate installed between the pressure plate + flywheel, right?

Did you check the actual fit of the input shaft into the pilot bearing at the back of the crankshaft? (the bellhousing depth is proper for the length of the input shaft, right?)


The height of the pivot stud that the clutch fork rides on is critical, and must be checked + adjusted (carefully) during final assembly.

I like to be able to prove the clutch is engaging + disengaging by exercising the clutch fork before I drop it in the car - usually I use a crescent wrench for this, but I have seen people use a piece of all thread between the bellhousing + fork (where the clutch cable would run / where the slave cylinder actuates).

[edwardb]

That's really odd. Went back and looked at your build thread. QuickTime bell and TKO are a well proven combination for the Gen 2 Coyote. I'm assuming you left the stock flywheel and pilot bearing? The fact that it seems to shift through the gears without the engine running and not pushing down the clutch pedal isn't unusual. Some will, some won't. There aren't any electrical connections on the transmission that have any bearing on what you're experiencing. What's odd to me is even if you didn't have the clutch arm, TOB, or pivot correct, the transmission should still be connected to the engine. Keep in mind the clutch pedal, whether cable or hydraulic, releases the transmission from the engine. Unless you have it so far out of adjustment it's pushing the clutch in without pushing the pedal. That should be pretty obvious. There should be some slight looseness in the pushrod without the pedal pushed down. I too would question your clutch installation and the location (or existence) of the clutch plate. Also, looking again at your build thread, see that you flipped the rear shifter around. Any chance at all the ball on the end of the shifter isn't engaged in the socket, and you're stuck in neutral? Those are the only things I can think of.

[Railroad]

You might be able to remove the slave cylinder linkage from the clutch fork. This should make sure the pressure plate is against the clutch disk. With the car in gear and room for it to move, bump the starter. If the car tries to move, your hyd linkage adjustment was off.
If you have the clutch safety switch, you might have to by pass it, or press the clutch pedal. Don't over extend the slave cyl, if you depress the clutch.
Did you remove the shifter from the trans? You might have not gotten the shifter link into the socket in the trans. Don't know what that would feel like on the shifter, but the trans may be in neutral. Let us know what bell housing and clutch you are using.

[jdavis500]

Hard to answer well without knowing what you know.

There is a clutch plate installed between the pressure plate + flywheel, right?

Did you check the actual fit of the input shaft into the pilot bearing at the back of the crankshaft? (the bellhousing depth is proper for the length of the input shaft, right?)


The height of the pivot stud that the clutch fork rides on is critical, and must be checked + adjusted (carefully) during final assembly.

I like to be able to prove the clutch is engaging + disengaging by exercising the clutch fork before I drop it in the car - usually I use a crescent wrench for this, but I have seen people use a piece of all thread between the bellhousing + fork (where the clutch cable would run / where the slave cylinder actuates).

Definitely a clutch plate installed.

I didn't check the input shaft fitment. The bellhousing came with a Forte packge, so assumed it would be correct.

I set the height of the pistud as Forte directed.

I should have checked to see if clutch was engaging. This portion of the build was not clear to me based on lack of experience and lack of instructions.

[jdavis500]

That's really odd. Went back and looked at your build thread. QuickTime bell and TKO are a well proven combination for the Gen 2 Coyote. I'm assuming you left the stock flywheel and pilot bearing? The fact that it seems to shift through the gears without the engine running and not pushing down the clutch pedal isn't unusual. Some will, some won't. There aren't any electrical connections on the transmission that have any bearing on what you're experiencing. What's odd to me is even if you didn't have the clutch arm, TOB, or pivot correct, the transmission should still be connected to the engine. Keep in mind the clutch pedal, whether cable or hydraulic, releases the transmission from the engine. Unless you have it so far out of adjustment it's pushing the clutch in without pushing the pedal. That should be pretty obvious. There should be some slight looseness in the pushrod without the pedal pushed down. I too would question your clutch installation and the location (or existence) of the clutch plate. Also, looking again at your build thread, see that you flipped the rear shifter around. Any chance at all the ball on the end of the shifter isn't engaged in the socket, and you're stuck in neutral? Those are the only things I can think of.

With regard to the shifter being engaged with the socket, I can shift clearly into every gear as though it were a gated shifter. I started to pull the shifter plate to look inside, but then talked myself out of it since it feels like I could shift into every gear. Is it possible that I screwed the pilot bearing up when I mated the trans to the engine? If the splines didn't match, could I have pushed the bearing in so that the trans wouldnt engage and turn? That's kind of a scarey thought. I am leaning toward having it towed so someone who knows what they are doing can get it on a lift. I guess the other option is pulling the engine and trans again.

[edwardb]

With regard to the shifter being engaged with the socket, I can shift clearly into every gear as though it were a gated shifter. I started to pull the shifter plate to look inside, but then talked myself out of it since it feels like I could shift into every gear. Is it possible that I screwed the pilot bearing up when I mated the trans to the engine? If the splines didn't match, could I have pushed the bearing in so that the trans wouldnt engage and turn? That's kind of a scarey thought. I am leaning toward having it towed so someone who knows what they are doing can get it on a lift. I guess the other option is pulling the engine and trans again.

No splines on the pilot bearing. The tip of the trans output shaft is smooth and fits the ID of the bearing. I'm sure it's possible to abuse things and mess up the bearing, but it would be pretty hard. If the bell housing seated against the block, very unlikely the input shaft isn't in the pilot bearing where it belongs. The pilot bearing has a shoulder around the outside, so can't be pushed in any further when seated. I really doubt the pilot bearing has anything to do with what you're experiencing.

You're positive the clutch plate is installed. The only other error there would be putting it in backwards. They normally have a sticker or engraved "this side in" or whatever. But even if backwards (which would be bad...) don't think it would keep the clutch from at least engaging.

If you can feel the trans going into the gears, then sounds like the shifter ball is in the socket properly. It was a shot in the dark. You didn't respond about the pushrod, clutch arm, etc. Is it slightly loose? Or better yet removed and then you can move the clutch arm back and forth and confirm the TOB is properly touching the fingers on the clutch. If all of that is right, and your engine still doesn't turn the trans with it in gear, then something isn't assembled right or the parts are wrong. I don't see any choice except to take it apart.

Also maybe confirm you have either a QuickTime RM-6080 (non-SFI) or RM-6080 (SFI). Those would be the right ones for your setup, and would have the proper depth for the trans input shaft assuming you have the proper Ford version of the TKO.

[mike223]

I didn't check the input shaft fitment. The bellhousing came with a Forte packge, so assumed it would be correct.

I set the height of the pistud as Forte directed.

This portion of the build was not clear to me based on lack of experience and lack of instructions.



The assumption the Forte pkg fits together correctly is entirely reasonable. I only mentioned the pilot bearing fit in regard to overall input shaft fitment.

I think a likely failure point is that you may have misinterpreted the instructions for height of the pivot stud (I haven't seen the instructions, but I imagine they could be misinterpreted).




If the splines didn't match, could I have pushed the bearing in so that the trans wouldnt engage and turn? That's kind of a scarey thought. I am leaning toward having it towed so someone who knows what they are doing can get it on a lift. I guess the other option is pulling the engine and trans again.



Again, I only brought up the pilot bearing in regard to (seeing what you know about) overall input shaft fitment - we'll come back to that.


I would start by completely removing the slave cylinder assembly (leave fork wherever it lands), put the shifter in fourth gear and roll the car (or whatever it takes to turn the output yoke / driveshaft if the car is on jacks).

If you don't have sheet metal installed on the tunnel, you should be able to look in the bellhousing (through the clutch fork hole) and visually see if the input shaft turns with the driveshaft yoke.

This would be my first step.


See the input shaft turning and also tell us if the clutch fork feels like it has any play at the rear position.


If you've got sheet metal on the tunnel it may require a lift (or jackstands) and some sort of a borescope, or get really good with a mirror + flashlight.


The system isn't complex, we can probably talk / walk you through it, if you like.

[jdavis500]

Thanks for the input guys. I will work on this over the weekend and investigate the clutch fork and slave cylinder closely. I am attaching a few pics that I found on the mating. Not sure if they help.

101887
101888
101890
101889

[xlr8or]

Sorry to ask a dumb question but did you install the drive shaft. I was looking through your build thread pictures and didn't see any with the drive shaft installed.

[michael everson]

In picture number 3, its hard to tell. Is there a throwout bearing in there?
Mike

[jdavis500]

I now see that the problem was that my pivot stud way too high. When I bolted the bellhousing to the engine, the clutch fork put pressure on the pressure plate causing the clutch to always be engaged. it all make s sense now. I was misinterpreting installation instructions like Like said. I didn't know enough to test that the clutch fork had play in it after mating everything. Now all is adjusted and trying to get trans back onto the bellhousing. I am having a hard time getting everything aligned since I didn't remove the engine. Not sur eif there are any tricks here. Thanks for all the advice.

[OnlyAndy]

I feel your pain on alignment. I consider my self at least a LITTLE competent and I had one hell of a time. TKO 600, McLeod clutch, Quicktime bell to SBC... I finally threw the plastic tool across the garage and lined up everything with the TRANS shaft and it helped. Motor was OUT of car and that made it a little easier. But the last inch into that darned bearing was ever so slow and very fine movements and not too much pressure. Tested my patience to limits.. I also got a tip off ole interweb... Make a couple of "guide pins" out of bolts with heads cut off and put a slot in the end so you can UNscrew them with a screw driver. Need to be 1-2 inch long, helps a lot.

[cv2065]

You can get a 3 foot section of all thread at Ace, cut it to 2 8-10” pieces and use as a guide. Then just unscrew once you have a couple of bolts started. I had issues with the trans alignment outside the car so I mounted the bellhousing on to the trans and had it aligned in 5 minutes.

[Gromit]

Get a helper to push the clutch pedal down after you get the input shaft started into the clutch disk. This will let the clutch disk float and reduce any miss alignment it might have with the pilot bearing In my old school days we didn't even use those plastic alignment tools we would line up the disk by eye and open the clutch to let the transmission input shaft line it up on the way in

Hope that helps
Chris AKA Gromit

[jdavis500]

I pulled the trans with the bellhousing in place. The previous clutch fork setting caused the clutch to always be engaged. It sounds like this gave the clutch disk a chance to get out of alignment. Now that I have the clutch fork setting correct, I need to figure out how to engage the clutch and insert the plastic alignment tool, then disengage the clutch nefore I even think about trying to mate the trans.

[mike223]

It sounds like this gave the clutch disk a chance to get out of alignment. Now that I have the clutch fork setting correct, I need to figure out how to engage the clutch and insert the plastic alignment tool, then disengage the clutch before I even think about trying to mate the trans.



Yes - You're probably going to have to take the pressure plate off, insert the alignment tool with the clutch and then reinstall the pressure plate.

[David Williamson]

you might want to put the bell housing on the engine get the clutch all hooked up to verify the clutch operation before installing the transmission. You will see where the clutch fork sits in the bell housing slot and if you need to you can adjust it while the bell housing is installed.
I had to do this with mine so I feel your pain. I used a ratchet strap on the roll cage to help hold the transmission up plus I had a friend help.
David W

[mike223]

you might want to put the bell housing on the engine get the clutch all hooked up to verify the clutch operation before installing the transmission.



I can't see how you could do anything useful there without an input shaft and the tube that the throwout bearing rides on.

[jdavis500]

The coupe is fully reassembled after having adjusted the pivot stud. I was surprised how much work it required. I used much of the advice here to make it happen. Proud to say today was my first go kart ride in the neighborhood.

[mburger]

Pics? Video? Been following the thread. Glad you got it going.

[edwardb]

Great news! Glad you have it worked out. :cool: