Will it fit? 351 + Performer RPM Intake

[P100DHG]

I am ordering my Roush 427SR with Fuel Injection, it is built off (bored and stroked from) a 351W. Factory Five is saying the Performer RPM intake is too high and will not clear the hood. They are recommending are saying a Performer intake will clear. EFI should give more clearance than a carburetor...

Does anyone have any experience fitting a 351 under the hood and what intake and air cleaner did you use?

I do not want to alter the hood.

[GoDadGo]

My friend Jerry has a Gen-1 Type 65 with a 392-W Stroker (351 Windsor) and he's running a Torker-II intake and Holley four barrel.
It is the same height as the Standard Performer (4.1"), but since it is a single plane manifold it breaths pretty well in the upper range of the engine.
The Standard Performer's range is from idle to 5,500 RPM while the Torker-II RPM range of 2,500 to 6,500 RPM, but remember that these ranges are based on a 351-W.
For a 427-W, I'd strongly suggest the single plane intake because you're not going to have any issues with needing any more bottom end torque.
Give the folks at Rouch a call since they are the Engine Guru's and I'm just a guy that sleeps at Holiday Inns from time to time.

Torker-II Link:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-5081/overview/make/ford

Standard Peformer Link:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2181/overview/make/ford

Good Luck From The Dark-Dart Side!

[P100DHG]

Roush puts on the Performer RPM but FFR says it’s too tall. FFR says use a Performer and Roush says not a problem I’m just going to lose some HP and really I want that 500hp dyno on the engine. Why 500? Because it’s a $25,000 engine transmission package. At 510 with the Performer RPM I don’t have much room to lose HP and still be above 500.

I’m going to investigate the height of the carb vs EFI and see if maybe the EFI is more compact I can get the clearance from that.

[Jeff Kleiner]

We just had this conversation with another builder a couple of weeks ago. If you're using a Performer RPM Air Gap intake you'll probably have issues with an oval filter touching the hood. I've gotten in 3 or 4 cars with the 351 block/Air Gap/Oval combination and here's what happens:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=97196&d=1541943155

A 14" round filter with a drop base and Extreme top will clear and breathe better than the restrictive oval.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/BdVDKJR8vrp1DqVsHbRgsNZHenxBVfzzY5b2UuUGb0sHT7IC5M Kuke3PeSQJ7MAgT8KVmav4fdO0IhCnwdFhe9HeIUO7Io7qmxVJ 146Qjjk5oZ0Faw5iZdD_TSfhZWBxnjlVwdk3rbRshrTniILulC rOnBQjT7DxhPzRgY0TAEokgM8cMxpMtsNw_WsBBUcTAfs-FIqHZ0YEiYIvFnI=s500-pd-e365-rw-pc0xffffff

Trying for additional clearance on top by using lower mounts will likely result in the pan being below the frame rails.

On a related note, some owners have found that the RPM Air Gap intake creates some drivability issues at low RPMs and changing to the lower profile Performer solved both the hood clearance problem and resulted in a happier engine on the street (going back to the points that go-dad-go mentions regarding RPM ranges). Just something to think about...

Jeff

[GoDadGo]

Here are some numbers to contemplate regarding your manifold choice.

Also, a throttle Body F.I. System will likely negate some the tuning issues over the carb.

351 CID @ 7,300 RPM = 741 CFM @ 100% Volumetric Efficiency
...................................667 CFM @ 90% V/E

383 CID @ 6,685 RPM = 741 CFM @ 100% Volumetric Efficiency (My Air Pump of Choice)
...................................667 CFM @ 90% V/E

427 CID @ 6,000 RPM = 741 CFM @ 100% Volumetric Efficiency
...................................667 CFM @ 90% V/E

Talk to the folks that are building your engine and let them know how you want to drive it when you make your choice.

Good Luck From The Dark-Dart Side!

PS: Putting a peppy 427 in these cars is like killing a fly with s sledge hammer instead of a fly swatter.

[P100DHG]

So the EFI vs Carb answer came in. Roush got back to me with the following:

“I just measured the height on the carb and the EFI throttle body. From the mounting surface on the baseplate to the mounting surface for the air cleaner, there is only a 2mm difference in height with the EFI throttle body being slightly shorter. Certainly not enough difference to make up for a ¾” difference in the height of the manifold.”

I’m going to go with the Performer it’s what FFR says will work, they know best. It will cost a little HP but what can I do. Also if it smooths out the idle even better. Should be putting down my deposit shortly.

[P100DHG]

ps: Putting a peppy 427 in these cars is like killing a fly with s sledge hammer instead of a fly swatter.


i love this!!!

[P100DHG]

Just to throw another question out there. The Performer's range: idle to 5,500 RPM --- means....? Does that mean the engine can rev to 6000rpm at all? or just won't be efficient and produce optimal performance?

Just for reference I am ordering the engine to look like this (this is the R with a single plane intake so the intake won't be the same as SR I am ordering with the performer intake but it's just a picture to get an idea of the overall look):

98904

[Garry Bopp]

I had an early Gen 1 Coupe (#031) with a 422" Windsor. I ended up going with the Edelbrock Performer manifold with a 770 Holley Street Avenger carb. It cleared the hood with a K&N filter top air cleaner by about 3/8 ". This dual plane manifold really gave great driveability. Low and mid range torque were outstanding and it pulled strong up to about the advertised 5,500 rpm. Previous to this setup I had the Torker 2 single plane manifold and it was very weak below 2,500 rpm with poor low rpm driveability. My motor was about 425 hp. I had numerous compliments from folks that have driven my coupe on how easy (and fun) it was to drive compared to many replicas they had driven.

Garry

ps just saw your last post ... you can rev the engine as high as you want, but performance begins to drop off above 5,500 rpm.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Just to throw another question out there. The Performer's range: idle to 5,500 RPM --- means....? Does that mean the engine can rev to 6000rpm at all? or just won't be efficient and produce optimal performance?

Absolutely it will rev higher, just sacrificing a bit of power at the higher RPM vs. the intake that shows an operating range of 1,500-6,500 or whatever. Really, unless you only intend to use the car on the drag strip you'll find it will be much more pleasant to drive and easier to live with with the usable RPM range down lower. >5,000 RPM isn't where the car will live if you're going to drive it on the street. Go back and read Garry's response again then thank us later ;)

Jeff

[David Williamson]

I have a Dart 363 with a performer RPM intake on it Fitech injection and a 3 inch high air cleaner. This is in a Gen 3 coupe. The air cleaner is a small oval one mounted sideways and I had to trim some of the hood liner near the back for it to fit, I have about 3/4 inch clearance. The 302 based block I have is shorter than the 351 based engine you are getting. Hope this helps.
David W

[GoDadGo]

Let your driving style dictate your intake choice:

> If you are going to race the car, or drive it like you stole it, then go with the single plane.
> If you are simply going to drive and enjoy the car, then go with the dual plane for the improved manners.

Also, Garry Bopp & Jeff Kleiner are Factory Five Aficionados!
Any opinion they give you will be based on Fact, not Bench Racing Fiction.

[DavidW]

Yes it will fit, but you cant use an oval air cleaner you must use a drop base round air cleaner.

I wanted the endurashine finish so the air gap was my only option. I had to modify my hood.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=98909&d=1544725678

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=87220&d=1528829828

[Garry Bopp]

David W,

FYI, this is posted in the coupe forum ... and the coupe hood clearance is a lot different than a roadster. BTW, your engine bay looks awesome!

Garry

[DavidW]

David W,

FYI, this is posted in the coupe forum ... and the coupe hood clearance is a lot different than a roadster. BTW, your engine bay looks awesome!

Garry

Oooops, hahaha. I guess I should read a little more into the post, sorry and thanks!

[P100DHG]

Here is my order putting down my deposit before Christmas hopefully:

98921

I'll update my build thread once I place my deposit and it's official

[David Williamson]

check the oil pan spec, the front sump won't fit in the Gen 3 coupe frame there are some diagonal frame members at the front.
David W

[P100DHG]

check the oil pan spec, the front sump won't fit in the Gen 3 coupe frame there are some diagonal frame members at the front.
David W

They are changing it for the Daytona specific oil pan but I will check that for sure. Any recommendations?

[KDubU]

I had a 351w with the performer RPM intake and as others have stated, you need to go with a drop base and round filter. It will get you more air going this route than a thinner oval which you can’t fit anyways.

[mike223]

PS: Putting a peppy 427 in these cars is like killing a fly with s sledge hammer instead of a fly swatter.




i love this!!!


It means with most any street tire you're pretty much traction limited through fourth gear.

How fast do you want to be going + still spin the tires at will?

Just a word to the wise...

[GoDadGo]

It means with most any street tire you're pretty much traction limited through fourth gear.
How fast do you want to be going + still spin the tires at will?
Just a word to the wise...

Mike223's point is very valid.

In Test Mode I'm finding that wheel spin starts at following RPM's at roughly 1/2 throttle on 285/40-17" Nitto 555's.

1st Gear 1,700 RPM
2nd Gear 2,600 RPM
3rd Gear 3,500 RPM

Currently I've got my rev limiter set at 4,000 which is doing a good job at keeping me out of the ditches.
Also, my engine is a good bit calmer since it's only a 383 SBC, which probably makes 50-100 fewer ponies.

https://youtu.be/PCngiKoopkA

[P100DHG]

David you saved my ***! Definitely going to need a rear sump.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=99038&d=1544903392

I’m glad I posted that invoice

[GoDadGo]

Definitely going to need a rear sump.

Where God & Chevrolet Intended The Oil Sump-Ith To Be-Ith!

.....Have A Great Build & Get Ready For Your Life To Change In A Very Good Way!

[Vspeeds]

I have the same Roush 427SR with the Edelbrock Performer RPM. I changed out the carb with a Fitech EFI the same height as the Holly carb. My car is still under construction and I'm having the same question. When I set the body on and hood it just barely fits. However I have the 289 kit with the integrated hood scoop. The top photo is without the weather seal on the car which would raise up the body a bit.

I've heard of some guys using solid engine mounts which drops the engine assembly down a bit. I think they do that for better side pipe angle? That could solve the potential clearance issue.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=97303&d=1542036811

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=96902&d=1541393169

[GoDadGo]

I have the same Roush 427SR with the Edelbrock Performer RPM. I changed out the carb with a Fitech EFI the same height as the Holly carb. My car is still under construction and I'm having the same question. When I set the body on and hood it just barely fits. However I have the 289 kit with the integrated hood scoop. The top photo is without the weather seal on the car which would raise up the body a bit.

I've heard of some guys using solid engine mounts which drops the engine assembly down a bit. I think they do that for better side pipe angle? That could solve the potential clearance issue.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=97303&d=1542036811

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=96902&d=1541393169


A 289 FIA is way, way, way cooler than a 427 MK-4 Roadster with a 383, even one with a 6-Speed!


Also, you obviously know the 1st rule of street racing very well!
That Rule Is To Lie, Lie, Lie & Lie Some More!
Keep Calm & Wrench On Brother!

[P100DHG]

Okay here is revised invoice

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=99037&d=1544903205

The oil pan we are now using is a Canton Racing 15-690. Is this acceptable?

[mike223]

The oil pan we are now using is a Canton Racing 15-690. Is this acceptable?




I never found anything to like about "double hump" oil pans.

I am not proud to admit that I am on my third 351w oil pan - trying to keep up oil pressure under any/all/most g-forces...


Here is the only one I would buy again:


https://kevkoracing.com/collections/ford-302-351w/products/part-f501-rr-ford-rear-sump-road-race-pan-302-engine


The one I bought is rear sump - (I would double check what current production is)...

I think it's as good as you get short of going to a dry sump system.

Canton probably has something similar.


Good Luck.

[Vspeeds]

A 289 FIA is way, way, way cooler than a 427 MK-4 Roadster with a 383, even one with a 6-Speed!


Also, you obviously know the 1st rule of street racing very well!
That Rule Is To Lie, Lie, Lie & Lie Some More!
Keep Calm & Wrench On Brother!




Thats funny Steve because I think the SBC with a 6 speed is way way cooler. Remember Carrol Shelby went to Chevy first.

[P100DHG]

Per Mike223's post, Roush suggested

"The 15-690 has an internal scraper and a slosh baffle. If you believe G-forces are going to be an issue, we can use a Canton 15-694. It has a diamond shaped box on the sump floor with four trap doors designed to keep oil near the pickup tube during hard cornering in addition to the scraper and slosh baffle."

Bob at Canton confirmed we should do the 15-694. Same profile better oil control. Bob from Canton said the 15-690 should never be raced it will have issues with exposing the pick up in hard corning, acceleration or braking.

Disclaimer from Canton: we need to know if the block has 4 bolt caps on all 5 caps (this is not compatible with the 15-694) or if 4 bolt caps are on the 3 center caps and the front and rear caps are 2 bolt (this is compatible with the 15-694). (This sounds completely "greek to me"). Same would be true for the 15-690 but Bob from Canton insisted I put this in my update.

Very nice people over there at Canton

Mike223 THANK YOU FOR YOUR EXCELLENT POST! SAVED MY *** AGAIN!

BTW guys at Roush super receptive to the specific advice and I really enjoy the conversation I am having with them over email. What an education for me. I am speaking with Mark Yagelo, what a great guy! Can't expect them to know every car so this help from the FFR Forums is fantastic


Roush Responded and said:

"We use the Dart Sportsman block which is 4-bolt on 2, 3 & 4 and 2-bolt on 1 & 5. Pan fitment is not a concern."

[mike223]

Per Mike223's post, Roush suggested

"The 15-690 has an internal scraper and a slosh baffle. If you believe G-forces are going to be an issue, we can use a Canton 15-694. It has a diamond shaped box on the sump floor with four trap doors designed to keep oil near the pickup tube during hard cornering in addition to the scraper and slosh baffle."

Bob at Canton confirmed we should do the 15-694. Same profile better oil control. Bob from Canton said the 15-690 should never be raced it will have issues with exposing the pick up in hard corning, acceleration or braking.

Disclaimer from Canton: we need to know if the block has 4 bolt caps on all 5 caps (this is not compatible with the 15-694) or if 4 bolt caps are on the 3 center caps and the front and rear caps are 2 bolt (this is compatible with the 15-694). (This sounds completely "greek to me"). Same would be true for the 15-690 but Bob from Canton insisted I put this in my update.

Very nice people over there at Canton

Mike223 THANK YOU FOR YOUR EXCELLENT POST! SAVED MY *** AGAIN!

BTW guys at Roush super receptive to the specific advice and I really enjoy the conversation I am having with them over email. What an education for me. I am speaking with Mark Yagelo, what a great guy! Can't expect them to know every car so this help from the FFR Forums is fantastic


Roush Responded and said:

"We use the Dart Sportsman block which is 4-bolt on 2, 3 & 4 and 2-bolt on 1 & 5. Pan fitment is not a concern."


Glad you found it helpful.

For the record, the Kevko pan also has a diamond shaped trap / sump - pretty fascinating if you ever get a look in there. (I suspect all the RR pans are probably copying one another / extremely similar)

Looking from the outside - the object here is you trap the (extra) oil (9 quarts) down in the wings (oil pan side extensions) - the diamond shaped baffle (middle) has trap doors that let oil flow in but not out - most g-forces will force oil into the trap (from the pan extensions).


One key thing is that *someone* needs to fit the pickup to the pan (in the center of the diamond) - the base of the pickup needs to be ~3/8" off the bottom of the pan (as installed, with gasket) - it usually requires a little hammer / vise / crowbar adjustment.


I'm certain the guys at Roush know exactly what to do with it (but I'm too ocd to let anyone else do that for *me*, without at least checking it).


I guess you could call that "trust but verify", or just learn + do it all + check it all yourself (lol)...


Good Luck.

[P100DHG]

So the 351W based 427 from Roush engine has been built. I have my Coupe and I am waiting on some external factors before I have it shipped. I was reading some current threads and realize I might need a mid-shift in the coupe. I asked Dan at FFR and he said, "it would be ideal though you can make rear shift work." What I would like is for the hole that is precut in the transmission tunnel cover to line up with that shifter on the transmission. If that means a mid shift or a rear shift I don't care. What I don't want to do is modify the frame or the sheet metal. Does someone here have the answer? Thank you so much!

[David Williamson]

go mid shifter with the Ford small block TKO combination.
David W

[NukeMMC]

If you have a TKO600, there are 4 different locations the shifter can reside on that transmission.
https://youtu.be/sYmMSCrIRaA

[P100DHG]

I am reviving this thread to answer the question I had asked 18 months ago. My specs are:

351 Windsor Block
Edelbrock Performer Intake (NOT RPM)
Roush Oval Air Cleaner with K&N E-3515 Element

I thought the RPM would not fit without body modifications. I still don't think it will WITH AN OVAL AIRCLEANER.

With an Edelbrock Perform Intake and the stock 2.5" tall filter element it wouldn't fit for sure. I bought a E-3515 Element which is 2" tall and I will likely buy a custom 1.5" element just in case as it's only $90 for the peace of mind. I might not use it or I might... Things are very close. Likely I have 1/2" clearance and I've seen how that engine moves in there just idling and it might under heavy acceleration touch the hood even in it's current configuration.

So to recap. The Performer RPM is approximately 3/4" taller than the Performer. Remember I had to reduce my element size by 1/2" to make that hood fit on the car with 1/2" of clearance.

For those who don't like word problems like me LOL

Here is the math for:

351 Windsor Block
Edelbrock Performer Intake (NOT RPM)
Roush Air Cleaner with K&N E-3515 Element


1/2" Clearance (C)
2" Filter (F)
0.5" Filter housing (H)
----------
3" to Throttle Body (carb of EFI) (T)


Here is the math for:

351 Windsor Block
Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake
Roush Air Cleaner with K&N E-3515 Element

We are going to work backwards solving for C or Clearance "I" will represent the Intake height difference between a Performer and a Performer RPM so .75" = I

T - H - F - I = C

3" - 0.5" - 2" - 0.75 = -0.25

MEANING! It will not fit.

BUT! So some ideas:

If 1/2" of clearance is enough (if someone could speak to this please David Williamson maybe you can chime in) you'd need a filter element of only 1.25" or you might be able to achieve it with a drop base air cleaner, or maybe that Cobra style cleaner you see on most of the cars will work (this is a guess)... So there might be some work arounds. Also the problem with the oval air cleaner happens where the hood meets the body. A round air cleaner would likely solve the problem too.

SOME ASSUMPTIONS SHOULD BE NOTED: I didn't measure the gap between the top of the air cleaner and the element but visually it's about 1/4" add 1/4" for two microfiber towels and that's about 1/2" of clearance.


129436

129437

129438

129439

129440

129441

129442

129443

[David Williamson]

Your 351 based engine is about 1 inch higher than mine. My air cleaner has a 2 inch element and it fits easily but not lots of space, 1 inch or slightly less. The small filters also restrict air flow that is why I went with the open top design.
1/2 inch clearance might be enough, hard to tell until you drive it and not only does the engine move on the mounts but the hood moves with gusts of wind at highway speed. Maybe time to modify the hood to add space?
David W

[P100DHG]

Roush wasn’t concerned about the smaller air filter they gave me the part number in fact but I agree more air is better. I spoke to Dave B at FFR and this is another option. Looks like it’s their show room car possibly

129469

“ I'd want as tall of an air filter as possible, if you have to trim the liner
as shown I'd do that before I went with a shorter air filter.”

I’m going to notches and see if I can get my 2 1/2 inch filter element in there but it’s really look rough for the Performer RPM

[David Williamson]

I cut my hood liner exactly like in your picture.
David W

[P100DHG]

David thank you so much for your input!

[cob427sc]

I built one of the first coupes. It had a 351 with the Perfromer RPM manifold, Holley carb, and I had to bubble/blister the hood slightly to get enough room for any air cleaner that would fit. The intake did not perfrom well at low speeds (especially when the engine was cold) and I ended up making changes just for driveability. Last I new that red coupe with white stripes was somewhere in the midwest.

[P100DHG]

Okay so after fitting and trimming I can say that I have 1/4” of clearance using Dave B. at FFR’s technique. I had estimated 1/2” of clearance but I’m coming up shy, but I can make a slight mod to the air cleaner base by taking 1/8” off the underside where it rests in the EFI and that means I can gain another 1/4” in the back which will provide the buffer/ clearance desired but I’m going to have to get a machinist to help me.

[Gordon Levy]

I always run a ported torquer II intake on the coupes With my lowering engine mounts and Georgies specific headers everything fits just fine with 351 based engines.

[P100DHG]

Just watched episode 63 of Engine Masters, the Windsor Intake Manifold Showdown and they compared the Edelbrock Performer RPM vs the Performer and it’s very sad.

146087

There is no doubt that’s where my horsepower went and why my 427 engine makes 475 HP vs over 500hp but the Performer at 3/4” shorter height really helps with hood clearance.

And there is no way a Performer RPM with the air cleaner Roush uses and the FFR supplied engine mounts will fit without body modifications.

So there you have it major sacrifice in power for over all look. The air cleaner Roush uses is beautiful and the stock hood bump from Factory Five looks fantastic unmodified.

Everyone is going to have their opinion. For me there is no turning back but for the new builder this might help, but that’s where things fall on this Roush engine combo & provided engine mounts from FFR.

So I guess my advice is if you want that additional power of the Performer RPM plus the Roush engine Gordon’s lowering mounts might do the trick though my oil pan is right at the bottom frame tube running a shorter pan... Gordon can probably speak more to oil pan choice as well.

[Gordon Levy]

Call me tomorrow and we can talk

[GoDadGo]

Just watched episode 63 of Engine Masters, the Windsor Intake Manifold Showdown and they compared the Edelbrock Performer RPM vs the Performer and it’s very sad.

146087

There is no doubt that’s where my horsepower went and why my 427 engine makes 475 HP vs over 500hp but the Performer at 3/4” shorter height really helps with hood clearance.

And there is no way a Performer RPM with the air cleaner Roush uses and the FFR supplied engine mounts will fit without body modifications.

Everyone is going to have their opinion. For me there is no turning back but for the new builder this might help, but that’s where things fall on this Roush engine combo & provided engine mounts from FFR.



We all know that Big-Inch Small Blocks get choked by their heads and intake manifolds so it's like sucking up your drink with a tiny straw.
Again, consider going to the Torquer II Single Plane intake since hood clearance is at a premium.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-5081/make/ford

Just know that most folks are totally afraid of single-plane intakes, but these cars are so light that you'll have few issues.
Your torque curve will flatten, horsepower will increase plus your 427 SBF will thank you as RPM's head toward the upper end!

The Standard Performer & Torquer-II Have Nearly The Same Height 4.120" vs 4.150" So Check The T-2 Out!

Note:.. The increased manifold height of .030" is less than the gap of your spark plugs!
............Also, I am running a Single-Plane Weiand Team-G on my 383-SBC with no issues.

[P100DHG]

146377

Since I use this thread for Q&A as much as I use this for later reference I thought I’d post this cam shaft info that I found with some paperwork for my engine, incase I need it in the future or it helps someone else.

[Mag]

It will fit. This is a pic of my Mk4 with Performer RPM Airgap intake before I switched to Victor JR. 146394

[GoDadGo]

It will fit. This is a pic of my Mk4 with Performer RPM Airgap intake before I switched to Victor JR. 146394

He's got a Type-65 Coupe, not a Roadster so hood clearance is at a premium.