BACK ORDERS! The elephant in the room. [Archive]

Stallion

11-28-2018, 07:35 PM

FFR has a HUGE problem that they apparently can't or won't address. I haven't seen them discuss it anyway.

I can't believe I gave them $26k and they gave me 85% of the parts and I have to wait until some uncertain date in the future before I can continue the build.

Maybe the long standing FFR community is okay with this but those of us that own a business and meet customer expectations aren't and shouldn't be. This has been going on for years apparently.

FFR is spending on R&D for new designs and upgraded models but can't fill orders for months after being paid in full?

Am I the only one that has a problem with this?

It seems like there is no demand that they address the elephant in the room! W

Where is Dave Smith telling me why they have long standing back orders and why it's continued for years. What are they are doing to correct this huge problem? Dave? Where is Dave Smith responding to this?

My frustration is not going away. Anybody else wondering what they are doing?

David Hodgkins

11-28-2018, 08:06 PM

ADMIN EDIT: In retrospect, my reply was too caustic. Sorry about that.

edwardb

11-28-2018, 08:44 PM

42Bfast

11-28-2018, 09:44 PM

To add a bit of perspective, I retired from the aerospace industry where as a mid-sized supplier, we often competed with the big boys, Boeing, Airbus, Lockheed Martin, etc, for parts to go into our assemblies. If a supplier has a problem and falls behind, who do you think gets their parts first, Boeing that is 75% of their business, or us who is 10% of their business?
The answer is obvious. FFR is likely only a small percentage of some of their supplier’s base of business. Thus, if something goes bump in the night at a supplier, FFR is probably not their first priority.
You can search the forum and find lots of occurrences of late parts. Take a few minutes, do a search, and let us know how many occurrences you can find of someone NEVER getting their parts. Doubt you will find any.
Just a suggestion, as this has worked for me, in life, and with this hobby, ..... take a deep breath, be patient, be forgiving, lighten up and enjoy the ride! Life is too short to continue sweating the small stuff,...especially when it’s something that is supposed to be fun. If it ain’t fun, YOU are probably not doing it right!

Gromit

11-28-2018, 10:05 PM

Between all the models and all the options you are looking at tens of thousands of different parts parts to order, receive, warehouse, re package and ship the fact that the POL lists are as short as they are is pretty good. The point is you never hear of the parts NOT being delivered and that's what is most important over the years plenty of other kit car companies that delivered 60% of the parts and never delivered the rest

Good things come to those that wait patiently

TexasAviator

11-29-2018, 12:37 AM

You seem to lack basic business sense. A small business catering to a small niche has to have a model that keeps the cash flow manageable, allow growth, and still be profitable. Something has to give and it's time usually in the form of backorders. Read a book or take a college class while you wait. In the mean time chill out.

KDubU

11-29-2018, 07:28 AM

Wow! While I understand backorders can sometimes prevent you from moving forward on some area of the build, there is plenty that can be done while these BO parts come in the mail. Banging the drum about here won’t win you friends as everyone goes through this in some fashion. Instead of ranting, make good use of your frustration and move forward with your build and place a couple calls to FF about the BO parts and they’ll do everything they can to get them to you as soon as they can.

miller7448

11-29-2018, 08:44 AM

Price, Quality, Speed.................. Pick Two. Same the world over.

RickP

11-29-2018, 08:47 AM

I have to ask the obvious question;

What parts are you waiting on?

GoDadGo

11-29-2018, 09:03 AM

Stallion,

I didn't have significant issues when I ordered my car; however, it was a much softer economic time.
I ordered my kit on November 10th, 2014 and requested a delivery date for for late January 2015.
Only a handful of insignificant parts were missing and they were all outsource vendor related items.
With the super strong economy my gut tells me that Factory Five can't build them fast enough.
This would likely also impact the ordering and delivery of outsourced items.
Have some faith and follow up with F-5 weekly on items that you are missing.
I think this is related to current demand, a super strong economy and the supply chain.

NOTE:...I am a Small Business & SBA Commercial Loan Work Out Officer so I've seen the ups and downs and right now things are doing well, quite well. Since F-5 falls into this category I think the recent tax and regulatory relief that has strengthened the economy has pushed their demand up to a point where they sound as if they may be struggling a bit.

Good Luck From The Dark-Dart Side!

Steve

Mike N

11-29-2018, 09:05 AM

1 post highlighting a long standing issue and 6 posts saying it's OK exactly as it is. That is one reason why it's unlikely to change.

I understand the challenges of suppliers and inventory control, I deal with it everyday. What is almost always the catalyst for raised blood pressure is lack of communication. If you know a part is going to be a little late there is almost always something you can do to work around it. If you were aware that front lower control arms were 6 weeks out when you ordered your kit you could plan on starting at the rear, or sheet metal instead of the front suspension. Having a plan in your head and being excited to get stuck in when your kit arrives, and then realizing that your plan is now dead in the water is obviously going to generate a pretty profound reaction. Something as simple as being told what the current back order items are when you order your kit, and perhaps an update a week or so before delivery would probably go a long way in reducing the obvious negative reaction to looking for a key part and realizing it's not there.

nskaats

11-29-2018, 10:03 AM

I think the main reason most don't complain about it is there's so many other things you can be working on while waiting for those backordered parts. Move on to another area. If you're doing this as a business, time management shouldn't be an unfamiliar concept.

Jay Kravitz

11-29-2018, 02:46 PM

Good Afternoon Everyone,
I want to apologize to you all for any back-orders you may have, as I am the purchaser here at Factory Five. Whether the parts are produced here or outsourced from one of our hundreds of vendors, back-orders are my responsibility to manage. I work very closely with all of our vendors to get materials and parts here, but unfortunately unforeseen delays sometimes occur. Along with my efforts, our shipping department is working around the clock to package and send out everyone's parts in as timely a fashion as possible in chronological order once they are received here. Please keep in mind that many of these parts have been back-ordered for months, so it will take some time for us to ship them all out. I ask of you to please bare with us and be patient for just a bit longer. Soon enough you will have all of your parts to build your dream vehicle and then enjoy it for years to come. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to send me an email - jay@factoryfive.com and I will reply to you as quickly as I can.
Thank you.

bobl

12-06-2018, 06:49 PM

I have to comment to this thread. I owned a small business for years where we built some high end marine engines. The toughest part of the process was time. It would take many months for a build. Not because it took that long to do the work but parts were slow. Many items were very low volume and were made in batches. If your order hit at the end of a run you just had to wait until the next run. I’m sure FFR deals with the exact situation. That’s what makes their product affordable. If they tried to stay ahead of the curve and keep everything in stock, we as the customer would pay the price. That’s just the way it works in a small niche market. Another thought on this subject. The delivery time for a FFR is relatively short. They could wait to deliver until all the parts were on hand, which would solve the backorder issue. However everyone would then be unhappy about that time frame and they would probably have to get more space for storage which would drive prices up. So, I'm personally very happy with the way their system is working.

cv2065

12-06-2018, 07:14 PM

Just to add, any backordered items that you have is FAR outweighed by the excellent customer service after the sale. I’m extremely impressed.

David_Ingermann

12-06-2018, 07:32 PM

"and they gave me 85% of the parts and I have to wait until some uncertain date in the future before I can continue the build.

Maybe the long standing FFR community is okay with this but those of us that own a business and meet customer expectations aren't and shouldn't be."

A large part of the problem (probably 90%) has to do with FFR's suppliers' negligence, not theirs. As someone with a lot of exposure to the automotive industry, I know that even when you give what should be more than sufficient lead-time on orders (particularly mid-size orders) many companies struggle (or simply don't attempt) to fill your order in a reasonable time. That being said, in my well-rounded opinion, 85% is damn impressive for a company FFR's size. Additionally, FFR is fantastic about making sure you get the backordered parts, and they will also povide any parts they missed with minimal questions even after the cut-off date to claim those. FFR easily F***ed up my order more than anyone else on this site (I ended up having to send my whole frame back to them), and I can honestly say they were absolutly stellar in their customer service and delivered what was promised. I understand that it's frusterating not to have all the parts at first, but expecting them to provide 100% at delivery in a matter of 8 weeks is an unreasonable expectation. Wait for your parts, they will come.

FF33rod

12-06-2018, 07:53 PM

Agree with most of the comments and am personally happy with how my experience has gone thus far. Everything has not been perfect and the one thing FFR could definitely benefit from is improved communication as Mike N mentions above. There are some I've communicated with at FFR who are immensely helpful and others who haven't bothered to answer the email. It doesn't matter what business I'm dealing with, if there's an issue it always goes smoother and I was always feel better about it if they tell me what's going on and what to expect. If there is silence, or one word answers, it only aggravates the situation.

Jwheels

12-06-2018, 08:42 PM

Its interesting that the thread starter hasn't posted since his first post.

TDSapp

12-07-2018, 10:39 AM

65kid

12-07-2018, 10:39 AM

It's interesting to note that several folks attacked the fellow that posted the first post, hmmm. I purchased the complete roadster kit as well as the coyote, trans , and IRS rear end from FFR. I prefer to single source as much as possible and in this case it was a good choice mostly. FFR does have a real problem with backorders, and shortages. It was over eight weeks before I received most of my backordered parts. I was advised to stay in close contact with FFR to speed up delivery, and yes it worked. In my opinion FFR is having growing pains. I'm guessing but pretty sure the manpower assigned to handle these problems has not changed from when they were making ten cars a month to the present thirty cars or more. Growing a business to a formidable presence is akin to playing wack a mole address one issue and three others pop up. I have no doubt they will get the backorder problems resolved but I also feel Stallions frustration, after paying north of 40k for a project and receiving only part of it is difficult especially after it is paid for weeks prior to shipping anything. My opinion if an e-mail was sent once a week at least advising of the missing parts status folks would feel better.

FFRWRX

12-07-2018, 11:31 AM

Its interesting that the thread starter hasn't posted since his first post.

I don't think it's surprising. The guy posts about something that bothers him and 20 people jump on him telling him he is basically wrong.

Are you told when you pick up your kit how many parts are on back-order? How about an option to pick it up COMPLETE, even if it means waiting a while longer.

edwardb

12-07-2018, 11:53 AM

I don't think it's surprising. The guy posts about something that bothers him and 20 people jump on him telling him he is basically wrong.

Are you told when you pick up your kit how many parts are on back-order? How about an option to pick it up COMPLETE, even if it means waiting a while longer.

Can't help it. Must respond. The guy didn't post "something" he posted a rant. As evidenced by the content and no follow-up. 7-8 people disagreed with him (not 20) and most including me offered some perspective and workarounds. Yes, the backorder list is part of the delivery paperwork. Most including me wouldn't be interested in waiting until it's 100% complete. Of course it would be great if it were 100% complete on the promised delivery date. I'm all for that! But the alternative is to get started and the backordered parts will arrive during the first weeks of the build. Sometimes requires deviating from the sequence slightly, as several of us pointed out, but no big deal. Kudos to Jay at Factory Five for responding. He's a class guy and took the high road.

It's interesting to note that several folks attacked the fellow that posted the first post, hmmm. I purchased the complete roadster kit as well as the coyote, trans , and IRS rear end from FFR. I prefer to single source as much as possible and in this case it was a good choice mostly. FFR does have a real problem with backorders, and shortages. It was over eight weeks before I received most of my backordered parts. I was advised to stay in close contact with FFR to speed up delivery, and yes it worked. In my opinion FFR is having growing pains. I'm guessing but pretty sure the manpower assigned to handle these problems has not changed from when they were making ten cars a month to the present thirty cars or more. Growing a business to a formidable presence is akin to playing wack a mole address one issue and three others pop up. I have no doubt they will get the backorder problems resolved but I also feel Stallions frustration, after paying north of 40k for a project and receiving only part of it is difficult especially after it is paid for weeks prior to shipping anything. My opinion if an e-mail was sent once a week at least advising of the missing parts status folks would feel better.

Mostly the responses were suggesting how to deal with it. Right or wrong, this isn't a new issue. Kits have been delivered with backordered parts for as long as I've been kicking around with them. The volume rises and falls depending on a number of factors. Not saying that Factory Five isn't aggressive in launching new models or versions (they certainly are) or that they aren't a lean organization (they are) but this isn't new. I agree about regular follow-up and that's a key. I take the initiative though. Once a week, or so, based on the parts and the previous promise dates, is about right in my experience.

Just to recap though, I'm not say it's "OK." There's plenty of room for improvement. But given the complexity, the relative short lead time they are able to provide for kit orders as someone pointed out, the custom and unique nature of what's going on here, and the multiple vendors involved, backorders at some level are going to happen. FWIW, when your build is done and you're blasting down the road, this whole subject will never enter your mind.

JohnK

12-07-2018, 12:27 PM

First off, thanks everyone for the good discussion. My perspective is very limited as I've not yet received my kit. I just made my final payment yesterday and have a kit completion date of Dec. 22, so the anticipation is almost literally kiling me at the moment. Also thanks to Jay for posting here - very classy.

That said, I do have a LOT of experience in this area, generally speaking, in that I've worked in low-volume, high-value manufacturing my entire career. Having been in Operations for a company that makes multi-million dollar pieces of equipment for the semiconductor industry, it was expected by our customers that we shipped systems complete and on-time. Period. Delays or missing parts would literally cost our customers hundreds of thousands of dollars per day. Of course, it wasn't always possible to ship systems complete. Last-minute problems arise, and heroic last-minute diving catches don't work 100% of the time. The absolute key to managing irate customers is to communicate early and often. Even when you think you're over-communicating, you're not. First off, we we not allowed to ship systems with backorders without first notifying the customer prior to shipment and getting their agreement to ship the system complete vs. waiting for the backordered parts. Second, we would communicate status proactively and often on all backorders until they were installed. Were customers still sometimes mad? Absolutely. But... nowhere near as mad as they otherwise would have been if the system arrived on their doorstep with shortages that they hadn't been notified about.

Jay, if you're still reading... I'm always about solutions and not just problems, so here are a few ideas. It seems that Factory Five already know what items are backordered at the time the kit is completed, as it sounds like a backorder list is included with the shipment. Why can't this list be e-mailed to the customer on the kit complete date? Also, intead of the customer having to call up every week to check on the status of backorders, why can't an update e-mail go out once a week? This could easily be system-generated by your MRP system, which would save you the personnel-time of having to field calls from every customer with an outstanding backorder. (Hopefully you do have a decent MRP system. If not, that's a good chunk of your problem right there). Just a couple of ideas on ways to improve communications and hopefully ease the backorder headaches. Just my $0.02, having dealt with more than my fair share of backorders and angry customers.

FLPBFoot

12-07-2018, 12:44 PM

Maybe I'm a bit biased because I attended build school. One of the first things from Scott and Charles was "parts will be back ordered and trickle in over a 6 to 10 week period". "Plan your build based on the POL and all will get to you eventually". I started my build expecting it and that's exactly what happened. Never even thought twice about it. Yes they had 100% of my money but was getting at least one shipment a week from the POL. Last item 6 moths from kit delivery. The rear nudge bar. No biggie. I wont put it on until July of 2019.

Point is, I knew there was a POL and I expected things to be back ordered. I heard this from Build School rather than when I ordered my kit. And my wife and I personally visited FFR and ordered the kit sitting in the show room. Not a mention of a POL and back orders. I think FFR could do a better job of telling people up front and reducing the "surprise" of the POL.

CVOBill

12-07-2018, 01:12 PM

Everyone has an opinion on this and most understand it is going to happen. Kudos to Jay for getting on here and helping out. In my business I try my best to have parts available when I need them. It doesn't always happen and sometimes we have to wait. I've got to believe FFR would love to ship everything together just to save money on shipping the back ordered parts. Every time they ship a back ordered part, the shipping is eating into their profit and that's something we all can understand.

Stallion

12-12-2018, 07:47 PM

I've been waiting to see what kind of responses are posted. I will have a follow up post as I want to continue this conversation now that there are a sufficient number of replies. Thank you to those that have provided suggestions for FFR improvement.

chmhasy

12-12-2018, 08:42 PM

Well, welcome to the forum Stallion and the craziness. BTW what kind of FFR car did you order and what are your plans for it

John Dol

12-12-2018, 08:56 PM

From what I read the original poster has a business and builds the car for a customer who expects a delivery date. Not knowing when the parts are all there makes that a little harder.
For most these cars are build over a period of years so not having all the parts makes it easier to move on to other items in the mean time.
It's all about perspective I guess....
That said as a business owner I would most definitely ask those kind of question at the time of purchase. Most on the forum know that this is common fare.

John

FF33rod

12-12-2018, 09:42 PM

From what I read the original poster has a business and builds the car for a customer who expects a delivery date.....

John

Not the way I read it at all. What I got from it was that he is a business owner, yes. As such, he is used to customers who expect a high level of service and good communication about issues, backorders, etc. He is surprised that, from what he can tell, FFR customers don't have the same expectations of FFR. (Note: I'm trying to be an unbiased interpreter here)

TDSapp

12-13-2018, 09:57 AM

I was part of the forum and trying to learn what I could for months before I ordered my Hot Rod. I knew that there were going to be back orders when I ordered. Mine actually turned out to be less than what others has on their POL list.

When I ordered stage 2 of my kit I saw that a few items were on backorder as well. I waited a few weeks after delivery and then shot Jay an email.

His replay was to tell me what I had on back order and what the delay was. The supplier for the interior pieces was also developing the new bench seats for the Hot Rod truck at the same time. They were finishing my parts the next week, and then everything was going to be shipped at the same time. He expected delivery to head to FFR around the middle of November and it was going to be around 4 to 5 weeks. In five weeks I shot him another email asking for an update and he said that the parts were at customs. Expected shipping date to me would be about two to three weeks.

Low and behold last week I received an email from FedEx that the parts were on the way and then a few minutes later I got an email from FFR. The delivery showed up a day early and I got them on Monday. Opened the box on Tuesday and everything looks great and I now have everything from FFR that I paid for.

It's hard to be able to always deliver without a backorder list when you are a small company and depend on small companies. I am sure that FFR is sending things to us as soon as the vendor gets the parts to them.

Stallion

12-13-2018, 09:52 PM

Bingo! FF33rod

Jacob McCrea

12-14-2018, 10:27 AM

Many items were very low volume and were made in batches. If your order hit at the end of a run you just had to wait until the next run. I’m sure FFR deals with the exact situation. That’s what makes their product affordable. If they tried to stay ahead of the curve and keep everything in stock, we as the customer would pay the price. That’s just the way it works in a small niche market. Another thought on this subject. The delivery time for a FFR is relatively short. They could wait to deliver until all the parts were on hand, which would solve the backorder issue. However everyone would then be unhappy about that time frame and they would probably have to get more space for storage which would drive prices up. So, I'm personally very happy with the way their system is working.

This is my view of the situation as well, particularly the sentence "That's what makes their products affordable." If eliminating the back-orders added another $500 to the cost of the kit, I and presumably many others would rather just work around them - which can be done with virtually no thought or planning. Also worth noting is that FFR has kept kit prices about the same as long as I can recall - allowing those of us not made of money to participate in this hobby.

Big Bear

12-14-2018, 04:05 PM

:confused: Unlike a lot of the posts I'm not an expert! Although I have started or been a partner in about 42 different ventures. and guys customers are those pests that pay the bills and if they are not happy with the entire package with in reason someone needs to try to solve the problem! And in this case the back order parts are available at most auto parts stores! So why can't FF set up a procedure that the builder can get the parts they need in two or three days instead of waiting months. Understanding that very few are proprietary to FF as in the case of door glass Maybe. The Stallion and I are not going to be happy if we have to hand our silly customer back a check for $50,000 because we can't get steering joints or brake pads. The fact is Summit has almost all of the parts that are in the kit, so set up some kind of arraignment that we can get our parts with out having to pay twice.

All that said FF has the best idea and great products and we need help. I am sure that Dave Smith can come with a plan that will solve this problem now! If he needs some ideas I'll be glad to send some options.

Big Bear

Jeff Kleiner

12-14-2018, 04:31 PM

I will have a follow up post as I want to continue this conversation now that there are a sufficient number of replies

Waiting...

Jeff

Fixit

12-14-2018, 04:58 PM

It's either the current process, with a few backorders & parts delays (which aren't that bad)...
OR
FFR raises the kit prices to 3x of what they are (to build a mammoth warehouse and stockpile items) and delays shipment until every tidbit is in stock and they ship an absolutely complete order (and you wait 4+ months longer to get a ship date of your "complete, no backorder" kit).

AZPete

12-14-2018, 04:59 PM

All of you guys overlooked the positive aspect of backorders!
When I got my first FFR kit I told my wife some parts were backordered and would arrive later. (true)
Then I bought other cool parts, mostly because you forum members made me. (true)
So, when boxes arrived, I just said, "another prepaid backorder" and she relaxed. (sometimes true)
"But it's from ____," she said. I told her Factory Five has parts drop-shipped from their source. (not so true)
For my second FFR kit, she was already conditioned that "prepaid backorders" would be delivered for months and months and . . . years.
No tsunamis in the marital pond, thanks to backorders!

kborovick

12-14-2018, 05:16 PM

I am currently on my second build. When I got my kit recently I was missing a little of everything. Front lower control arms, Steering Rack, Rear control arms, gas tank cover and so on. I could do very little work for I was missing a little of everything. After 3 month of waiting I got some parts and still missing some. I was told that one of FFR vendors is not returning their call so they don't know when they will get their parts. I don't think it is unreasonable to get everything at once when I am asked to pay for everything in the beginning. If it was a month delay maybe but I am heading to 4 months with no sign of getting all my parts. Besides the fact when you click on a picture of the item they say is the part and the picture shows as carbon fiber but it shows up as fiberglass. That is false advertisement. My first build was back in 2004. FFR has really slipped since then.

David covered the main points. I see you're new to the forum. This is talked about quite a bit, and I've addressed in each of my build threads. I'm just as impatient as the next guy, and I've had more than a little anxiety about the backorder list (AKA POL or Parts Order List in Factory Five terminology) when I've had kits delivered. Obviously I would be ecstatic if there weren't any backordered parts. But there are for multiple reasons as described. Not saying there isn't room for improvement (and I've said that) but to not expect any backorders for something this complex, with this many parts, and from so many sources isn't realistic. Not to question you, but I suspect the 85% number you cite is probably more emotional than factual.

What I can say is (1) In all but two cases (both vendor issues) I've had all the backordered parts in 4-8 weeks after kit delivery, (2) Factory Five is diligent about sending the backordered parts as they're available. Sometimes they will wait and gather things into a consolidated shipment. But if you need something and they have it available, I've called and they shipped it right out instead of consolidating, (3) I've personally made it a practice to follow up regularly with my backorders. The team at Factory Five has been willing and helpful to keep me up-to-date with the backordered parts status, (4) While I've had to work around missing parts occasionally, I can't honestly say that backordered parts have delayed my builds. You might need to be creative and not exactly follow the assembly sequence. But it's 100% doable, (5) Unless you're one of those lightening fast builders, the weeks waiting for backordered parts is a small fraction of the overall build time and will be soon forgotten.

Big Bear

12-14-2018, 08:20 PM

Just wondering with all the iron you have listed why in the world would price bother you?

Big Bear

edwardb

12-14-2018, 08:36 PM

:confused: Unlike a lot of the posts I'm not an expert! Although I have started or been a partner in about 42 different ventures. and guys customers are those pests that pay the bills and if they are not happy with the entire package with in reason someone needs to try to solve the problem! And in this case the back order parts are available at most auto parts stores! So why can't FF set up a procedure that the builder can get the parts they need in two or three days instead of waiting months. Understanding that very few are proprietary to FF as in the case of door glass Maybe. The Stallion and I are not going to be happy if we have to hand our silly customer back a check for $50,000 because we can't get steering joints or brake pads. The fact is Summit has almost all of the parts that are in the kit, so set up some kind of arraignment that we can get our parts with out having to pay twice...

Big Bear

The basic premises of your post aren't correct in my experience. Most parts in a kit available at Summit? No. Sure, some of them. But most of what makes the build what it is, e.g. Roadster, Coupe, 33 Hot Rod, 818, etc. are not at Summit since Factory Five either makes them in house or has them made by their vendors. Backorder parts available at local part stores? Not usually. Maybe a few cases. I've heard of guys having routine things like brake pads on the POL. But in general, my experience is the backordered parts are typically also custom or at the very least specialized and not common at your local store.

edwardb

12-14-2018, 08:50 PM

David covered the main points. I see you're new to the forum. This is talked about quite a bit, and I've addressed in each of my build threads. I'm just as impatient as the next guy, and I've had more than a little anxiety about the backorder list (AKA POL or Parts Order List in Factory Five terminology) when I've had kits delivered. Obviously I would be ecstatic if there weren't any backordered parts. But there are for multiple reasons as described. Not saying there isn't room for improvement (and I've said that) but to not expect any backorders for something this complex, with this many parts, and from so many sources isn't realistic. Not to question you, but I suspect the 85% number you cite is probably more emotional than factual.

What I can say is (1) In all but two cases (both vendor issues) I've had all the backordered parts in 4-8 weeks after kit delivery, (2) Factory Five is diligent about sending the backordered parts as they're available. Sometimes they will wait and gather things into a consolidated shipment. But if you need something and they have it available, I've called and they shipped it right out instead of consolidating, (3) I've personally made it a practice to follow up regularly with my backorders. The team at Factory Five has been willing and helpful to keep me up-to-date with the backordered parts status, (4) While I've had to work around missing parts occasionally, I can't honestly say that backordered parts have delayed my builds. You might need to be creative and not exactly follow the assembly sequence. But it's 100% doable, (5) Unless you're one of those lightening fast builders, the weeks waiting for backordered parts is a small fraction of the overall build time and will be soon forgotten.

I am currently on my second build. When I got my kit recently I was missing a little of everything. Front lower control arms, Steering Rack, Rear control arms, gas tank cover and so on. I could do very little work for I was missing a little of everything. After 3 month of waiting I got some parts and still missing some. I was told that one of FFR vendors is not returning their call so they don't know when they will get their parts. I don't think it is unreasonable to get everything at once when I am asked to pay for everything in the beginning. If it was a month delay maybe but I am heading to 4 months with no sign of getting all my parts. Besides the fact when you click on a picture of the item they say is the part and the picture shows as carbon fiber but it shows up as fiberglass. That is false advertisement. My first build was back in 2004. FFR has really slipped since then.

Not sure why you chose to quote me. My response and actions were similar to many others. You also posted much of this content in a new thread. Clearly you've got some issues to work through with Factory Five. Hopefully you're doing that and giving them a chance to resolve.

Papa

12-14-2018, 09:00 PM

I told myself I wasn't going to join this discussion, but that ship has now sailed. I'd like to simply address the tone of this thread as it is more like what you find in other forums and not what I've come to enjoy about this forum. To those that have issues with the way Factory Five has handled your order, call them and discuss it directly with them. Your fellow builders are not going to be able to fix this for you; only Factory Five can do that. If you want to discuss your concerns with Dave Smith, call him. I'd be willing to bet that he'd take the time to speak to you if you ask. I've had a couple of moments of frustration myself with various aspects of my project and found that venting here instead of talking to the vendor directly didn't resolve anything. Talking directly and frankly with the vendors proved to be the most beneficial for all parties.

Dave

amasciarelli21

12-14-2018, 09:15 PM

Its nice to see a cool, calm conversation regarding backorders, I purchased my kit back in 2013 and there was a handful of back ordered parts and although I wasn't building on a time table I would have rather had everything shipped at once, w/ that said all the parts came within two months including a few pieces that were damaged and needed to be replaced but I have to wonder the shipping costs on all these back ordered items through the all these years must be a pretty good expense so I would think if they could get ahead of the curve w inventory then we as humans could find something new to complain about. LOL.

Note: I haven't had to deal w ff for quite a while but I always found them to be very helpful and courteous when I did speak w/ them so I hope they can improve on the backorder issues.

Duke

12-16-2018, 02:57 PM

My 2 cents for what its worth:

I'm not surprised by the two general messages I'm seeing. I too was very disappointed and frustrated with the inventory management and backlog situation at FFR when I purchased and received my kit. There seams to be two main themes in this thread's messaging: (1) As a manufacturing company who builds effectively the same product year after year with minor changes for 20+ years, this should have been addressed and processes put into place years ago to improve customer satisfaction. (2) Don't criticize our beloved FFR, they are doing their best and it's just all part of the experience.

Out of two pages, I've only seen one solid suggestion which bears re-quoting:

I'm always about solutions and not just problems, so here are a few ideas. It seems that Factory Five already know what items are backordered at the time the kit is completed, as it sounds like a backorder list is included with the shipment. Why can't this list be e-mailed to the customer on the kit complete date? Also, instead of the customer having to call up every week to check on the status of backorders, why can't an update e-mail go out once a week? This could easily be system-generated by your MRP system, which would save you the personnel-time of having to field calls from every customer with an outstanding backorder. (Hopefully you do have a decent MRP system. If not, that's a good chunk of your problem right there). Just a couple of ideas on ways to improve communications and hopefully ease the backorder headaches. Just my $0.02, having dealt with more than my fair share of backorders and angry customers.

Small specialty manufacturing is simply never going to get inventory management perfect with zero back orders. In this day an age of just in time manufacturing, it's nearly impossible. That being said, after 20+ years it's still being managed (FFR) like a mom & pop shop. Just like FFR invests in new tooling for expansion and capacity management, there should be investment in MRP systems/inventory management systems as well. Bar code scanning for all inventory parts to fulfill kit builds should be the norm, exact reporting of inventory levels at any given time, auto triggers for reordering in advance of running quantities to zero, automated notification emails for build status & completed parts lists/packing lists per box sent to customers, and automated emails for weekly back order status parts. If you don't know where you are, it's hard to predict where you're going.

I'm not sure why this hasn't been addressed yet. I would think that it's something that a board of directors (or an advisory board) would want to normally review at least annually. Possibly because #2 response above it's not viewed as a real problem? IMO, this is an easy 12m project that would be a big win in customer satisfaction and improved word of mouth marketing.

Again, just my personal opinions, but I think they may resonate with a few people.

Papa

12-16-2018, 03:08 PM

3) If you want to talk to Dave Smith, call him. Don't call him out in a public forum.

turbomacncheese

12-16-2018, 03:49 PM

FFRWRX

12-16-2018, 04:21 PM

3) If you want to talk to Dave Smith, call him. Don't call him out in a public forum.

I’m one of those that doesn’t agree with this statement. After 20 years (pretty much when I bought my first kit from them) of the same issue it should be discussed publicly. If there was no issue, there would be nothing to “call him out” on.

Stallion

12-16-2018, 04:27 PM

It’s unproductive for me or anyone else to respond to all of the excuses, brush offs, no problems, etc.

I have been following FFR for years but not on forums. Simply watching the number of model versions and number of models grow and always being impressed by what was offered. FFR has been engaged in manufacturing replica kits since 1995 and in my opinion looks to always be seeking to improve the product.

When it came time to build one, it was a simple matter to pick the model (35’ Truck), choose the options and place the order. The order/deposit was placed and an invoice was provided with an end date. Ordered middle of August 2018, with ready to ship date the end of September.

Approximately 6.5 weeks from order to ship ready, which met expectations based on having contacted FFR about the lead time earlier. Contracted Stewart Transport and then expected that the kit would arrive sometime in the first 10 days of October. There was no communication otherwise.

The partial kit finally arrived at the end of October missing critical parts since the plan was to create a rolling chassis right away. 11 weeks after placing the order and 5 weeks after making the final payment is the very first time I was made aware of parts on back order. Critical parts such as front hubs, steering and suspension components. We are told the last remaining parts will ship sometime in January 2019. No specific date given. That’s around 21 weeks from point of order or about 40% of the year.

FFR had to know at some point that there were significant delays in obtaining parts for the kit and that Stewart Transport was running weeks behind. Neither company provided any communication along the order process. Nothing, zip, nada! Extremely disappointing! I shouldn’t have to call or email them every week they should be calling or emailing me!

Should a new customer have to search blogs and forums to find out this is the typical FFR process? How about FFR providing that information upfront. Such as:

“FFR almost never ships a complete kit.” “FFR is in a perpetual state of back order on certain kit components and Stewart Transport is running weeks behind on delivery.” “More than likely, nothing in either regard is going to change.” I believe those 2 statements would be factually accurate a year or more ago, currently and in the foreseeable future. I can’t believe it after following FFR for years but my experience is that it’s true!

FFR is spending significant time and resources on kit improvements, attending SEMA and other events, and developing new models using virtual reality but it can’t deliver complete orders. Most companies practice UPOD, Under Promise, Over Deliver. I’m not sure what adjective to use to describe the current FFR process.

I can only imagine the nightmare of tracking all of the back orders spread among all of the orders nationwide. Not to mention the added shipping cost to FFR, lost and damaged secondary shipments, etc. Of course, we pay for all the additional shipping cost. It’s built into the price.

Wouldn’t it be great if FFR would inform its current and future customers of the following:
1. Is FFR focused like a laser on the huge back order problem? Please elaborate.
2. What are the goals in that regard? When can customers expect that a kit can be ordered and delivered complete in 6 weeks? 8
weeks?, 10 weeks?, 15 weeks?, 18 weeks?
3. Or does FFR expect and foresee the status quo? Please elaborate.

Perhaps Jay Kravitz from FFR can weigh in here.

wareaglescott

12-16-2018, 05:11 PM

Bottom line is it is their business and they are gonna run it how they want. Until they feel the situation is hurting them enough that they need to address it nothing will change. I can only assume in their point of view it is not worth making changes yet.

The backorders and tracking them down bugged me but the fact that I can call them for free help, the attitude of the people I spoke with and their level of customer service in every aspect of the operation other than backorders was an amazing experience. I did something particularly dumb and destroyed a hard to replace component from speed hut during the build. Called up and spoke to Tony and he literally dug around in a box under his desk and happened to have one and mailed it to me for free. Where else are you getting that sort of service?
Me and Duke went to the factory for a visit. None other than Dave Smith spent 45 minutes personally taking us on a tour. Then as it was approaching lunch time he took us out to lunch with him and about 6 of the guys. What other CEO of a large company is doing that? Some I'm sure but not many. Cherry picking and harping on one negative aspect of the operation and focusing on it while not looking at the big picture is a little silly in my opinion. Big picture I believe 99% of the customers will rate the overall experience as a positive. I know I sure do.

Duke

12-16-2018, 06:01 PM

Echoing what Scott said, the employees at FFR are top notch and truly care about providing a great experience. I agree that the 'thorn' of the POL/Back log and inventory management process shouldn't clout the otherwise exemplary customer service the FFR team provides. I think we can only 'hope' that a new state of the art inventory management system is implemented to mirror the new VR technology. That would really bring their offering to the next level for customer experience.

Stallion

12-16-2018, 06:45 PM

I hope I can be a catalyst for change and I will keep pushing for it. Publicly, privately, whatever it takes.

RRussellTx

12-16-2018, 08:14 PM

This thread reminds me of an experience I had at a job several years ago. I was able to sit in on a session given by the head of customer relations for a large retailer with over 8,000 stores in the US. During part of the session, she opened up the 1-800 Complaint Line into the loud speakers of the room. We were listening to actual real time complaint calls and it was absolutely hysterical. These folks were on a roll! One after another they ranted about this and then that. After the calls, someone in the group asked her how she could put up with such negative and emotional people all day long. Her reaction changed my view immediately. You would have thought that they called her baby child ugly. She explained that the customers who are willing to speak up and voice their concerns passionately are the companies most valuable customers and she always loves to hear from them because they can help the company improve. She was a Saint - and absolutely correct.

SSNK4US

12-16-2018, 10:08 PM

I’m having a REALLY hard time holding my tongue with all of this. (Because I’ve turned into a grumpy old man, at least that’s what my wife says lol)

Sure everything and everyone can always improve, whether it’s FFR, Sears, Nordstrom, me....

But none of us work at Factory Five, except for Jay, so we really have no clue one way or another what goes on there with respect to this thread. What they’re trying to improve or how they’re trying to do it.

Communication? Sure EVERYONE can work on that.... but sit down with your significant other, kids, best friend, neighbor or coworker and see how well YOU actually communicate. Sure communication always helps everything but again we’re not in
their shoes so we have no idea do we? Does anybody even know how many people work there? 8? 20? 100? Is Jay working on B/O’s then putting tubing into jigs to be welded? Probably not, but still do we really know? There are two sides to every coin.

I guess my point is this thread started to get a little heated? FFR puts out a FANTASTIC product! and I don’t think many can disputed that fact at all. This forum is by builders, about builders and for builders.

David pulled his reply at the beginning for being too caustic. Sorry Dave I don’t agree and I think you should have left it on there. I almost PMed you saying so. You were defending your baby, the company you believe in, as we all do. It was a knee jerk emotional response that I’m sure was a lot less caustic then some responses that other people could have posted.

Oh back to my point lol. Does FFR need some communication improvement? Of course, we all can.
Is this thread worth all the time spent on it?
IMO.... no.
I’d rather be reading and looking at pictures of some more of Papa’s powder coating adventures or reading Dave’s or Edwardb’s or Jazzman’s (and so many others, but you get the point) build threads for the 100th time. Or laughing at da bats comments (I wanna be just like him when I grow up) Or learning something new or important from the other Jeff lol

Just my 2¢ My rant is over.....

Kurt

JL1744

12-17-2018, 08:36 PM

I received my kit and had exactly the same frustration and may have written the same post at the time. As a newbie to the build world, I waited for years to make the purchase, then plunk down 30K, the parts arrive and you open the manual to start the build and the nut to hold the lower control arm is missing! It did get me crazy... But then you settle down and realize that there is much to do and move on to something else. I was forced to spend time doing more research to get better ideas so the delay became a good thing in the end for me.

Two things I do agree with, the communication could be better from FF5 before the order is shipped and the option of a Complete Kit should be considered.

Stallion

12-19-2018, 12:30 PM

GoDadGo

12-19-2018, 12:51 PM

I've been following this thread just to see where it was headed so with that said:

I am very glad that I ordered my project when the economy was softer than soft and asked for an extended delivery date because I specifically stated that I didn't want to deal with back ordered items....My only regret is having life related set backs and work getting in the way of completing my car....

Sorry you all are dealing with so many Ship Later-/-Back Order issues.

Good Luck From The Dark-Dart Side!

JohnK

12-19-2018, 01:04 PM

Parts that we needed still on back order that we may receive sometime in January from FFR:

Steering joints - We purchased from JEGS and had them in 3 days
Rear brake pads - We purchased from Advance Auto Parts and had them same day
Brake reservoirs - We purchased from Wilwood and had them in 3 days

Not trying to antagonize you but I'm honestly wondering what you're trying to accomplish. If you really want to be a "catalyst for change" as you said, then offer up some suggestions for imrpovement. I have. Others have. Your posts are just rants. If you just want validation over your frustration, that's OK too. I'm sorry for your frustration. I can genuinely appreciate that it sucks to be waiting around for parts. If that's all that you want, can we all move along now? Otherwise, offer up some ideas.

Erik W. Treves

12-19-2018, 06:43 PM

So like many others I have been watching this post.... no hiding it .. I am a Factory 5 guy through and through... been doing it for a few days now...

not sure what "change" or catalyst we are trying to create by creating this polarizing thread that honestly will only distract from building.

Comparing Jegs to FFR is kinda of silly... the volume that Jegs gets vs. FFR isn't even in the same neighborhood and I am sure FFR has their purchase agreements and contracts... but given the supplier(A) choice to supply to a small company or to a nation wide company... I think we know who is getting the parts.

You can never please everyone... sure we fork out the cash .. but FFR does deliver the kit and they get it to you as quick as they can so you at least have something to start with....or would rather have them hold your money until every part is available and then ship 6-12 months later... then we'd be seeing catalyst threads on how FFR has our money but hasn't delivered the kit....

and for the other argument of well then they shouldn't sell the kit until they are 100% - well that's an interesting business position... I would say that's a receipt to sell very few kits per year.

so it's a compromise...

but do your homework...

sure there are back orders... but you WILL get your parts. You can't put them all on in one day... believe me I TRIED!

So we are clear... the back order parts are on the TRUCK? If so are you really surprised that the 1st year out of a new kit that their wouldn't be logistical problems on supply since a lot of the components are common to all the kits.

On that note... as a Family (welcome to the Family BTW) - if you are one who is open and honest you may find other fellows that would actually GIVE YOU parts that you are lacking while you wait since they may not be as far ahead...

that's the thing about The Factory Five Group... we don't want you to buy a kit and build it all by yourself and we never hear from you again.... join in the fun... if you're a stuck... don't stand in the rain and complain about that it's raining when 5 of us standing inside all have umbrellas ... we will certainly give you one until you are ready to come inside....

BTW - I have those steering joints and a couple shafts left over from several of my builds - which you could have had for shipping :)

I needed a front window for a GTM before and a local guy let me have his while I waited 2 months to get mine....

yeah it's a bummer we don't get the parts right away... but if you don't have suspension pieces... work something else.. gas tank...don't have that... get the body on there and gap that...it all has to get done.

I got burned by Stewart Transport - so we are clear ... they don't work for FFR... they held up my truck build going to SEMA for 2 months even though Tony from FFR helped me with coordination...

If you REALLY need the part call... they will figure something out. ... Communication is a 2 way street... sure they could call you... OR better call them ... if it's important to you then call... if not then don't .

in the end - yes I agree having back ordered parts is frustrating - but isn't like they forgot to ship them. You will have to call from time to time to ensure the parts that important to you are enroute... if you need help ... ask the forum... there might be somebody by you that could loan you a part.... happens every day!

From your list - I don't see anything there that wouldn't have kept you from getting a TON of stuff done.

Anyway hope your build goes well... the truck is fun to drive... gets a lot of looks . Make sure you look in the Build section when it comes time for the doors and the bed pieces... specifically the roll pan.

If you need some other parts ... post it up on truck forum... I have a few other odds and ends from the Beta verification build I did that might get you by in a pinch... FWIW the brake reservoir for the truck is 1 each stainless container - not the wilwood plastic stuff....

I am sure people with disagree with some, if not all of what I said, and that's fine... but the forum is about helping out the guy next you- and making the community better... not beating up FFR business practice... if you have issue with that - then stand firm and contact them! They will listen if you have a valid concern.

Don't waste time on this - just go finish your kit... the rewards are just few more installed parts away... it's all part of the Journey!