Project Question and Answer with Rhode Island School of Design's Michael Lye [Archive]

Dave Smith

08-11-2011, 01:23 PM

Guys,

Mr Beer Baron (Peter) had an idea and thought it would be cool to do some Q&A with the man behind the modeling effort of the 818, Michael Lye. Michael was one of the design Judges and his team of artists at RISD (Rhode Island School of Design) is currently turning third-place winner Xabiers car into a 1/4 scale model, from which we will be scanning and scaling for a full size vehicle. Beer Baron had the following questions. If you guys have any, you can post them here. Michael will handle the shaping/design questions an I can jump in with anything outside that scope...

Questions for Michael Lye

1. Can you tell us a bit about the teams you have working on these models? I understand these are RISD students, but that is a broad pool of talent from which to select. Are these students modeling experts, design gurus, car nuts, or something else entirely?

2. There have been some hints that at least one, if not two clay models will be designs we haven't seen yet or designs that didn't score a contest win. What gave the unnamed designs the "pop" that made the team decide to model them? Who had input into these selections? (And since I'll guess that you had some input, what personally drew you towards these designs?)

3. In translating drawings and renderings to clay, there are obviously going to be some areas where the modelers must take some artistic license with the original design. In the designs we know reached clay (Nouphone Bansasi and Xabier Albizu), what areas required extra attention or refinement by your team? Were you given the freedom to refine areas that were well-defined but not aesthetically pleasing to your team?

4. The paint-free gel-coat body of the 818 adds an extra challenge to the design process. Can you explain the compromises necessary to accommodate this special body? Has it driven design decisions in unexpected directions?

5. You have partnered with big names like NASA, Sikorsky, Intel, and Maytag. (from your RISD webpage) Do you find a small, passion-driven business like Factory Five to be a different experience? Do you find yourself giving art lessons or receiving engineering lessons?

6. The biography you provided for the contest reveals that you own and enjoy driving a Lotus Europa. Given the Europa's polarizing looks are you sure you can be trusted with this design?

Dave Smith

08-11-2011, 01:27 PM

I can answer question 2: We are making models of the top three designs. RISD crew are doing one at a time and have started with Xabiers design. We are also doing the first place winner on computer printing 3-d. There are four designs in total we are doing in 1/4 scale but starting with the first and third place cars that should be ready for viewing in a few weeks.

I think this is crucial (design review) and the forum here will be instrumental in helping to select the cars we will make (roadster, Coupe and track car)... That's right, we want three bodies for three dedicated purposes and I believe a 1/4 scale model in real life will give us direction better than drawings. I would prefer to do three full-size cars, but the scale models are fast to do, give a realistic estimate of the real car, and can be rapidly scanned and scaled and go to production.

Dave

Dave Smith

NicksPapaw

08-11-2011, 03:09 PM

During the design process, is any wind tunnel testing done, or, does the team only concentrate on shape, fit, and function and leave the aero testing to Dave and crew?

riptide motorsport

08-11-2011, 04:17 PM

This is too cool!!!!!!!

Question: Can you make the modelers work double and swing shifts. .........I want it now!!!:D

Dave Smith

08-11-2011, 04:46 PM

The wind tunnel was used twice on the GTM and that was for specific testing of downforce. In the case of the 818, one of the three variants is a high-mileage capable (60+ mpg) vehicle and frontal area and drag will be the big challenge with drag something we can do flow analysis on Solidworks software for the bulk, or at least they say we can do that. The performance version sports car in it's racing trim may be a good candidate for downforce testing as the car is already lightweight and the current designs do appear to lend themselves to spoilers/airfolw management.... still, to answer your question directly, none of the designs have been tested (nor will they likely be tested) in a windtunnel, with software being the only likely tool before full body shapes are made.

D2W

08-11-2011, 05:28 PM

Has it already been decided which car will be the track car, which one will be the roadster ect? Will the track car be street legal, lights possibility of a full windshield ect.

Edit: ah, I just noticed in you're second post the term "performance car in racing trim". See how easy it is to let the cat out of the bag.

slopoke

08-11-2011, 07:21 PM

Is the track car going to be a coupe based on its propensity to be more aerodynamic?

Doc_FFR

08-11-2011, 07:59 PM

Any hope for a street Xabier?
Is everything still on track for the Las Vegas Sema show?
When is the name going to be announced?
When am I going to get my T-shirt? :)
Is the number one design going to be modified, or is it about the same as we saw?

kach22i

08-11-2011, 08:01 PM

6. The biography you provided for the contest reveals that you own and enjoy driving a Lotus Europa. Given the Europa's polarizing looks are you sure you can be trusted with this design?

Funny stuff.

Flamshackle

08-11-2011, 08:06 PM

Dave will you be making the car RHD for the euro and Australian/NZ interest with it being a "world car"? Maybe make use of the donor dash board also?

That would definitely reduce costs and make RHD conversion a piece of cake for the interior of the car for us non LHD countries :D

Thanks...

Michael Lye

08-11-2011, 08:51 PM

Hi everyone. I'm looking forward to answering some of your questions and giving you a bit of an update on the state of the model. I'll start with the first ones from Beer Baron and then do my best to keep up with any new ones. So on to the Q+A:

1. I've got a very talented team of Industrial Design (ID) students from RISD working on the 818 model. Two of them (Will and Oleg) just graduated and one (Stephanie) will be a senior in the fall. As Industrial Designers, they've worked on a wide variety of projects at RISD, including things like product design, furniture, even NASA spacecraft and habitat design projects. They've got excellent drawing, modeling and fabrication skills. So I'd say they're designers first, modelers second, and car nuts a close third. When I asked them how they would respond, they liked the "something else entirely" the best. I think I heard the word "crazy" mentioned in there as well but perhaps that was just my imagination! But they're working their fingers to the bones trying to get the first model done and doing a great job. I'll try to post a picture of the crew if I can figure out how.

2. Dave's answered this one already so I'll move on to the next one.

3. Going from 2D to 3D can be challenging but we're starting from some excellent renderings by Xabier. I wouldn't say we're taking artistic license with the original design as much as we're trying to capture the feel of the renderings in 3-dimensions. There are places in the original design that need interpretation though. Some curves don't really flow in 3D they way they might look in a drawing. There are other places where even though the design intent is clear, parts don't quite match between different views. For example, the lip of the spoiler is significantly higher in the rear views than it is in the side view. So we need to find a way to keep the right feeling but reconcile the different views. Although there are plenty of opportunities to inject our aesthetics into the model we're really trying to make sure the model represents the design that so many like.

4. For now, the paint free gel-coat hasn't had a big impact on what we need to do. There are a few places that would be difficult to mold they way they are now - for example between the rollbar housing and the fairings behind the seats. We'll need to take a look at places like that to see what might need to be done. First though we have to get the model looking just right.

5. I see you've done some research Beer Baron! Actually working with Factory Five is a lot of fun. Yes, they're smaller than some of the other organizations I've worked with and - as any of you who've met Dave know - they're very passionate about what they do. But I've been very fortunate to work with a lot of passionate people at the larger organizations, too. So in that sense it's fairly similar working with FFR. On the other hand it's great to work with the people that have direct control of the end product and are able to make things happen really quickly with a minimum of (or really no) bureaucracy. The 818 may not happen as quickly as all of you'd like but it's moving pretty fast compared to things at NASA for example, where 10 years might elapse between a first concept and the actual design flying. For the second part of that question, I haven't been giving too many art lessons except to my students, but I enjoy picking up engineering concepts. I think Jim, Jesper and Dave have a pretty good eye for the aesthetics of cars.

6. As to the polarizing design of the Lotus Europa, I think every bread van should look so good! Seriously, despite some awkward angles there are some really good views of the Europa and the best is probably from behind the steering wheel. But I'll do my best to make sure the model looks good from all angles. You'll all soon have a chance to judge how we've done for yourselves though. I hope it will meet your expectations. I know Dave won't accept anything but the best for the 818.

Hope that answers most of your questions. Let me know if you've got more.

Thanks for the opportunity to add my $.02.

Michael Lye

08-11-2011, 08:53 PM

Riptide, as much as I'd like to make them work harder, I promised them they wouldn't have to pull any all-nighters. And even though they could do it, I'm not sure I can anymore! We'll get there soon though.

Michael Lye

08-11-2011, 08:59 PM

During the design process, is any wind tunnel testing done, or, does the team only concentrate on shape, fit, and function and leave the aero testing to Dave and crew?

As Dave mentioned wind tunnel testing is not likely to occur on the models. Unfortunately RISD doesn't have one and I'd really have to twist a few arms (or come up with some big cash) to use one of the nearby tunnels. Would be fun in the future though. So we're concentrating on translating the design into 3-dimensions while trying make sure that it can be made easily and look great.

thebeerbaron

08-11-2011, 09:00 PM

As to the polarizing design of the Lotus Europa, I think every bread van should look so good!

Michael, your responses were great but this one made me laugh out loud! Kudos to you and your team and thanks for casting a little light on the process!

Michael Lye

08-11-2011, 09:13 PM

I thought I'd add a photo of the RISD team working on the 1:4 scale clay model.
3519

That's Will on the right, Oleg in the middle and Stephanie on the left. Hopefully you figured that last one out though. And unfortunately I didn't quite get the model in the frame. Sorry! ;)

NicksPapaw

08-11-2011, 09:27 PM

Michael, one more question for the night. Would you PLEASE go back and take another picture? This time, point the camera a little lower and to the right. :p As that appears to be where the model resides. I just added the last sentence for clarification so......ahem....... I wouldn't be mistakenly asking for a full frontal of Will. :) Not that he isn't a fine looking young man. lol

305mouse

08-11-2011, 09:32 PM

I can't wait to see how you incorporate airflow to the TMIC in the design. In the grand scheme of things, this project is moving along very quickly.

Flamshackle

08-12-2011, 01:04 AM

I will just move the intercooler to a better place and duct it differently. My massive intercooler core wont fit on top I dare say :D

Niburu

08-12-2011, 08:20 AM

Michael, one more question for the night. Would you PLEASE go back and take another picture? This time, point the camera a little lower and to the right. :p
I was thinking more to the left and lower
but my motivation might be a bit different than yours

Silvertop

08-12-2011, 08:59 AM

Well, Dave has done another masterful job or providing us with just enough new information to keep us salivating without giving away too many secrets.......

We now know that Rodney Olmos' Second Place design is one of the four chosen for 1/4 scale clay modeling, along with versions of the other two top contest winners. That is good news, since it is a very attractive design. We still really don't know which design might be used for which application, though an earlier post by Dave elsewhere on the forum seems to indicate that Nouphone Bansasi's first place winner will be presented as a coupe, and it is likely that Xabier's will be presented as the track car, per earlier comments by Dave, and also per Michael Lye's reference above to issues with modeling the rear spoiler (the street version was not drawn with a spoiler).

No real way to determine what's going on with the Olmos design, except by process of elimination, but I think I'll avoid that.... So I can avoid being wrong!

The really fun mystery is 1/4 scale model #4, which I suspect will be held close to the vest until the model is completed and revealed.

Thanks for the input from the Michael Lye of RISD. It's nice to see how that process works. BeerBaron, congratulations on providing a great set of questions.

Can't wait to see the reveal on the first two models. I AM salivating, and my checkbook has an itch...........

Dave Smith

08-12-2011, 09:15 AM

I can address some of this. Without exception I am trying to stick to our development plan as people usually are happy when you do what you say you are going to do. I am really late on getting the gallery of images up online and updating the website, but the actual car project is going to schedule. When we launched the concept and contest it was at our Feb 18 Winter Open House. The design contest ran to our Sum mer Open House, afterwards I said we would execute on scale models of the designs we felt, based on the submissions AND feedback from customers, within the next few months. We are actually cheating on the scale models because I decided to hedge my bets and do some full-size shaping, AND some CAD based 3-d printing of models to augment the RISD effort. That effort, is on-going and Michaels team is doing a great job.

Michael, I would love to have you share the photos of the previous models and transition work on the transport project you showed me.

With respect to the actual cars it is a tough thing to talk about before actually showing folks the 1/4 scale models and work in a complete or semi-complete way. I said before that I am absolutely convinced that this chassis can serve (like a swatch watch) three distinct and separate markets. Those different cars will share the 818 underpinnings (chassis, suspension to the most part) but look very different.

I want to unveil three (with a secret 4th) designs in 1/4 scale model form so that you guys can evaluate the designs in real life touch, feel, look at in proportions that will be only scale away from reality. Maybe one of the three will stink, maybe one will be a rock star, but I think the reception will affect many things, like the model we launch first, whether or not we go back to another design, or maybe modify one that is close.

The cars we are doing are the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place cars with a surprise 4th (and IF I can afford it, a surprise 5th that I alone love). The work here ion interiors and the tech tips on the subie stuff is so great!

I think we are close to showing the work for you guys to evaluate. The models will be coupled with real hard data on the vehicles, the cost, the running gear, etc. This way you guys will step in after the design contest and help winnow the focus further.

Dave Smith

08-12-2011, 09:23 AM

Seeing the real-world shaping reminds me of a few things about "drawings and concepts". First is the obvious and that is the design in real 3-d space always looks different than the Foose sketch. Sometimes big and sometimes small differences, but never the same. Another thing is that the involvement of group design and feedback is one of the great challenges of the modern "social networking" times. Structuring the feedback to stages and focusing on the right group (Grassroots motorsports racers and FFR customers rather than general public) is something I feel is important. I have seen Jim and our guys at FFR IGNORE customers feedback because they knew the stage observed was not complete and didnt present all the data. On the other hand, our success at FFR is directly due to listening to the feedback and incorporating ideas from customers as we have constantly improved our designs. The GTM was a customers idea. There are many many miore examples of legitimate, directed, thoughtful collaboration with customers and FFR that make other "crowd-sourcing" companies look ridiculous as they listen to any joe on a facebook page, irrespective of time, talent, or whether the person has a skin in the game.

In FFR product development, I like to think that we completely ignore people and yet fanatically listen to customers.

thebeerbaron

08-12-2011, 11:13 AM

Oppenheimer

08-12-2011, 11:42 AM

I guess this question is to Dave. It seems many had the impression (from your comments) that the design contest was not necessarily linked to the body design(s) that would become the 818. Yet 3 of the 4 designs going into modeling are the 3 design contest winners.

Are these really your (Dave and/or Jim’s) top 3 picks (that you feel FFR clientele would find most appealing)? What was your reasoning in choosing these 3 as the designs to model?

Doc_FFR

08-12-2011, 12:43 PM

Any hope for a street Xabier?
I think many of us are wondering this.

kach22i

08-12-2011, 12:54 PM

In FFR product development, I like to think that we completely ignore people and yet fanatically listen to customers.

I'm pretty sure I like what this means.

Provocative statement in any case.

Silvertop

08-12-2011, 02:05 PM

I'm pretty sure I like what this means.

Provocative statement in any case.

Yes, I'm pretty sure I like it too -- depending of course, on the particular species in which Dave thinks FFR customers belong.........

Dave Smith

08-12-2011, 02:19 PM

Customers are car guys, enthusiasts, friends, people who want great things out of life and are willing to work for them, racers, mechanics and craftsmen, scientific minded, mature, capable and the people we've been lucky to attract over 15 years of building fast cars.

"Are these really your (Dave and/or Jim’s) top 3 picks (that you feel FFR clientele would find most appealing)? What was your reasoning in choosing these 3 as the designs to model"

I have been reluctant to commit to any designs in the up front stage even more so because while the contest needed focus, I wanted a wide variety of concepts to look at since I was from the beginning seeing this chassis as three cars in one capable. Its weird as a project grows, how your ideas and hopes and fears either get magnified or fade. In this case my worries, the few that I had, are non-existent, and my excitement and optimism is growing tremendously. I am very very excited about the budgets Ive seen on shaping and the speed and capability of our shapers and cad technology. What I mean is that I think body shaping will be faster, less expensive, and easier than I thought. This means the flexibility on designs is greater.

I guess to answer the question, while we saw some other cool designs, we figured it would be wise and respectful to start with the designs that won, or make close derivatives of them.

At the end of the day I know that the single largest, most important factor on this project is that the car has to look stunning. Im not being cocky here, rather Ive seen the chasiss, understand the weight and balance of the car, know costing, know operational issues and supplier matters, and have thought thru all the rest of the car. The only challenge is the body shape and I am spending huge capital (that is scarce right now) to ensre that this development process nets a body shape (or three) that make you willing to sell your children or take a swing at your mom in order to drive...

Dave Smith

08-12-2011, 02:21 PM

btw Huge thanks to the baron for his ideas on Michael Lye Q&A.

Kempo

08-12-2011, 03:35 PM

that make you willing to sell your children or take a swing at your mom in order to drive...

LOL, Now this is a quote I plan to use in the future.

Pierre B

08-12-2011, 04:27 PM

Lotus Europa may be aesthetically polarizing to some, but the first time I saw one in the late sixties, I ran four city blocks in Syracuse just to find out what the thing was. It was twenty years or so later that I eventually bought one (Series S2), which I enjoyed for fifteen years. Fussy little thing but lots of fun. More to the point, though, the Europa design went from initial design conception to production in 18 months! Dave, the clock is ticking... so make Colin Chapman and all of us proud. Of course, as with all things worth doing, better done well than quickly. I have no doubt we will see fantastic (to use a term that's overused by F1 pilots) results. Can't wait.

ScottKoschwitz

08-12-2011, 06:15 PM

The Europa was the first Lotus I ever drove, and I agree that the best view is from the driver's seat. I mean this in the sense that the cockpit is comfortable, the view out the front allows you to know exactly where the corners of the car are, and the view out the back (with the rear glass so close to you) is probably the best out of a sports car. I would love if FFR could accomplish that with the 818.

D2W

08-12-2011, 06:16 PM

Dave, what do you see as the difference between the roadster and the track car? I'm guessing they will use the same drivetrain, chassis, suspension. And you said the track car will be registerable for the street so it will get a windshield. A full cage? simpler body, no doors? no top?

ScottKoschwitz

08-12-2011, 06:24 PM

Good questions. 've been mulling those over myself.

Dave, earlier in another thread, I suggested a dedicated 818 open house, or making the 818 the focus of the winter open house, to show the models and discuss the development with the 818 groupies. Would you consider doing that?

Ks2

08-12-2011, 07:14 PM

first off this is an awesome thread and says alot about the company, these are questions more for dave

can we expect alot of options and additional extras available? i know the base price starts at under 10k but there is alot i wouldnt mind paying a bit extra for to set my particular 818 apart especially if they can come in the kit ready to bolt in.

also is there plans to make the exterior panels easy (well atleast possible in an afternoon) to change out? i personally like the idea of buying an additional exterior and having my race car for the weekend then switching the panels out to something with a roof for cruising during the week. with the possibility of 5? or more bodies and if they can be easily changed, you could almost have a different car each day of the week (atleast on the outside)

PhyrraM

08-12-2011, 07:36 PM

I have long stated that the 818 should be a modern Europa of sorts. Polarizing styling or not, the 818 - like the Europa before it - should be a declaration of what is possible with ho-hum everyday off the shelf parts and a bit of creative assembly.

olpro

08-12-2011, 08:30 PM

I don’t race, or pretend to know anything at all about it, but it seems to me to be a bad idea to change bodies from day to day on a car, for racing on the weekend and cruising/commuting during the week.
I would assume that the race version, with its extreme engine tune, fraction-of-an-inch ground clearance, highly specialized tires, rock hard suspension, etc. is going to make a temperamental and completely unsuitable street car. I don’t personally enjoy being left high and dry on the side of the freeway by an unreliable vehicle.
If I wanted to race, I would want a fully competitive machine, not some jack-of-all trades thingy that does nothing well.
I can see removable or additive panels, to save weight or provide downforce aerodynamics, on a basic platform which would allow me some flexibility. But the change-the-whole-body idea doesn’t look feasible to me.
Am I wrong?

Hankl

08-12-2011, 08:43 PM

I don’t race, or pretend to know anything at all about it, but it seems to me to be a bad idea to change bodies from day to day on a car, Am I wrong?

I think your wrong in your assumption that some one would buy this to change the body, like you change shoes. It's all about a standard platform, that can have different bodies based on its final configuration. You would not build a street car to compete in racing and vice a versa.

Hank :cool:

Cooluser23

08-12-2011, 08:55 PM

Will any effort be made towards cool interior design?
If so, will there be different trim levels? (i.e. track version, street version)

(which uses factory Subie components if necessary)

olpro

08-12-2011, 09:02 PM

I think your wrong in your assumption that some one would buy this to change the body, like you change shoes. It's all about a standard platform, that can have different bodies based on its final configuration. You would not build a street car to compete in racing and vice a versa.

Hank :cool:

But that is exactly what is being suggested in post #35.

Cooluser23

08-12-2011, 09:03 PM

Will downforce be designed into the cars from the beginning? (i.e.: underbody diffuser)
rather than fixing problems afterwards with wings/spoilers.

Cooluser23

08-12-2011, 09:21 PM

Will it be possible to make doors that open at an upward angle? (like Aston Martin type doors) This would help not scrape the doors when parked next to curbs. I don't think it would be very difficult/heavy to include that. Both mechanisms I've outlined below look fairly simple.

Or maybe doors that open similar to a McLaren Mp4-12c. A shock strut would reduce the wear and tear on the fiberglass body from slamming doors, and the up- and outward openning door would allow for fairly high doorsills and easy clearing of any crash structure in the car body. (therefore making the doors lighter, and avoiding having to put crash structure into the actual doors, rather than the cassis. (I'm sure those struts could be taken off the donor Subaru somewhere)

Aston Martin
http://www.sportscarcup.com/cars/shiny-aston-martin-db9.jpg
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/vehicle-pictures/2009/aston-martin/dbs/5695-037-driver-side-door-open-480.jpg

McLaren Mp4-12c
http://mrcarblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/McLaren_MP4-12C_2.jpg
http://mrcarblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/McLaren_MP4-12C_1.jpg
http://0.tqn.com/d/exoticcars/1/7/h/C/-/-/McLaren-MP4-12C-rear.jpg

McLaren F1
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/19/22531269_730bc1262b_z.jpg

Cooluser23

08-12-2011, 09:38 PM

http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/assets_c/2010/09/2010_MP412C_1600_sus_fr_det_tireclearance_lock-thumb-717x478.jpg

In order to give the carbon monocoque the maximum possible stiffness despite door cutouts, clearances must be tight. They're so tight, in fact that there's no place for traditional door hinges. Instead, the door hinges attach higher-up (yellow). And that's why...
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/assets_c/2010/09/2010_MP412C_1600_sus_fr_det_tireclearance_door-thumb-717x478.jpg
source (http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2010/09/2012-mclaren-mp4-12c-suspension-walkaround.html)

This is where I remembered reading this. While the 818 isn't a monocoque, the early pictures we saw of the tube frame show a fairly high door sill as well, so the problem may be a similar one to solve.

I also think that "interesting doors" fulfill Dave's requirement of the car looking "stunning". Certainly at a racetrack paddock, or in valet parking at a hotel. They also aid in the safety aspect of the doors being "completely out of the way" should rescue crews have to enter the cabin.

If possible, could we have some pictures showing the design process and key stages on making those 1/4 size models? I always wanted to see how the process looks at a smaller scale than large auto manufacturers.

Dave Smith

08-12-2011, 10:06 PM

Lots of questions, I need to call Michael for back-up! Ha. A few answers.

I think that Xabiers car shows how small differences in body shape can go from Track car to elegant street car. The Porsche 918 is one of those designs that seems to live in both worlds aesthetically, still I want a more radical (think lotus 211) track car shape, but Xabiers 818 and 818R are my favorite, the differences being roll cage, upgraded konis and brakes (done already btw) and perhaps some aero add-ons like side canards, wings etc as I think aero will take the lightweight/good hp car to the nxt level of real performance.

An 818 Open House is a KILLER idea to gather feedback and just have fun. We could unveil the models, MAYBE hot rod the running chassis (I'm a sucker for donut contests), but seriously, a good Q&A with Jim and Jesper and the crew here in a fun and informal format open to those reading this (I would count those as customers and "qualified" feedback).

The gull-wing doors are probably something that could break the budget on the roadster version but on the Coupe (that will almost by definition cost a tad more) is an outside chance.

Alot of guys question the budget target, but if you really take a hard look at what we deliver in a Mk4 Base kit, the chassis, body, aluminum panels and boxes and boxes of parts... I think we will nail this car as long as the body is, like I said, ROCKSTAR cool.

Hankl

08-13-2011, 01:00 AM

D2W

08-13-2011, 01:11 AM

[QUOTE=Dave Smith;29768] An 818 Open House is a KILLER idea to gather feedback and just have fun. We could unveil the models, MAYBE hot rod the running chassis (I'm a sucker for donut contests), but seriously, a good Q&A with Jim and Jesper and the crew here in a fun and informal format open to those reading this (I would count those as customers and "qualified" feedback).QUOTE]

I think I just heard Jim's head explode:) Seriously that sounds like a great idea. Wish I was a lot closer so I could participate.

Michael Lye

08-13-2011, 07:34 AM

Lots of questions, I need to call Michael for back-up! Ha.

Sorry for not getting back to the forum until now. Not only do you all want the models done but you want answers too. Boy, tough crowd! Now that I've got the clay out from underneath my fingernails - or at least what's left of them - I'll go back and try to give Dave a little back-up.

An 818 Open House is a KILLER idea to gather feedback and just have fun. We could unveil the models, MAYBE hot rod the running chassis (I'm a sucker for donut contests), but seriously, a good Q&A with Jim and Jesper and the crew here in a fun and informal format open to those reading this (I would count those as customers and "qualified" feedback).

If Dave can arrange an 818 Open House, I can probably make it there to answer a few questions in person and perhaps show some of the process of making the clay model. It sounds like fun.

Michael Lye

08-13-2011, 07:39 AM

Michael Lye

08-13-2011, 07:52 AM

Michael - going with the gist of some of the questions here, is your team giving thought to realities like radiator and intercooler ducting and placement, or are you only focussing on modeling what has been drawn? I think I know the answer, just want it from the horse's mouth.

While we're primarily attempting to model what's been drawn, the issues of ducting and placement are becoming clearer. We (the clay modelers) won't make any unilateral decisions on those things but the model itself does highlight the airflow to an extent and may suggest some answers to those questions. On thing I'd point out on the 818 renderings is that the area behind the seats and between the headrest fairings will likely be a low pressure area if there is rear window glass. Without glass it's less clear but is still possibly low-pressure. But perhaps some computer analysis will show differently.

So we'll get the model looking right and that can serve as a basis for making decisions on some of the things you've highlighted.

Michael Lye

08-13-2011, 08:08 AM

If possible, could we have some pictures showing the design process and key stages on making those 1/4 size models? I always wanted to see how the process looks at a smaller scale than large auto manufacturers.

If there is an 818 open house I'll try to show some of the process there. And perhaps even before then I can show some photos of the process here.

Unlike the large scale auto manufacturers we're not using and milling machines to rough out the clay. It's all being done by hand. We use templates that we can drag through the clay to provide reference surfaces to work from while using clay tools to carve and shape the clay. One of the good things about clay is that if you need to you can add clay back to an area easily and still have a monolithic structure. So changes are accomplished relatively easily, which is important when try to determine how lines flow in 3D based on the 2D drawings.

I'll see what I can find for photos of the process that I can post.

Silvertop

08-13-2011, 08:39 AM

That is what the poster is suggesting, not FFR.

Hank :cool:

True enough. But Olpro was in fact responding to the poster, not to FFR.

We can wish for anything. And I can certainly see the appeal of a quick-change car body. I'm just not sure how practical that is. The ability to easily swap bodies -- in an afternoon, or in a day -- would have to be designed in from the get-go, which would likely add additional cost to the project. But FFR will have to be the final judge of that, and of whether the versatility would render the additional cost worthwhile..........

Dave Smith

08-13-2011, 08:40 AM

Guys,

I just want to say how grateful we are to have the quality and caliber of support with Michael and his team. The team and talent assembled to help with this really challenging project is impressive and I hope you guys can tell by the way we've approached this entirely new car (with a well-thought out plan and a resourced and talented group) that we are very serious about it's success in a larger way than making a few cars. Thanks Michael and I will work on the open house/cruise-in/design unveil/fun day plan.

Michael Lye

08-13-2011, 09:22 AM

Michael, I would love to have you share the photos of the previous models and transition work on the transport project you showed me.
Dave's referring to a student project done in a RISD/Brown collaborative class from a couple of years ago that I co-taught along with Chris Bull from Brown Engineering. The students in the class designed and built a small 3-wheeled vehicle that ran on bio-diesel. This was a 12 week project from introduction to running prototype. They created both a full-size running vehicle and a 1:5 scale clay model of the body that it would have. It ran for the first time right after their final critique (equivalent to a final exam in the RISD design studios.)

Here is the first test drive of the vehicle:
3542

For those of you interested in the modeling process, here are some images of the model in progress. A group of 6 students created this model in about 2 1/2 weeks - without much in the way of sleep during that time.

3538 3539 3540 3541

Many of the parts in grey primer were designed in Solidworks, and then rapid prototyped on a 3D printer to speed the process.

These photos show the students presenting their design and the finished model on exhibit at Brown. You can see some very exhausted students on the background!

3543 3544 3545

Just a note, we may not paint our model the way they did as it interferes with making changes down road. There are other options and we'll figure that out soon.

Silvertop

08-13-2011, 09:48 AM

That's fascinating! Can't wait to see your 818 models!

riptide motorsport

08-13-2011, 10:11 AM

This all too exciting!

Silvertop

08-13-2011, 10:23 AM

Dave or Michael:

Are we allowed to know whether you are modeling 2nd Place Winner Rodney Olmos' V1 (targa coupe) or V2 (roadster) version?

("700 Designs" thread, Post 66....)

ScottKoschwitz

08-13-2011, 12:26 PM

Wow, the quality of that trike model is really impressive. I can't wait to see the 818 models.

NicksPapaw

08-13-2011, 02:14 PM

WOW !!! All I can say is WOW!

Hankl

08-13-2011, 02:54 PM

Dave,

That 3 wheeler needs to be the next project, with a enclosed cockpit, an inner city transportation vehicle, you could call it the "409" (1/2 a 818) because it would really clean up the market!!

Hank :cool:

Ks2

08-13-2011, 05:46 PM

in response to olpro (and others), my idea of weekend racing is SCCA on the weekends maybe a few passes at the drag strip, not a full blown race car like you have in mind/described. i have a full koni suspension in the subaru (dave already hinted at the final car having this) and it is easy to adjust, my idea of a weekend racer is changing the tires, suspension setup maybe the tune then switching back for street driving, others who take racing more seriously might want a dedicated track car

it doesn't necessarily have to be a race car and street car to change out, just used it as an example, it was mentioned there are 5 different bodies, perhaps a open top for the warm months and a hard top for winter as another example

as for additional cost if all the body kits have the same mounting points where they attach to the frame it wouldn't be too difficult... (waiting for dave to chime in)

also micheal i may be able to speak for everyone when i say we would love to see other models and transition work if you happen to have any more shots lying around

Flamshackle

08-14-2011, 04:35 AM

RHD for us outside the states derived from the local supply of donor cars? Dave? anyone?

305mouse

08-14-2011, 09:31 AM

I would assume since it's based on your donor, that this car would be either RHD or LHD. With a simple interior, the two sides could be swapped depending on what side of the road you drive on.

Someday I Suppose

08-15-2011, 08:33 AM

mekeys

08-15-2011, 09:16 AM

It looks like the 1/4 scale models are in good hands..!!!

Mel

2KWIK4U

08-15-2011, 02:38 PM

I am pretty excited and can't wait for the models to be shown. those look like some talented model makers.

Michael Lye

08-15-2011, 06:27 PM

This is a great thread. Michael, interesting on the comment about not painting the clay model in order to make it easier to make addiditional changes. That was going to be my question, would the clay as well as the computer printed 1/4 scale models be painted to give a better feel for what the final product might look like?

The clay can certainly be painted to a high quality finish. But before that happens we want to be certain that the model meets all the design goals so if there are minor revisions needed we don't have to worry about the paint. There's no point in putting the time into paint if the form isn't right. As Dave said, it's got to be stunning - if it's not quite there, it's time for revisions. Right now it's actually helpful for us to see the model without any graphics, lines or other extras as it shows the form off most clearly.

Or... will the clay be scanned into 3D and printed??
The process will be to scan the surfaces of the models, scale them appropriately, and use the data to then mill the body in full-size. So it won't be printed but there will be a full-size mockup of the body ready to work from.

Glad you're finding the thread interesting. I am too.

Someday I Suppose

08-17-2011, 08:30 AM

I HOPE there will be some video of that full size body being milled... :-) Is it cut from a high density foam I assume?

(and yes on the thread being interesting, I love seeing how technology is now incorporated into design, amazing what RP technology has brought.)

The clay can certainly be painted to a high quality finish. But before that happens we want to be certain that the model meets all the design goals so if there are minor revisions needed we don't have to worry about the paint. There's no point in putting the time into paint if the form isn't right. As Dave said, it's got to be stunning - if it's not quite there, it's time for revisions. Right now it's actually helpful for us to see the model without any graphics, lines or other extras as it shows the form off most clearly.

The process will be to scan the surfaces of the models, scale them appropriately, and use the data to then mill the body in full-size. So it won't be printed but there will be a full-size mockup of the body ready to work from.

Glad you're finding the thread interesting. I am too.

mekeys

08-17-2011, 01:19 PM

I would like to see a video camera of the work being done on the models as well as on the full size mock-up..

Mel

Silvertop

08-17-2011, 02:39 PM

I would like to see a video camera of the work being done on the models as well as on the full size mock-up..

Mel

So would I! And if real-time footage is impossible due to the need for secrecy, I'd settle for some video camera footage we could look at even post-reveal.

818_Fan_15

08-17-2011, 04:34 PM

The gull-wing doors are probably something that could break the budget on the roadster version but on the Coupe (that will almost by definition cost a tad more) is an outside chance.

They are actually Butterfly doors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_doors), technical name: dihedral doors (http://www.mclarenautomotive.com/uk/Chapters/Pages/explore_full_dihedral_doors.aspx#/story/Chapters/Pages/explore_full_dihedral_doors)

If someone could figure out how the hinge on the new McLaren Mp4-12c works, which doesn't need a second attachment point at the top of the window, it may be a good option for the 818.

From the McLaren link above:

The reason for [the fancy doors] lies in their unique design. When opened, they actually remove part of the lower sill that typically makes getting in or out of a sports car an event for all the wrong reasons.
[...]
Parking made easy 603mm. [23inches] That's the surprisingly small amount of space a driver needs to open the 12C's unique doors; inconveniently lengthy doors openings being another feature that traditionally makes driving a sports car ever day less appealing.
[...]

Lightweight and aerodynamic
We're proud of our obsession with weight. [...] When designing the dihedral doors, our engineers questioned whether with some intelligent design, they couldn't reduce the McLaren F1's double door hinge design to just one. The 12C's doors pivot elegantly on a single, lightweight hinge.
[...]

Gull-wing doors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gull-wing_door) are more reminescent of the DeLorean DMC-12

http://youtu.be/6CLvA7Y5law

Michael Lye

08-17-2011, 07:18 PM

So would I! And if real-time footage is impossible due to the need for secrecy, I'd settle for some video camera footage we could look at even post-reveal.

We've been taking quite a few still photos as we've worked on the clay model. I'm hoping we can stitch them together into a decent time-lapse but haven't tested that idea yet. There will be some gaps but there should be enough there to show the evolution of the model. We haven't shot any video though as it's really kind of slow most of the time. Perhaps as we get closer to the end I can do that though our first priority has to be getting things right. Most of this would be shown post-reveal though. We're going to have to wait for Dave to let the cat out of the bag first.

thebeerbaron

08-17-2011, 10:14 PM

Flamshackle

08-17-2011, 10:20 PM

I don't think any of the designs reused the donor bits, but surely custom designed lighting would be break the budget.

Xaviers car uses donor lights at the front at least (and donor seats)

This is super smart IMHO to keeping costs down and looking ace at the same time :D

305mouse

08-17-2011, 10:36 PM

Every two model years though the headlights are different. Xavier's used the 06-07 headlights. Tail lights changed as well from 03 to 04 if I remember correctly. I would think the kit would come with headlights and tail lights because of these model year changes. Or I could be completely wrong and if you use an 03 donor you'll have to source 06 headlights.

Michael Lye

08-18-2011, 06:51 AM

Michael - at what point in the design process are details like headlight and tail light sourcing decided? I don't think any of the designs reused the donor bits, but surely custom designed lighting would be break the budget. I can't imagine building these models only to reshape them around donor lighting later.

Headlights and taillights have a very significant impact on the look and form of the body. One of the nice things about clay is that it's easier than some other materials to try out different ideas. So we can consider various options as we go along but for the front end to look right the lighting has to be considered very early or the lights will look tacked on. The rear might be a little easier if it has simple round taillights but anything more complicated has the same concerns. So the short answer is from the very start we're looking at the possible sources for these parts.

Michael Lye

08-18-2011, 06:58 AM

Xaviers car uses donor lights at the front at least (and donor seats)

This is super smart IMHO to keeping costs down and looking ace at the same time :D

In Xabier's renderings it's interesting to look closely at what he did with the headlights. The front 3/4 view shows them most clearly and if you look carefully you can see they're actual photographs of the Subie lights. However, in the process of photoshopping them into his renderings, he's distorted the lights in subtle but important ways. For example, if you compare the slope of the front of the light the actual part is much more vertical than what's seen in the renderings. This is clearer in the side views than the front 3/4 view. So although the lights look like Subie lights, those lights won't look the same and may not work well. So we can't reuse those lights from the donor without significant changes to the front.

StatGSR

08-18-2011, 08:42 AM

^ that's what i figured, not to mention it would be silly to design a car around some headlights that the vast majority of people wont even get with their donor car to begin with. (i doubt that many people will end up with 06-07 imprezas for this build)

Ditch the idea of donor headlights!!!!! im still all about a custom hella configuration with a cover

thebeerbaron

08-18-2011, 10:29 AM

I always thought the headlights on the Xabier front 3/4 view looked a little...off. Now I know why. Very interesting!

One more question, as I struggle to remove the spark plugs from my donor. (there's about two inches of clearance between the valve cover and the frame rail!)

Are questions like hood/door/trunk openings being considered at this stage? There are character lines in each sketch, but are panels being decided on? Because it would be really, really, really awesome if this car had access like this...

http://medias.forum-auto.com/uploads/200307/kryogen_2411200235_cia.jpg

My back thanks you in advance for making access easy!

And thanks for putting up with the relentless stream of questions!

Silvertop

08-18-2011, 11:29 AM

Ks2

08-18-2011, 04:37 PM

i thought he had a few versions of the design that used a more generic aftermarket design (i know the race version did) still looked good either way

Ks2

08-18-2011, 06:07 PM

double post

Michael Lye

08-20-2011, 09:34 AM

Are questions like hood/door/trunk openings being considered at this stage? There are character lines in each sketch, but are panels being decided on? Because it would be really, really, really awesome if this car had access like this...

http://medias.forum-auto.com/uploads/200307/kryogen_2411200235_cia.jpg

My back thanks you in advance for making access easy!

And thanks for putting up with the relentless stream of questions!

The different openings are being considered now. The shut lines - the gaps between different body panels, for example around the hood/door/trunk opening - have a pretty big impact on the perception of the form of a car as well as on its 'personality' or 'essence.' The shut lines serve as a kind of a contour drawing that helps to define surfaces and character. Saab front ends look different partly due to the hood shut lines being moved to the sides (fenders) by the clam shell hood. From an assembly point of view, the different body panels that create the shut lines, also make alignment much more challenging. Does anyone remember the ads that a manufacturer ran showing a steel ball rolling along the hood shut lines of their car to demonstrate how perfectly uniform the gaps were? This uniformity is one way we perceive build quality in vehicles. With fiberglas it's possible to produce bodies with very few shut lines. The Lotus Europa has only 4 panels aside from the main body molding, the two doors, the hood and the rear deck lid. Most metal bodied cars require many more panels and so have more shut lines that provide detail to the surface. From FFR's perspective I suspect making more smaller panels would be easier and cheaper than a large complex mold to produce a one-piece body but it would mean more work during assembly. The smaller panels might look more interesting, but would the drawbacks be worth it? Just for my own curiosity, what would all of you prefer?

As far as access to the mechanicals on this car, there hasn't been a final decision on the openings made yet. But I hear you about your back. If you've ever worked in the engine bay of a GT-6, it's pretty nice to just sit down on the top of a tire while you work.

No problem with the questions. I'm glad there's enough interest to keep the thread going.

slopoke

08-20-2011, 10:11 AM

pics would help ... sorry, couldn't resist

thebeerbaron

08-20-2011, 11:45 AM

What would I prefer, more panels or fewer?

More Panels
Pro: Cheaper to replace after damage
Con: More panels to line up
Con: More fasteners to fasten
Con: More panels to exchange if you switch between body styles at home
Unknown: Lighter weight? Don't know if smaller panels require less material/weight to self-support
Unknown: Easier/Cheaper for FFR to produce?
Unknown: Effect of shut lines on body aesthetics

Fewer Panels
Pro: Potential for easier access, depending on design
Pro: Easier to change body style if you buy more than one kit
Con: big, heavy pivots to achieve good access, or unsightly (to some) quick-release fasteners (quick-releases may be expensive)
Con: Expensive to replace
Con: Must replace entire panel for small damage (ala Elise front clamshell)
Con: Panels must be self-supporting, likely heavy
Unknown: Higher chances for moulding flaws (I think Dave said something about this)
Unknown: Effect of shut lines on body aesthetics

To be honest, I think it's going to depend on the design. I think the Olmos design would probably look best with more panel lines than fewer. I think Xabier's design is going to require fewer panels to maintain its look. And I still haven't seen enough pictures of the Bansasi design to have any clue what it looks like. But from what I can see, I think it'll do well with more panels.

Looking over the winners again, I'm back to that underwhelmed feeling I got at the Open House reveal. Please tell me dark-horse candidate #4 will kick ***.

Until then, I'll say: more panels, with serious thought given to their removability for access.

blueafro

08-20-2011, 02:10 PM

From FFR's perspective I suspect making more smaller panels would be easier and cheaper than a large complex mold to produce a one-piece body but it would mean more work during assembly. The smaller panels might look more interesting, but would the drawbacks be worth it? Just for my own curiosity, what would all of you prefer?

Unfortunately, fiberglass is typically expensive to repair, and small production body panels are typically expensive. The huge expense of repairing the Lotus Elise/Exige when it takes clamshell damage, which has sometimes led to cars with minimum structural damage being totaled by insurance companies based on body repair/replacement costs alone, would point to smaller panels being much more practical for the owner of a small production car, regardless of how they end up looking.

I've lost track of the number of people who've told me they can or do afford an Elise to drive on the street but drive something else for track days because they cannot afford to wreck a Lotus on a track. Even for street driving, you're a lot less likely to break a bumper/lower valence, hood, and both front fenders than you are to break a single front clamshell, and the same goes for the rear.

The Beer Baron's point about access shouldn't be ignored, however, but is there any reason a multipanel design couldn't be engineered for quick access? The third generation MR2 was; most body panels unbolt easily in a few minutes.

Silvertop

08-22-2011, 11:24 AM

What would I prefer, more panels or fewer?............

To be honest, I think it's going to depend on the design. I think the Olmos design would probably look best with more panel lines than fewer. I think Xabier's design is going to require fewer panels to maintain its look. And I still haven't seen enough pictures of the Bansasi design to have any clue what it looks like. But from what I can see, I think it'll do well with more panels......

Until then, I'll say: more panels, with serious thought given to their removability for access.

I think BeerBaron did a nice job of laying out the pros and cons of multiple panels vs. fewer panels.

Years ago (more than I care to count), I owned an early-model Saab Sonett V4 which had a one-piece clamshell type front end. The fiberglass front end was by necessity thicker than the rest of the body, so I'm sure it was also a good deal heavier than the rest. It was great for access to the mechanicals, though. Just flip the whole front body assembly forward, plant your backside on top one or the other of the front tires, and go to work. Built-in place to sit........... I glad I never crashed it, because if I had, I'm sure major damage would have resulted in a total loss. Particularly since they only made a couple of thousand of those, so body parts were expensive, and not readily available at any price. Incidentally, the front end was held down by a pair of rather crude-looking heavy black rubber bungies, suggesting to some folks that it was in fact a kit car rather than a manufactured one. The later version of the Sonett -- the Sonett III -- had much smaller panels, but also had a tiny hinged hood that made drivetrain access difficult. The Sonett III was probably better looking, and more sophisticated (certainly more modern) but to me it lacked the panache of the original (I know, I'm rambling, that's not really relevant to the discussion..).

Kinda need to agree with BeerBaron -- smaller panels would probably be more desirable from the owner's perspective, even if access is somewhat lessened, and even if it created more work in the assembly process. And it seems to me also that the car could be lighter with smaller panels -- assuming that the large panel configuration employs large hinged pieces. If designed for easy removal, the access penalty imposed by the smaller panels could be minimized.

I'm guessing that it will ultimately come down to production costs, though FFR is definitely going to be concerned about weight as well.

PhyrraM

08-22-2011, 01:34 PM

+1 for smaller panels. I would think that quality control would be better on smaller molds too. I've read some nasty things about warp and twist on the large clamshell moldings. As odd as it may sound, I think panels gaps could be better controlled with more, but smaller and higher quality, panels.

BrandonDrums

08-22-2011, 06:46 PM

The different openings are being considered now. The shut lines - the gaps between different body panels, for example around the hood/door/trunk opening - have a pretty big impact on the perception of the form of a car as well as on its 'personality' or 'essence.' The shut lines serve as a kind of a contour drawing that helps to define surfaces and character. Saab front ends look different partly due to the hood shut lines being moved to the sides (fenders) by the clam shell hood. From an assembly point of view, the different body panels that create the shut lines, also make alignment much more challenging. Does anyone remember the ads that a manufacturer ran showing a steel ball rolling along the hood shut lines of their car to demonstrate how perfectly uniform the gaps were? This uniformity is one way we perceive build quality in vehicles. With fiberglas it's possible to produce bodies with very few shut lines. The Lotus Europa has only 4 panels aside from the main body molding, the two doors, the hood and the rear deck lid. Most metal bodied cars require many more panels and so have more shut lines that provide detail to the surface. From FFR's perspective I suspect making more smaller panels would be easier and cheaper than a large complex mold to produce a one-piece body but it would mean more work during assembly. The smaller panels might look more interesting, but would the drawbacks be worth it? Just for my own curiosity, what would all of you prefer?

As far as access to the mechanicals on this car, there hasn't been a final decision on the openings made yet. But I hear you about your back. If you've ever worked in the engine bay of a GT-6, it's pretty nice to just sit down on the top of a tire while you work.

No problem with the questions. I'm glad there's enough interest to keep the thread going.

Considering how interesting Michael's question is, I decided to make a formal poll here http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3178-Quick-Poll-for-Michael-Lye

I wanted to post a poll within this thread because I don't want to hijack the conversation from this one but apparently you can't make a poll without starting a new thread. It would be great if we can all vote but keep the conversation here forDave, Michael & team!

Thanks!

David

08-22-2011, 09:23 PM

olpro

08-22-2011, 09:47 PM

thebeerbaron

08-22-2011, 10:37 PM

kach22i

08-23-2011, 08:42 AM

Dynoc,
It's great to have experience, thank you for sharing.

Is Dynoc the non-trademark name for 3M Di-noc film?

olpro

08-23-2011, 10:16 AM

Spelling is not a strong point for me. Sorry about that.
http://www.cardesignnews.com/site/home/display/store4/item78128/
There also is a spray "peel off" paint that can be overcoated with color, yet later cleaned off for clay modifications.

olpro

08-23-2011, 10:29 AM

>> Perhaps my engineering-ish analysis was off base, but this is all idle chat. I stand by my explanation of which designs I think would look better with various panel counts.<<

Beerbaron,
Actually, your analysis (post #84) is very good and probably advanced the understanding of the issue for the RISD team.

BrandonDrums

08-23-2011, 01:32 PM

I don’t get this entire subject about panel size. FFR has a tooling & production capability for this project, undoubtedly based on their previous efforts and experience. That is going to inform them as to how to proceed. Whether a bunch of readers on this forum prefer big panels or little ones is kind of beside the point. Yes, there is a trade off on initial cost vs repair cost. Duh, of course everyone will want low initial cost AND cheap repair costs. Sorry, it can’t always be done.

I am not questioning the curiosity about panel breakdown, but a POLL?

I am a little surprised by Michael’s comments on this issue. OF COURSE the panel lines are a big part of the design. So what else is new?

I just hope he has access to some Dynoc film so they can put color on the clays and evaluate them without painting (Dynoc is standard in the industry & has been for many decades because of the redo capability).
Lacking Dynoc, they can always spray the clay with water, squeegee on some black garbage bag film, slather on some Johnson’s Baby Oil and read the high lights pretty well. Still it is important to tape the glass black and map-tape on the cut lines. Mockups of lamps are not that hard to do either. The more the complete the model is for evaluation the better. All these elements are integral parts of a design and it is basic to take them into account.

I agree, the poll is a bit much for what I took as an off-the-cuff (and completely non-binding) question from Michael. That's best discussed in the poll thread though and to each her own.

Given the context, I would assume (and yes, that makes an *** of me) that Michael is looking for a general feel, rather than a specific number: an aesthetic decision. Perhaps my engineering-ish analysis was off base, but this is all idle chat. I stand by my explanation of which designs I think would look better with various panel counts.

As far as Michael's comments, remember that though you may be an OlPro, the rest of us are not. I had not considered panel counts and shut lines too carefully in my examination of the winning entries. The idea of trading off more or fewer lines as an aesthetic decision had not crossed my mind. It was an interesting topic to bring up and contemplate, and for that I'm appreciative.

Jeez, it's not that big of a deal guys. Many other forums allow for quick polls to be posted within a thread, this one does not. I didn't mean to offend anyone with trying to offer some quick constructive organization to a simple question I found particularly interesting. Posting that quick poll was one of the first things I've done on this forum for quite some time. In retrospect, I know why I haven't been active.

2 reasons:
1) Not a lot of action and updates going on here lately. This particular thread is by far the most exciting and interesting one in a good little while.
2) This forum has graduated into the level of community experience of much older forums; The same guys posting every day claiming they know everything and perhaps too quick to flame out other members if they aren't in the know like them.

A poll is just a neat little way to track and talley a groups feelings and/or opinions when there are limited and specific choices for a particular query at hand. It's not overkill, it's just convenient. Even if Michael is just looking for a general feel of our opinions, a quick poll makes that quite easy to accomplish vs. just reading through pages of Olpro's many comments about what he thinks about every little thing in between actual AND concise answers to the question the Official FFR designer posed to our community.

Like it or not, I'm in this thread to hear Dave and Mikes input and participate in their interest in us as a whole. After reading your posts every day for the last few months, I'm fairly confident I have a feel of your opinions at this point, as for Dave and Michael, we don't get the blessing of their involvement quite as often.

Let's chill out guys, don't give people a hard time when they actually try to contribute something other than generalized assumptions and criticism of other member's comments...I was only trying to help our little community here.

BTW, thanks for voting everyone!

thebeerbaron

08-23-2011, 01:40 PM

Jeez, it's not that big of a deal guys.

Hence the "to each her own".

thebeerbaron

08-23-2011, 01:53 PM

To divert this thread around the threadjack....

I was wondering this morning if more panels would make it easier or harder to paint the car - do any of you who've been through the painting process know if it's easier for the shop to paint ten small panels or four large ones? I assume easier means cheaper, but maybe not.

I'm thinking that hanging ten panels in the spray booth and being able to cover a single panel with just a few simple movements would be fewer painter-hours than dancing around a large front clamshell, then a rear clamshell, and the like. Maybe it would even get you better results.

Again, not exactly an aesthetic decision, but perhaps an important one.

kach22i

08-23-2011, 02:25 PM

I'm thinking that hanging ten panels in the spray booth and being able to cover a single panel with just a few simple movements would be fewer painter-hours than dancing around a large front clamshell, then a rear clamshell, and the like. Maybe it would even get you better results.

I cannot claim to know about professional painting. I do know a guy with an old Porsche 356 Speedster which took a hit. The insurance company wanted to do a touch up of the damage, but their were no joints or stopping points in the panels. They ended up painting the whole car, the owner insisted on it. To make the best of it, the insurance company featured the car in their magazine as a feel good story.

Michael Lye

08-23-2011, 08:38 PM

Boy, I get busy and don't log on for a bit and return to find things have been quite busy here!

I don’t get this entire subject about panel size. FFR has a tooling & production capability for this project, undoubtedly based on their previous efforts and experience. That is going to inform them as to how to proceed. Whether a bunch of readers on this forum prefer big panels or little ones is kind of beside the point.
Olpro, you're right of course that FFR has capabilities that will determine how they go about producing any new vehicles. That doesn't mean they might not consider expanding on those capabilities, or trying new approaches. That is just my thinking and NOT anything official from FFR, though. But from what I know from Dave and crew, they are actually quite interested in what "a bunch of readers on this forum" think. By no means does this suggest that they will alter any plans for future production of course, but I thought it was an interesting question to see how the folks on this forum thought about the trade-offs between one big molding or several smaller ones.

Yes, there is a trade off on initial cost vs repair cost.
I was really more curious about the assembly tradeoffs and how they would be viewed here. The Elise comes pre-assembled as do most other cars we buy so this is a bit different situation. And while I've done plenty of fiberglas work, I've never built-up a Factory Five (yet!) So my curiosity was aroused.

I am a little surprised by Michael’s comments on this issue. OF COURSE the panel lines are a big part of the design. So what else is new?
Don't be too surprised. I didn't suggest this was news to me but thought this might be an interesting place to talk about these issues - especially since BeerBaron's question touched directly on that. As he says later, not everyone is as aware about these things and this seemed like an interesting topic to raise and discuss.

It was an off-the-cuff question that I thought might get some interesting responses and discussion going I'm glad to see that was successful.

Michael Lye

08-23-2011, 08:47 PM

I agree, the poll is a bit much for what I took as an off-the-cuff (and completely non-binding) question from Michael. Yes, it was intended as a completely non-binding question. While I may occasionally make comments to Dave and company, they're the ones making the decisions.

Given the context, I would assume (and yes, that makes an *** of me) that Michael is looking for a general feel, rather than a specific number: an aesthetic decision. Perhaps my engineering-ish analysis was off base, but this is all idle chat. I stand by my explanation of which designs I think would look better with various panel counts. I thought your analysis was on base and interesting. No I'm not looking for particulars just wanted to see how everyone thought about these things - if they had a choice.

Michael Lye

08-23-2011, 08:57 PM

Beerbaron,
Actually, your analysis (post #84) is very good and probably advanced the understanding of the issue for the RISD team.
Well, it certainly helped me understand how Beerbaron is thinking. How about you, olpro? If you were to build the 818, would you have a preference for a very few large moldings or a greater number of smaller panels even if that made assembly more challenging or had other drawbacks? This, of course assumes that you might have that choice at some point in the future. But purely hypothetically what are your thoughts on the assembly side of the question?

Again, Dave and crew will make up their own minds based on the best approach for FFR, but as there are always trade-offs, how would you make the decision?

olpro

08-23-2011, 09:02 PM

Any thoughts on the Di-noc?

Michael, I just saw your last post about panel size. If I were a consultant to FFR I would advise them to capitalize on their expertise gained on previous projects rather than trying anything radically new (to them) ON TOP of the challenges of developing a completely new product. Of course the issue of a gel coat finish (not needing paint) could be a big factor and panel size might impact the resulting quality. A high scrap rate and/or excess labor requirements will kill their cost targets fast.

thebeerbaron

08-23-2011, 09:28 PM

Boy, I get busy and don't log on for a bit and return to find things have been quite busy here!

To paraphrase Hunter Thompson... One of the things you learn from years of dealing with forum people, is that you can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a forum. Especially when it's waving razor-sharp criticism in your eye.

This place is ravenous for information about the 818. It ebbs and flows a bit, but the slightest rumor or innuendo can really set it off. Your presence here seems to have taken some of the heat off Dave for which I'm sure he's much appreciative. Don't be a stranger for too long, or you may find the forum in true revolt... :)

I was really more curious about the assembly tradeoffs and how they would be viewed here. The Elise comes pre-assembled as do most other cars we buy so this is a bit different situation. And while I've done plenty of fiberglas work, I've never built-up a Factory Five (yet!) So my curiosity was aroused.

A man who owns a 35+ year old Lotus knows something about fiberglas work? Color me surprised. A nice, British Racing Green shade of surprised.

I don't know how Factory Five mounts their fiberglas panels to the bodywork, whether you have to line up the panel, clamp it in place, then drill through mounting tab and fiberglass at the same time and perfectly plumb in order to get the alignment right, or whether there's some mechanism for adjusting fit after drilling. I imagine I can find out. I don't know which would win out - my impatience to get everything drilled and mounted so I could drive the damn thing, or my desire to get it right the first time. If it were a million panels that I had to line up precisely, all at the same time, and keep in alignment while I drilled ten million perfect mounting holes, I can see that being a problem. If it were something were I could slap the panels on in a mostly-aligned fashion, fire it up, sort it out, then come back and make it beautiful, that would go a long way towards tolerating a high panel count.

I also wonder what quick release fasteners like dzus do to panel alignments - are the tolerances with something like a dzus fastener good enough to look right or are they only for track cars that have to look good at 50 feet and 50mph? Not every panel needs to be removable, but there will be some that I won't want to rivet. It would be a shame to have to choose between even panel gaps and removing the bones from my left arm so that I can reach certain engine fittings...

Michael Lye

08-23-2011, 09:34 PM

...the question the Official FFR designer posed to our community. Thanks for the promotion! Really I'm just "the man behind the modeling effort of the 818" but more specifically I'm just the guy leading a team of modelers to bring Xabier's renderings into 3D. Hopefully we'll do that well enough to capture what everyone liked about Xabier's work.

thebeerbaron

08-23-2011, 09:44 PM

Interesting to note that for the Roadster, the body ships in place over the frame, and four people (http://mk4build.com/manual/doku.php?id=inspection#body_removal) are recommended to remove it from the frame after delivery. Also, a wooden buck is necessary to store the body while work progresses on the rest of the car.

Thoughts are that shipping a single large body piece bolted to a frame is a great way to save space (especially for a kit which has a goal of shipping globally in quantity), but that once at the shop it requires more than just your "hold my beer" buddy to move around, as well as considerable storage space. Maybe I'm just a little worried about how much garage space my project will take up, but I imagine for customers who might be building this in countries with smaller garages than we typically enjoy in the US, this could be an issue. A stack of rectangular boxes can go up in a loft quite easily. A full-size shell not so much. Also, cardboard boxes provide a modicum of protection against gelcoat-damaging shop accidents during the rest of the build.

Looks like the Roadster comes with the mounting points for the main body piece pre-drilled and bolted, with adjustability provided there. Wonder what the GTM and '33 do... More digging necessary.

kitcarj

08-23-2011, 10:01 PM

I don't know if color consistency is difficult when doing the gel coat process but that could be a problem with lots of panels.

thebeerbaron

08-23-2011, 10:09 PM

I don't know if color consistency is difficult when doing the gel coat process but that could be a problem with lots of panels.

Or perhaps a feature:

http://pedrosboard.com/addon.php?7,module=embed_images,url=http%3A%2F%2Fc ache.jalopnik.com%2Fassets%2Fresources%2F2008%2F03 %2FVW_Harlequin_Golf.jpg

thebeerbaron

08-23-2011, 10:51 PM

Michael - would it be possible for you to share more views of the winning submissions? I'm sure you've got far more pictures than we've seen around these parts. Even just a few more would be very interesting. I still have zero idea what the winning design actually looks like, other than the left-rear corner.

I just saw the side view of the Xabier race car again and thought "man, that could look really ugly from the front and we'd never know it".

thebeerbaron

08-23-2011, 10:52 PM

And now I'm going to put away the laptop and go to sleep. This post-fest is what happens when the pottery studio closes for the summer!

bobzdar

08-24-2011, 01:43 PM

I don't think assembly complexity will be a problem either way - assembling the rest of the car will be more complex than hanging body panels, even accounting for alignment if necessary. I would vote for whatever is lightest, which is tough to tell. Individual panels will be lighter but will probably require more provisions for mounting and more hardware which could negate the weight difference...

One other benefit to individual panels would be the possibility of using CF as an extra cost option (looking at the track model here) which would be much more difficult to do with a tub and front/rear clip mold.

2KWIK4U

08-24-2011, 01:51 PM

Or perhaps a feature:

http://pedrosboard.com/addon.php?7,module=embed_images,url=http%3A%2F%2Fc ache.jalopnik.com%2Fassets%2Fresources%2F2008%2F03 %2FVW_Harlequin_Golf.jpg

WOW I hope it doesn't look like that. :)

RM1SepEx

08-24-2011, 04:36 PM

imom

08-24-2011, 07:45 PM

I have a M roadster, and that car, besides the hood...have smaller body components. It's actually nice because of all that have already discussed with repair, but I see from reading silently with these threads is that original intent is to make this car a swatch... and the ability to swap and replace. Having smaller parts will also offer the opportunity for either the advance hobbyist or pro to make their own custom body panels as aftermarket add ons... Having one large or a few large body panels and that makes it extremely more difficult. Even if someone knew how to make carbon fiber body panels...only someone with a big garage and big oven and such to make such modification or aftermarket goodies possible. Having smaller body panels and even the home garage kings can have the small and less equipment to make mods or new parts.

My car besides the hood and trunk have about 10 or 12 body panels. Making few body panels...I"m not sure what kind of tolerances on the frame is required to make it still line up without problems. I can also see shipping replacement body panels be cheaper. I'm only guessing as I'm new to this forum, but to get replacement GTM body panels...I can only guess it's costly.

Really looking forward to see the models and helping decide on what car next to get in the very near future.

Michael Lye

08-24-2011, 08:58 PM

Michael - would it be possible for you to share more views of the winning submissions? I'm sure you've got far more pictures than we've seen around these parts. Even just a few more would be very interesting. I still have zero idea what the winning design actually looks like, other than the left-rear cornerI'm afraid we'll have to wait for Dave (and helpers) to post the additional images. I don't know what concerns they need to address before releasing any additional images. I don't want to get out in front of what they want to do. Sorry but I'm sure Dave will get them posted.

thebeerbaron

08-24-2011, 09:16 PM

Understood, thanks.

Silvertop

08-25-2011, 07:44 AM

I own 1969 Sonett V4 #1243, they made 1600 plus before the Sonett III restyle. The front clip is very heavy to be stiff and a low speed cruch would basically destroy 1/2 of the body. Access is great to the engine. More smaller pieces makes more sense to me.

My Sonett was also a 1969 model. I don't remember the serial number, but I think it was a bit higher numerically. I wish I still owned it.

Someday I Suppose

08-25-2011, 09:02 AM

Beerbaron,

Just some thoughts on the Roadster body, yes its one piece, except for the hood, trunk and doors. The MKIII bodies could be taken on and off by two people but the way the newer body bolts to the sides might require an added hand or two. On my MKIII I actually had it on and off a number of times by myself with a couple of pulleys. During the bulk of the build I kept the body on a buck that was built to roll over-top of the frame, so when I was working on the car, I would simply roll the body out into the driveway out of the way.

I don't know that even FFR has decided yet on how the panels will line up and attach to the car, but I am assuming they are going to both bolt to one another as well as to the frame.

On paint, more or less panels, the only thing there that sticks out to me is that the painter would want to line the panels up in the same positions as they will be on the car, this is especially true of metallics where the spray pattern may be more evident.

HTH

-Scott

NonProfit

04-13-2012, 12:05 PM

I suspect making more smaller panels would be easier and cheaper than a large complex mold to produce a one-piece body but it would mean more work during assembly. The smaller panels might look more interesting, but would the drawbacks be worth it? Just for my own curiosity, what would all of you prefer?

I understand this post has been around for awhile and it is certainly probable the development of the initial 818 is far enough along that it would not make sense to change it now. However, as a final design has not yet been released, it seems logical to assume work is continuing. I know at least three bodies are considered for this platform, so even if it is too late to change for the first release, I hope this idea might help with future projects.

I think the thebeerbaron's More Panels/Fewer Panels analysis (#84) is great. (Although I happen to believe, when designed properly, the larger panels offer more potential for access as illustrated in the image from #78.)

For the typical car owner, access is of little concern. A large number of owners literally never lift the hood. Another large group may limit themselves to the most routine of maintenance where accessibility is typically not much of an issue. However, anyone who is interested in building their own car is going to have a different agenda. Perhaps it's simply swapping parts as they wear out, others will add with performance gains in mind. Most of us will want to car on the street as soon as possible and many homebuilt vehicles are in a "functional but not complete" state for some time. Even after the driveline and body are installed, nonessential items like HVAC or audio may be installed later. The ability to get to those out-of-the-way places without disassembling what's been completed would be huge. Larger panels seem to better lend themselves to easy access.

However smaller panels will be more likely to isolate damage and will certainly be cheaper to produce, warehouse, and distribute (especially overseas!). Another plus to this modular design is many of us will be building by ourselves and finding four people to lift a tub into place is no simple matter. If a minor damage results in replacement parts which cost thousands of dollars to purchase and ship, many of these cars will die off before their time needs to have come. Can we compromise?

The design in #78 offers full access but this is without a doubt made from multiple smaller pieces. Consider a full-width panel which mounts to the roof and accepts the supporting struts where all of the other panels are attached to it. If all of the connecting pieces were designed to fit securely together, this would alleviate much of the small panel alignment issues. This addresses most of the thebeerbaron's issues, with the obvious exception of a heavy pivot point.

However, I know whatever you release will be great. I can't wait.

olpro

04-13-2012, 05:24 PM

"However, I know whatever you release will be great. I can't wait."
I cringe when I see comments like this. What the heck makes you think that "whatever you release" will be so great. Maybe it will be, but maybe not. How about letting FFR finish their development and then judge it?

NonProfit

04-13-2012, 06:19 PM

What the h### makes you think that "whatever you release" will be so great.

Wow! I'm not someone who strays away from controversy, but never thought my closing remark would ever spark a fight.

But since you asked...
http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/roadsterbodyassembly-694x413.jpg
http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/chassisassembly-694x413.jpg
http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/gtmbody-694x413.jpg

olpro

04-13-2012, 07:27 PM

NonProfit

04-13-2012, 10:02 PM

olpro, none of my comments were for the benefit of the RISD students. Presumably because FFR set up this forum, they monitor it. If they find any value in my comment, I will be pleased. I don't know you, but from this post and the last it appears you have questions as to the ability of FFR to pull off this car. If the 818 doesn't do it for ya, there are thousands of other communities you could become involved with. We all have precious few moments in our life. Don't waste yours getting pissed over NOTHING. There is far too much real pain and suffering in this world to waste your anger on someone who is Pollyannaish on a car that is not even complete. Perhaps you have half a dozen Ferraris in your garage and your wow factor is through the roof. Me, they could wrap the frame in cardboard and I'd be pleased. My advise, when this forum is no longer fun, step away until it is. Peace.

shinn497

04-14-2012, 04:41 AM

Hey,

I for one think as fans of FFR we should support them in their efforts. I'm not saying don't be critical, but also neither overly judgemental. They have a proven track record and are well respected in the industry. It is reasonable to expect them to put out a satisfactory product and at least meet their goals. They are putting significant time and resources behind the 818 project and they are a small company. I think that is unique and admirable.

Of courses...if the 818 turns out to be ugly and not fun I'm not buying one...not saying that will happen though.

kach22i

04-14-2012, 07:43 AM

I think we can all hope for the best.

To go beyond that is a personal risk, but all your really are risking is getting your heart broke by a kit car company, not a girl.

Based on my personal experience with girls, it's gotta hurt less.;)

bromikl

04-14-2012, 09:44 PM

NonProfit, things have been a little slow 'round here lately. Don't take any offense with olpro. Without having any real reason to get agitated, he needs to make one. Much like a junkyard dog that barks at everyone driving past, he doesn't know any better.

Exidous

04-15-2012, 04:06 AM

NonProfit

04-16-2012, 08:20 AM

Thanks bromikl!

sidewinder

04-16-2012, 11:44 AM

RM1SepEx

04-17-2012, 07:00 AM

Although the folks at RISD were primarily students and academics, they represented the potential of getting SOME professional DESIGN input to this project. Ironically your pollyanna post appears in this particular thread, after RISD has been long pulled off this project.

Don't be so sure RISD has been "long pulled off the project"... based on Dave's comments at the open house I'm pretty confident that they had very signifigant input to what we end up seeing as the first design... Who better that F5 has worked with to massage a full sized model?

We know the 1/4 scale models didn't translate to full size well

We know thazt the only full size design that we have seen was the in house design, I watched their in house sculpter work on it when I visited before the open house and that design was scrapped ...

Dave mentioned that they were continueing to work with RISD at the open house and was communicating with Rodney...

puts us right back at a highly flexible engineering design problem... shape, mechanicals, mfg capabilities for the no paint body...

It's easy to see why they are so damn busy and allows this forum to regurgitate on all of the options etc...

I'm just biding my time searching for the best possible donor, glad that I don't have time constraints

But what do I really know, might just have my head stuffed up my own butt!