View Full Version : Headers and Footbox Powder Coat
cv2065
11-17-2018, 01:31 PM
I was just reviewing Shark's build thread and I guess I didn't really realize how close the headers come to the front of the footbox. Does powdercoating have any issues with heat with the headers being that close?
I've been debating whether or not to apply some of this between the headers and the foot box:
https://www.amazon.com/Heatshield-Products-770002-Shield-Adhesive/dp/B0055BY0MS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1542489362&sr=8-3&keywords=lava+heat+shield
Jeff Kleiner
11-17-2018, 04:54 PM
I've has a lot of cars pass through here with powder coated footbox metal and can't recall ever seeing any that were affected by header heat.
Jeff
cv2065
11-17-2018, 07:30 PM
I've been debating whether or not to apply some of this between the headers and the foot box:
https://www.amazon.com/Heatshield-Products-770002-Shield-Adhesive/dp/B0055BY0MS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1542489362&sr=8-3&keywords=lava+heat+shield
Thanks Dave. This is what I have:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00029KC2K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Thanks Dave. This is what I have:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00029KC2K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
How's the adhesive on that product? Do you think it will stay put after being exposed to heat and water?
cv2065
11-17-2018, 07:36 PM
I've has a lot of cars pass through here with powder coated footbox metal and can't recall ever seeing any that were affected by header heat.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff. I'm sure you've seen a ton of them! Based on that, I may just line the inside of the box with additional heat shield to keep the outside clean if the powdercoat is good to go. This stuff is pretty thin and goes over the Thermo Tec nicely. Just don't breathe in the fibers...:eek:
BadAsp427
11-17-2018, 07:42 PM
As I posted in my post about the heat on my headers and side pipes. Even with my headers 1/2" away from the front corner of the drivers foot-box, There is not even as much as a discoloration of the white powder coat from that cherry red header episode. FWIW
Thanks Jeff. I'm sure you've seen a ton of them! Based on that, I may just line the inside of the box with additional heat shield to keep the outside clean if the powdercoat is good to go. This stuff is pretty thin and goes over the Thermo Tec nicely. Just don't breathe in the fibers...:eek:
I'm looking for something to mount on the outside of the footbox where one of my header tubes gets really close; less than 1/4" away at the corner. So, I'm looking to have about a 6" - 8" square piece of heat shield material that can stick in place.
BadAsp427
11-17-2018, 07:46 PM
I'm looking for something to mount on the outside of the footbox where one of my header tubes gets really close; less than 1/4" away at the corner. So, I'm looking to have about a 6" - 8" square piece of heat shield material that can stick in place.
Dave, you are doing some powder coating right? What temp do you bake it at? The reason I ask, the day I cooked my headers (LOL) I put the laser temp gauge on both the inside and outside of my foot box and it was at 275* or so... If your baking at a higher temp than that, that may be something to consider in the ability of the Powder Coat to withstand.
cv2065
11-17-2018, 07:47 PM
How's the adhesive on that product? Do you think it will stay put after being exposed to heat and water?
Not sure about water, but I can tell you that I just pulled a piece off of the Thermotec to trim it up a bit and was pretty difficult to get off. Started disintegrating into those fibers. So if it were stuck to aluminum, I'm sure it would stick really well.
cv2065
11-17-2018, 07:48 PM
Dave, you are doing some powder coating right? What temp do you bake it at? The reason I ask, the day I cooked my headers (LOL) I put the laser temp gauge on both the inside and outside of my foot box and it was at 275* or so... If your baking at a higher temp than that, that may be something to consider in the ability of the Powder Coat to withstand.
If I remember correctly, baking temp for PC is about 400 degrees or better.
Dave, you are doing some powder coating right? What temp do you bake it at? The reason I ask, the day I cooked my headers (LOL) I put the laser temp gauge on both the inside and outside of my foot box and it was at 275* or so... If your baking at a higher temp than that, that may be something to consider in the ability of the Powder Coat to withstand.
Not sure about water, but I can tell you that I just pulled a piece off of the Thermotec to trim it up a bit and was pretty difficult to get off. Started disintegrating into those fibers. So if it were stuck to aluminum, I'm sure it would stick really well.
Thanks guys. My foot box panels are not powder coated, but sprayed with a rattle can bed liner. I don't want to find out what its temperature tolerance is. :)
John T
11-17-2018, 09:22 PM
I know that you are talking about the footboy powder coating, but have any of you powder coated the side pipes?
I know that you are talking about the footboy powder coating, but have any of you powder coated the side pipes?
John,
Ceramic is the only coating I would recommend on the side pipes.
Dave
steno
11-17-2018, 09:45 PM
Yup... Ceramic is the way to go!
coyobra
11-17-2018, 09:52 PM
I'm looking for something to mount on the outside of the footbox where one of my header tubes gets really close; less than 1/4" away at the corner. So, I'm looking to have about a 6" - 8" square piece of heat shield material that can stick in place.
I was thinking of the same thing. I will either find some kind of heat shield wrap/tape or fabricate a piece of metal or aluminium to protect that area.
boat737
11-17-2018, 10:16 PM
I'm looking for something to mount on the outside of the footbox where one of my header tubes gets really close; less than 1/4" away at the corner. So, I'm looking to have about a 6" - 8" square piece of heat shield material that can stick in place.
I made some aluminum (powder coated) stand-off panels. Mounted them on the front side of the footboxes, and on the inside surfaces next to the headers. On the drivers side it was pretty tight, so instead of the 3/8 inch standoff's, I just spaced it out the width of the silicone rubber washer plus the stainless fender washer (the orange ones. Supposed to be high temperature resistant.). So on that panel there is only 1/16-3/32 air gap.
I was thinking of the same thing. I will either find some kind of heat shield wrap/tape or fabricate a piece of metal or aluminium to protect that area.
Definitely another option - just wrap the header in the area.
cv2065
11-18-2018, 12:40 AM
Thanks guys. My foot box panels are not powder coated, but sprayed with a rattle can bed liner. I don't want to find out what its temperature tolerance is. :)
Hey Dave. I looked up the tech data sheet for the Rustoleum Bedliner. You can find it here.
https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/DigitalEncyclopedia/Documents/RustoleumUSA/TDS/English/CBG/Automotive/ATO-102_Automotive_Truck_Bed_Coating_TDS.ashx
Looks like ‘Dry Heat Resistance’ is set at 200 degrees.
edwardb
11-18-2018, 07:13 AM
Sure lots of forum bandwidth on the heated footbox topic, heat from the headers, etc. Lots of "I burned my feet riding in a Cobra" stories. I've had people express that concern many times when giving them a ride. Was able to assure them it wouldn't be a problem, and it wasn't. Here's my take FWIW. Note these comments assume the engine is running properly with normal temps. Not the thermal event that BadAsp427 reported with glowing headers and burnt pipes.
Real world experience based on multiple seasons, multiple builds, thousands of miles driving: (1) Unless they're physically touching or have very little airspace, headers aren't going to harm powder coat. The typical headers used in these builds (BBK, Coyote 4-into-4's, etc.) all have enough clearance. Can't vouch for paint because I've only used PC. But with any reasonable airspace, the surface temp of the footbox isn't as high as you might think. I've checked mine with an infrared thermometer after a long drive. Was higher than ambient, but not enough to be much of a concern. Note that color can make a difference. Light colors will be cooler than dark ones. (2) If the interior of the footbox is properly insulated, and then carpeted, you won't have any heat issues on the footbox side. I've never used any exterior shields or product, and have never felt any sensation of heat from the footboxes while driving. (3) Air infiltration from the engine compartment into the interior is not your friend. You'll feel heat from this before anything else. Make sure the footboxes are sealed, and the gap between the body and the footboxes (behind the door hinges) is 100% sealed. You'll know it if they're not. IMO, many builders don't do a good job with this and diagnose heat in the cockpit incorrectly. (4) Fresh air into the footboxes is a good thing and seems to help, although I haven't extensively driven without. Note I'm using scoops and air from the transmission tunnel. Not powered vents. (5) On longer cruises and trips, we wear out from that big yellow ball in the sky way before any heat from the car.
BadAsp427
11-18-2018, 07:21 AM
Note these comments assume the engine is running properly with normal temps. Not the thermal event that BadAsp427 reported with glowing headers and burnt pipes.
Oh sure... you had to go there!!!
edwardb
11-18-2018, 07:25 AM
Oh sure... you had to go there!!!
Sorry. :( Didn't mean to open a fresh wound. Really feel bad about that one actually. Very unfortunate IMO that your engine builder gave you a running engine that allowed it to happen.
BadAsp427
11-18-2018, 07:47 AM
Sorry. :( Didn't mean to open a fresh wound. Really feel bad about that one actually. Very unfortunate IMO that your engine builder gave you a running engine that allowed it to happen.
It's all good.... Nothing hurt except a melted throttle cable and a good set of BBK headers... When it is all said and done, it was a matter of me having forgot more than many will ever know when it comes to engine timing. I had removed the vacuum advance in preparation of doing my timing check and then ran the 2000 RPM lube cycle. If I had left the vacuum advance on, I would have had no issues during the 2000 RPM run. Fortunately I have a custom set of headers in the works and I'm hoping I can polish the side pipes back to silver... and who knows, by the time I get to paint next summer/fall perhaps I'll be ready to buy some GasN side pipes to put on after paint. Right now, I just want to have some fun and get to know the car.
Here is the clearance concern I have between the header and the corner of the driver's foot box.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=97685&d=1542556729
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=97684&d=1542556717
rich grsc
11-18-2018, 08:39 PM
I would have no issues at all with the clearance.
SSNK4US
11-18-2018, 09:49 PM
Dave my 2¢ is that may be a little close for 200 degree rated bed liner. I haven’t even started my build but just looking at that situation makes me go hmmmm in general. But on the other side of the coin rated at 200 degrees doesn’t mean it won’t withstand more heat right? Under promise over deliver? Worse case it bubbles then you recoat that area and then think of an insulation solution? IF it’s even an issue.
Kurt
edwardb
11-18-2018, 10:48 PM
I would have no issues at all with the clearance.
Hey Rich. I agree. That corner clearance isn't an issue. I would however take a look at those spark plug wires and boots. Pretty close to the hottest part of the headers. There are insulators made for those that might be a good idea.
I ordered a roll of Titanium Lava wrap. I'll see what that looks like in the tight area. If I can wrap it and still have a bit of an air gap, I'll go with it. On the spark plug wires, they are silicone boots and I have them fixed at the front of the holder to keep them from moving. I think I'll be okay there. I do have a set of insulators, but they are a PITA to get over the boots, so I've resisted adding them.
AC Bill
11-19-2018, 03:52 AM
DEI reflective heat tape, could be added to the areas of concern. It can really withstand high heat, without peeling.
https://www.autopartsway.ca/part.cfm?010408/d40&g=1&gclid=eaiaiqobchmiyzpepyjg3givxrx9ch3zkqqdeaqybcab eglbepd-bwe
You can also purchase the DEI product in sheets.
http://designengineering.com/reflect-a-cool-heat-reflective-sheets/
BadAsp427
11-19-2018, 06:51 PM
I ordered a roll of Titanium Lava wrap. I'll see what that looks like in the tight area. If I can wrap it and still have a bit of an air gap, I'll go with it. On the spark plug wires, they are silicone boots and I have them fixed at the front of the holder to keep them from moving. I think I'll be okay there. I do have a set of insulators, but they are a PITA to get over the boots, so I've resisted adding them.
Plug wires after my 10 min extra hot episode... Blue Print Engines sent me a set of wires that have a 45* turn right off the plug to keep them away from the headers... I had them pulled away from the headers the best I could and they are still way too close... this is only a problem on the drivers side as the plug wires basically have to come out and cross over the top of the headers whereas on the passenger side they are in line with the headers...
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